Who was closest to being 'unknockoutable'?

[Manassa]

Who was the hardest fighter to stop or knock out due to concussion? Doesn't necessarily have to be the most durable fighter - it could just be one who was really good at not being hit. But don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here. Those two were hurt badly more than once during their best years. We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.

I'm going for Marvin Hagler. Can't imagine any middleweight even flooring him momentarily, let alone knocking him out.

[Zakman]

Chuvalo, McCall.

[Manassa]

Chuvalo, McCall.

Bollocks. They were beaten into submission on film, particularly Chuvalo. 'Due to concussion' doesn't mean out cold, I mean beaten into a state where they can't fight back because they're being hurt by punches to the head.

[Dostoevsky]

David Tua (yeah he's not exactly retired or classic but he needs to be mentioned)
Hagler
James Toney

[jonesjrp4p1]

toney and lamotta stick out to me as being hard to ko

[justaboxingfan]

The first name that sticks out for me is Chuvalo. his head is abnormally huge just looking at it.

[Manassa]

Oh well.

[sjc]

Chris Eubank

[Manassa]

Chris Eubank

Was he really as reliable as Hagler? Honestly? Eubank was stopped in his career, regardless of whether he was past his prime or not. We never saw that with Hagler. Eubank was knocked down. He showed signs of weakness. We didn't get any of that from Hagler, who faced better opposition and even more punchers.

[MagnificentMatt]

Hagler, Toney, Sweat Pea....Number one and three are a couple of my all time favorites...Toney on the other hand has my respect but...bleh

[MagnificentMatt]

And thats a prime Pea...hehe,,Even though he was never actually "knocked out" in the first place.

[Jack]

Based on his defence, Mayweather. I don't like coming into threads like these and naming the most recent hype-job, 'cause it makes me look like a dick when you get names from the turn of the century, but really, has anyone ever hit him clean with a real hard shot? Not often. If you were to count about the flush shots he's taken, you're looking at a tiny amount. He has never been in big trouble in a fight. Not once.

You could "Tommy Hearns would KO him", and that may be true, but in all his career, he has shown an incredible amount of talent that has made sure he hasn't ever been hurt big time.

I don't think there are many, if any, elite fighters who you could say the same about. Especially not in a world title career ranging from 130lbs to 154lbs.

I don't know about Hagler. He certainly recuperated quickly, but he was hurt in his career. No doubt did he have an incredible chin, but I think he could have been knocked out. Right now with Mayweather, unless you go to a ridiculous weight, there isn't a boxer who could stop or hurt him.

And I can't stand Mayweather either!

[rekcutnevets]

Good posts so far. I have to say Ray Mercer and Tex Cobb.

[dav8d777]

Who was the hardest fighter to stop or knock out due to concussion? Doesn't necessarily have to be the most durable fighter - it could just be one who was really good at not being hit. But don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here. Those two were hurt badly more than once during their best years. We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.

I'm going for Marvin Hagler. Can't imagine any middleweight even flooring him momentarily, let alone knocking him out.

That post was a great jumping off point for this. I will be ever so slightly off subject.

One of the best "can't be knocked out" fighters was Jerry Quarry. He shows a lot of KO's, but he was a bleeder and therefore not "durable". Most of you know that Quarry died of dementia pugilistica as did his brother Mike. That is where I'll make a brief aside. Taking a punch well can stink in the end.

That was not the question of course. Quarry took some of the hardest punches I have ever seen. Especially in the case of his fight with Frazier. He ate Frazier's best Sunday left hook. I don't mean he ate it and attacked, but he didn't go down.

Some of the guys being mentioned here probably did have a better chin, but I personally never saw a chin like Quarry's. He cut easily and lost all of his fights that were at the highest echelon, but he could stand up after being hit by a wrecking ball.

[Manassa]

I don't know about Hagler. He certainly recuperated quickly, but he was hurt in his career.

He was? Who by? Hearns is about the only well known time Hagler was 'hurt', and even then, he was only briefly stunned. Seconds later he was tagging Hearns. Mugabi landed some good shots on Hagler but never hurt him. Eugene Hart might have hurt Hagler, but he covered it up so well I can't even tell - he took a left hook on the ear, but closed the gap immediately to stop himself taking any more. Dornell Wigfall staggered Hagler early in his career.

Those are the only times I know of where Hagler was hurt. Three. And it's not like he was even badly hurt... Hell, two of them aren't really worth mentioning because they were so insignificant (Hearns & Hart). When you think about the amount of punchers Hagler faced (Hart, Mugabi, Hearns, Scypion, Sibson, Lee, Briscoe, Roldan, Obelmejias and others), that's quite incredible. Apparently never floored as an amateur, either. Can Mayweather say the same?

[Manassa]

Good posts so far. I have to say Ray Mercer and Tex Cobb.

You have the wrong idea. This is not a 'best chins' thread.

[sjc]

Was he really as reliable as Hagler? Honestly? Eubank was stopped in his career, regardless of whether he was past his prime or not. We never saw that with Hagler. Eubank was knocked down. He showed signs of weakness. We didn't get any of that from Hagler, who faced better opposition and even more punchers.
Chris was stopped once in his 50 fight career, in his last ever fight, on doctors advice. Down only 3 times in 50 fights. His opponents were hardly shabby - Calzaghe, Benn x2, Watson x2, Collins x2, Wharton.

The man just would not give up. Granite chin and lions heart.

I'm not sure who is actually THE 'closest to being unknockoutable', I know hagler was one hard sonofa, and I ain't gonna dispute your choice on that, not one jot mate.

There are plenty of others who could lay claim to this 'title' for sure.

I'm sticking with Chris Eubank, call it a hunch. And he certainly deserves a mention in this thread IMO.

[rekcutnevets]

Forgive me, Manassa, but how does having a good chin not relate to being the most unknockoutable?

Chuvalo made the list, and I don't see you saying anything about him.

Hagler had a great chin. He was a good boxer, and had defense yes. I just never saw him have to use his defense to ward off a ko. He might have blinked against Hearns, but he in no way looked out of it.

[Stonehands89]

The stand-out for me is Hagler. Hearns confirmed it and Mugabi put an explanation point on it.

Hagler's chin is superior to Quarry, Chuvalo, Cobb, Mercer, and Lamotta.

Hagler fought guys who could punch with not only incredible power, but incredible speed as well. He was never knocked down (the Roldan fight saw a slip and I remember Hagler having that KD overturned), and never wobbled or hurt. Hearns stunned him momentarily and he recovered in seconds after holding on to make sure everything was working after that right uppercut-cross that Hearns NAILED him with WHILE HE WAS COMING IN.

Some guys with granite chins take shots and while they don't go down, they step back and shake it off. They feign bravado but don't be fooled.

Other guys take shots and while they don't go down, their output declines while they clear the cobwebs.

Hagler took bombs and not only did he not blink, he continued punching as if nothing happened. Mugabi nailed him with an uppercut and Hagler's head flew up and what happened? Hagler just kept coming and kept punching. He's in a class by himself for not only taking shots (which many of the heralded great chins have to do) but because he didn't pause or disrupt what he was doing to clear cobwebs save one time that I know of -and that was after eating what may be the most devastating single shot in history -the Hearns Right.

Sorry, but Cobb getting slammed in the nose and then stopping and smiling means more than bravado... it means "damn. Let me get a second here." Hagler barely even blinked.

[Duodenum]

Duilio Loi is a good candidate as well as Hagler. Billy Graham was also never floored or stopped. When Jeffries was HW champion, he too may have been impervious. Marciano was cut and dropped twice, but he reported that he never saw stars, or otherwise had his bell rung.

Greb should have been stopped by concussive force, yet despite failing vision, and competing in hundreds of contests, he was only stopped by a broken arm. In 350 fights spanning 25 years, Jack Britton was only stopped once, in his second fight. These are mind-boggling statistics.

[Bill1234]

Hagler has to be a top mention, also Marciano. Ali and Holmes pulled them selves off the canvas from bombs/haymakers that would have KO'd most guys, but I'm not saying that they are unknockoutable, just they were very hard to KO. Frazier seemed to get up from beatings quite a bit, like his first fight with Foreman. Getting knocked down 6 times in 2 rounds, and still getting up.

[achillesthegreat]

Was he really as reliable as Hagler? Honestly? Eubank was stopped in his career, regardless of whether he was past his prime or not. We never saw that with Hagler. Eubank was knocked down. He showed signs of weakness. We didn't get any of that from Hagler, who faced better opposition and even more punchers.
Eubank was stopped because his eye was grotesque.

No one ever stops Eubank.

[achillesthegreat]

Muhammad Ali is actually a fighter I can't ever see being ko'd. Dropped, hurt, stunned, you name it but not put out cold and not stopped by the ref.

Hagler was one of the guys who I can't see ever being phased. His chin is great but he was also always in great shape so meant it was always as fresh as could be.

[Bill1234]

Muhammad Ali is actually a fighter I can't ever see being ko'd. Dropped, hurt, stunned, you name it but not put out cold and not stopped by the ref.

Ali could be KO'd. Bert Cooper almost did it. IMO if Marciano landed his "Suzie Q" that would do it.

[Manassa]

Forgive me, Manassa, but how does having a good chin not relate to being the most unknockoutable?

Chuvalo made the list, and I don't see you saying anything about him.

Hagler had a great chin. He was a good boxer, and had defense yes. I just never saw him have to use his defense to ward off a ko. He might have blinked against Hearns, but he in no way looked out of it.

Chuvalo had a great chin. But he could be hit hard and often, and would let himself become a target and so could be stopped. Therefore, he was vulnerable. A fighter like Hagler had far better survival skills, more determination and a better defence - much harder to stop or knock out.

[Manassa]

Eubank was stopped because his eye was grotesque.

No one ever stops Eubank.

But he was still stopped - Hagler, Monzon, Brown, Gavilan - these men were never stopped.

[Manassa]

The stand-out for me is Hagler. Hearns confirmed it and Mugabi put an explanation point on it.

Hagler's chin is superior to Quarry, Chuvalo, Cobb, Mercer, and Lamotta.

Hagler fought guys who could punch with not only incredible power, but incredible speed as well. He was never knocked down (the Roldan fight saw a slip and I remember Hagler having that KD overturned), and never wobbled or hurt. Hearns stunned him momentarily and he recovered in seconds after holding on to make sure everything was working after that right uppercut-cross that Hearns NAILED him with WHILE HE WAS COMING IN.

Some guys with granite chins take shots and while they don't go down, they step back and shake it off. They feign bravado but don't be fooled.

Other guys take shots and while they don't go down, their output declines while they clear the cobwebs.

Hagler took bombs and not only did he not blink, he continued punching as if nothing happened. Mugabi nailed him with an uppercut and Hagler's head flew up and what happened? Hagler just kept coming and kept punching. He's in a class by himself for not only taking shots (which many of the heralded great chins have to do) but because he didn't pause or disrupt what he was doing to clear cobwebs save one time that I know of -and that was after eating what may be the most devastating single shot in history -the Hearns Right.

Sorry, but Cobb getting slammed in the nose and then stopping and smiling means more than bravado... it means "damn. Let me get a second here." Hagler barely even blinked.

The most stark example of what you're talking about came in the Hagler-Mugabi fight, but not 'the' uppercut. Sixth round... The action has heated up and the fighters are toe-to-toe. Hagler starts throwing some punches but leaves his chin unprotected and Mugabi lands a booming left hook that really jolts Hagler's jaw, but there is no effect whatsoever. Hagler's head violently jerks from the impact but he carries on punching and moments later, Mugabi is stumbling back into the ropes. Check that one out - you'll know it when you see it. You'll hear it as well.

[Manassa]

I'll concede that Eubank was stopped due to superficial damage (although I can't help holding it against a fighter; a 'TKO' on the record just doesn't look as good as no stoppage losses at all), but Hagler was more proven and hurt less times. I have to stick with him.

[rekcutnevets]

My apologies, guys. I was not mentioning Hagler, because he was already mentioned. He is the first to come to mind with being near impossible to stop. I mentioned people that were not posted yet. I did not mean them to be harder to stop than Marvin.

This was one of the threads that it is ok to mention the same person over and over. So yeah, Hagler. I meant those other guys more like honerable mentions.

[The Kurgan]

I'll concede that Eubank was stopped due to superficial damage (although I can't help holding it against a fighter; a 'TKO' on the record just doesn't look as good as no stoppage losses at all), but Hagler was more proven and hurt less times. I have to stick with him.

That's fair, although Eubank should be in the top 10. A modern fighter who deserves recognition is Winky Wright. Admittedly, he was down a LOT against Vasquez, but no matter how many flush shots, Vasquez couldn't knock him out, suggesting some serious recuperative abilities. Add the fact that he's taken everything that every other boxer can dish out and his obviously very sound defense, and you have a boxer who is not going to get stopped. I can't think of anyone from light-middleweight upwards who has both the power to stop Winky and the skill to land on him frequently enough. MAYBE he could be stopped on his stool or on cuts... Maybe...

James Toney has to get a mention. In fact, his "unknockoutableness" is arguably more impressive than Hagler's or Monzon's, because they had the advantage of staying in one division. Much as I like them, I can't seem them lasting against George Foreman or Earnie Shavers if they had to bulk up to heavyweight. Toney's two knockdowns were both cases of being knocked off balance, and after them he went on to take serious punishment from proven punchers without being seriously hurt. Indeed, Toney has never been wobbled about; he's just wobbled about of his own fat accord.

[The Kurgan]

In fact, bugger it: I don't like him, but James Toney is the closest thing to unknockoutable, at least from 160-200 lbs. At heavyweight, I can see people who would knock out the latter-day Toney that we've seen since early 2006, but we're talking ATG finishers like Louis and Lewis.

[Dempsey1238]

Micky Walker is other imo. The beatings he took when he jump in the heavyweights was impressive.

[The Kurgan]

Mayweather was hurt by Corley at 140, how do you figure noone could hurt him?

He was also knocked down by Zab Judah.

[Russell]

Hmm, well, staying in line with what's being asked for, I think Whitaker needs to be looked at further.

Even years and years past his best and heavily on drugs the man went 12 with Trinidad, who's an elite punch himself.

He could always be floored, and was was more than once... But like Greb he was only stopped once in his career and that was because of a broken bone.

He just had an amazing ability to get himself together and his arrogance helped keep him going too, I believe.

Joe Frazier needs to be mentioned here too, I think.

Ali, in, what, fifty something rounds never had him off his feet. His face was beaten to the point where he had some of the worst damage to his eye I've ever seen and he still wouldn't stop.

Bonavena had him down, Ramos almost had him on the mat, even Quarry backed him up and looked like he almost had him down... But Joe always got up. Even against a prime Foreman he just would not... stop... getting... up.

[Dempsey1238]

Hmm, well, staying in line with what's being asked for, I think Whitaker needs to be looked at further.

Even years and years past his best and heavily on drugs the man went 12 with Trinidad, who's an elite punch himself.

He could always be floored, and was was more than once... But like Greb he was only stopped once in his career and that was because of a broken bone.

He just had an amazing ability to get himself together and his arrogance helped keep him going too, I believe.

Joe Frazier needs to be mentioned here too, I think.

Ali, in, what, fifty something rounds never had him off his feet. His face was beaten to the point where he had some of the worst damage to his eye I've ever seen and he still wouldn't stop.

Bonavena had him down, Ramos almost had him on the mat, even Quarry backed him up and looked like he almost had him down... But Joe always got up. Even against a prime Foreman he just would not... stop... getting... up.

If your added Fraizer in this regard, Marciano needs a mention here. He was other that would aways get up when knockdown.

[Russell]

Yeah, Joe was definitely tested against better punchers than Marciano though.

And we never saw single shots like the ones Moore or Walcott threw at Marciano down Frazier.

[The Kurgan]

Hmm, well, staying in line with what's being asked for, I think Whitaker needs to be looked at further.

Even years and years past his best and heavily on drugs the man went 12 with Trinidad, who's an elite punch himself.

He could always be floored, and was was more than once... But like Greb he was only stopped once in his career and that was because of a broken bone.

He just had an amazing ability to get himself together and his arrogance helped keep him going too, I believe.

All good points. Whitaker may be a joint number one alongside Toney.

Joe Frazier needs to be mentioned here too, I think.

Ali, in, what, fifty something rounds never had him off his feet. His face was beaten to the point where he had some of the worst damage to his eye I've ever seen and he still wouldn't stop.

Bonavena had him down, Ramos almost had him on the mat, even Quarry backed him up and looked like he almost had him down... But Joe always got up. Even against a prime Foreman he just would not... stop... getting... up.

He was nearly knocked out by Bonavena in their first fight. I don't think anyone could put Whitaker or Toney into Queersville like that.

He was wobbling like a 1980s Soviet statesman by the time Mercante stopped the madness against Foreman. He was resigned to giving up in the second fight with Foreman.

[Russell]

Thanks, Kurgan.

I do agree with you. I just think Frazier probably deserves to be in the top ten or so here. Not number one or anything.

[The Kurgan]

Thanks, Kurgan.

I do agree with you. I just think Frazier probably deserves to be in the top ten or so here. Not number one or anything.

Possibly. Certainly in the heavyweight top 10.

[Russell]

Think Mickey Ward might rank somewhere among the Light Welterweights and what not, Kurgan?

[Dempsey1238]

Well they caught Rocky when he was a little off footing. Moore nail the Rock when he was standed on ONE foot.

[Jbuz]

Who was the hardest fighter to stop or knock out due to concussion? Doesn't necessarily have to be the most durable fighter - it could just be one who was really good at not being hit. But don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here. Those two were hurt badly more than once during their best years. We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.

I'm going for Marvin Hagler. Can't imagine any middleweight even flooring him momentarily, let alone knocking him out.

Ali, Robinson and Chuvalo come to mind.

:yep

[JohnThomas1]

Ali could be KO'd. Bert Cooper almost did it. IMO if Marciano landed his "Suzie Q" that would do it.

Ali must have been a ripe old age vs Bert. As far as Marciano, yeah sure, Shavers, Foreman, Frazier and Liston were pillow fisted.

Personally i think Ali and SRR definitely fit well whether hurt or not.

Haglier is an obvious mention, and i might put Monzon even further forward.

Toney with that great chin and cunning defence and rolling is mentionable.

Gavilan for sure.

Julio Chavez in his prime undoubtably.

Duran in his prime, re above.

If we stick to peaks and peak weights i believe we can add plenty in here. A Chavez and a Duran for instance went to places a Hagler never did, both in weight variance and in way past prime fighting. If either retired at a similar time to Marv they would be held high here. Lets say Duran for instance retires after the Benitez fight and Chavez after Whitaker.

[Stonehands89]

The most stark example of what you're talking about came in the Hagler-Mugabi fight, but not 'the' uppercut. Sixth round... The action has heated up and the fighters are toe-to-toe. Hagler starts throwing some punches but leaves his chin unprotected and Mugabi lands a booming left hook that really jolts Hagler's jaw, but there is no effect whatsoever. Hagler's head violently jerks from the impact but he carries on punching and moments later, Mugabi is stumbling back into the ropes. Check that one out - you'll know it when you see it. You'll hear it as well.

I remember that one clear as day. Mugabi spread his legs and planted his feet and just teed off and Hagler ate that hook flush... and won the exchange.

[Pat_Lowe]

That's fair, although Eubank should be in the top 10. A modern fighter who deserves recognition is Winky Wright. Admittedly, he was down a LOT against Vasquez, but no matter how many flush shots, Vasquez couldn't knock him out, suggesting some serious recuperative abilities. Add the fact that he's taken everything that every other boxer can dish out and his obviously very sound defense, and you have a boxer who is not going to get stopped. I can't think of anyone from light-middleweight upwards who has both the power to stop Winky and the skill to land on him frequently enough. MAYBE he could be stopped on his stool or on cuts... Maybe...

James Toney has to get a mention. In fact, his "unknockoutableness" is arguably more impressive than Hagler's or Monzon's, because they had the advantage of staying in one division. Much as I like them, I can't seem them lasting against George Foreman or Earnie Shavers if they had to bulk up to heavyweight. Toney's two knockdowns were both cases of being knocked off balance, and after them he went on to take serious punishment from proven punchers without being seriously hurt. Indeed, Toney has never been wobbled about; he's just wobbled about of his own fat accord.

James Toney was actually legitmately knocked down and hurt by Reggie Johnson, a flush right hand I think it was put him down and he had wobbly legs afterwards.

[CASH_718]

Bollocks. They were beaten into submission on film, particularly Chuvalo. 'Due to concussion' doesn't mean out cold, I mean beaten into a state where they can't fight back because they're being hurt by punches to the head.McCall was beaten into submission??? Never.

[Bad_Intentions]

Who was the hardest fighter to stop or knock out due to concussion? Doesn't necessarily have to be the most durable fighter - it could just be one who was really good at not being hit. But don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here. Those two were hurt badly more than once during their best years. We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.

I'm going for Marvin Hagler. Can't imagine any middleweight even flooring him momentarily, let alone knocking him out.co-sign. hagler was never knockedout in his career, his 3 losses were 2 UD's and 1 SD against leonard.

[Russell]

McCall was beaten into submission??? Never.

Yeah... He was dragged out of drug rehab and he basically had Lewis tee off on his face as he broke down and cried.

He was walking around quite fine despite those shots, though.

Bruno made him go into a shell.

That's about it.

[jyuza]

Pernell Whitaker comes to mind first.
Of course Marvin Hagler belongs there.
I am surprised no one mentioned Roberto Duran yet, in his prime he was simply awesome.

[JohnThomas1]

I am surprised no one mentioned Roberto Duran yet, in his prime he was simply awesome.

:hey

[jyuza]

:hey

Sorry I am quite like that :dead today, so I couldn't watch your post entirely.

[Nemesis]

Was he really as reliable as Hagler? Honestly? Eubank was stopped in his career, regardless of whether he was past his prime or not. We never saw that with Hagler. Eubank was knocked down. He showed signs of weakness. We didn't get any of that from Hagler, who faced better opposition and even more punchers.


He was stopped because of a swollen eye which hadnt healed from the previous Thompson fight (2 months previous) not exactly like he was levelled

Eubank was extremely durable

[JohnThomas1]

Sorry I am quite like that :dead today, so I couldn't watch your post entirely.

Hey no worries mate. I'm glad i got some support LOL

[jyuza]

Hey no worries mate. I'm glad i got some support LOL

:good

[Nemesis]

How many times did Hagler step up in weight and fight a known banger, say at 190lbs?

[NickHudson]

Hey Manassa,

Like your Hagler call. Unbelievable chin.

How about Naseem Hamed? I think confidence is a big part of this thread, and at his best Naz was super confident, elusive and granite chinned...

Re: Chuvalo. I have watched the sustained battering Foreman gave him a number of times, and the severity of it almost brings tears to my eyes.

However, I recently heard Chuvalo say that he wasnt hurt (!), hadnt been hit by many clean shots and felt he could have gone on in the fight. He also said Foreman admitted he was arm weary after the assault, and perhaps would have folded through fatigue. Chuvalo really is a good pick for my money.

On another matter, think you are overly dimissive of Ali. I have prime Ali in this category too - great chin, elusive, great recovery, great ring-savvy.

Bollocks. They were beaten into submission on film, particularly Chuvalo. 'Due to concussion' doesn't mean out cold, I mean beaten into a state where they can't fight back because they're being hurt by punches to the head.

[ChrisPontius]

I don't particularly like him but i think Toney edges it.

He was off his feet more often than Hagler, but then again, Hagler always in at terrific shape and retired at age 34 or something. Toney went on to fight big heavyweights while being in horrific shape himself and past the age of 36, took a shitload of punishment from Samuel Peter yet was only knocked down once, by a jab which seemed to be more balance related than being hurt or anything.



By the way Manassa, i know you don't want to hear this, but Ali definitly deserves to be mentioned here. Your criteria was "We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.".
Well, Ali took on Foreman who was one of the hardest punchers in heavyweight history whe he was at his absolute peak..... never knocked down. He took on one of the best swarmers in history in Frazier, once when he was at his peak and 2 more times later. He took a lot of punishment in the first yet was only knocked down once, was up immediatly and survived the other 2 minutes of the round. Took on yet another one of the hardest punching heavyweights in Liston who just came off his career best wins but was never down or hurt. Fought Shavers when he had very little left yet wasn't floored either.

If that's not "battle tested" then i don't know what is. I think Ali is as knockout proof as any heavyweight ever was: great defense, great (but not iron) chin, great recuperative powers, great survival ability & heart, rarely cut. I don't want to sound like a CM II here, but these are undeniably things. The only factor in "being stoppable" that was not A+ is his chin, but his chin is still very good, A i'd say.

[janitor]

I nominate Oscar Battling Nelson.


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[Doc McCoy]

Hagler took bombs and not only did he not blink, he continued punching as if nothing happened. Mugabi nailed him with an uppercut and Hagler's head flew up and what happened? Hagler just kept coming and kept punching. He's in a class by himself for not only taking shots (which many of the heralded great chins have to do) but because he didn't pause or disrupt what he was doing to clear cobwebs save one time that I know of -and that was after eating what may be the most devastating single shot in history -the Hearns Right.


Yeah that was an amazing shot he took from Mugabi and must have seriously worried "the beast" after Hagler so nonchalantly took it on the chin as it were and just kept on coming. If you watch it in slow-motion it's perfectly timed and right on the point of the chin snapping Marvin's head in a circular motion but it just didn't seem to faze him one bit.

I think the key to Marvin's chin lies about 6 inches due north of that. He just went in with the attitude that there was absolutely no way he was going to get beat or knocked down or even hurt. In his mind he was the destroyer and that was all she wrote.
Tremendous mental atttitude to the game.

[JohnThomas1]

I nominate Oscar Battling Nelson.


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I thought you might have went the way of Grim to be honest.

[janitor]

I thought you might have went the way of Grim to be honest.

I have not forgotten Grim's contribution.

[achillesthegreat]

Ali could be KO'd. Bert Cooper almost did it. IMO if Marciano landed his "Suzie Q" that would do it.
Stop being silly. The guy got after two seconds.

Bert Cooper?! What you been drinking?

[achillesthegreat]

But he was still stopped - Hagler, Monzon, Brown, Gavilan - these men were never stopped.
So had Hagler been stopped against Hearns because of the cut on his nose then that would be indictive of him being knock outable?

It was just one of those things where Eubank was a little older, a little more hittable, was facing a huge natural cruiser who could punch and happened to be in a war with him. The shots bounced off him. Eubank faced the same guy again and wasn't stopped.

Eubank is unstoppable. I can't see anyone ever stopping him. He had a great chin and refused to yield, even if he was being beaten up.

[achillesthegreat]

I'll concede that Eubank was stopped due to superficial damage (although I can't help holding it against a fighter; a 'TKO' on the record just doesn't look as good as no stoppage losses at all), but Hagler was more proven and hurt less times. I have to stick with him.
Eubank wasn't as good as Hagler and thus Hagler never took as much sustained punishment as Eubank did. I think Benn is one of the hardest punchers in history. Plus Eubank faced a puncher who on fight night weighed close to 200 pounds!

[achillesthegreat]

Hey Manassa,

Like your Hagler call. Unbelievable chin.

How about Naseem Hamed? I think confidence is a big part of this thread, and at his best Naz was super confident, elusive and granite chinned...

Re: Chuvalo. I have watched the sustained battering Foreman gave him a number of times, and the severity of it almost brings tears to my eyes.

However, I recently heard Chuvalo say that he wasnt hurt (!), hadnt been hit by many clean shots and felt he could have gone on in the fight. He also said Foreman admitted he was arm weary after the assault, and perhaps would have folded through fatigue. Chuvalo really is a good pick for my money.

On another matter, think you are overly dimissive of Ali. I have prime Ali in this category too - great chin, elusive, great recovery, great ring-savvy.
Hameds a great pick. Can't see him ever being stopped. Again dropped, stunned etc yes but not finished or stopped.

When it all went wrong for him v Barrera the shots just bounced off his chin.

Technically he was BEGGING to be ko'd but his chin and his heart didn't allow it. He was getting caught with left hooks when his chin was in the air and his feet were far from being planted. Yet no effect. All his kds have been wild off balance ones. Plus he fought some good punchers like Kelly and even Barrera.

[achillesthegreat]

The best chin belongs to some old guy who got hit with 5/6oz gloves and never yielded over 15 to 20 rounds.

[The Kurgan]

James Toney was actually legitmately knocked down and hurt by Reggie Johnson, a flush right hand I think it was put him down and he had wobbly legs afterwards.

That's a surprise. I've never seen that fight, so I can't really comment.

[Nemesis]

Hameds a great pick. Can't see him ever being stopped. Again dropped, stunned etc yes but not finished or stopped.

When it all went wrong for him v Barrera the shots just bounced off his chin.

Technically he was BEGGING to be ko'd but his chin and his heart didn't allow it. He was getting caught with left hooks when his chin was in the air and his feet were far from being planted. Yet no effect. All his kds have been wild off balance ones. Plus he fought some good punchers like Kelly and even Barrera.

definetly, you wont find many yanks agreeing but, it would have to be something special to stop Hamed

[Pat_Lowe]

That's a surprise. I've never seen that fight, so I can't really comment.

It came up in a debate here once before. I'll have a look around for it on youtube (thats where I originally saw it). The Jones jr and Peter knock downs were balance issues. But there is no doubt this one wasnt a balance issue. It was a big shot though.

[The Kurgan]

A random shortlist of mentioned boxers that have caught my eye and that I agree with-

James Toney
Naseem Hamed
Micky Walker (I nearly typed in Mickey O'Rourke!)
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Pernell Whitaker
Chris Eubank
Oliver McCall

In my opinion, these are the iron men worth paying attention to, because all of them combined a very solid chin with excellent defensive skills. Ok, so Naseem Hamed may have had a very unorthodox defense that could get him knocked down from balance (ie. the Kevin Kelly fight) but it took an ATG in the form of Marco Antonio Barrera to land frequently on him. Ditto Chris Eubank, who also had ridiculous recovery skills (his first punch off the floor could knock down world class boxers like Michael Watson).

The golden path to being unstoppable (and certainly unknockoutable) requires BOTH a steel chin and a good defense. The only exception is really Oliver McCall, but he kept his defense tight enough to stop himself from receiving sustained punishment from Frank Bruno, who could have stopped him on his feet or on cuts. Short of a mental breakdown, McCall is pretty unstoppable.

However, I still think that the most impressive boxers on the list are Walker, Toney, Hamed, Eubank and Whitaker, because they didn't have the comfort of staying in one weight division. Hamed is the least impressive on the list, because he didn't make such a big leap as the others. It's very hard to make a choice between the lot; I suppose, in a pure sense (ie. not p4p) Toney is the most impressive, because even heavyweights couldn't come close to knocking him out.

[Senya13]

The Johnson KD was a balance also. Reggie caught Toney with a punch when both his feet were parallel to each other. Toney wasn't visibly hurt by them, the way he covered up was usual thing for him to do, and take a look how he almost tricked Johnson, throwing a counter.

[The Kurgan]

I watched it on youtube. Toney was hit flush by a full-force left hand from Johnson, but the way he fell (hands outstretched to break his fall) and got up (after about one and a half seconds) suggests that this was very much a balance KD. He was no more hurt than when Peter knocked him down with that jab; in fact, the knockdowns were almost identical. I don't see how Toney fighting defensively when Johnson unloaded a salvo proves anything other than the fact that Toney knows how to box.

[Shake]

Ali took a fully powered right from Earnie Shavers and managed to stay upright.

George Chuvalo made a fighting style out of his chin.

Jake 'he didn't knock me down' Lamotta.

[Manassa]

I do agree with you. I just think Frazier probably deserves to be in the top ten or so here. Not number one or anything.

I don't think he does. He was stopped due to concussion twice.

People have the wrong idea about this thread. Fighters like Chuvalo and LaMotta could be stopped - beaten into a state where, although they didn't fall down, they could no longer defend themselves. They were vulnerable. You need to take into account a lot more than just sheer durability; defence, survival skills and determination are just as important.

[Denny Cruser]

Hagler is a good pick, but he never test himself at limits (as Michael Spinks fight for example). So Robinson is a perfect pick.
if to take example from HW div, than the one and only Oliver McCall, who tested by hundreds of vicious sparr rounds with prime Tyson, tested by clean shots from ATG hard-hitter Lewis, from very strong puncher Bruno, and hard-hitting Williamson and Butler etc. And he was never even close to KD while taking a number of punches.

[Manassa]

I don't particularly like him but i think Toney edges it.

He was off his feet more often than Hagler, but then again, Hagler always in at terrific shape and retired at age 34 or something. Toney went on to fight big heavyweights while being in horrific shape himself and past the age of 36, took a shitload of punishment from Samuel Peter yet was only knocked down once, by a jab which seemed to be more balance related than being hurt or anything.



By the way Manassa, i know you don't want to hear this, but Ali definitly deserves to be mentioned here. Your criteria was "We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.".
Well, Ali took on Foreman who was one of the hardest punchers in heavyweight history whe he was at his absolute peak..... never knocked down. He took on one of the best swarmers in history in Frazier, once when he was at his peak and 2 more times later. He took a lot of punishment in the first yet was only knocked down once, was up immediatly and survived the other 2 minutes of the round. Took on yet another one of the hardest punching heavyweights in Liston who just came off his career best wins but was never down or hurt. Fought Shavers when he had very little left yet wasn't floored either.

If that's not "battle tested" then i don't know what is. I think Ali is as knockout proof as any heavyweight ever was: great defense, great (but not iron) chin, great recuperative powers, great survival ability & heart, rarely cut. I don't want to sound like a CM II here, but these are undeniably things. The only factor in "being stoppable" that was not A+ is his chin, but his chin is still very good, A i'd say.

Everything you say is true. But seeing Ali hurt and staggering from Joe Frazier on more than one occasion, head sent spinning by Cooper, reeling from Shavers, I can't help but think he was slightly vulnerable. When Ali took a shot, he stopped. When Hagler took a shot, he pounded through it.

[Manassa]

So had Hagler been stopped against Hearns because of the cut on his nose then that would be indictive of him being knock outable?

It was just one of those things where Eubank was a little older, a little more hittable, was facing a huge natural cruiser who could punch and happened to be in a war with him. The shots bounced off him. Eubank faced the same guy again and wasn't stopped.

Eubank is unstoppable. I can't see anyone ever stopping him. He had a great chin and refused to yield, even if he was being beaten up.

It would certainly have reduced Hagler's standing.

[Manassa]

Eubank wasn't as good as Hagler and thus Hagler never took as much sustained punishment as Eubank did

So you're talking about pure 'chin' - that's not what the thread is about. If Hagler was better at avoiding punishment, so be it, that means he was harder to knock out.

[Bill1234]

I disagree. Larry Holmes on the other hand is a different story.

Why do you disagree? Ali was down 5 times in his career, and Cooper almost KO'd him with that left hook. Shavers hurt Ali very badly more than once, Shaver knocked Ali down pretty bad too. You know, Whitaker could be KO'd easier than Holmes or Ali.

[Bill1234]

Yeah, Joe was definitely tested against better punchers than Marciano though.

And we never saw single shots like the ones Moore or Walcott threw at Marciano down Frazier.

The Moore knockdown was a flash knockdown. And he wasn't that badly hurt from the lefthook Walcott dropped him with. That was a perfectly timed left hook that landed right on Marciano's jaw.

[Bill1234]

How many times did Hagler step up in weight and fight a known banger, say at 190lbs?

Why would Hagler step up to 190 to fight a banger? That would be just dumb. Going up 20 some lbs would be kind of hard for him to do wouldn't it? Once you get past the 180 mark, it would be sort of dangerous for a natural middleweight to go up and fight at 190. Those guys are a lot bigger. Now, if he was a lightheavy or something I would question why he didn't too.

[Manassa]

Why would Hagler step up to 190 to fight a banger? That would be just dumb. Going up 20 some lbs would be kind of hard for him to do wouldn't it? Once you get past the 180 mark, it would be sort of dangerous for a natural middleweight to go up and fight at 190. Those guys are a lot bigger. Now, if he was a lightheavy or something I would question why he didn't too.

I think Nemesis' point was that Hagler never proved himself against those type of punchers.

But I don't see it as necessarily relevant. James Toney was hurt more at middleweight than Hagler and he had less fights there - who'd think he could take the punches of Samuel Peter? For all we know, after Hagler added all that muscle (which adds durability), he could do the same.

[quintonjacksonfan]

For a guy who left himself wide open and took punches flush on the jaw

Aaron Pryor had a great chin. He was knocked down 3 times in the first round

but got up in seconds and didn't seem to be hurt. The punch Arguello landed

in the 13th round would of knocked out middleweights

[Bill1234]

I think Nemesis' point was that Hagler never proved himself against those type of punchers.

But I don't see it as necessarily relevant. James Toney was hurt more at middleweight than Hagler and he had less fights there - who'd think he could take the punches of Samuel Peter? For all we know, after Hagler added all that muscle (which adds durability), he could do the same.

Good point, I didn't even think about how Toney did taking punches moving up in weight...

[Duodenum]

This thread seems to really be doing the job in gaining a consensus for Hagler. When Marv was champion, a medical scan of his head revealed that his skull was coated in a one inch thick slab of muscle. (His skull was found to be normal). The average protective sheath for a human is one fourth that depth.

I get the impression that Toney is more defensively skilled than Hagler. Could he have withstood the sort of punishment Marv shrugged off?

Maintaining a sharp physical and mental edge for competition can certainly be highly beneficial in this regard.

When Qawi defended his LH title against Eddie Davis, he dropped Davis quickly, and nearly had him out in round one, before Davis began mounting an impressive resistance off the ropes that allowed him to last into round 11, where Dwight finally finished him. Eddie then rededicated himself to achieving peak physical and mental conditioning for his next title shot, Mike Spinks's first defense of the Universal LH title. It was expected that the lethal Spinks would dispatch Eddie as easily as Qawi nearly did.

Lo and behold, Eddie did not take a backwards step for 12 rounds, and absorbed everything the Jinx unloaded on him. To television viewers at home, it looked like Eddie did enough to earn the decision over Spinks.

Throughout the contest on CBS, every time Davis walked through another Spinks bomb, Gil Clancy would lecture Tim Ryan and the viewing audience, "There's that conditioning, Tim!" This performance was a marvelous object lesson in the value of peak conditioning for withstanding a potent attack. Eddie never displayed a twinge of distress in that challenge, and he never achieved that level of finely tuned preparation again. Hagler always managed to maintain his, both mentally and physically. (The consistently great MW Champs usually do.)

[JohnThomas1]

When Marv was champion, a medical scan of his head revealed that his skull was coated in a one inch thick slab of muscle. (His skull was found to be normal). The average protective sheath for a human is one fourth that depth.


I keep hearing this claim and would like the source if possible.

[Manassa]

I don't understand where this layer of muscle is supposed to be. Where abouts on his head?

[The Funny Man 7]

Sandy Saddler!!!

[rekcutnevets]

I don't know about the report on Marvin. I am assuming it is the muscle that allows you to move your hair forward, or where one would have hair.

[Ramon Rojo]

Ali could be KO'd. Bert Cooper almost did it. IMO if Marciano landed his "Suzie Q" that would do it.


Marciano was a weak puncher.

[ChrisPontius]

I keep hearing this claim and would like the source if possible.

I have another source that claimed there was not a layer of muscle but a boxing glove hidden inside his head.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I have another source that claimed there was not a layer of muscle but a boxing glove hidden inside his head.


Ha ha classic. :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

There is Vitali Klitchko but his comp was pretty poor

[Titan1]

marvin hagler
oliver mccall
mitch green.

[Bill1234]

Marciano was a weak puncher.

Thats why he has an 88% KO rating right? Or why he has 43 KO's out of 49 wins, and why he knocked soooo many people out cold, and put Carmine Vingo into a coma.

[Butterfly^Soul]

Sixto Escobar(Puerto Rico's first world champ) was never hurt in any fight.He had 75 or something like that.

[Manassa]

It's Hagler for me. He took direct hits from Hearns and Mugabi and kept coming.

And Hart, who might have hit harder than both.

[Manassa]

Sixto Escobar(Puerto Rico's first world champ) was never hurt in any fight.He had 75 or something like that.

Great mention. Others in the same league are Kid Gavilan, Billy Graham, Panama Al Brown, Jack Britton, Harry Greb, Sandy Saddler, Carlos Monzon, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Ray Robinson, Benny Leonard, Duilio Loi, Ismael Laguna and Sammy Angott.

[Sonny's jab]

.......... and Eder Jofre, IMO.

[Manassa]

.......... and Eder Jofre, IMO.

Perhaps, although I don't know how many punchers he faced. Sammy Angott faced such debilitating punchers as Ike Williams, Henry Armstrong, Ray Robinson and Lew Jenkins multiple times, and was only ever stopped once when he quit on his stool.

Willie Joyce is another who deserves to be mentioned. Some of these men were exceptionally tough.

[Manassa]

Actually, who can find the most amazing record, durability-wise? Take into account their opposition, how many times they were down or stopped, under what circumstances they were stopped etc.

I'm tempted to go for Jack Britton.

[Sonny's jab]

I think heavyweight journeyman Marion Wilson deserves a mention.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Why do you disagree? Ali was down 5 times in his career, and Cooper almost KO'd him with that left hook. Shavers hurt Ali very badly more than once, Shaver knocked Ali down pretty bad too. You know, Whitaker could be KO'd easier than Holmes or Ali.


Ali was knocked down three times in reality, if we're talking head blows not 'tripping over boots' blows. And he must have been over 50 when "Bert Cooper" floored him.


ps. Hagler is one of the better choices here, perhaps the best. :bbb

[Bill1234]

Ali was knocked down three times in reality, if we're talking head blows not 'tripping over boots' blows. And he must have been over 50 when "Bert Cooper" floored him.


ps. Hagler is one of the better choices here, perhaps the best. :bbb

Sorry, Henry Cooper :oops: . I know Hagler is one of the better choices, I chose him.

[Manassa]

ps. Hagler is one of the better choices here, perhaps the best. :bbb

Although I would replace him with Monzon if we were talking about cuts stoppages as well - tougher skin.

[Minotauro]

McCall, he sparred with Tyson for years and never got knocked out not even dropped and I heard he once ko'd Tyson.

[Bill1234]

McCall, he sparred with Tyson for years and never got knocked out not even dropped and I heard he once ko'd Tyson.

It was Page that dropped him in sparring, but McCall did spar Tyson for years.

[C. M. Clay II]

don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here.

Why not? Those two would have been my first choices. hard to knock out, and hard to hit presents an insurmountable combination. Another one that comes to mind is Sugar Ray Leonard.

[Bill1234]

Why not? Those two would have been my first choices. hard to knock out, and hard to hit presents an insurmountable combination. Another one that comes to mind is Sugar Ray Leonard.

Ali, Robinson, and Leonard are knock outable. Someone like Hagler washardly ever stunned/hurt.

[Duodenum]

I keep hearing this claim and would like the source if possible.

My local college library may have The Boston Globe on microfilm. If anybody else on the boards is attending a college which has The Globe on microfiche, I believe that's the paper which published the story I read around the middle of Hagler's reign. (Other Boston area newpapers also likely reported this scan result.)

[Bill1234]

Everyone is knockoutable, but what makes you say they are clearly when he isn't? We're talking these guys in or around their primes I assume.

Because, all of them were knocked down in their primes, all of them have been hurt in their primes, and ready to go, and all of them are more suceptable to being knocked out than, lets say Hagler or Frazier. I was merely questioning them being his first choices.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Although I would replace him with Monzon if we were talking about cuts stoppages as well - tougher skin.


Yep. Perhaps a better choice for 'unstoppable'. Another member of the unknockoutable brigade had to be Marcos Villasana.

[achillesthegreat]

It would certainly have reduced Hagler's standing.
I don't see how. One thing is sure and that is every fighter is human and thus open to some form of an injury.

[achillesthegreat]

So you're talking about pure 'chin' - that's not what the thread is about. If Hagler was better at avoiding punishment, so be it, that means he was harder to knock out.
I'm not talking solely about chin. I'm also talking heart, conditioning etc

If we are including everything then I could say Wilfredo Benitez in his prime.

[achillesthegreat]

Pernell Whitaker! Definitely unstoppable!

[Manassa]

Why not? Those two would have been my first choices. hard to knock out, and hard to hit presents an insurmountable combination. Another one that comes to mind is Sugar Ray Leonard.

I already said this. Ali and Robinson were both hurt badly numerous times, and hurt mildly on many other occasions. The only time worth mentioning where Marvin Hagler was hurt was the Wigfall fight early in his career.

You see, there are differences. I know you love Ali, but he wasn't the most durable fighter of all time. Neither was Robinson. Yes, they were extremely hard to knock out, but we're talking the elite of the elite here. You can't compare them to men like Billy Graham and Sixto Escobar.

[Manassa]

I don't see how. One thing is sure and that is every fighter is human and thus open to some form of an injury.

An injury such as a severe cut can lead to partial blindness, which could lead to unseen shots and an open defence.

I'm not talking solely about chin. I'm also talking heart, conditioning etc

Well, you are, because you were comparing Hagler and Eubank's chins and how Hagler didn't take as much punishment. Hagler didn't take as much punishment because he was better, and that's why he was harder to knock out.

If we are including everything then I could say Wilfredo Benitez in his prime.

No - Benitez had the reflexes, he had the smarts, but he lacked stamina and durability. He could stave off the likes of Palomino and Cervantes, but if someone forced the fight and made him work - an Armstrong or Napoles - he'd be in a whole new world of trouble.

[Ramon Rojo]

Thats why he has an 88% KO rating right? Or why he has 43 KO's out of 49 wins, and why he knocked soooo many people out cold, and put Carmine Vingo into a coma.

He fought mostly against bums and had to hit them million times before got them down.

[Drew101]

Juan Laporte warrants a mention. And, for that matter, so does Saoul Mamby.

[Titan1]

Juan Laporte warrants a mention. And, for that matter, so does Saoul Mamby.

Defiinitely those two.:good

[ironchamp]

Based on his defence, Mayweather. I don't like coming into threads like these and naming the most recent hype-job, 'cause it makes me look like a dick when you get names from the turn of the century, but really, has anyone ever hit him clean with a real hard shot? Not often. If you were to count about the flush shots he's taken, you're looking at a tiny amount. He has never been in big trouble in a fight. Not once.

You could "Tommy Hearns would KO him", and that may be true, but in all his career, he has shown an incredible amount of talent that has made sure he hasn't ever been hurt big time.

I don't think there are many, if any, elite fighters who you could say the same about. Especially not in a world title career ranging from 130lbs to 154lbs.

I don't know about Hagler. He certainly recuperated quickly, but he was hurt in his career. No doubt did he have an incredible chin, but I think he could have been knocked out. Right now with Mayweather, unless you go to a ridiculous weight, there isn't a boxer who could stop or hurt him.

And I can't stand Mayweather either!

If this was 2003, we could have said the same thing about Roy Jones jr.

[Duodenum]

The only time worth mentioning where Marvin Hagler was hurt was the Wigfall fight early in his career.
Actually, earlier than that, when Wigfall decked Hagler under a car in a Brockton party streetfight. (Once Hagler had been forged into steel by the JR Peltz, Watts, Monroe, Hart & Briscoe Ironworks in Philadelphia, forget about it!)

[achillesthegreat]

Eubank didn't take any sustained punishment in the vast majority of his fights, infact he hardly took any punches in most of his fights, but his chin still never let him down when he was caught with his chin out to dry with a big shot

But in the first Benn and second Watson fights he was battered to a pulp, esp when Benn hurt him to the body and when he quit against Watson (though stayed there to take his beating..) because he got ragged then and would miss and be punished. Also when his eye shut in the first Thompson fight, the right hands he was taking drew gasps. How he survived those three fights and came out with the acclaim in all of them I'll never know, chin was stupid
There was quite a few fights where Eubank got caught hard and regularly i.e. Benn, Watson, Collins, Calzaghe, Thompson and one or two others.

[Doppleganger]

There was quite a few fights where Eubank got caught hard and regularly i.e. Benn, Watson, Collins, Calzaghe, Thompson and one or two others.
What do you make of Calzaghe knocking down Eubank in round 1 of their fight? Does that say anything about his power or was Chris just caught cold?

[C. M. Clay II]

I know you love Ali, but he wasn't the most durable fighter of all time.

I never said that he was the most durable. But the combination of durability and elusiveness of Muhammad does make him extremely hard to knock out.

[achillesthegreat]

An injury such as a severe cut can lead to partial blindness, which could lead to unseen shots and an open defence.
What is your point? Haglers cut impaired him? Eubanks eye was totally shut.

Well, you are, because you were comparing Hagler and Eubank's chins and how Hagler didn't take as much punishment. Hagler didn't take as much punishment because he was better, and that's why he was harder to knock out.
I've already said this. Hagler was better BUT even without that Eubank is still 'unknockoutable'. Plus Eubank was stopped by a 200 pound puncher. What happens when Haglers face takes the force of 200 pounds and not 160 pounds. I'm not talking about chin, I'm talking about withstanding injury.

No - Benitez had the reflexes, he had the smarts, but he lacked stamina and durability. He could stave off the likes of Palomino and Cervantes, but if someone forced the fight and made him work - an Armstrong or Napoles - he'd be in a whole new world of trouble.
He had the durability to go 15 rounds with Leonard, Duran and Hearns. When boxers did try to make him work they just found themself shadowboxing. Leonard, Duran and Hearns tried but failed. Leonard stopped him but it was questionable. Hearns often opened up with both hands in 5, 6 and 7 punch combos. Watch the replay and you'll see he missed 75% of them. Thus Benitez heard the final bell.

You have to take into consideration particular things. If someone is injury prone that is one thing i.e. Cooper, Minter or Klitschko. However the one off stoppage, like Ali or Eubank, because of being human should not be held against them. Admitingly if you are injury prone YET still get through it then you deserve extra credit i.e. Floyd Mayweather. He's been injured in about ten of his last twenty fights, yet he's come through them all to win, even if they have been toughish fights i.e. Castillo, Judah etc

[achillesthegreat]

What do you make of Calzaghe knocking down Eubank in round 1 of their fight? Does that say anything about his power or was Chris just caught cold?
Nothing to do with power. Obviously Calzaghe needed respectable power to do it. I think it has more to do with Eubank always coming out cold, being forced into a tough fight quickly BUT fighting someone who had the speed and skill to make him pay for mistakes. Eubank is pulling back but faced someone with the speed to make him pay for it.

Calzaghe has good power yet Eubank got up in one second and took bigger punches over the course of the fight.

[achillesthegreat]

Three or four out of 52 fights

In the Collins fights he was turning his head a lot and evading back a lot from what I remember
Benn x2, Watson x2, Collins x2, Thompson x2 and Calzaghe. That's 9 fights off the bat. Just like that I've come up with nearly 20% of his bouts being taxing fights.

Eubank did have moves with his feet and head movement but for every shot that he manage to mask in these fights, there is another shot in another fight that made up for it.

[Bill1234]

He fought mostly against bums and had to hit them million times before got them down.

Bull shit. He has a lot of 1 punch KO's. And what about all of his first round KO's?

[Manassa]

Actually, earlier than that, when Wigfall decked Hagler under a car in a Brockton party streetfight. (Once Hagler had been forged into steel by the JR Peltz, Watts, Monroe, Hart & Briscoe Ironworks in Philadelphia, forget about it!)

Apparently he hit Hagler with a bottle from behind, and Hagler rolled under a car to protect himself.

[Manassa]

What is your point? Haglers cut impaired him? Eubanks eye was totally shut.


I've already said this. Hagler was better BUT even without that Eubank is still 'unknockoutable'. Plus Eubank was stopped by a 200 pound puncher. What happens when Haglers face takes the force of 200 pounds and not 160 pounds. I'm not talking about chin, I'm talking about withstanding injury.


He had the durability to go 15 rounds with Leonard, Duran and Hearns. When boxers did try to make him work they just found themself shadowboxing. Leonard, Duran and Hearns tried but failed. Leonard stopped him but it was questionable. Hearns often opened up with both hands in 5, 6 and 7 punch combos. Watch the replay and you'll see he missed 75% of them. Thus Benitez heard the final bell.

You have to take into consideration particular things. If someone is injury prone that is one thing i.e. Cooper, Minter or Klitschko. However the one off stoppage, like Ali or Eubank, because of being human should not be held against them. Admitingly if you are injury prone YET still get through it then you deserve extra credit i.e. Floyd Mayweather. He's been injured in about ten of his last twenty fights, yet he's come through them all to win, even if they have been toughish fights i.e. Castillo, Judah etc

I really have no idea what you're on about. I don't mean to sound rude but you completely lose me when you start going in depth. It's the way you type, or maybe the way you misunderstand things, I don't know.

[achillesthegreat]

You can't say he took punches in the first Watson fight, Collins fights or even the second Thompson fight (until his eye went again). He took a couple of flush left hooks in the second Benn fight but that was about it as far as power shots that night, even though he was clumsy as fuck that night

Benn 1, Watson 2 and Thompson 1 by far and away the fights he took great punishment, significantly more than the rest
Obviously those are the stand out fights for punishment but Collins, Calzaghe and the others were tagging him nicely.

Benn was an almighty beatdown to the body.

The Watson fight in my eyes was basically a shut out until the end.

[Duodenum]

What happens when Haglers face takes the force of 200 pounds and not 160 pounds. I'm not talking about chin, I'm talking about withstanding injury.

This may not be as absurd an idea as it might first appear.

It's a good question Achilles. Hagler never stepped up in weight, because when he went into training, "My weight goes right down." He also described a reduction of a pound or two as producing a noticable improvement in his speed. (His body was clearly a high-performance engine.)

However, it may well be that Hagler was a Harry Greb or Mickey Walker type, who could have more than held his own with many of the big boys, especially with his southpaw style. Mike Spinks weighed only 170 for his title defense against David Sears. When training with Mackie Shilstone for Holmes, Spinks actually reduced his bodyfat from 9.1 percent to 7.2 percent. If he was using Shilstone's services only to reduce his bodyfat down 2 percent from 170 pounds (instead of simultaneously adding muscle), then a Spinks/Hagler match could have been a very plausible idea. Spinks was psyched out by the idea of facing Tyson, as Patterson was Liston. But the marionette Spinks otherwise proved to be a surprisingly good heavyweight. Certainly, Toney, RJJ, and even Iran Barkley are former middleweights who proved themselves able to compete at the world class level as heavyweights, past their youthful MW athletic peaks, and well above their optimal weights. (Barkley retired Coetzee.) It is therefore not a stretch for me to see a peak 160 pound Hagler performing well against full blown heavyweights. Marv was far tougher at 160 than Barkley was, and unlike Toney (against RJJ), nobody ever came close to dropping Marv in combat. It merits mention that when trained to a razor's edge for the original scheduled date of the Schmeling fight, Walker weighed 158, also Hagler's best weight, even when not concerning himself with making the MW limit. (In his blarney-filled autobiography, Walker didn't claim that he would have beaten Schmeling if that bout went off as originally scheduled, but he did assert he would have been much better than he was.)

Let's face it. Although steroid-bolstered, the fact remains that Toney wasn't destroyed as predicted in 24 rounds of boxing against Samuel Peter, or 12 complete rounds against Hasim Rachman, despite being very fat and pushing 40. Do fans really believe he's better now than he would have been against these heavyweights, if he was 15 years younger, and 60 pounds lighter?

[Duodenum]

Apparently he hit Hagler with a bottle from behind, and Hagler rolled under a car to protect himself.

A detail of that altercation which the Boston area media would understandably omit, what with Wigfall and his family also residing in Brockton. (Since it was reported to be at a party, your missing piece fits right in neatly Manassa. Thank you.)

[sjc]

What do you make of Calzaghe knocking down Eubank in round 1 of their fight? Does that say anything about his power or was Chris just caught cold?

Caught cold

He then proceeded to jump straight to his feet, smile, nod and say "good shot" to Calzaghe, then go 12 grueling rounds with arguably the best supermiddleweight ever.

12 rounds in which he was clearly not the better man, and had clearly lost the fight, yet about 10 seconds before the final bell rocked Calzaghe back on his heels with a few beautiful shots. Actually rocked Joe's world like I haven't seen anyone do since.

[thunder06]

p4p? Lamotta.

[achillesthegreat]

If you count clumsy lunges from feather-fisted Collins then yeah, but Eubank was taking the sting off of most of his punches with the way he'd move his head at the last moment

Eubank shut Watson out until he ran out of steam (due to losing 19lb in four days). In the rematch, Eubank was throwing everything at him but Watson just kept on coming, then after four rounds it was one-way traffic (although Watson won the first four too), Watson was putting everything into every punch in the rematch and did it for 10.9 rounds, just battered him! He took so many power shots that night Eubank, Watson looked hynotised that night and a lot of stronger and sharper than ever. I don't know how Eubank took all those punches
Not everyone has to be a one punch artist, it is also accumulative.

Eubank ALWAYS lost that sort of crazy weight prior to a fight. He happily admits it. Eubanks stamina never was legendary.

Watson was possesed in the rematch. Eubank said after 6 rounds he knew he'd have to take his beating and try a surge later on. He said the problem was, Watson was still there later on and he felt shattered. However when Watson put him down, that was the breath he needed and he felt revitalised. You saw how he put EVERYTHING into that uppercut and boom the rest is history.

[achillesthegreat]

This may not be as absurd an idea as it might first appear.

It's a good question Achilles. Hagler never stepped up in weight, because when he went into training, "My weight goes right down." He also described a reduction of a pound or two as producing a noticable improvement in his speed. (His body was clearly a high-performance engine.)

However, it may well be that Hagler was a Harry Greb or Mickey Walker type, who could have more than held his own with many of the big boys, especially with his southpaw style. Mike Spinks weighed only 170 for his title defense against David Sears. When training with Mackie Shilstone for Holmes, Spinks actually reduced his bodyfat from 9.1 percent to 7.2 percent. If he was using Shilstone's services only to reduce his bodyfat down 2 percent from 170 pounds (instead of simultaneously adding muscle), then a Spinks/Hagler match could have been a very plausible idea. Spinks was psyched out by the idea of facing Tyson, as Patterson was Liston. But the marionette Spinks otherwise proved to be a surprisingly good heavyweight. Certainly, Toney, RJJ, and even Iran Barkley are former middleweights who proved themselves able to compete at the world class level as heavyweights, past their youthful MW athletic peaks, and well above their optimal weights. (Barkley retired Coetzee.) It is therefore not a stretch for me to see a peak 160 pound Hagler performing well against full blown heavyweights. Marv was far tougher at 160 than Barkley was, and unlike Toney (against RJJ), nobody ever came close to dropping Marv in combat. It merits mention that when trained to a razor's edge for the original scheduled date of the Schmeling fight, Walker weighed 158, also Hagler's best weight, even when not concerning himself with making the MW limit. (In his blarney-filled autobiography, Walker didn't claim that he would have beaten Schmeling if that bout went off as originally scheduled, but he did assert he would have been much better than he was.)

Let's face it. Although steroid-bolstered, the fact remains that Toney wasn't destroyed as predicted in 24 rounds of boxing against Samuel Peter, or 12 complete rounds against Hasim Rachman, despite being very fat and pushing 40. Do fans really believe he's better now than he would have been against these heavyweights, if he was 15 years younger, and 60 pounds lighter?
Hagler was a finely tuned machine and still is. He is constantly in phenomonal condition. He never had an issue making weight, even until his last fight AND that is while carrying so much muscle.

[achillesthegreat]

Nobody had ever knocked DeWitt or Sims down, Benn more or less knocked them both out (had them in cuckoo-land). That for me proved his power beyond doubt, if the most brutal KO's in history during his KO streak didn't. He just lost speed at 168, and was often fighting light-heavies who could 168 (whereas he could still make middle - only moved up to chase Eubank), and was being hugged and held alnight by these 180+lb bears

(DeWitt and Sims were Hagler's main sparring partners as teenagers and in thousands of rounds Marvin never took either of them off their feet once)


So yeah I agree. Probably the hardest hitting middleweight for me, Nigel
Don't forget he is the only man to knock out G Man and G fought JACKSON twice. Jackson is a frightening puncher.

Not only did Benn lose a touch at 168 but he lost his savage intensity for many fights. Benns mindset never really allowed him to do anything but be all out. He happily admits this despite saying he often tried.

[quintonjacksonfan]

#1 Hagler
#2 Chavez

[Manassa]

p4p? Lamotta.

I strongly disagree. LaMotta had one of the finest chins ever, and it was nearly impossible to floor him - but he could be beaten into a stupor because he lacked a great defence and survival skills. You would never catch someone like Hagler taking such a beating from Ray Robinson, left defenceless and vulnerable like that.

[hobgoblin]

Muhammad Ali

Even when hurt, he had amazing recuperative ability, spirit, and survival skills.

He has the best record against deadly punchers - never been KO'd.

[Duodenum]

Nobody had ever knocked DeWitt or Sims down, Benn more or less knocked them both out (had them in cuckoo-land). That for me proved his power beyond doubt, if the most brutal KO's in history during his KO streak didn't. He just lost speed at 168, and was often fighting light-heavies who could make 168 (whereas he could still make middle - only moved up to chase Eubank), and was being hugged and held alnight by these 180+lb bears

(DeWitt and Sims were Hagler's main sparring partners as teenagers and in thousands of rounds Marvin never took either of them off their feet once)
Just to clarify, Robbie Sims was in fact decked in the final round, when Bobby Czyz dropped him from the unbeaten ranks. (If you recall, Robbie was agitatively pounding on the floor with his glove as he was rising back up. Not a happy camper, as he knew that was Bobby's punctuation mark securing the match.)

[achillesthegreat]

Manassa shall I change the title for you?

[achillesthegreat]

He stopped Barkley and McClellan, which Hearns and Jackson (better KO 'artists') failed to do

Good points there
Forgot about Barkley.

Plus there is the nature of the ko. Calzaghe has stopped loads of guys but doesn't mean his power is like Benn. Same with Aaron Pryor. They stop guys while Benn often renders people unconcious.

[Manassa]

Manassa shall I change the title for you?

No thank you, I'll do it myself if need be.

[Manassa]

Muhammad Ali

Even when hurt, he had amazing recuperative ability, spirit, and survival skills.

He has the best record against deadly punchers - never been KO'd.

I really don't see the logic here. Ali was visibly hurt many, many times - I've seen fights stopped for less than he took against Frazier. Can't say the same about Hagler.

[JohnThomas1]

I have another source that claimed there was not a layer of muscle but a boxing glove hidden inside his head.

:rofl

Lovin' ya work of late!!

[JohnThomas1]

Ali, Robinson, and Leonard are knock outable. Someone like Hagler washardly ever stunned/hurt.

So what? Ali Leonard and Robinson showed the ability to come back from being seriously hurt and still not get knocked out. Now lets say the inconcievable happens and Hagler gets seriously hurt. Ever seen his reaction or abilities under these circumstances? Exactly.

[JohnThomas1]

Because, all of them were knocked down in their primes, all of them have been hurt in their primes, and ready to go, and all of them are more suceptable to being knocked out than, lets say Hagler or Frazier. I was merely questioning them being his first choices.

You've really got no idea at all. Two guys that were never ever knocked out even tho they fought past their primes and here you are touting a guy that was poleaxed while he had the title. Jesus Christ :rofl

[JohnThomas1]

Juan Laporte warrants a mention. And, for that matter, so does Saoul Mamby.

I was just scouring for Laporte right this second!

[Manassa]

So what? Ali Leonard and Robinson showed the ability to come back from being seriously hurt and still not get knocked out. Now lets say the inconcievable happens and Hagler gets seriously hurt. Ever seen his reaction or abilities under these circumstances? Exactly.

I think it's safe to say Hagler wouldn't have just gone into a shell and let himself get pummeled. Too determined for that. When Mugabi landed that hook in the sixth, the one I mentioned earlier, it only angered Hagler who then forced Mugabi back and sent him reeling. Other times, like against Hart and Hearns, when Hagler took a painful shot he closed the distance and stopped himself from taking further punishment.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Speaking of great chins are Laporte fights with Sanchez and Chavez
worth wtaching

[quintonjacksonfan]

Hagler had the best chin ever

[JohnThomas1]

I think it's safe to say Hagler wouldn't have just gone into a shell and let himself get pummeled. Too determined for that. When Mugabi landed that hook in the sixth, the one I mentioned earlier, it only angered Hagler who then forced Mugabi back and sent him reeling. Other times, like against Hart and Hearns, when Hagler took a painful shot he closed the distance and stopped himself from taking further punishment.

Fair calls. He was never massively concussed tho, as you definitely would agree. If he does get sat on his ass hard, and i mean hard, how does he react. Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Holmes, Whitaker, all showed they could get thru the severe fog and debilitating conditions and still survive or win. Could Hagler avoid like an Ali/Whitaker under this? Would or could he fight his way out like a Holmes (a saver is that Larry didn't get thru this against great opponents)? I'm not saying Hagler can't, but one could spin this and say Hagler, in some extreme ways, wasn't quite as proven. I'm sure many might question my question, but i think it's a legitimate comment.

[Sonny's jab]

I really don't see the logic here. Ali was visibly hurt many, many times - I've seen fights stopped for less than he took against Frazier. Can't say the same about Hagler.

How do you think Hagler would fare against Frazier ?
Or against Foreman ?

[Duodenum]

Fair calls. He was never massively concussed tho, as you definitely would agree. If he does get sat on his ass hard, and i mean hard, how does he react. Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Holmes, Whitaker, all showed they could get thru the severe fog and debilitating conditions and still survive or win. Could Hagler avoid like an Ali/Whitaker under this? Would or could he fight his way out like a Holmes (a saver is that Larry didn't get thru this against great opponents)? I'm not saying Hagler can't, but one could spin this and say Hagler, in some extreme ways, wasn't quite as proven. I'm sure many might question my question, but i think it's a legitimate comment.Hagler's customary level of physical conditioning essentially answers this question in my mind. Despite having a glass jaw, Marv's idol Floyd Patterson was never laid out cold, the way Braddock was against Louis, or Liston against Leotis Martin, or Johansson against Patterson himself. Even in his two losses to Liston, Floyd was getting up as the referee finished tolling the count. This was because Patterson always maintained a high degree of fitness. Rapid recovery is one of the payoffs of a disciplined training regimen.

[Manassa]

How do you think Hagler would fare against Frazier ?
Or against Foreman ?

He'd get smashed... :huh

We're talking pound-for-pound.

[Duodenum]

How do you think Hagler would fare against Frazier ?
Or against Foreman ?I think it speaks volumns about Hagler that this question could even be asked.

[groove]

Ali proved he was unknockoutable cuz it's a fact, it never happened against the biggest heavyweight hitters in history. So i don't know how you can't include him.

[C. M. Clay II]

Ali proved he was unknockoutable cuz it's a fact, it never happened against the biggest heavyweight hitters in history. So i don't know how you can't include him.

:good

[bigjake]

Chuvalo, McCall.

i agree,2 tough heavies indeed

[bigjake]

The stand-out for me is Hagler. Hearns confirmed it and Mugabi put an explanation point on it.

Hagler's chin is superior to Quarry, Chuvalo, Cobb, Mercer, and Lamotta.

Hagler fought guys who could punch with not only incredible power, but incredible speed as well. He was never knocked down (the Roldan fight saw a slip and I remember Hagler having that KD overturned), and never wobbled or hurt. Hearns stunned him momentarily and he recovered in seconds after holding on to make sure everything was working after that right uppercut-cross that Hearns NAILED him with WHILE HE WAS COMING IN.

Some guys with granite chins take shots and while they don't go down, they step back and shake it off. They feign bravado but don't be fooled.

Other guys take shots and while they don't go down, their output declines while they clear the cobwebs.

Hagler took bombs and not only did he not blink, he continued punching as if nothing happened. Mugabi nailed him with an uppercut and Hagler's head flew up and what happened? Hagler just kept coming and kept punching. He's in a class by himself for not only taking shots (which many of the heralded great chins have to do) but because he didn't pause or disrupt what he was doing to clear cobwebs save one time that I know of -and that was after eating what may be the most devastating single shot in history -the Hearns Right.

Sorry, but Cobb getting slammed in the nose and then stopping and smiling means more than bravado... it means "damn. Let me get a second here." Hagler barely even blinked.

just 1 point,hagler never had to handle heavyweight punches.seems to me if were talking about the toughest the heavies rule unless you mean p4p

[Bill1234]

Ali proved he was unknockoutable cuz it's a fact, it never happened against the biggest heavyweight hitters in history. So i don't know how you can't include him.

Because they knocked him down and hurt him real bad.

[Bill1234]

You've really got no idea at all. Two guys that were never ever knocked out even tho they fought past their primes and here you are touting a guy that was poleaxed while he had the title. Jesus Christ :rofl

Lots of guys have fought past their primes and didn't get knocked out. Its not unheard of in the least bit.

[Bill1234]

He was hurt real bad once in his career until he was very old, against Cooper. Otherwise his defense, reflexes, chin, and will just wouldn't allow it. If all these other names had faced the hitters he faced they would've been hurt as well.

Don't forget Frazier and Norton. Sure Norton fought a faded Ali, but he still hurt him pretty bad. Ali wasn't exactly running his big mouth off when his jaw got busted (understandably)

[McGrain]

I would go for Eddie Booker. Fought from welter to heavy without being KO'd. Never failed to go the distance even against heavyweights.

Blind in one eye in the last year of his career, he beat Holman Williams and Archie Moore, both all time greats. Retired at 26. Eye problems.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Duo's right, Sims was on the deck vs Czyz.

[Stonehands89]

just 1 point,hagler never had to handle heavyweight punches.seems to me if were talking about the toughest the heavies rule unless you mean p4p

These threads almost always mean in a p4p sense. Otherwise HW's would always land at the top for chin, power, and physical strength. They would also be the "best" fighters of all time, in a head-to-head sense -which is patenly ridiculous because they are perhaps the worst division, at least historically.

[Cojimar 1945]

It would have been interesting to see Hagler's chins tested by big punchers at light heavyweight.

[hobgoblin]

Marv's idol Floyd Patterson

really? interesting fact i did not know. i didn't think floyd patterson was a very popular champion because he is one of the least regarded in terms of head to head amongst the champions.

btw...to those questioning ali: in measuring how hard it is to KO someone - it helps that person if he is a great fighter ;) (as in what is the chance you'll win by a KO loss against this guy). ali had the long arms and the skills to keep dangerous punchers like foreman or frazier at bay and occupied and very few hard reach advantages over him. roberto duran did not have those qualities that i described and that is why he was smashed by hearns despite his chin. same thing with frazier - he had the chin and all but if he had ali's reach foreman would have never done that to him.

yes, people hurt him (but these guys would have hurt ANYONE including p4p hagler IMO - don't tell me that Marvin wasn't hurt as early as round 2 (understandable!) againt Hearns when Hearns broke his hand after repeated wicked punches) but they were 1000 miles away from finishing. ali was like that candle that never went out. to hurt ali is one thing, to KO him is another. the man had sheer magic - the longest time he was on the canvas i think is 2 or 4 seconds!

[hobgoblin]

It would have been interesting to see Hagler's chins tested by big punchers at light heavyweight.

no it would not. it'd be sad, sick, and unfair. it'd be like spinks against tyson.

[Duodenum]

really? interesting fact i did not know. i didn't think floyd patterson was a very popular champion because he is one of the least regarded in terms of head to head amongst the champions. Place yourself in the climate of the times. It helps to remember that Floyd was accepted by mainstream culture as bearer of the most valued distinction in sports. Between Louis and Frazier, he was really the only man of African ethnicity who was. Charles was trapped by the hangover from Louis. When Walcott was dominating his title defense against Marciano, people in the crowd were beginning to compare Jersey Joe to Gans, but even if Walcott had kayoed Rocky late, he would have been too old to inspire youthful fight fans, and he never could have come to be regarded as anything more than a transitional champion. Marciano could never become an icon to black youth in an ethnically polarized culture, while Liston and Ali were both outside the cultural mainstream during the mid 1960s. Liston was an ex-con, and Ali went from emulation of Gorgeous George to promote himself, then to membership in the Nation of Islam, then to refusing military induction. Like Louis, SRR was then an aging icon of the WW II generation of fans. Patterson represented youth, promise, and acceptance, rather than persecution and defiance. For youngsters like Clay and Hagler, the idea of being received by a JFK was more desirable than being forced to the back of a bus. Given the choice, most people would prefer to be accepted, before embracing rejection, agitation, and defiance.

When Liston was preparing to challenge Patterson for the championship, he hired young Clay on as a sparring partner. Because Cassius then idolized Patterson, he was emulating Floyd's peek-a-boo style at the time. This interested Sonny, who was able to practice swinging down at a low target. (This is a very well known story, and there are plenty of old boxing magazines in places like antique shops which have photographs of the two sparring. Of course, it's perfectly common and unavoidable for a champion to employ an eventual conqueror, or otherwise future titlist. Just goes with the territory.)

Like Louis, Patterson made the idea of a black HW Champ palatable to the ethnic majority of the public. If Peter Jackson had preceded Jack Johnson to universal recognition, or if Johnson's public conduct had mirrored that of Jackson, Louis, and Patterson, then Harry Wills and Sam Langford would have certainly obtained the title shots they deserved. Liston and Ali were able to secure championship bids, in large part because of the path Floyd kept open. Liston won the title specifically because Patterson chose to grant him a match, just as Tommy Burns did Jack Johnson over half a century earlier (albeit for a huge payoff). By thus restoring the integrity of the HW Title, Patterson and Burns earned IBHOF inclusion. (Patterson and D'Amato also for skipping business with Jim Norris and the IBC.)

Ali has said that Patterson had the best boxing skills of anybody he faced in the squared circle. Floyd was always in superb condition, and achieved remarkable success, despite his limited size and ability to take a punch. In many respects, he was an excellent practical and instructive example of exemplary conduct, in and out of the ring.

For whatever it's worth, my two cents. You can conclude for yourself whether or not this would make sense, within the context of that period in time.

[groove]

When Liston was preparing to challenge Patterson for the championship, he hired young Clay on as a sparring partner. Because Cassius then idolized Patterson, he was emulating Floyd's peek-a-boo style at the time. This interested Sonny, who was able to practice swinging down at a low target. (This is a very well known story, and there are plenty of old boxing magazines in places like antique shops which have photographs of the two sparring. Of course, it's perfectly common and unavoidable for a champion to employ an eventual conqueror, or otherwise future titlist. Just goes with the territory.)


First i've heard of that and i've read many books on Ali. Who else knows about this? Sounds unlikely IMO but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Duodenum]

First i've heard of that and i've read many books on Ali. Who else knows about this? Sounds unlikely IMO but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.I'm sure somebody on the boards has a profile photo of the two of them in headgear sparring together, young Clay lowered in peek-a-boo posture.

[Doppleganger]

no it would not. it'd be sad, sick, and unfair. it'd be like spinks against tyson.
You think? There's only a 15 pound gap between MW and LHW. Would the hardest LHWs in history really punch that much harder than Hearns, Hart or Mugabi? I don't think so. I think Hagler would take the best that the likes of Foster or Spinks could throw at him myself.

[JohnThomas1]

You think? There's only a 15 pound gap between MW and LHW. Would the hardest LHWs in history really punch that much harder than Hearns, Hart or Mugabi? I don't think so. I think Hagler would take the best that the likes of Foster or Spinks could throw at him myself.

Rare is the time we disagree, but personally i think Spinks and Foster hit substancially harder than these guys. I truly can see Spinks and Foster doing things to Hagler never seen before. Both did spectacular things to natural 175 pounders with fine chins. I'm in the minority but i can definitely envision Spinks stopping Hagler if he gets his big shots in.

[Doppleganger]

Rare is the time we disagree, but personally i think Spinks and Foster hit substancially harder than these guys. I truly can see Spinks and Foster doing things to Hagler never seen before. Both did spectacular things to natural 175 pounders with fine chins. I'm in the minority but i can definitely envision Spinks stopping Hagler if he gets his big shots in.
Fair enough JT. I'm thinking that 175lbs is only about a 9% increase in weight over 160lbs but another factor is that many LHWs won't actually be weighing 175lbs by fight time. Of course some MWs will also be well over 160lbs by fight time also. I think we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt here, seeing as he was hardly hurt at MW. We saw that Hearns could hurt durable LHWs. He floored Dennis Andries no less than 6 times when previously Dennis Andries had only been floored by a full-blown heavyweight in Dave Pearce. Of course the extra 15 lbs (or 13lbs in Tommy's case as he couldn't even reach the LHW limit) meant that Tommy punched harder but that much harder? Absolutely no doubt that Spinks or Foster would hurt Hagler as he had never been hurt before but stop him? I dunno.

[JohnThomas1]

Fair enough JT. I'm thinking that 175lbs is only about a 9% increase in weight over 160lbs but another factor is that many LHWs won't actually be weighing 175lbs by fight time. Of course some MWs will also be well over 160lbs by fight time also. I think we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt here, seeing as he was hardly hurt at MW. We saw that Hearns could hurt durable LHWs. He floored Dennis Andries no less than 6 times when previously Dennis Andries had only been floored by a full-blown heavyweight in Dave Pearce. Of course the extra 15 lbs (or 13lbs in Tommy's case as he couldn't even reach the LHW limit) meant that Tommy punched harder but that much harder? Absolutely no doubt that Spinks or Foster would hurt Hagler as he had never been hurt before but stop him? I dunno.

If Spinks or Foster landed the punches Tommy did vs Andries he would have been carried out on a stretcher IMO, and you know i love Tommy. Spinks P4P power matched the best of Tommy's at any weight i believe. It was sick. Not being cheeky of course, but how many fights of Michael's have you seen at 175?

[Doppleganger]

If Spinks or Foster landed the punches Tommy did vs Andries he would have been carried out on a stretcher IMO, and you know i love Tommy. Spinks P4P power matched the best of Tommy's at any weight i believe. It was sick. Not being cheeky of course, but how many fights of Michael's have you seen at 175?

I don't mind a bit of cheek John, especially if we're talking about the cheeks in our avatars. :yep Admitedly not many mate. I've no doubt at all that Spinks punched harder than Tommy at LHW. No doubt at all. I still believe we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt though. I wouldn't be surprised though if Spinks (or Foster etc) did stop Marv at the higher weight.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't mind a bit of cheek John, especially if we're talking about the cheeks in our avatars. :yep Admitedly not many mate. I've no doubt at all that Spinks punched harder than Tommy at LHW. No doubt at all. I still believe we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt though. I wouldn't be surprised though if Spinks (or Foster etc) did stop Marv at the higher weight.

No worries Dop, sent ya summin on the quiet.

[Doppleganger]

No worries Dop, sent ya summin on the quiet.

Thanks for that mate. Lovely right hand in the 3rd by Spinks too. :good

[dmt]

Mike McCallum

[JohnThomas1]

Thanks for that mate. Lovely right hand in the 3rd by Spinks too. :good

Timed to absolute perfection!

[JohnThomas1]

Mike McCallum

Tho i think Hearns might test him in this regard McCallum is certainly a great shout.

[killerkai1]

Mccall, Hagler, Lennox lewis (badly joking !)

[Cojimar 1945]

What particularly durable light heavyweights did Spinks KO. I know he stopped some guys there but I was unaware of any exceptionally durable guys stopped by him.

[Duodenum]

What particularly durable light heavyweights did Spinks KO. I know he stopped some guys there but I was unaware of any exceptionally durable guys stopped by him.Willie "The Bull" Taylor was known for having a granite chin at the time he faced off with Spinks, one that John Conteh infamously broke his right hand on in 1975. The Jinx practiced his power punching on Taylor for over seven rounds, to the point where his hands were hurting badly. Finally, the referee stepped in to stop it, just as Taylor was cranking up another wild roundhouse left. (That was Spink's warmup for Marvin Johnson.)

[la-califa]

Mustafa Hamsho, Hagler put over fiftysomething stiches in his face & he kept coming, only the referee showed enough mercy to stop it. And noone else came close to stopping him. Very tough fighter.

[thunder06]

Rocky Balboa. End of thread.

[Duodenum]

Rocky Balboa. End of thread.Are you forgetting about the first Clubber Lang scrape?

[Stonehands89]

Mike McCallum

I know that unstoppable doesn't necessarily mean undroppable but McCallum's been down twice -against Tiozzo and then against Herol Graham, 4th round. That hurts his case. I can't mention him in the same page as Hagler.

[heerko koois]

:happy Rudy Koopmans .........our dutch pride.....

[JohnThomas1]

I know that unstoppable doesn't necessarily mean undroppable but McCallum's been down twice -against Tiozzo and then against Herol Graham, 4th round. That hurts his case. I can't mention him in the same page as Hagler.

Jones didn't drop him? Well past it tho, admittedly.

[Doppleganger]

Jones didn't drop him? Well past it tho, admittedly.
I'm fairly sure it was RJJ that dropped McCallum (in the 10th I think) and not Herol Graham, who punched nowhere near hard enough to drop someone of McCallum's chin calibre.

[Mantequilla]

McCallum took a count from Graham from the ref, but it was pretty clear he had slip on some water in the corner after being knocked off balane by the punch.

Arguably a legit knockdown but not hurt in any way.

[Russell]

Yep. Perhaps a better choice for 'unstoppable'. Another member of the unknockoutable brigade had to be Marcos Villasana.

One of my favorite fighters. Man was fuckin' unbelievable.

Ate one of the divisions hardest punchers shots (Garza) like they were nothing. It looked like one of Calzaghe's latter career slapping fits against Villasana.

Fenech also broke both his hands on Marcos' grante head.

[bigjake]

Bollocks. They were beaten into submission on film, particularly Chuvalo. 'Due to concussion' doesn't mean out cold, I mean beaten into a state where they can't fight back because they're being hurt by punches to the head.

your full of shit young fellow.

[the cobra]

James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, and Pernell Whitaker. Outstanding defense with an outstanding chin, it's the definition of unknockoutable, and all 3 fit that definition.

[Russell]

James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, and Pernell Whitaker. Outstanding defense with an outstanding chin, it's the definition of unknockoutable, and all 3 fit that definition.

Whitaker tasted the canvas in less flattering circumstances than Hopkin's and Toney though, correct?

[DINAMITA]

It's JAMES TONEY, closely followed by BERNARD HOPKINS.

See the 1st Sam Peter fight for evidence. Toney cannot be stopped, despite the fact he was a fat middleweight fighting a fully-blown heavyweight with true KO power.

[red cobra]

Think about it, there have been only a stellar handfull of great fighters who have never been knocked out. Maybe this can be the fodder of another thread.

[red cobra]

The quality referred to as "unknockoutable" (sorry) has to be from a combination of having a great chin AND a great, effective defense.

[red cobra]

To amend my previous post, lets add to that an effective OFFENSE as well. That would bring Rocky Marciano to mind. Being stopped, even by a tko, with no knockdown suffered, should disqualify from consideration a guy with just a great chin.

[Bill1234]

Bollocks. They were beaten into submission on film, particularly Chuvalo. 'Due to concussion' doesn't mean out cold, I mean beaten into a state where they can't fight back because they're being hurt by punches to the head.
Chuvalo was never beaten like that. He was swinging back until the ref stopped it.

[Longhhorn71]

Unfortuanately Ali.

Many of the "iron chinned" ones end up not too well off.

[Bummy Davis]

Lamotta was a tough nut to crack

[Robbi]

One guy who without question can match Hagler in this discussion is Wayne McCullough. I have never seen him hurt or wobbled. He was never floored in his entire career. And he fought one of the hardest punchers in featherweight history, Naseem Hamed, when McCullough himself was never a natural at the weight himself. Even years later he wasn't a featherweight. McCullough also took Morales' bombs no problem at super-bantamweight. The division where Morales power was at it's most devastating.

Nobody in boxing history has had a better chin than McCullough. Other fighters maybe fought more often against more punchers. But when it comes to taking punchers others can only equal McCullough not surpass him.

[Robbi]

And another one on McCullough. He looked like a dwarf against Scott Harrison who was physically much stronger than him. Harrison bounced combination after combination off McCullough's head throughout their fight and as usual he went nowhere.

Hagler faced opponents coming up in weight or fighters on par with him physically. McCullough done the opposite. He went up in weight against fighters who were physically stronger than himself and were feared punchers against other naturals at the weight or even the weight above.

McCullough was a natural bantamweight.

[natonic]

Marciano, Ali, Lamotta.

[Quick Cash]

Who was the hardest fighter to stop or knock out due to concussion? Doesn't necessarily have to be the most durable fighter - it could just be one who was really good at not being hit. But don't give me names like Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson here. Those two were hurt badly more than once during their best years. We're looking for fighters who were truly battle tested and stood up to the best.

I'm going for Marvin Hagler. Can't imagine any middleweight even flooring him momentarily, let alone knocking him out.

I believe you've been inconsistent in following your own logic as I do not understand purposely excluding Muhammad Ali. Perhaps he is not possessed of the same remarkable traits of Hagler, but he is definitely worthy of inclusion as far as I'm concerned.

You point to the times he was visibly shaken, that is indicative of an imperfect chin; durability, as you yourself cited, is not the sole criterion in consideration and even scrupulous consideration will not find Ali lacking in this department. Ali had all the qualifications. In any event, any boxer can be stopped under the right set of circumstances especially in the heavyweight division.

There is an infallible way of proving all this and that is that he was never knocked out in all the numerous times he was hurt. He overcame being knocked down against Cooper, Bank, and Frazier, or so you might remember. He was never stopped in his prime, never stopped after, and then only stopped when he was terribly ill.

[JohnThomas1]

Fenech also broke both his hands on Marcos' grante head.

Fenech broke his hands on anyone and everyone.

[ironchamp]

Good posts so far. I have to say Ray Mercer and Tex Cobb.

To be perfectly honest Ray Mercer was lucky that his fight against Evander Holyfield was only 10 rounds as opposed to 12 otherwise he would have been stopped. Don't get me wrong he has a stellar chin but no where near "unknockoutable".

[TommyV]

Surprised none of the fanboys have mentioned Margarito...

[Russell]

To be perfectly honest Ray Mercer was lucky that his fight against Evander Holyfield was only 10 rounds as opposed to 12 otherwise he would have been stopped. Don't get me wrong he has a stellar chin but no where near "unknockoutable".

Did you happen to miss Mercer's fights with Morrison and Cooper?

Cooper hit him so fuckin' hard Mercer was being lifted off his feet.

[ironchamp]

Did you happen to miss Mercer's fights with Morrison and Cooper?

Cooper hit him so fuckin' hard Mercer was being lifted off his feet.

I've watched the Morrison fight probably a couple of dozen times and the Cooper fight quite a few times as well. He had a solid tier I chin but he could be KO'd.

[radianttwilight]

Being "unknockoutable" is more of a styles thing than a durability thing.

I'll throw two out there - Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 130 and James Toney at 168.

[Dave's Top Ten]

I keep hearing this claim and would like the source if possible.

It's the temporalis muscle covering the temple area. Hagler's was found to be unusually thick. It's mentioned in "Sorcery at Caesers". Apparently Hagler wanted it kept quiet because he was concerned that racial comments might be made about his unusual physical attribute. Hearns mentioned after the fight Hagler's ridiculously hard head. Marvelous Marv's tremendous temporalis might have had something to do with it.

Great thread by the way !!

[Pat_Lowe]

Juan LaPorte deserves another mention. Especially since he was never knocked off his feet I don't believe and he fought a huge array of punchers.

[Duodenum]

It's the temporalis muscle covering the temple area. Hagler's was found to be unusually thick. It's mentioned in "Sorcery at Caesers". Apparently Hagler wanted it kept quiet because he was concerned that racial comments might be made about his unusual physical attribute. Hearns mentioned after the fight Hagler's ridiculously hard head. Marvelous Marv's tremendous temporalis might have had something to do with it.

Great thread by the way !!Thank you for affirming that Dave!:good (Better yet, you did it by referencing a book which was a full year away from being published when I first mentioned that fact in post #86 of this thread.)

Now, if only somebody can produce that photograph of Liston sparring with young Clay in training for Patterson. (I still haven't relocated the specific old boxing magazine of mine which contains that particular article yet.)

The Boston newspaper in which I first read the story about Hagler's head scan reported that he and his camp received this information in good humor, but deigned to make any kind of noteworthy discussion over this revelation. For that reason, most outside of Marv's New England base either never knew about it, or dismissed it as hyperbole. But all boxing fans in Massachusetts and surrounding states were fully aware of it at the time.

While Hagler and the Petronellis were more than happy to accommodate press coverage of Marv's disciplined training and conditioning regimen, some rumour mongers speculated that they were reticent about the discovery of his "natural headgear" because they were using some technology like transcranial electro-stimulation to strengthen and thicken his temporalis, something they wanted to keep secret from opposing camps to maintain a unique advantage. These theorists also supposed that his head was kept shaved for the purpose of having electrodes attached to his scalp for these treatments.

Although certain exercises and modalities can indeed be applied to the specific objective of thickening this challenging to develop musculature, it was probably an inherent trait in his genes, a genetic endowment apparently shared by some extent with his half brother Robbie.


When considering the question of imperviousness, the ability to withstand body punishment has to be taken into account. Willie Pastrano would easily merit consideration if not for the left hook to the labonza Jose Torres dropped him with, or the one Joe Frazier sent Jerry Quarry to a knee with.

On this and other Classic threads, Juan LaPorte has not been overlooked, and he squared off with a number of murderous body punchers.

Because of a single match, I'm bringing up the name of Roy "Tiger" Williams. For eight rounds, he absorbed massive right hand after massive right hand to the body from Earnie Shavers. "Kill the body, and the head will die," does not always work, and despite Earnie's relentless and highly intelligent attack, Tiger came back in round nine almost as if the previous 24 minutes of action had not taken place at all. Immediately after Shavers experienced the unfamiliar ritual of touching gloves to begin the final round, he got knocked to a neutral corner with a nasty cross, leading to a standing knockdown. Despite the incredible body beating Williams had sustained, he had the energy to raise his arms aloft in triumph as the count began, energy Shavers would not be able to match at the conclusion of the round.

Seven seconds after referee Buddy Basilico finished the eight count, Earnie came off the ropes with a right which nailed Williams on the sweet spot of the chin as the big man was closing in for the kill. Ten seconds after that, Roy had him pinned in the other neutral corner, pounding away with hooks and crosses. After the referee broke the subsequent clinch, Shavers hammered away with more huge rights downstairs as they both staggered about the ring. Finally, Earnie pinned him in the same corner where Shavers himself had taken the count at the beginning of the round, and raked Tiger over the ropes as "washerwoman" Chuvalo once worked over DeJohn.

Just as Henry Clark did in Earnie's previous outing, Williams dropped to the deck several seconds after Shavers stopped punching him, a rather unusual sort of delayed reaction which sometimes seemed unique to Earnie's victims. But Tiger came within 20 seconds of finishing the scheduled distance on his feet, and nearly took Shavers out as the final stanza began.

Nobody ever stood up to the same amount of punishment from Earnie that Williams did, and that was the most relentless sustained barrage Shavers ever produced. Future victim Ken Norton (who was ironically providing color commentary for the Shavers/Williams telecast) would later be dropped by a single Shavers right to his muscular body, the same right which he witnessed Tiger withstand dozens of. This was the very best version of Earnie, well conditioned, and with recent ten round experience against Henry Clark and Rochelle Norris, trials which aided him in battling through the type of situation where ringside spectator Foreman had earlier wilted in submission to Ali.

Earnie did not enjoy the advantages in skill, size, chin, youth or physical strength that Foreman possessed going into Kinshasa. But Shavers had squared off with much harder competition, understood what it was like to be extended, stunned, exhausted and defeated, and knew how to hang on when necessary. At 31, he could claim a maturity which George lacked in Africa. Earnie was far more ringwise and intelligent in his execution, and did not mentally fall apart when Williams repeatedly took the very best he had.

I believe Foreman would have certainly defeated more of the other great heavyweights in history, but I doubt he could have done as well against Ali as Shavers managed in his first title bid. Earnie buckled Muhammad repeatedly, in a way he wasn't able to do to Williams, despite delivering much more punishment to Tiger. Only a GOAT caliber hitter like Shavers, or a GOAT caliber combination puncher like Joe Louis would have had a chance to take out Roy Williams when Earnie barely managed to pull it off.

[Russell]

Great stuff, Duodenum.

On Shaver's and people absorbing his freakish shots...

Didn't Ron Stander exhaust Shaver's before stopping him in 5 using no other strategy but catching punches with his face?

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the extent of it, because I have seen Stander/Norton and the punishment Stander takes without even looking like going down is unbelievable.

[Duodenum]

Great stuff, Duodenum.

On Shaver's and people absorbing his freakish shots...

Didn't Ron Stander exhaust Shaver's before stopping him in 5 using no other strategy but catching punches with his face?

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the extent of it, because I have seen Stander/Norton and the punishment Stander takes without even looking like going down is unbelievable.I imagine this was indeed the case with Stander/Shavers, combined with the lack of experience and sufficient conditioning Earnie would later bring to bear against Williams.

Russ, did you manage to have a gander at Frazier/Stander before those litigious punks now running youtube had it pulled? Big Ron hardly took a step backwards in that one, actually forcing Joe to his toes to utilize lateral movement and angles. Just like Quarry, Ron's facial skin let him down against Smoke in a way he managed to avoid with Earnie. If that happens to the wrong part of the head, toughness doesn't help very much.

Watching Frazier outmaneuver Stander with such surprising grace and ease at the end of round five with his back to the corner makes it more understandable why the outcome of his next bout was such a surprise to so many. After all, if he could do it with Stander, why shouldn't he be able to repeat that mobile performance with Foreman? (In his rematch with George, an older and heavier Joe actually outweighed Foreman by a half pound, yet nearly negotiated his way past the middle rounds with elusive movement. A younger, pre FOTC Frazier, around 200 pounds, might just have been able to carry it off. If Joe was still on his feet after ten rounds, George may have found himself drowning in the deep water of attrition at the Nassau Coliseum.)

[JohnThomas1]

I believe Foreman would have certainly defeated more of the other great heavyweights in history, but I doubt he could have done as well against Ali as Shavers managed in his first title bid. Earnie buckled Muhammad repeatedly, in a way he wasn't able to do to Williams, despite delivering much more punishment to Tiger. Only a GOAT caliber hitter like Shavers, or a GOAT caliber combination puncher like Joe Louis would have had a chance to take out Roy Williams when Earnie barely managed to pull it off.

Personally i would have been scared to see Foreman fighting the version of Ali Shavers did. Ali's reflexes were all but gone at that point.

And on the Williams point, i'd back Tyson at his best to take him out, especially given his stamina issues. Foreman, Liston and numerous others would be a great chance of turning the trick too IMO. Shavers is the only hard punching contender he ever fought and he got stopped. Earnie's delivery was harder comparable to even Foreman and Liston.

[Lobotomy]

Personally i would have been scared to see Foreman fighting the version of Ali Shavers did. Ali's reflexes were all but gone at that point.Personally, I find it more horrifying to rewatch Shavers fighting the version of Ali who lost the title to Leon Spinks in his next defense.

Foreman hammered Ali's body, but rarely got off a solid shot to his head. When Ali defeated Leon, and in his final match with Berbick, it was obvious he was misfiring, but his head remained an elusive target. (In fact, I scored Ali/Berbick 97-93 in favor of Muhammad, but was relieved the judges saw it differently, as his retirement was long overdue. But if anybody who hasn't seen it scores it with the sound off and an open mind, they might be surprised at the result of their tabulations.)

Unlike George, Earnie kept landing stunning singular right hands to Ali's head, but lacked the true sense of recognizing when he was in genuine distress. (This is not entirely unknown among one punch specialists. Combination punchers like Louis sometimes tend to be more proficient at this.) Earnie had faster hands and longer arms than George.

And on the Williams point, i'd back Tyson at his best to take him out, especially given his stamina issues. Foreman, Liston and numerous others would be a great chance of turning the trick too IMO. Shavers is the only hard punching contender he ever fought and he got stopped. Earnie's delivery was harder comparable to even Foreman and Liston.I think Sonny would choose an easy decision behind his ramrod jab over attempting to take Williams out.

My suspicion is that George wanted no part of Tiger after watching him absorb Earnie's bombs. He'd had enough of somebody taking his best without flinching, and was probably having some very unpleasant flashbacks, causing him to leave ringside before it was over.

Tyson would definitely NOT take Roy Williams out in my estimation, any more than he was able to take out Mitch Green, Tony Tucker or Bonecrusher Smith. As was the case in those three instances, Mike would settle for a comfortable decision. Tiger's height posed problems for Earnie. Not only is Tyson not as tall as Shavers, but he has much shorter arms, and could be physically neutralized in close. Even a rusty and poorly prepared Holmes just going through the motions of collecting a three million dollar payday gave Mike some difficulty with his height and reach.

As Larry openly and humorously admits, NOBODY wanted to fight Tiger Williams, himself included. Earnie was coaxed by Ali into taking him on with the promise of a title shot should he win. It's not Tiger's fault that everybody was ducking him! (Then again, maybe he deserves some of the blame for scaring the hell out of the other heavyweights by the way he stood up to Shavers. Williams was only 29 years old at the time, and top contenders weren't exactly beating a path to his door afterwards.)

Jeff Merritt and Walter Moore also had pretty decent firepower among Tiger's other opponents. After he got through with the Futch trained 18-0-0 Moore, what sane contender would have been willing to tangle with him?

Yeah, Shavers did manage to knock him out, but only after an all out eight round attack, and barely within the ten round limit after nearly being stopped himself.

Ducking rugged challenges is one thing, but what conclusions are we to form when the gladiator in question is the one being avoided?

[laxpdx]

Offhand, prime Hagler.

[Doppleganger]

I don't understand where this layer of muscle is supposed to be. Where abouts on his head?
Apologies if this has already been answered but couldn't be arsed traipsing through the thread. :p

I believe it's the membrane or sheath that lines the inside of the skull, that helps cushion the brain against any violent impacts. Or it could be just a boxing glove after all. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Personally, I find it more horrifying to rewatch Shavers fighting the version of Ali who lost the title to Leon Spinks in his next defense.

Foreman hammered Ali's body, but rarely got off a solid shot to his head. When Ali defeated Leon, and in his final match with Berbick, it was obvious he was misfiring, but his head remained an elusive target. (In fact, I scored Ali/Berbick 97-93 in favor of Muhammad, but was relieved the judges saw it differently, as his retirement was long overdue. But if anybody who hasn't seen it scores it with the sound off and an open mind, they might be surprised at the result of their tabulations.)

Unlike George, Earnie kept landing stunning singular right hands to Ali's head, but lacked the true sense of recognizing when he was in genuine distress. (This is not entirely unknown among one punch specialists. Combination punchers like Louis sometimes tend to be more proficient at this.) Earnie had faster hands and longer arms than George.


You might have misread me. I mean i would find it more horrifying to see the Foreman from Zaire fighting the actual Ali from the Shavers fight. Ali was crap by the time he fought Earnie as evidenced by Shavers, anything but a sharpshooter or pinnacle level boxer landing numerous right hands. Foreman is countless leagues above Shavers as a fighter. Your card for Ali - Berbick is interesting, i've heard it might have been close. I'll have to rewatch.

I think Sonny would choose an easy decision behind his ramrod jab over attempting to take Williams out.

Arguable, KO's often come about when boxers aren't going after them. Liston is definitely not going to shelf the right hand and left hook.


[Only registered and activated users can see links] Re: Who was closest to being 'unknockoutable'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Personally i would have been scared to see Foreman fighting the version of Ali Shavers did. Ali's reflexes were all but gone at that point.

Personally, I find it more horrifying to rewatch Shavers fighting the version of Ali who lost the title to Leon Spinks in his next defense.

Foreman hammered Ali's body, but rarely got off a solid shot to his head. When Ali defeated Leon, and in his final match with Berbick, it was obvious he was misfiring, but his head remained an elusive target. (In fact, I scored Ali/Berbick 97-93 in favor of Muhammad, but was relieved the judges saw it differently, as his retirement was long overdue. But if anybody who hasn't seen it scores it with the sound off and an open mind, they might be surprised at the result of their tabulations.)

Unlike George, Earnie kept landing stunning singular right hands to Ali's head, but lacked the true sense of recognizing when he was in genuine distress. (This is not entirely unknown among one punch specialists. Combination punchers like Louis sometimes tend to be more proficient at this.) Earnie had faster hands and longer arms than George. Quote:


And on the Williams point, i'd back Tyson at his best to take him out, especially given his stamina issues. Foreman, Liston and numerous others would be a great chance of turning the trick too IMO. Shavers is the only hard punching contender he ever fought and he got stopped. Earnie's delivery was harder comparable to even Foreman and Liston.
I think Sonny would choose an easy decision behind his ramrod jab over attempting to take Williams out.

My suspicion is that George wanted no part of Tiger after watching him absorb Earnie's bombs. He'd had enough of somebody taking his best without flinching, and was probably having some very unpleasant flashbacks, causing him to leave ringside before it was over.

I think that might be a bit of a stretch. Ron Lyle was dropped by Shavers, took his best then left him flat. 4 months later Foreman ko'ed him in a great fight. Williams of course was reputed to be a feared gym fighter around the time, but the truth is he never did much at all for all his reputation. His career is littered with consistent losses and what is his best win? These guys just aren't that good. Shavers has that enormous power but it's all he had and weaknesses were aplenty.

Tyson would definitely NOT take Roy Williams out in my estimation, any more than he was able to take out Mitch Green, Tony Tucker or Bonecrusher Smith. As was the case in those three instances, Mike would settle for a comfortable decision. Tiger's height posed problems for Earnie. Not only is Tyson not as tall as Shavers, but he has much shorter arms, and could be physically neutralized in close. Even a rusty and poorly prepared Holmes just going through the motions of collecting a three million dollar payday gave Mike some difficulty with his height and reach.

Lets get to the core - Tucker, Smith and probably even Green are better fighters that Williams. Tyson was actually quite decent against taller fighters (were they ever shorter) and Williams clinching skills were not exactly silken.

As for Holmes, it was a brilliant exhibition by Tyson, up against a cagey old durable great who knew all the tricks. Holmes gave him trouble? Holmes barely landed a punch, and certainly nothing worth noting. Subsequent Holmes efforts show Tyson's effort to be excellent.

As Larry openly and humorously admits, NOBODY wanted to fight Tiger Williams, himself included. Earnie was coaxed by Ali into taking him on with the promise of a title shot should he win. It's not Tiger's fault that everybody was ducking him! (Then again, maybe he deserves some of the blame for scaring the hell out of the other heavyweights by the way he stood up to Shavers. Williams was only 29 years old at the time, and top contenders weren't exactly beating a path to his door afterwards.)

His reputation far exceeded his ability tho. He never beat a really decent fighter. Maybe he didn't fulfill his promise, but the facts are he never did much at all.

Jeff Merritt and Walter Moore also had pretty decent firepower among Tiger's other opponents. After he got through with the Futch trained 18-0-0 Moore, what sane contender would have been willing to tangle with him?

Walter Moore beat whom? This was actually Williams third last fight and he'd already been beaten by Shavers.

Yeah, Shavers did manage to knock him out, but only after an all out eight round attack, and barely within the ten round limit after nearly being stopped himself.

A fantastic action fight with very little skill on display - the type most enjoy.

Ducking rugged challenges is one thing, but what conclusions are we to form when the gladiator in question is the one being avoided?

Well beating him would realistically do next to nothing for anyone because he himself hadn't beaten anybody. Honestly, if Shavers can beat him he's just not top 10 material.

[Mendoza]

For my money, it’s Sandy Saddler. Sandy was old school tough. He could fight all night, foul, and flat out take a punch.

Saddler was only stopped once in his entire career of 162 known fights! The stoppage loss happened in his second pro fight.