Did Ali and Holmes have True Granite Chins

[TIGEREDGE]

or did they rely on great survival instincts when hurt?

Both were down a several times,

[BlackWater]

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[teeto]

Very very good chins, depends on what you class as granite, but that word is maybe a push too far for me. It will always take big punches from big punchers to fell them though, and both have recuperative powers of the highest order, and were warriors.

[Bokaj]

Both I've would say. Tyson, for example, might have had a better chin than both, but when he got hurt he stayed hurt, and that's a crucial difference.

The punches that landed on Ali was seldom as bad as they looked since he was really adept at rolling with them. Guys like Frazier and Tyson, that always came forward, had harder to this and therefore the punches had a greater effect on them.

[DamonD]

The thing with Larry is not so much that he had a granite chin, though it was a good one, but that he had outstanding recuperative powers. I can't think of anyone apart from Ruddock since then that had that kind of get-up-from-a-scary-punch ability.

[CottoDaBodykill]

i totally agree with damon ... another fighter who seems to get up from shocking punches would be chris byrd

[abraq]

Got doubts?

Ali took the punches of Liston, Williams(?), Patterson, Bonavena, Frazier, Mac Foster, Bob Foster (I am including his name here since certain people - read Frazier 'unreasonables' - tout him big in their attempts to show that Frazier took on big punchers), Norton, Foreman, Lyle and Shavers. When a shaky old man, he went the full distance with Trevor Berbick and into the eleventh round with Larry Holmes. He had his jaw broken in the second round of the first Norton fight. He not only survived the full course of the fight but gave a very good account of himself through the remainder of the fight against an all-time top 25 fighter. He let the most powerful puncher of all time, who was then in his prime, hit him and punch himself out.

Holmes fought Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Weaver, Witherspoon, Smith, Tyson, Holyfield, Mercer and McCall. He beat most of them and except for Tyson, who was in his absolute prime, lasted the full course with the others. Come to think of it, he was decisioned only by Holyfield (when aged 42) and McCall (when aged 45) out of the rest. He tended to go down sometimes, but always got back up to put on a hell of a show.

[Privatejoker]

Both had great chins, but Ali had a better chin than Holmes.

Don't bring up the Banks and Cooper fights when Ali was 20-21 and 201 pounds.

Ali in his prime had a granite chin. Only Frazier in the 15th round dropped him.

I don't count that Wepner knockdown as a true knockdown as Chuck stepped on Ali's foot. Ali was never hurt v Wepner.

Holmes was dropped by total unknowns before he fought Shavers.

A shot Ali took Shavers right hand over and over and never went down.

A PEAK Holmes got dropped by Shavers with one shot.

A prime Holmes was dropped by Snipes with one shot.

Holmes looked more in trouble in those fights than Ali ever did.

When Ali was dropped he got up in a few seconds each time

[zadfrak]

And Holmes had those bad amatuer ko losses to Wells. That never happened to Ali & anyway you slice it, it's still a ko by result.

[he grant]

Joker , Holmes deserves the same early career understanding that you give Ali ... both had great chins and great recooperative powers ... maybe Ali is slightly higher, maybe just a touch ...

[Maxmomer]

Ali took punches from Liston, Foreman and Shavers without going down. Liston, Foreman and Shavers is a very reasonable top-3 hardest heavyweight punchers of all time list.

[Muchmoore]

Ali took punches from Liston, Foreman and Shavers without going down. Liston, Foreman and Shavers is a very reasonable top-3 hardest heavyweight punchers of all time list.

Liston barely touched him and Foreman didn't really many clean blows. Shavers did in fact land his big punch and had Ali out on his feet but didn't press for the KO. Keep in mind Ali was dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier, Wepner.

Ali definently has a great chin and deserves to be somewhere in the top ten for that category, but it was his guts and skill as much as his chin that usually saved him. The same goes for Holmes, his toughness/recuperative abilities saved him more than his chin, although his chin also deserves to be in the top 10, 12.

[Bokaj]

Liston barely touched him and Foreman didn't really many clean blows. Shavers did in fact land his big punch and had Ali out on his feet but didn't press for the KO. Keep in mind Ali was dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier, Wepner.

Ali definently has a great chin and deserves to be somewhere in the top ten for that category, but it was his guts and skill as much as his chin that usually saved him. The same goes for Holmes, his toughness/recuperative abilities saved him more than his chin, although his chin also deserves to be in the top 10, 12.

You might be right. So who do you give the nod for the greatest chin? Chuvalo, Mercer, old Foreman, Tyson?

[sugarkills]

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:rofl:rofl:rofl

But as for Ali, yes. He had a GREAT chin.

[TommyV]

no iron not granite ask zakman they are different

[Nick Balsamo]

Very very good chins, depends on what you class as granite, but that word is maybe a push too far for me. It will always take big punches from big punchers to fell them though, and both have recuperative powers of the highest order, and were warriors.


The term "granite" is reserved only for the likes of Chuvalo, Mercer, Hagler, Eubank, etc..

And yeah, Ali & Holmes had true grit, a dominant quality vs strong punchers.

[Bill1234]

Both had great chins, but Ali had a better chin than Holmes.

Don't bring up the Banks and Cooper fights when Ali was 20-21 and 201 pounds.

Ali in his prime had a granite chin. Only Frazier in the 15th round dropped him.

I don't count that Wepner knockdown as a true knockdown as Chuck stepped on Ali's foot. Ali was never hurt v Wepner.

Holmes was dropped by total unknowns before he fought Shavers.

A shot Ali took Shavers right hand over and over and never went down.

A PEAK Holmes got dropped by Shavers with one shot.

A prime Holmes was dropped by Snipes with one shot.

Holmes looked more in trouble in those fights than Ali ever did.

When Ali was dropped he got up in a few seconds each time

Holmes was dropped once before he fought Shavers, and that was a flash knockdown against Kevin Isaac Holmes got up very quickly and knocked him out the next round. Name 10 people that you think would have remained standing from the shots that Larry took from Shavers and Snipes. Larry was hit by monster shots and he got up quickly. He got up at what, 5 from the Snipes shot, and 6 from the Shavers one. Hell, he was kicking Snipes's ass a few seconds after the knockdown. Holmes went 23 rounds with Shavers, and got dropped once, that's pretty good if you ask me. Only 4 people can say they dropped Holmes in the pros, the Butterbean knockdown was a BS call.

[Bill1234]

I would say that had great chins, but not granite or iron, I consider those the chins of guys like Chuvalo, McCall, Cobb, Marciano, etc. They both faced huge punchers, and you can count the amount of people that dropped them on one hand. When they did go down, they always got up swinging, and that sets them apart from most fighters.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali had the better chin, where Holmes is unreal is in his recuperative powers and ability to fight while hurt.

[arther1045]

Ali took punches from Liston, Foreman and Shavers without going down. Liston, Foreman and Shavers is a very reasonable top-3 hardest heavyweight punchers of all time list.

The rounds that Ali went against Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Shavers,Norton, and Holmes without ever really close to be koed is amazing. Its well over 100 rounds. And he also faced many other big punchers. He is right there with the greatest chins ever.

[arther1045]

You might be right. So who do you give the nod for the greatest chin? Chuvalo, Mercer, old Foreman, Tyson?

Please tell me that someone didn't just mention Tyson in a greatest chins debate. The overrating of this guy on this board is amazing. This is a guy who never finsed a real war.

[Robbi]

The term "granite" is reserved only for the likes of Chuvalo, Mercer, Hagler, Eubank, etc..

Not Eubank. He was dropped against Benn, Watson, Calzaghe, etc. I'd also like to add McCullough who IMO surpasses Hagler's chin. Because he moved up and fought physically bigger fighters who were chilling punchers in their prime weights. Hamed and Morales. And McCullough was a natural bantamweight who had no business sharing a ring with Hamed 10 years ago. Not only was McCullough giving away power but also strength and size against them both. Hagler's best hitters were fighters moving up to face him. Probably Hearns and Mugabi.

Hagler and McCullough's chins are on the same level, but McCullough's chin was out of it's depth and comfort zone more than Hagler's, thus he clearly gets the nod. And McCullough's come forward style, take two to give one, further enhances his chin as he was hit often throughout his career.

[arther1045]

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Sorry i couldn't find the picture of Tyson putting in his mouthpiece sideways after getting koed by a series of punches about half as bruntal as Ali took almost every round he ever fought against Frazier.

[mcvey]

I would say that had great chins, but not granite or iron, I consider those the chins of guys like Chuvalo, McCall, Cobb, Marciano, etc. They both faced huge punchers, and you can count the amount of people that dropped them on one hand. When they did go down, they always got up swinging, and that sets them apart from most fighters.
Which huge punchers do you think Rocky faced?

[mcvey]

Not Eubank. He was dropped against Benn, Watson, Calzaghe, etc. I'd also like to add McCullough who IMO surpasses Hagler's chin. Because he moved up and fought physically bigger fighters who were chilling punchers in their prime weights. Hamed and Morales. And McCullough was a natural bantamweight who had no business sharing a ring with Hamed 10 years ago. Not only was McCullough giving away power but also strength and size against them both. Hagler's best hitters were fighters moving up to face him. Probably Hearns and Mugabi.

Hagler and McCullough's chins are on the same level, but McCullough's chin was out of it's depth and comfort zone more than Hagler's, thus he clearly gets the nod. And McCullough's come forward style, take two to give one, further enhances his chin as he was hit often throughout his career.
Very perceptive post, with which I agree.The Irishman was freakish for durability.

[Bokaj]

Please tell me that someone didn't just mention Tyson in a greatest chins debate. The overrating of this guy on this board is amazing. This is a guy who never finsed a real war.

You might do well to read the whole post before blurting out stuff like that. After stating that Tyson had a great chin, I also said that when he got hurt he stayed hurt and that that was crucial.

[Waynegrade]

Ali had without a doubt, one of the greatest chins in the history of the game. I mean, look at who he fought. Two of the best one puch bombers EVER in boxing; Big George and Earnie Shavers. Never stopped ( don`t tell me about the holmes fight). I think thats a big part of the reason Ali is the way he is today. Puches he took would drop and stop any heavyweights from any era. Ali, not only took them but would come back and find a way to win. Best heavyweight champ chin ever...

[arther1045]

You might do well to read the whole post before blurting out stuff like that. After stating that Tyson had a great chin, I also said that when he got hurt he stayed hurt and that that was crucial.

Even saying Tyson had a great chin serious overrated him. There could be a serious argument wether or not Tyson had a weak chin.

[heehoo]

I'd say their chins were about the same, as well as their recuperative powers.

[JohnThomas1]

Even saying Tyson had a great chin serious overrated him. There could be a serious argument wether or not Tyson had a weak chin.

Give me your argument he has a "weak" chin.........

This should be good.

[Bokaj]

Even saying Tyson had a great chin serious overrated him. There could be a serious argument wether or not Tyson had a weak chin.

This is where we differ, I guess. And I'm definitely not a Tyson fan. But Tyson took good punches by Tubbs, Tucker and Thomas without hardly batting an eye, and he stood up to bombs from Douglas and Lewis before eventually succumbing.

[JohnThomas1]

This is where we differ, I guess. And I'm definitely not a Tyson fan. But Tyson took good punches by Tubbs, Tucker and Thomas without hardly batting an eye, and he stood up to bombs from Douglas and Lewis before eventually succumbing.

I wasn't sure Tubbs landed a punch, let alone a good one.

[Bokaj]

I wasn't sure Tubbs landed a punch, let alone a good one.

I rewatched the fight a day or so ago. Tubbs landed a couple of good punches, but they had no affect on Tyson. Tyson was very content to take a punch to land one of his own, and rightly so.

[Muchmoore]

You might be right. So who do you give the nod for the greatest chin? Chuvalo, Mercer, old Foreman, Tyson?

Oliver McCall had the best chin ever in my eyes. He couldn't be dropped.

[Muchmoore]

Give me your argument he has a "weak" chin.........

This should be good.

This guy is related to Desiree Washington or something. He has an irrational hatred towards him.

[Titan1]

They both had very good chins, though not at the very top.

[Bill1234]

Which huge punchers do you think Rocky faced?

Well, he fought and took some decent shots from Louis. He took big shots from Walcott, Charles, Moore, and Layne. It's hard to tell if a big shot was landed on him because they look the same and very few seem to bother him.

[Bokaj]

Abraq most of the people you named never landed clean punches on Ali but when you did land a clean punch he went down no matter who he took it from. Henry Cooper was a 190 pound cruiserweight yet he almost knocked Ali out with one punch which means he didn't have a great chin.

Holmes was almost knocked out with one punch by Renaldo Snipes a nobody which proves he didnt have a great or granite chin. A granite chin is somebody who takes monster punches and don't get hurt by them or go down. Fighters like McCall, or Tua are considered to have great chins but how many fights did they take big punches and walk right through them. Not many fighters can do this.

Hey, Foreman was floored by Young. Compared to him Cooper and Snipes were effing Ivan Drago. Want to think things over?

[arther1045]

This is where we differ, I guess. And I'm definitely not a Tyson fan. But Tyson took good punches by Tubbs, Tucker and Thomas without hardly batting an eye, and he stood up to bombs from Douglas and Lewis before eventually succumbing.

Every fighter who has ever boxed has taken some good shots. Hearns took many good shots before going down. Again fact is Tyson never finished a fight when taking serious punishment. And don't give me Rudduck or Tucker. Tyson dominated thoese fights and didn't take nearly as much punishment as even Hearns took against Leonard 2. Tyson was a fighter that you knew if he got hit alot he was going down period. And don't give me it took more then one punch because you can say that for almost any fighter. I would rate Frazier over Tyson in chin department.

[arther1045]

Here is a good way to settle this. Some on here think Tyson had a great chin. Tyson was knocked out 5 times in 56 fights 3 times by the age of 35. So if this doesn't take him way out of the great chin discussion then you should be able to name some other fighters with great chins who were knocked out 5 times. Or other fighters with great chins who were koed twice by the age of 30 or 3 times by the age of 35 when he was still considered a very good fighter. I would like to see the list.

And don't give me the old he stood up to Douglas for 10 rounds before getting koed because every fighter who was ever champ can claim things like that. hearns stood up to Leonard for 13 rounds in the first fight and 12 in the 2nd and we all know he didn't have a great chin. Fraizer fought 41 rounds vs Ali taken more punishment then Tyson ever took and I don't see anyone claiming Frazier had a great chin

Either i see a pretty good list here or just like I said Tyson's chin is overrated on this board. Abnd yes I can't stand Tyson and would question anyone who didn't dislike him. But it doesn't mean I am blind to his ability. I would pick him to beat the great majority of champs head to head and the only 2 I would put alot of money on beating a peak Tyson are Ali and Lewis. I don't let biases cloud my judgement when talking about sports. I loathe Leonard but I think he was the 3rd best fighter I saw in the last 40 years behind Ali and Duran.

[Bill1234]

Here is a good way to settle this. Some on here think Tyson had a great chin. Tyson was knocked out 5 times in 56 fights 3 times by the age of 35. So if this doesn't take him way out of the great chin discussion then you should be able to name some other fighters with great chins who were knocked out 5 times. Or other fighters with great chins who were koed twice by the age of 30 or 3 times by the age of 35 when he was still considered a very good fighter. I would like to see the list.

And don't give me the old he stood up to Douglas for 10 rounds before getting koed because every fighter who was ever champ can claim things like that. hearns stood up to Leonard for 13 rounds in the first fight and 12 in the 2nd and we all know he didn't have a great chin. Fraizer fought 41 rounds vs Ali taken more punishment then Tyson ever took and I don't see anyone claiming Frazier had a great chin

Either i see a pretty good list here or just like I said Tyson's chin is overrated on this board. Abnd yes I can't stand Tyson and would question anyone who didn't dislike him. But it doesn't mean I am blind to his ability. I would pick him to beat the great majority of champs head to head and the only 2 I would put alot of money on beating a peak Tyson are Ali and Lewis. I don't let biases cloud my judgement when talking about sports. I loathe Leonard but I think he was the 3rd best fighter I saw in the last 40 years behind Ali and Duran.

I agree with the majority of this post.

[arther1045]

Bokaj was Foreman knocked down with one punch or was it more of Foreman going down from fatigue? Marciano never faced a world class puncher period. By world class i mean a puncher who could knock out world class fighters in their prime. Buster Douglas isnt a hard puncher so i dont care if i took 100 punches to knock Tyson down it still shows how weak Tysons chin is. Who else did Douglas knock out in his career who was half was decent besides Tyson? Holyfield wasnt a huge puncher and stopped him . Lewis toyed with Tyson and could of stopped him at any time. Besides Tyson who else did Lewis knock out who would be consider world class?


Exatly. Just like I said a better case can be made that Tyson had a weak chin then Tyson had a great chin.

[Bokaj]

Here is a good way to settle this. Some on here think Tyson had a great chin. Tyson was knocked out 5 times in 56 fights 3 times by the age of 35. So if this doesn't take him way out of the great chin discussion then you should be able to name some other fighters with great chins who were knocked out 5 times. Or other fighters with great chins who were koed twice by the age of 30 or 3 times by the age of 35 when he was still considered a very good fighter. I would like to see the list.

And don't give me the old he stood up to Douglas for 10 rounds before getting koed because every fighter who was ever champ can claim things like that. hearns stood up to Leonard for 13 rounds in the first fight and 12 in the 2nd and we all know he didn't have a great chin. Fraizer fought 41 rounds vs Ali taken more punishment then Tyson ever took and I don't see anyone claiming Frazier had a great chin

Either i see a pretty good list here or just like I said Tyson's chin is overrated on this board. Abnd yes I can't stand Tyson and would question anyone who didn't dislike him. But it doesn't mean I am blind to his ability. I would pick him to beat the great majority of champs head to head and the only 2 I would put alot of money on beating a peak Tyson are Ali and Lewis. I don't let biases cloud my judgement when talking about sports. I loathe Leonard but I think he was the 3rd best fighter I saw in the last 40 years behind Ali and Duran.

I think Tyson lacked both in recuperative power and mental strengh, and therefore was unable to turn a bad situation around. But for taking a single, very hard, shot I think he was a good as anyone else.

Hearns wobbled every time Leonard really tagged him in their two fights. Tyson wasn't like that. I can't see him being KO'd when well ahead.

I agree with you that Frazier's chin is underrated. Anyone taking the punches he took from Foreman would come to the same end.

[arther1045]

I think Tyson lacked both in recuperative power and mental strengh, and therefore was unable to turn a bad situation around. But for taking a single, very hard, shot I think he was a good as anyone else.

Hearns wobbled every time Leonard really tagged him in their two fights. Tyson wasn't like that. I can't see him being KO'd when well ahead.

I agree with you that Frazier's chin is underrated. Anyone taking the punches he took from Foreman would come to the same end.

Recuperative powers are part of having a good chin.Weether you are knocked down or can't recover they are both the signs of a weak chin.

[JohnThomas1]

This guy is related to Desiree Washington or something. He has an irrational hatred towards him.

Nobody polarizes the fans like Tyson :lol:

[Danny]

Both Ali & Holmes were extremely durable. I mean, you don't have to be intelligent to watch some of the punches they both absorbed during their careers to come that conclusion.

If forced to pick who had the better chin, I would say Holmes. For me, Larry had the best recovery powers of a HW. The right hand he took from Shavers was madness. Holmes was actually knocked out & then woke up when he hit the canvas. I don't know how he got up!

[MrMagic]

arther1045 is a damn joke:lol::patsch

[JohnThomas1]

Both Ali & Holmes were extremely durable. I mean, you don't have to be intelligent to watch some of the punches they both absorbed during their careers to come that conclusion.

If forced to pick who had the better chin, I would say Holmes. For me, Larry had the best recovery powers of a HW. The right hand he took from Shavers was madness. Holmes was actually knocked out & then woke up when he hit the canvas. I don't know how he got up!

Ali took some of the same right hands and stayed standing, and Holmes was close to peak where Ali was way past it. Ali is FAR more proven, given the bombs he took from not only Shavers, but Foreman, Liston and dozens upon dozens from Frazier.

Holmes could be dropped easier but recovered superbly.

I like Ali here, but Holmes is certainly on the top rung.

[Privatejoker]

:roll: Bill1234.

I never said Holmes did not have a great chin, i said Ali's was better.

You said Holmes was dropped by Kevin Issacs.

OK. But at least Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper were known in the boxing world.

And as i already stated. Ali was 20-21 and 201 pounds. His body was not mature yet.

Can you see Cooper dropping the Ali of 1965-1967?

Can you see Snipes dropping Ali the way he did Holmes. And this was a near PEAK Holmes.

Not a under developed one who is 20-21 years old.

Is Snipes Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Mac Foster, Ron Lyle?

Even guys like Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo hit harder than Snipes.

Holmes had a great chin, i never said he didn't. It just ain't as good as Ali's.

[Privatejoker]

Plus why do people bring up that Cooper weighed only 190 pounds as a slur to Ali?

Cooper weighed more than Marciano did his whole career. Plus he was 6'2".

A 235 pound Jess Wilard was destroyed by a 184 pound Jack DEMPSEY.

Ali only weighed 201 pounds v Cooper so the weight difference was not huge.

Ali was not physical peak. Not the 210 1/2 pounds he was a year later v Liston.

Cooper was not feather fisted either. He was certainly known as a bigger hitter than Kevin Issacs or Renaldo Snipes.

[Bill1234]

:roll: Bill1234.

I never said Holmes did not have a great chin, i said Ali's was better.

You said Holmes was dropped by Kevin Issacs.

OK. But at least Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper were known in the boxing world.

And as i already stated. Ali was 20-21 and 201 pounds. His body was not mature yet.

Can you see Cooper dropping the Ali of 1965-1967?

Can you see Snipes dropping Ali the way he did Holmes. And this was a near PEAK Holmes.

Not a under developed one who is 20-21 years old.

Is Snipes Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Mac Foster, Ron Lyle?

Even guys like Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo hit harder than Snipes.

Holmes had a great chin, i never said he didn't. It just ain't as good as Ali's.

I'm confused by the ":roll: " I said things that countered what you said. It doesn't always matter how hard someone is considered to hit in general, they can still land massive shots, which Snipes did to Larry. Yes, I can see the shot Snipes landed on Larry dropping Ali. Is Cooper Norton, Cooney, Weaver, Mercer, McCall, Holyfield, Smith, or Bey? The shot Snipes landed on Holmes was easily as hard, or harder than the one Cooper hit Clay with. It's mainly a matter of them seeing it comming or not, and how big the shot is. Would you say Holmes was developed in the Isaacs fight? You don't have to be known in the boxing world to land a hard punch.

[Bill1234]

Plus why do people bring up that Cooper weighed only 190 pounds as a slur to Ali?

Cooper weighed more than Marciano did his whole career. Plus he was 6'2".

A 235 pound Jess Wilard was destroyed by a 184 pound Jack DEMPSEY.

Ali only weighed 201 pounds v Cooper so the weight difference was not huge.

Ali was not physical peak. Not the 210 1/2 pounds he was a year later v Liston.

Cooper was not feather fisted either. He was certainly known as a bigger hitter than Kevin Issacs or Renaldo Snipes.

Look at the Snipes shot:

Tlu4R_ZobU0

[abraq]

Abraq most of the people you named never landed clean punches on Ali but when you did land a clean punch he went down no matter who he took it from. Henry Cooper was a 190 pound cruiserweight yet he almost knocked Ali out with one punch which means he didn't have a great chin.

Holmes was almost knocked out with one punch by Renaldo Snipes a nobody which proves he didnt have a great or granite chin. A granite chin is somebody who takes monster punches and don't get hurt by them or go down. Fighters like McCall, or Tua are considered to have great chins but how many fights did they take big punches and walk right through them. Not many fighters can do this.

You honestly and truly believe that Ali was never hit cleanly by the guys I mentioned? You mean, Frazier landed only one clean punch on Ali in their legendary trilogy and still managed to win one fight and lost the other two closely? Foreman never managed to land even one clean shot against a stationary Ali on the ropes who was urging him to have a go? I believe that when you use rope-a-dope, you take it for granted that you will get hit, at least occasionally. Norton broke Ali's jaw in their first fight and many people argue that he won one of their other two fights. He did all this by never cleanly hitting Ali? Lyle was ahead on points at the time when Ali stopped him. He was ahead in a long fight, without hitting his opponent cleanly? In a boxing match? People still wonder how an old and shot Ali took full blooded shots from the dreaded Earnie Shavers and still remained upright. Or do you believe that Shavers did not land even one of those punches cleanly? Liston was not doing too badly in their first fight either. All the others, except maybe for Cleveland Williams, at least had a go or two at Ali. I forgot Oscar Bonavena the last time. He literally hurled himself with his punches at Ali and landed quite a few. Ali hardly winced. Yet the same Bonavena knocked down Frazier twice with punches to which he seemed to be less committed.

By the way, you said that "most of the people you named never landed clean punches on Ali". This means that some of them did. Then you go on to say that "when you did land a clean punch he went down no matter who he took it from". Both your statements cannot be correct.

Holmes, as I posted, tended to go down sometimes. But you have to admire how he would invariably get back up to box the ears off his opponent.

Look FR, I understand that everyone is entitled to his opinion and as such have respect for them all. After all, this is a discussion forum.

But I will appreciate if you really watch the fights and then post your comments.

Regards.

[Bokaj]

I love it that he calls himself "Foreman Rules" and then talk down the man that schooled Foreman. If Ali didn't have a good chin, Foreman's power surely is very, very overrated.

[arther1045]

arther1045 is a damn joke:lol::patsch


This post would have meant more if it had the list that I was asking for. Still waiting. The silence is deafening. Just some clowns claiming a guy who got koed 5 times has a great chin. Waiting for that list pal.

[Privatejoker]

Bill1234 I never claimed that Snipes shot v Holmes was not hard.

But Snipes was a nobody.

Plus Ali would not have gone down that from Snipes shot because Ali took right hands to the chin his whole career and never went down.

Was that Snipes right hand harder than Shavers?

Ali was shot v Shavers and never went down.

Holmes was peak v Shavers and went down.

It was left hooks that troubled Ali.

At least Cooper was a KNOWN fighter at the time, a guy who was liked and KNOWN in the boxing World.

Cooper was a veteran who had waged wars and fought against an green Ali who was only 21 and 201 pounds.

Remember Ali travelled to England to fight Henry in front of 55,000.

Ali was only 21.

Who was Snipes before and after Holmes?

[SuzieQ49]

Which huge punchers do you think Rocky faced?

Joe Louis Rex Layne Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore were all big punchers.


Louis # 1 on Ring Magazine top 100 punchers list and 6'2 214lb(outweighed marciano by 30lb)

Walcott # 66 on Ring Magazine top 100 punchers list

Moore # 4 on Ring Magazine top 100 punchers list

Rex Layne was 34-1(25kos) described as "Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a very hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage."- Ring Magazine 1951 Nat Fleischer



Now back to the original topic!

[SuzieQ49]

Oliver McCall had the best chin ever in my eyes. He couldn't be dropped.

Even a peak mike tyson couldnt floor him once in many rounds of sparring

[SuzieQ49]

I do think The Renaldo Snipes shot hurts holmes more than helps. snipes was not a big puncher and he had holmes OUT with one shot, larry went stumbling into the ring post even after getting up, if snipes had any kind of finishing skills, he would have taken out larry. Of course taking the shavers right hand showed larry has what it takes to take a big punch.


I will say larry seemed to be far more vunerable to being stunned and hurt badly by right hands than ali was.......

[ChrisPontius]

I will say larry seemed to be far more vunerable to being stunned and hurt badly by right hands than ali was.......

Does make you think.... but on the other hand, Ali was more susceptible to left hooks. Frazier feasted on it, not to mention what Cooper did.

[SuzieQ49]

Jersey Joe was more cute than a technician. Obviously, his technique did not save from many losses.


Jeez Louis was ali stunned by 187lb coopers left hook! in modern times that fight might have been stopped. for about 15-20 seconds ali didnt know where the hell he was or who he was! im shocked that one left hook effectived him so badly. cooper could crack, as the knockout of ersktine on film shows, but he was no foreman/liston/shavers/lyle type bomber.

[JohnThomas1]

Does make you think.... but on the other hand, Ali was more susceptible to left hooks. Frazier feasted on it, not to mention what Cooper did.

I think if Frazier fought Holmes tho he'd land his share - Frazier had one of the greatest and best utilized hooks ever. Frazier - Holmes is a fascinating matchup.

On another note Snipes actually hits harder with the right than Suze thinks i reckon. The finest example is the Berbick fight.

[Bill1234]

Bill1234 I never claimed that Snipes shot v Holmes was not hard.

But Snipes was a nobody.

Plus Ali would not have gone down that from Snipes shot because Ali took right hands to the chin his whole career and never went down.

Was that Snipes right hand harder than Shavers?

Ali was shot v Shavers and never went down.

Holmes was peak v Shavers and went down.

It was left hooks that troubled Ali.

At least Cooper was a KNOWN fighter at the time, a guy who was liked and KNOWN in the boxing World.

Cooper was a veteran who had waged wars and fought against an green Ali who was only 21 and 201 pounds.

Remember Ali travelled to England to fight Henry in front of 55,000.

Ali was only 21.

Who was Snipes before and after Holmes?

Snipes had to be a somebody to be rated in the top 10. Just because you are older, doesn't mean you cant take a good shot. Look at the old George Foreman's chin. Chin doesn't tend to go down until your getting around 50 or so. You seem to discredit Holmes for getting dropped by the Snipes right hand just because it was Renaldo Snipes, and I don't agree with that. ALL heavyweights can hit and knock you out with one shot. That may have been one of the, if not the hardest shot Snipes landed in his career. Ali was dropped in the Shavers fight, but it was ruled a slip, am I correct? The big right hand that Shavers landed on Ali may not have dropped him, but he was hurt the rest of the round where as Holmes would have went down and 30-45 seconds later would be in total control again.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali was dropped in the Shavers fight, but it was ruled a slip, am I correct? The big right hand that Shavers landed on Ali may not have dropped him, but he was hurt the rest of the round where as Holmes would have went down and 30-45 seconds later would be in total control again.

Don't forget Holmes was peak and Ali washed up. Ali was probably never in total control as he just wasn't that good anymore. If Ali was peak Shavers would be lucky to land on him, as he was with Holmes. Ali also would have been in total control. Picture the Holmes of Spinks 1 for a better comparison.

[Bill1234]

Don't forget Holmes was peak and Ali washed up. Ali was probably never in total control as he just wasn't that good anymore. If Ali was peak Shavers would be lucky to land on him, as he was with Holmes. Ali also would have been in total control. Picture the Holmes of Spinks 1 for a better comparison.

I think Ali's chin was just as good in the Shavers fight as it was during is peak, but I see your point.

[The Kurgan]

And Holmes had those bad amatuer ko losses to Wells. That never happened to Ali & anyway you slice it, it's still a ko by result.

Ali was KO'd in the amateurs.

[Privatejoker]

As i said Bill1234.

I think Ali's chin was better than Holmes. That doesn't mean Holmes chin was glass. It was great also.

[SuzieQ49]

Larry Holmes also took some good shots against 6'5 230lb roy tiger williams, a very underated win on larrys resume. tiger was the most feared man of the era.

[apollack]

Both Holmes and Ali had fantastic chins. Sure they could be dropped, but they got up and survived and fought back. Both had wonderful recuperative powers.

[Muchmoore]

Ali was KO'd in the amateurs.

Impossible! It's Ali!

[Bill1234]

As i said Bill1234.

I think Ali's chin was better than Holmes. That doesn't mean Holmes chin was glass. It was great also.

I understand that part, but what the parts I'm talking about are the reasonings for what you are saying.

[ChrisPontius]

Larry Holmes also took some good shots against 6'5 230lb roy tiger williams, a very underated win on larrys resume. tiger was the most feared man of the era.

Of what era? The early 70's? The late 70's? He was a big player in neither and lost every time he stepped up. Even managed to lose a decision to Shavers, who by the way, should not last if he was a big puncher. Not a bad win for Holmes, but nothing special either.

[Bill1234]

Of what era? The early 70's? The late 70's? He was a big player in neither and lost every time he stepped up. Even managed to lose a decision to Shavers, who by the way, should not last if he was a big puncher. Not a bad win for Holmes, but nothing special either.

Shavers TKO'd him. It was a big back and forth slugfest, and Shavers backed into the ropes letting Roy come in after him. Earnie fired off and landed a big right that hurt Roy bad. Soon the ref was counting to Roy in the corner and Roy said he was all right, but when the ref turned around Roy just fell over.

Williams was basically a gate keeper. If you could get by him, you were a true contender, if not, then you shouldn't be in there with the top 10.

[Bigcat]

Very very good chins, depends on what you class as granite, but that word is maybe a push too far for me. It will always take big punches from big punchers to fell them though, and both have recuperative powers of the highest order, and were warriors.

Exacly what i was intending to say...

They could recover even if a horse would have kicked them in the Jaw.

[ChrisPontius]

Shavers TKO'd him. It was a big back and forth slugfest, and Shavers backed into the ropes letting Roy come in after him. Earnie fired off and landed a big right that hurt Roy bad. Soon the ref was counting to Roy in the corner and Roy said he was all right, but when the ref turned around Roy just fell over.

Williams was basically a gate keeper. If you could get by him, you were a true contender, if not, then you shouldn't be in there with the top 10.

Exactly right. And a gatekeeper is hardly what you call "the most feared man of the era" or "an underrated win".