Boxing v MMA [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 07:17 PM

Couture.

Find footage of Lewis sparring with that guy who went on to do MMA.

He trips Lewis over. So Lewis gets angry, tries to fight with him and the guy just throws Lewis to the floor again. Any MMA fighter would do the same and then pound his face in.

Ok this is ridiculous logic. Lewis/Williams were BOXING, SPARRING with 18oz gloves. There are no takedowns in boxing therefore Lewis wasnt defending or EXPECTING to be taken down. I'm sure Williams would easily be able to do that boxing Randy Couture as well.

And Lewis ended up beating the living piss out of Williams that they ended up kicking Williams out of the sparring session.

Lewis would lose in MMA to Couture. Couture would lose in boxing to Lewis. No MMA fighter can compete with the striking ability of a boxer, kickboxer or Muay Thai practitioner. MMA's striking is incredibly amatuerish when you compare it to the striking combat sports that I mentioned above. I watch MMA, boxing, Muay Thai but MMA has become increasingly difficult to watch. I hate its fanbase and I just cant seem to appreciate their striking skills as much as other sports like boxing or Muay Thai. I'd like to thank MMA because MMA/UFC in 2004 actually got me interested in boxing again and ive been a hardcore boxing fan ever since and always will. MMA fighters are(well some of them) are well rounded in that they can do a little bit of everything. But what they can do VERY WELL is ground fighting. Thats the background they come from. They are wrestlers, judokas, BJJ, Sambo. Im a striking purist and thats what I want to see. Thats why I love boxing, Muay Thai. If you want worldclass striking you simply do NOT watch MMA. In my opinion, MMA's rise to the top is FAR EASIER than boxing where many have hundreds of amatuer fights and 30 pro fights before they even get a sniff at a title shot. You have people entering the UFC with 7-8 pro fights and people winning the TUF reality show with absolutely NO PRO EXPERIENCE whatsoever.

When people bring up who would win in a real fight, its debatable. A real fight UNLIKE MMA is unpredictable, without predetermined environments, rules, judges, crowds, refs, equipment, opponents. Some of the stuff they do in MMA can be COMPLETELY impractical in a real fight. I guarantee you if you ask ANY MMA fighter what theyd try to do in a real fight theyd say theyd try to keep the fight standing. Its what BJ Penn, Randy Couture, Bas Rutten have all said would be their gameplan. "To try to end it on the feet to avoid the ground." Because when you're on the ground you're vulnerable in many real life situations. People can come in and stomp on you or the surface may not be tailored to ground fighting ie. concrete, rocks etc. Even the pioneers of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu have said BJJ is impractical in many real life situations. What BJJ is effective in is MMA where the rules are tailored to ground fighting.

MMA fighters have lost in REAL FIGHTS before. Some of them include Tito Ortiz, Don Frye, Sakurai.

MMA is a sport. Just like boxing. They are both forms of sport entertainment. Despite MMA fanboys opinion, MMA does not simulate a real fight. No combat sport does. They are all just different forms of fighting and MMA just so happens to be the least limited but STILL with many rules to obide by.

Give me a great boxing match over a great MMA match anyday of the week. Im still waiting for an MMA fight to match Margarito/Cotto. Hell, i'll take Pavlik/Taylor 1 over any MMA fight. Dont get me wrong there are some good MMA fights but the rules in boxing just enables it to be dramatic, with ebb and flow, sudden changes of momentum. In MMA, its different. A fighter is in trouble, he goes to the ground or the ref stops the fight.

I'm done my rant.:p

TommyV

08-31-2008, 07:30 PM

Yes this has been done a bazillion times. :-((

Lennox wins a boxing match.
Couture wins an MMA match.

Thread closed. :roll:

Co-sign.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 07:31 PM

Not worth debate. Boxers are trained to box. MMA guys are trained in all types of different shit. Isn't it usually the guy with more weapons that wins.

Thats the thing. In a real fight thats all thrown out the window. In MMA, you have a guy like Brock Lesnar who is a mediocre striker and a fantastic wrestler. In other words hes ONE DIMENSIONAL. Just like some other UFC fighters who can USE ONLY their wrestling ability to win fights. What happened to the notion that MMA fighters have to be well rounded to win fights? You dont. In fact you can go VERY far in the sport if you happen to be athletic and a great wrestler because MMA is absolutely tailored to ground fighting.

In a REAL fight, just like in boxing, MMA styles matter. But not only that the environment, situation makes a difference as well. And if Lesnar found himself exchanging punches with David Haye, Lesnar would be taking a nap. And unlike in MMA, Lesnar wouldnt be able to dictate where the fight takes place, the environment, situation dictates where the fight takes place, NOT the fighter.

Ive read this story multiple times and im not sure how valid these sources are but I did read it from an MMA forum. Basically Legendary UFC fighter Royce Gracie challenged RJJ to a fight in MMA back in the 90's. RJJ said if im going to fight you, why dont we just fight outside on the street.

Royce Gracie said NO. I guess rolling around on solid concrete isnt the same as rolling around on soft comfortable mats.

Addie

08-31-2008, 07:35 PM

Thats the thing. In a real fight thats all thrown out the window. In MMA, you have a guy like Brock Lesnar who is a mediocre striker and a fantastic wrestler. In other words hes ONE DIMENSIONAL. Just like some other UFC fighters who can USE ONLY their wrestling ability to win fights. What happened to the notion that MMA fighters have to be well rounded to win fights? You dont. In fact you can go VERY far in the sport if you happen to be athletic and a great wrestler because MMA is absolutely tailored to ground fighting.

In a REAL fight, just like in boxing, MMA styles matter. But not only that the environment, situation makes a difference as well. And if Lesnar found himself exchanging punches with David Haye, Lesnar would be taking a nap. And unlike in MMA, Lesnar wouldnt be able to dictate where the fight takes place, the environment, situation dictates where the fight takes place, NOT the fighter.

Ive read this story multiple times and im not sure how valid these sources are but I did read it from an MMA forum. Basically Legendary UFC fighter Royce Gracie challenged RJJ to a fight in MMA back in the 90's. RJJ said if im going to fight you, why dont we just fight outside on the street.

Royce Gracie said NO. I guess rolling around on solid concrete isnt the same as rolling around on soft comfortable mats.

A guy at my workplace, only 17, but he trains in MMA and is supposed to be really good at it. I told him to throw a 4 punch combination, and it wouldn't have looked out of place coming from a girl. His straight right was ordinary, but he couldn't throw his left with any conviction, and was almost incapable of throwing a hook and a uppercut because of the angles you need to create to get leverage. This guy has been training for a year in MMA, and apparently he can't even throw a left hook.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 08:09 PM

A guy at my workplace, only 17, but he trains in MMA and is supposed to be really good at it. I told him to throw a 4 punch combination, and it wouldn't have looked out of place coming from a girl. His straight right was ordinary, but he couldn't throw his left with any conviction, and was almost incapable of throwing a hook and a uppercut because of the angles you need to create to get leverage. This guy has been training for a year in MMA, and apparently he can't even throw a left hook.

HAHA,

I have a very similar story. Ive been training boxing for about 2 years. I decided to just take a 2 week free trial at an MMA gym. So I go to the boxing class which is apparently training amatuer boxers and I was easily the best guy there. And im not even that good. At my boxing gym I routinely get KILLED by the better amatuers there. At this MMA gym, these guys could barely even throw combinations, their footwork was terrible, their conditioning was terrible. I actually sparred with some of the boxers there and I literally didnt even throw my right hand. It was an absolute joke, I threw nothing but jabs and uppercuts on these guys. The scary part was that the guys I was sparring were sporting like 4-0 MMA Amatuer records.

Obviously its different once you reach a higher level of MMA but most of the guys you see in MMA, especially the wrestlers, BJJ guys have very mediocre striking skills. Just look at a guy like Tito Ortiz who couldnt even land a punch in his last fight. You put a guy with great hands in against that guy and that guy doesnt see the final bell.

There are only a select few in MMA that id call well rounded. Literally only a SELECT few. I could count them on one hand.

eze

08-31-2008, 08:16 PM

HAHA,

I have a very similar story. Ive been training boxing for about 2 years. I decided to just take a 2 week free trial at an MMA gym. So I go to the boxing class which is apparently training amatuer boxers and I was easily the best guy there. And im not even that good. At my boxing gym I routinely get KILLED by the better amatuers there. At this MMA gym, these guys could barely even throw combinations, their footwork was terrible, their conditioning was terrible. I actually sparred with some of the boxers there and I literally didnt even throw my right hand. It was an absolute joke, I threw nothing but jabs and uppercuts on these guys. The scary part was that the guys I was sparring were sporting like 4-0 MMA Amatuer records.

Obviously its different once you reach a higher level of MMA but most of the guys you see in MMA, especially the wrestlers, BJJ guys have very mediocre striking skills. Just look at a guy like Tito Ortiz who couldnt even land a punch in his last fight. You put a guy with great hands in against that guy and that guy doesnt see the final bell.

There are only a select few in MMA that id call well rounded. Literally only a SELECT few. I could count them on one hand.

:lol: I train with a professional MMA fighter everyday and I can tell you, boxing striking is COMPLETELY different from mma striking, you have to be prepared at all times for a takedown and other things.

BTW Sparing a 4-0 MMA professional is nothing. Most MMA fighters are fed nobodies in their first fights.

Hatesrats

08-31-2008, 09:15 PM

MMA is the Toughman competion of the new Millenuim.

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:32 PM

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 09:33 PM

:lol: I train with a professional MMA fighter everyday and I can tell you, boxing striking is COMPLETELY different from mma striking, you have to be prepared at all times for a takedown and other things.

BTW Sparing a 4-0 MMA professional is nothing. Most MMA fighters are fed nobodies in their first fights.

I can see what you're saying but if you're worrying about getting taken down than MMA is not for you.

There are obviously some differences but the bottom line is the skills learned in boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing are absolutely applicable to MMA. Its no secret that a K-1 level striker in Crocop walked right into MMA and became the most dynamic striker in the sport. Its no secret that former pro boxers Marcus Davis, Chris Lytle are considered dangerous on their feet.

The fighter I sparred was an amatuer and he wasnt bad because his tools were limited. He was bad because he was just a terrible striker who had no idea what he was doing. Hands are an incredibly important tool in striking and if you cant use them effectively you're pretty much screwed.

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:34 PM

MMA is a sport. Just like boxing. They are both forms of sport entertainment. Despite MMA fanboys opinion, MMA does not simulate a real fight. No combat sport does. They are all just different forms of fighting and MMA just so happens to be the least limited but STILL with many rules to obide by.

MMA grew out of people wanting to test their abilities to see if they would work in a fight. So, yes, there are rules, and some folks ONLY train for the sport, other train for self defense.

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:38 PM

MMA is absolutely tailored to ground fighting.

Huh? I've seen this go in cycles. Bottom line, strikes are cumulative damage. A good fighter will use strikes to set up a submission.

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:39 PM

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 09:39 PM

I watched an MMA vs Boxer and the boxer never got a punch off. Got his legs kicked out from under him. Try again.

Please dont bring up the Arthur Williams example.

The boxers who have gotten their legs kicked out from under them probably had no business being in the ring. They were either completely washed up or werent very good, athletic to begin with.

If wrestlers can pick up passable striking skills within 4-5 months (Koscheck) than im sure an elite professional boxer could as well. People severely overrate the striking ability of MMA fighters. Most of them cant even check a low kick. Some of the worst striking displays ive ever seen have come from MMA and some of them have been at the highest level of the sport.

MMA striking is very predictable, simple, ordinary. When they arent throwing 1-2's, they are throwing sloppy low kicks. The striking is not dynamic, they dont throw from various angles, they dont throw combinations, they dont go to the body. The defense is also pretty damn atrocious as well. Dont get me wrong there a few solid boxers in MMA like BJ Penn, GSP, KJ Noons, Anderson Silva but for the most part the striking is just awful to watch.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 09:42 PM

MMA grew out of people wanting to test their abilities to see if they would work in a fight. So, yes, there are rules, and some folks ONLY train for the sport, other train for self defense.

Similar to boxing. Some train for the sport, some train for self defense. MMA got started to see which style of fighting was most effective in that context of fighting.

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:49 PM

Please dont bring up the Arthur Williams example.

The boxers who have gotten their legs kicked out from under them probably had no business being in the ring. They were either completely washed up or werent very good, athletic to begin with.

If wrestlers can pick up passable striking skills within 4-5 months (Koscheck) than im sure an elite professional boxer could as well. People severely overrate the striking ability of MMA fighters. Most of them cant even check a low kick. Some of the worst striking displays ive ever seen have come from MMA and some of them have been at the highest level of the sport.

MMA striking is very predictable, simple, ordinary. When they arent throwing 1-2's, they are throwing sloppy low kicks. The striking is not dynamic, they dont throw from various angles, they dont throw combinations, they dont go to the body. The defense is also pretty damn atrocious as well. Dont get me wrong there a few solid boxers in MMA like BJ Penn, GSP, KJ Noons, Anderson Silva but for the most part the striking is just awful to watch.

I just watched Valuev vs Ruiz. A world title fight? Nuf said? The elite in either sport are a pleasure to watch but there is a very big fall off once you go a little way down the ladder. Boxing is watered down with 17 divisions and 4 MAJOR sanctioning bodies. Want to count Ring and make it 5?

Hermit

08-31-2008, 09:51 PM

Similar to boxing. Some train for the sport, some train for self defense. MMA got started to see which style of fighting was most effective in that context of fighting.

Well, if you want to train for self defense with boxing, you better pray your opponent knows the 'rules'. Of course, even boxers in the ring don't always follow them. :lol:

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 10:07 PM

Huh? I've seen this go in cycles. Bottom line, strikes are cumulative damage. A good fighter will use strikes to set up a submission.

The point is that the cage is tailored to ground fighting. In PRIDE, Strikers were much more successful in the ring. Crocop, Hunt gave Fedor 2 very tough fights. Fedor has even gone on record saying Hunt, Crocop and Noguiera were his toughest fights. Hunt, Crocop are PURE strikers with absolutely no ground game whatsoever.

All im saying is that MMA is not REAL fighting. Its a sport like boxing that has specific ways to win. Brock Lesnar, is an athletic wrestler with less than 2 years of experience in MMA and he just beat a guy whos been in the game for 10-15 years in Heath Herring. Herring is a top 10 heavyweight in the world. Brock won because he was the better wrestler. Thats it. He outwrestled him. The notion that to be good in MMA you have to be well-rounded in MMA is a myth. Sure, GSP, Penn, Fedor, Silva are well-rounded but guys like Hughes, Sylvia, Liddell, Sherk, Lesnar, Koscheck, Aoki, Shields are NOT well-rounded.

An athletic great wrestler with admirable BJJ defense can go very far in MMA with Lay and Pray tactics. This kind of fighter can win a fight without even throwing a punch on their feet. If you're athletic like GSP or Kos you dont need to setup a takedown, you just go for it, and they always get it.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 10:23 PM

I just watched Valuev vs Ruiz. A world title fight? Nuf said? The elite in either sport are a pleasure to watch but there is a very big fall off once you go a little way down the ladder. Boxing is watered down with 17 divisions and 4 MAJOR sanctioning bodies. Want to count Ring and make it 5?

I didnt even watch Valuev/Ruiz. I hate the majority of heavyweights in boxing right now. LOL. In fact, I hate the majority of heavyweight fights in all sports whether it be K-1, MMA etc. Watching Tim Sylvia fight makes my eyes hurt. :lol:

In MMA you have multiple organizations claiming to have the best fighters. Is it Dream? UFC? Affliction? EliteXC? King of the Cage? Bodog? The UFC is synomous with MMA. It is MMA. And yet 3 of the top 4 heavyweights in the world dont even fight in the UFC. Fedor, Couture, Sylvia, Arlovski, Barnett all fight in other organizations or are currently retired.

If the P4P best boxer in the world (Mayweather) fought on PPV he'd get more than 500,000 buys. If he fought another notable name it'd get close to million if not more.

And yet the best p4p fighter in MMA in Fedor fought a top 5 heavyweight in Tim Sylvia and the event only did 70-80,000 PPV buys. That is just an awful total considering the card was absolutely stacked with solid fighters. Arlovski, Belfort, Fedor, Sylvia, Lindland. Other organizations not named the UFC can barely survive. IFL went bankrupt, Affliction said they are doing 2 more shows and thats it. EliteXC is on the verge of bankruptcy.

MMA also introduced additional weight classes and now they are operating a similar type class system as boxing. MMA is becoming just as fragmented as boxing if it hasnt already.

I agree with you, the elite in both sports are enjoyable to watch. I love myself a Silva, GSP, Penn fight. As well as a Margarito, Cotto, Mayweather, Pacquaio fight as well. And obviously you will get some boring fights as well like Hopkins, Tim Sylvia, Koscheck. But thats just part of being a fan. There are good and bad football games, basketball games etc. It just goes with the territory.

I dont see how boxing is any more watered down than MMA though. MMA has alot of low-tier talent occupying lower rank organizations that are just painful to watch. And I was watching Friday Night Fights this week and I actually enjoyed every single fight on the card. I enjoyed watching Remillard whos a 22 year old prospect, I enjoyed Godfrey/Nwodo 2 tough top 20 cruiserweights. FNF has been doing a great job this year.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 10:27 PM

Well, if you want to train for self defense with boxing, you better pray your opponent knows the 'rules'. Of course, even boxers in the ring don't always follow them. :lol:

:lol: Well im just saying, hand to hand combat is extremely practical in real life situations. Being able to avoid punches while throwing some of your own is extremely useful and can get you out of alot of situations.

I can say the same thing about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I actually think striking is far more practical than any type of ground fighting in REAL life. BJJ, wrestling dont even deal with strikes.

This is something that alot of BJJ, wrestlers have to deal with when going to MMA is the addition of strikes. Alberto Crane is world class in BJJ and has won medals at the BJJ mundials and yet he couldnt beat a high school wrestler in Roger Huerta. Not only did he lose but he got beat at his own game and his face was a bloody mess.:lol:

Hermit

08-31-2008, 10:28 PM

The point is that the cage is tailored to ground fighting. In PRIDE, Strikers were much more successful in the ring. Crocop, Hunt gave Fedor 2 very tough fights. Fedor has even gone on record saying Hunt, Crocop and Noguiera were his toughest fights. Hunt, Crocop are PURE strikers with absolutely no ground game whatsoever.

All im saying is that MMA is not REAL fighting. Its a sport like boxing that has specific ways to win. Brock Lesnar, is an athletic wrestler with less than 2 years of experience in MMA and he just beat a guy whos been in the game for 10-15 years in Heath Herring. Herring is a top 10 heavyweight in the world. Brock won because he was the better wrestler. Thats it. He outwrestled him. The notion that to be good in MMA you have to be well-rounded in MMA is a myth. Sure, GSP, Penn, Fedor, Silva are well-rounded but guys like Hughes, Sylvia, Liddell, Sherk, Lesnar, Koscheck, Aoki, Shields are NOT well-rounded.

An athletic great wrestler with admirable BJJ defense can go very far in MMA with Lay and Pray tactics. This kind of fighter can win a fight without even throwing a punch on their feet. If you're athletic like GSP or Kos you dont need to setup a takedown, you just go for it, and they always get it.
Well are you trying to say UFC/cage is MMA and Pride wasn't? But let's be honest. If you talk about a 'real fight' then the only way the guys stay at range and trade blows is by agreement. Most people don't have true on punch KO power so they guy eating the most punches is bound to rush the other guy and tie him up as a defensive tactic. It happens in boxing all the time and it is 'against the rules' there. And to be really honest, we have to define 'real fight'. Are we talking vicious? Like someone willing to gouge out an eyeball? A guy I knew in high school lost an eye in a knife fight. Take the knife out of this fight. Would you rather be trained in MMA or Boxing for this fight, given an opponent that would as soon KILL you as look at you?

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 10:32 PM

MMA is the Toughman competion of the new Millenuim.

:lol: I'm hoping this is the end of the Butterbeans of the world in boxing. I actually think its good for boxing because it will become less watered down. The elites in both sports will obviously be very good but MMA will have all the crappy fighters fighting in the lower orgs of MMA.

papke26

08-31-2008, 10:49 PM

Mma rules.

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 10:49 PM

Well are you trying to say UFC/cage is MMA and Pride wasn't? But let's be honest. If you talk about a 'real fight' then the only way the guys stay at range and trade blows is by agreement. Most people don't have true on punch KO power so they guy eating the most punches is bound to rush the other guy and tie him up as a defensive tactic. It happens in boxing all the time and it is 'against the rules' there. And to be really honest, we have to define 'real fight'. Are we talking vicious? Like someone willing to gouge out an eyeball? A guy I knew in high school lost an eye in a knife fight. Take the knife out of this fight. Would you rather be trained in MMA or Boxing for this fight, given an opponent that would as soon KILL you as look at you?

Dont get me wrong, id rather have an MMA background than simply a boxing background or a kickboxing or a Muay Thai background.

The point im trying to make is that a real fight is just entirely different and sometimes being well-rounded wont win you a fight. Obviously if an MMA fighter fought average Joe he'd kill him but if the opponent happened to be a good to elite boxer it gets interesting.

Tito Ortiz lost a REAL fight outside a club in London after a UFC PPV to Lee Murray. Murray is a striker who was actually an avid boxing fan and he bobbed and weaved from Titos punches and proceeded to unload a combo on Titos fat head.:lol: This is an actual true story and Liddell, Hughes, Miletich witnessed it firsthand. Ortiz was so pissed he wanted to fight Murray in the UFC despite Murray being a weight class smaller.

With bareknuckles and the speed of a professional boxer it might not take 1 punch to do another fighter in but it wouldnt come down to that. It would come down to the flurry of punches. Think about it, a professional middleweight boxer KILLED someone due to a punch. Thats how much damage a professional boxer or great MMA striker, Muay Thai striker can do to somene. So id have to say whoever landed 1st would have a huge advantage. I'd also like to add that in a real fight you want to be standing because according to Randy Couture it leaves you with more options. When you're standing you can RUN. When you're grappling with someone you CANT.:lol:

And the point you brought up is an interesting one. Chuck Liddell fought literally a NO HOLDS BARRED fight in Brazil. Im talking eye gouging, groin strikes etc. He said that its entirely different from MMA because the skills you learn in MMA do not defend against those kinds of attacks. And because of that Chuck had a tough time putting the guy away even though he was a much inferior fighter than Chuck.

So lastly, without weapons etc its not a given that an MMA fighter can beat another fighter from another combat sport like a boxer or kickboxer. Because boxing, kickboxing are arguably the most practical forms of fighting in real life.

I'd rather have an MMA background just for insurance because of their ability to fight on the ground etc but it wouldnt make them invincible. If im an all around MMA fighter and I catch myself in a flurry from David Haye my wrestling or Jiu jitsu isnt goign to do me any good. Even if I do get a clinch on him it wont do me any good as ill be pissing blood and ill be on queer street. :D

lefthook

08-31-2008, 10:55 PM

I watched an MMA vs Boxer and the boxer never got a punch off. Got his legs kicked out from under him. Try again.

Are you talking about this?
xBG9PeImA10

cdnboxing

08-31-2008, 11:02 PM

Are you talking about this?
xBG9PeImA10

Yeah thats the example I was thinking.

But who the hell is the boxer and the guy hes fighting is one of the best kickboxers in the world in his weight class.

Secondly, there was a boxer who won K-1 Max which is a HUGE kickboxing event designed for smaller fighters. Japanese boxer Injin Chi transitioned to Kickboxing and defeated a very good kickboxer after only a few months of training. Many of the top Muay Thai practitioners are Dutch and they work their hands extensively and it poses alot of problems for the Thai fighters even though the Thai fighters are the best in the world.

Lastly, not to say it was fixed but Japan has a HUGE history of fixing fights in not only K-1 but Pride and other events. It wouldnt surprise me one bit to here that those fights were fixed.

dado

08-31-2008, 11:05 PM

an mma fighter will murder a boxer in a street fight any day...do you have any idea how hard a shin kick to the leg is...or to the head

Hermit

08-31-2008, 11:15 PM

<snip>

So you are using two MMA fighters going at it to make the point that boxing is the better technique? :patsch If I go up against a pro, I'm dead meat regardless of whether he is a boxer or MMA guy. But as a kid I was in many less fist fights than my opponents. They would swing, I would take them down, hold there nose until they opened their mouths and force fed them some grass. It ALWAYS worked for me. :deal

Borincano

09-01-2008, 12:39 AM

So you are using two MMA fighters going at it to make the point that boxing is the better technique? :patsch If I go up against a pro, I'm dead meat regardless of whether he is a boxer or MMA guy. But as a kid I was in many less fist fights than my opponents. They would swing, I would take them down, hold there nose until they opened their mouths and force fed them some grass. It ALWAYS worked for me. :deal

What were you fighting cows? This argument will go on forever. I truly believe a stand up fighter has the better advantage. I am a former streetfighter, but when I learned how to box, I was more diciplined. I fought smarter. RJJ against Gracie? A prime RJJ would catch him cold. I have much respect for MMA, but if you put a prime RJJ against a good MMA champion, I would put my money on RJJ. A boxer can learn how to pick-up some martial arts and wrestling, but a MMA figher needs much years to learn how to box. We will never know. These boxers like Mercer and Williams are no matches for these MMA fighers. They are not good examples.

cdnboxing

09-01-2008, 12:48 AM

an mma fighter will murder a boxer in a street fight any day...do you have any idea how hard a shin kick to the leg is...or to the head

Ok first of all, the likelihood of attempting a kick to the shin is slim in a street fight. It all depends on the environment. Not to mention attempting one might not be the most intelligent thing to do considering you're vulnerable for a takedown. You can get caught off balance, trip and fall down than you're screwed.

Second of all, an MMA fighter with the exception of a couple have HORRIBLE kicks. You have wrestlers, BJJ guys that brush off leg kicks as if their nothing. You think a boxer is going to collapse from a low kick from Kenny Florian. HHAHA.

There is more of a chance of standing in a street fight and in a situation like that a pure striker has much more of an advantage.

cdnboxing

09-01-2008, 12:57 AM

So you are using two MMA fighters going at it to make the point that boxing is the better technique? :patsch If I go up against a pro, I'm dead meat regardless of whether he is a boxer or MMA guy. But as a kid I was in many less fist fights than my opponents. They would swing, I would take them down, hold there nose until they opened their mouths and force fed them some grass. It ALWAYS worked for me. :deal

Lee Murray was a 185lb MMA fighter who was completely one dimensional with absolutely no ground game. He beat Tito Ortiz with PURE STRIKING. No kicks, JUST PUNCHES. Classic basic boxing techniques. He didnt clinch, didnt grapple.

You hear about Don Frye losing to a 55 year old boxing coach?

What about Krazy Horse Bennett apparently KOing Wanderlei Silva at a PRIDE event. Krazyhorse admittedly doesnt train at all. Just plays basketball but is super athletic with absolutely no boxing, kickboxing credentials and he knocked out a guy in Silva who outweighed him by 60lbs.

cdnboxing

09-01-2008, 01:02 AM

What were you fighting cows? This argument will go on forever. I truly believe a stand up fighter has the better advantage. I am a former streetfighter, but when I learned how to box, I was more diciplined. I fought smarter. RJJ against Gracie? A prime RJJ would catch him cold. I have much respect for MMA, but if you put a prime RJJ against a good MMA champion, I would put my money on RJJ. A boxer can learn how to pick-up some martial arts and wrestling, but a MMA figher needs much years to learn how to box. We will never know. These boxers like Mercer and Williams are no matches for these MMA fighers. They are not good examples.

Mercer, Williams were washed up, old and couldnt even get sanctioned to fight in boxing. Not to mention they were out for a paycheque.

What people need to understand when they say a boxer cant transition to MMA is that mediocre boxers like Marcus Davis, Chris Lytle, Jeremy Williams, Alessio Sakara have transitioned to MMA with alot less athleticism and success in boxing.

THe one thing a guy like RJJ, Haye etc would have is SUCCESS, athleticism. These guys are world class athletes that have performed on the biggest stage. If Travis Lutter, Tim Sylvia and other mediocre athletes can succeed in MMA you can bet your ass that a world class athletic boxer could as well.

cdnboxing

09-01-2008, 01:03 AM

an mma fighter will murder a boxer in a street fight any day...do you have any idea how hard a shin kick to the leg is...or to the head

HAHA, sorry I had to quote this again.

Well according to you its settled than. KICKBOXERS are the best street fighters in the world.

Not MMA, Not Boxing, Not wrestling, Not Judo but KICKBOXERS.

CONGRATULATIONS KICKBOXERS.

:patsch :good

Borincano

09-01-2008, 01:34 AM

HAHA, sorry I had to quote this again.

Well according to you its settled than. KICKBOXERS are the best street fighters in the world.

Not MMA, Not Boxing, Not wrestling, Not Judo but KICKBOXERS.

CONGRATULATIONS KICKBOXERS.

:patsch :good

Actually, the best kickboxing champs knew how to box. Dennis Alexio, James Warring, Don the Dragon Wilson, and that featherweight champ that threw over a thousand punches in one fight. I forgot his name. He is white and I believe from Texas. I used kicks to the side of the legs to get my punches off. Feinting, using a good jab, and the old one, two are a arsenal that alot of MMA fighters don't have. They throw a couple of haymakers and then try to take you down. Cintron was a wrestling champ in college I believe. I remember him saying that he would be interested in fighting in a MMA ring. I don't know about his movement. He would be taken down quick, but who knows how good his ground game would be.

eze

09-01-2008, 01:48 AM

I can see what you're saying but if you're worrying about getting taken down than MMA is not for you.

There are obviously some differences but the bottom line is the skills learned in boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing are absolutely applicable to MMA. Its no secret that a K-1 level striker in Crocop walked right into MMA and became the most dynamic striker in the sport. Its no secret that former pro boxers Marcus Davis, Chris Lytle are considered dangerous on their feet.

The fighter I sparred was an amatuer and he wasnt bad because his tools were limited. He was bad because he was just a terrible striker who had no idea what he was doing. Hands are an incredibly important tool in striking and if you cant use them effectively you're pretty much screwed.

You missed my point. Im saying that an MMA fighter is use to preparing against takedowns while striking unlike a boxer who is only worrying about punches being thrown.

While those fighters are good in MMA. You won't see Chuck Liddell transfer over to boxing and have success.

ttunnel rat

09-01-2008, 05:58 AM

Guys for say Couture-Lewis who wins scenario. This fight has to happen in order to know which is the better fighter. BUT the rules must favor "both" fighters. They both train for 3-4 months, but will not know till the last weigh in if it would be MMA, boxing, or just plain stand-up figthting. Say the draw would be MMA, Couture has to win, must win by submission or KO, if Lewis manages to survive and lose by decision, Couture loses the fight. If boxing or stand-up is drawn, then Lewis has to KO, TKO Couture to win, if Couture succeeds in standing for say 10 -12 rds, which I doubt, he wins. I believe the boxer wins in both instances, he has the better stamina. Bottomline, both has to fight the others field of expertise and at least draw/survive in unfamiliar territory and convincingly win in their respective sport. Boxers, I think can draw on stamina to pull themselves through.

Addie

09-01-2008, 06:37 AM

MMA isn't the spectacle Boxing is and never will be. The history will never compare, either.

I'm a Boxing fan, but I watch MMA too.

MancMexican

09-01-2008, 07:42 AM

Fascinating thread. Some sensible debate for once in this place.

onourway

09-01-2008, 07:47 AM

:patsch

Dude..you twisted what happened.

They were sparring, they were in close and that Williams guy did some judo throw. Lennox got up, and went straight back to sparring, got in close again, and he threw him to the ground. Lennox didn't try and fight anybody.

And that guy was Jeremy Williams, the same guy Peter knocked out cold. I can only imagine what would of happened had he fought Lewis in a professional Boxing match. :patsch

qp2vWfb7Smk

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Watch it again.

Williams suckers Lewis the first time, just throws him to the floor for no reason.

But then Lewis clearly tries to get revenge by grappling with Williams and trying to do it back to him, but Williams just trips him again with ease.

Drexl

09-01-2008, 08:08 AM

How is this thread still going? :-((

Feiti

09-01-2008, 12:33 PM

Feiti

09-01-2008, 12:36 PM

Crocop are PURE strikers with absolutely no ground game whatsoever.

Not true. They may never try for submissions and focus on striking but they are trained in takedown defense and in the ground game. If they had no training in it, they would be brutalized in mma.

Feiti

09-01-2008, 12:39 PM

The think is that pure wrestling and submission skills will take you further in MMA than pure striking skills. Usually you need both though. Even if you are not able to win a match with grappling or if your striking is not good enough to KO anyone, you at least need to be able to defend yourself from both to a degree. The difference is, you can somewhat defend yourself against strikes by grappling, but it´s hard to defend yourself agains grapples by striking (watch any John Ruiz fight to see what I mean).

Feiti

09-01-2008, 12:53 PM

The streetfight thing is a tough thing to call because of the variable and unpredictable circumstances that could hold. There can be many fighters, weapons, walls/pillars/chairs/pavement/windows/slippery ground in the way and an attack can be started without warning.

Let´s say David Haye walks up to Brock Lesnar and out of the blue sucker punches him, following up with a flurry of punches. That would probably do Lesnar in. If David Haye is on an empty street and would call Lesnar to fight him, I see Lesnar blitzing in and taking Haye down and that being the end of it.

If you´d want to be the best possible street fighter, you´d train MMA (bjj, wrestling, muay-thai, boxing) along with weapons and dirty tricks, like Krav Maga techniques. Still, in the street, it´s so unpredictable that you could never be so good that you couldn´t be maimed or killed without a chance to save yourself. Situations like multiple armed attackers, guns etc. are usually ones where you really just need luck to get away or you´re done.

The best self defence is usually to just stay out of trouble.

There is a good article on street vs sport right here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Primenal

09-01-2008, 02:01 PM

I'd say boxers vs MMA fighters in a BOXING match would win...99% of the time. Of course fighting there same weight divisions.
I'd say MMA fighters vs boxers in a MMA fight would win...70% of the time.

The reason I gave the MMA a lower percentage is because having good hands will win you a lot of fights. Most MMA fighters aren't going to have great hands, and thus they wouldn't beat many boxers in BOXING. In MMA hands are still a major weapon, and just like boxing with 8 oz gloves they are superior with MMA gloves.
Besides, it's obvious if you watch MMA that there's hardly any fighter that ever trained solely for boxing (for a while) because they couldn't be pro. If you look on the other side of the coin it's hard to tell what these boxers have done. These boxers are in excellent shape, some have came from martial arts backgrounds, etc. It's hard to tell what some of them can actually do.

As for the boxer being a weak grappler...A good boxer doesn't let a guy come in without him taking MASSIVE punishment. If couture were to step inside of somebody like Lennox Lewis and he gave him a vicious jab, uppercut, hook combo I'd bet couture would hit the mat! Of course likewise if Couture got ahold of lewis, and put him down, it's over.

BTW: I also seen a HW boxer vs a HW judo guy one time. The boxer amazingly didn't even throw a punch. The judo guy grabbed him, the boxer ducked down, and THREW him over his back!! Grappling is of course a lot of knowing what your doing, but if you got power (which a lot of boxers do have from there workout regimen) it's not going to be a walk in the park.

Feiti

09-01-2008, 05:33 PM

As for the boxer being a weak grappler...A good boxer doesn't let a guy come in without him taking MASSIVE punishment. If couture were to step inside of somebody like Lennox Lewis and he gave him a vicious jab, uppercut, hook combo I'd bet couture would hit the mat! Of course likewise if Couture got ahold of lewis, and put him down, it's over.

This has proven not to be the case over and over. It´s not difficult at all for a grappler to duck in low and trip or slam a striker with no takedown defense. There were so many double leg takedowns in the early UFCs it wasn´t even funny. Try throwing a punch at someone who comes in like that and you are just more off balance. A good MMA fighter like couture can also tie up the upper body really quickly.

Roy Jones would have minimal chances against Royce Gracie. All Royce has to do is blitz in for a double leg takedown and it´s done. RJJ has no way of defending against RG grappling. RG does at least have experience in defending against strikes and throwing some himself. Also, RG best defense against strikes it to grab. RJJ stands little chance at all.

On streetfighting, being able to grapple is often very valuable as you can sometimes disable your opponent and dominate him quickly that way. Get a dominant position if it´s agains one guy and he´s out. I´m also talking about grappling on your feet. Grappling also has legal advantages. If you can just grab somone and tie them up, you don´t have to dish out damage and perhaps face grave legal consequences. It´s true that you often want to keep streetfights standing, because you´d be able to run away or defend against multiple attackers.

Now for the quality of fighters in boxing, mma and k-1, it´s quite simple. The quality athletes tend to go where the money is. Hence, the top boxers are usually better athletes than the mma fighters and the k-1 fighters. Some mma athletes are olympians or world champions from other sports like freestyle or greco roman wrestling, bjj, judo, sambo etc. which demands proper respect. The same goes for other sports, where the top NBA players are usually better athletes than the top boxer. I´m sorry but that´s just how it is.

As for boxers having superior stamina, I ask you what kind of stamina? It´s not all the same. You general aerobic and anaerobic stamina, but there is also specialized stamina. That is your muscles and nervous system adapts to certain movements you do over and over. A boxer would hence tire much faster while wrestling than a wrestler - even if he knew what he was doing. Add the fact how you tire even faster if you don´t know what you´re doing and how to pace yourself at it.

I respect boxing, mma and other fighting sports. I don´t like ill informed people who ignorantly disrespect them when they don´t know what they´re talking about. Boxing is certainly as skill that is very useful in MMA, but if you could be a great MMA fighter purely on boxing skills, it would have been done already.

Feiti

09-01-2008, 05:42 PM

Two more comments.

1) The boxer getting his legs kicked from under him is fighting a kickboxer in K-1, not an MMA fighter. But I agree that it shows how a fighter only skilled in one area can be taken advantage of by a more complete fighter.

2) It´s probably true about the Japanese and fixing fights. The line is kinda blurry on that in Japan. Pro wrestlers learn how to shoot-wrestle and it´s common for athletes to do both mma and pro wrestling. A lot of pro-wrestling matches there also have a lot of holds an fighting techniques in them and look more like real fights than US pro wrestling. The people in Japan also don´t seem to care that much and will often have the same respect for a pro wrestler as a real fighter. Hence, it´s easy to just cross that line and fix fights. Sad really.

sambob

09-01-2008, 06:33 PM

Ive watched a lot of both, no ufc fighter could taken more than three of 4 of lewis' punches, and boxers are able to move so could avoid and take the punches are an average striker which is what the best of ufc fighters are. In order to get in a groud attack they'd have to take some leather, then its lights out.

Thats a good point. MMA fighters tend to go down after the first flush shot they take in a fight. Of course this sometimes takes a while, even if they're standing up as they don't throw accurate punches.

I read an article in a MMA magazine the other day talking about a guy training to improve his 'stand up'. His trainers were talking about how they are trying to get him to learn how to throw straight punches, because it would give him an advantage over his opponents - they get said flat out 'MMA fighters don't generally know how to throw punches properly'.

When the fighter was asked about the idea.. he said "They've showed me how to do it, but in a fight who has time to sit there and think about how to throw a punch. You just throw."

I paraphrased both quotes btw, but the next quote was the worst.

If an MMA fighter hit the scene with the ability to throw straight punches, throw hooks properly, slip punches properly, and throw GOOD combinations (not just left and right hooks back and forth), they'd have a tremendous advantage standing up over their opponents!

They don't know how to generate leverage properly either. Some have power because they throw huge haymakers, but they don't know how to use their entire body to throw a good, accurate, straight punch!

It boggles my mind too, because its NOT hard to learn how to throw a good punch. Most people who start learning boxing learn how to throw punches properly their FIRST day in the gym, and most of the time can get the hang of it on that first day too.