Is Harry Wills Overated?

[mcvey]

Looking at Wills record there is a recurring theme ,his best wins are over men with famous names but skills on the decline eg.

Sam Langford they fought 16 times,Sam won a couple of the early ones by ko when he was 32 and 34,got a dec in another at 32 and his swan song was a draw,when35 ,after this Wills won every fight,but two of those were when Langford was 35 ,and four when he was 36 ,and his eyes were bad.

Gunboat Smith 1 rd ko but Smith was finished and only took the fight for the boat ride[it was in Cuba]Smith was 34.

Denver Ed Martin,a ko win ,but Martin was 40 years old.

Jeff Clark,they fought 10 times ,the 1st was a draw,when Clark was 27 Wills won the next by dec Clark was 30.After this Wills wins each by tko,or ko but Clark is between 31 and 35 years old.

Sam Mcvey.Mcvey wins the 1st two when he is 30 and 31, loses the next still 31 then loses again by ko at the age of 34 ,there last fight is ruled a no contest and they are barred from Philadelphia,Mcvey was 36.

Joe Jeanette.3 fights the 1st is a draw Jeanette is 34,the 2nd is a win for Wills but Jeanette is all but 35,their last fight is also a win for Wills but Jeanette is 40.

Bartley Madden.Wills fights him once and wins a dec,but Tunney meets Madden a year later and kos him in 3 rds.

Kid Norfolk.1 fight a ko win for Wills ,but Norfolk is 36lbs the lighter man,and 5 inches smaller.

Bill Tate,a big man but essentially a sparring partner ,most notably for Jack Dempsey.6 fights Wills wins 4, one is a draw one a loss by dsq.But Tate has a long losing record.

Luis Firpo .One fight a nws dec win ,but Dempsey had kod Firpo in 2 a year earlier..

To me Wills best wins are over famous names past their best ,or wins over men by dec that were kod by his contempories such as Tunney and Dempsey. I think Wills gets a bit of a sympathy vote because he never got the chance to meet Dempsey,and his record is a little inflated by victories over faded veterans .

[janitor]

No.

Wills resume is huge in terms of volume of wins over curent world class fighters.

In this respect he is up there with Louis and Ali.

He is enjoying a bit of a renaisance on this site but outside of this ring he is cronicaly and criminaly underrated.

[mcvey]

No.

Wills resume is huge in terms of volume of wins over curent world class fighters.

In this respect he is up there with Louis and Ali.

He is enjoying a bit of a renaisance on this site but outside of this ring he is cronicaly and criminaly underrated.
So you don't agree his best wins are over men past their prime?

[My2Sense]

I've always thought basically the same thing. I think Wills gets a bit overhyped. His reputation was built largely from the notion that Dempsey was avoiding him (which very well may have been true). As you said, he made his name by beating Sam Langford multiple times, but Langford was a shopworn old vertern by that time, and Langford still knocked him out in a couple of their early fights before he simply got too old. IMO, Sharkey exposed him when he nearly chased him out of the ring. I suppose by that time Wills may have been past his own prime, but he was still considered Dempsey's feared top contender and there really wasn't anyone dismissing him as "old" or "washed up" going in.

[Maxmomer]

Overrated by some, underrated by others.

[Mendoza]

Looking at Wills record there is a recurring theme ,his best wins are over men with famous names but skills on the decline eg.

Sam Langford they fought 16 times,Sam won a couple of the early ones by ko when he was 32 and 34,got a dec in another at 32 and his swan song was a draw,when35 ,after this Wills won every fight,but two of those were when Langford was 35 ,and four when he was 36 ,and his eyes were bad.

Gunboat Smith 1 rd ko but Smith was finished and only took the fight for the boat ride[it was in Cuba]Smith was 34.

Denver Ed Martin,a ko win ,but Martin was 40 years old.

Jeff Clark,they fought 10 times ,the 1st was a draw,when Clark was 27 Wills won the next by dec Clark was 30.After this Wills wins each by tko,or ko but Clark is between 31 and 35 years old.

Sam Mcvey.Mcvey wins the 1st two when he is 30 and 31, loses the next still 31 then loses again by ko at the age of 34 ,there last fight is ruled a no contest and they are barred from Philadelphia,Mcvey was 36.

Joe Jeanette.3 fights the 1st is a draw Jeanette is 34,the 2nd is a win for Wills but Jeanette is all but 35,their last fight is also a win for Wills but Jeanette is 40.

Bartley Madden.Wills fights him once and wins a dec,but Tunney meets Madden a year later and kos him in 3 rds.

Kid Norfolk.1 fight a ko win for Wills ,but Norfolk is 36lbs the lighter man,and 5 inches smaller.

Bill Tate,a big man but essentially a sparring partner ,most notably for Jack Dempsey.6 fights Wills wins 4, one is a draw one a loss by dsq.But Tate has a long losing record.

Luis Firpo .One fight a nws dec win ,but Dempsey had kod Firpo in 2 a year earlier..

To me Wills best wins are over famous names past their best ,or wins over men by dec that were kod by his contempories such as Tunney and Dempsey. I think Wills gets a bit of a sympathy vote because he never got the chance to meet Dempsey,and his record is a little inflated by victories over faded veterans .

Agreed. Wills was top guy, but like you said, slightly past their prime verisons of McVey and Langford got the better of Wills. I still think Wills was a top 40 ATG. He was a big man with a good punch.

[mcvey]

Agreed. Wills was top guy, but like you said, slightly past their prime verisons of McVey and Langford got the better of Wills. I still think Wills was a top 40 ATG. He was a big man with a good punch.
Thanks M ,I didn't mean to suggest Wills wasn't a world class fighter ,for some considerable years,but I feel a case can be made for ranking him lower than Jeanette and Langford and possibly Mcvey.

[Mendoza]

Thanks M ,I didn't mean to suggest Wills wasn't a world class fighter ,for some considerable years,but I feel a case can be made for ranking him lower than Jeanette and Langford and possibly Mcvey.

Wills lower than Langford? Sure. Lower than McVey? Likely. I have read a bit on Jeanette, and his long suits were toughness, stamina, durability, and countering. Jeanette did not have big power or top draw skills. He won the hard way. I tend to think Wills at his best was better than Jeanette at his.

[mcvey]

Wills lower than Langford? Sure. Lower than McVey? Likely. I have read a bit on Jeanette, and his long suits were toughness, stamina, durability, and countering. Jeanette did not have big power or top draw skills. He won the hard way. I tend to think Wills at his best was better than Jeanette at his.
Well Jeanett drew with Wills when he was 34 and lost 2 nws dedc to him when he was nearly 35 and at the age of 40.I agree Jeanette lacked great power,judging by his record but he had some knockdown drag out battles ,had great stamina and grit .Ive often wonderd if Wills had that same "stickability ", he fouled out to Sharkey to save a beating and caved in to Uzcudun ,admittedly when past his best,still you feel any of the other great Black trio would have taken their lumps.Could Wills come back in fights like Mcvey and Jeanette ? Maybe ,but we don't know.

[Ted Spoon]

His worth as a fighter is the loose point; some have said big and slow, while others have stated that he was as fast as a cat.

The direction of the thread is quite accurate, but Wills was a fantastic who remains historically ailed from a lack of footage of him at his best.

[Rock0052]

His worth as a fighter is the loose point; some have said big and slow, while others have stated that he was as fast as a cat.

The direction of the thread is quite accurate, but Wills was a fantastic who remains historically ailed from a lack of footage of him at his best.

Well stated. :good

[ChrisPontius]

I should be noted that for some of those losses when Langford etc were younger, he had little experience himself. It goes both ways. I certainly think his record is as good as Dempsey's if not better; the biggest difference is that he doesn't have a spectacular performance like KO'ing a 37 year old, horribly skilled, strong farmer boy on film.... plus his fights didn't say "world heavyweight championship" because he was ducked for a record holding amount of years.

[Muchmoore]

I should be noted that for some of those losses when Langford etc were younger, he had little experience himself

:good

Dempsey had losses early in his career to worse fighters than Langford, and Mcvey as well.

[janitor]

So you don't agree his best wins are over men past their prime?

Errrmmmmmmm

Yes but as others have said he also had to fight some of his best oponents before he himself had peaked.

And of course the same criticism could be made of some other great fighters.

[ChrisPontius]

:good

Dempsey had losses early in his career to worse fighters than Langford, and Mcvey as well.

Exactly. Wills rarely pops up in your average top15 list, but given his resume i think he's a lock for that. A guy like Patterson, as likeable as he is, does not even compare in my opinion, yet he's almost always in the top15. Having fight film, losing to Ali and not having been scuffed under the rug to cover up a national hero's shame can do a lot for one's legacy, that's for sure.

[PowerPuncher]

I should be noted that for some of those losses when Langford etc were younger, he had little experience himself. It goes both ways. I certainly think his record is as good as Dempsey's if not better; the biggest difference is that he doesn't have a spectacular performance like KO'ing a 37 year old, horribly skilled, strong farmer boy on film.... plus his fights didn't say "world heavyweight championship" because he was ducked for a record holding amount of years.

:lol: AGREED, for the first time this week I believe

You can make a case Wills was no1 HEavyweight on the planet from 1914-1926. He cleared out the blk fighters from his era and beat the white 1s. Sure some would be past prime, but thats the same of any era of fighters. He also beat the young up and comers like Firpo, Fred Fulton, Kid Norfolk, Meehan

[heehoo]

Overrated? Hell no, not even close.

I read somewhere that he ws the best heavyweight of his day, and that Dempsey's management did everything it could to duck him.

[ChrisPontius]

:lol: AGREED, for the first time this week I believe


Everyone makes mistakes. ;)

[mcvey]

I should be noted that for some of those losses when Langford etc were younger, he had little experience himself. It goes both ways. I certainly think his record is as good as Dempsey's if not better; the biggest difference is that he doesn't have a spectacular performance like KO'ing a 37 year old, horribly skilled, strong farmer boy on film.... plus his fights didn't say "world heavyweight championship" because he was ducked for a record holding amount of years.
This would be the case when Wills was kod by KId Cottn in 2 rds in 1912 but Wills was 23 and Cotton had a record of 2-5-0.Wills was 5-0-0 . Wills was 24 when he met Joe Jeanette and had 11 fights ,so yes he could be green they fought a draw,he was green and Jeanette was 34.Now to the Langford defeats Sam kod Wills twice,and this is where your argument falls down ,imo,in 1914 Wills was kod by Sam in 14rds,Wills was 25 with 25 fights under his belt ,no longer green ,or young,.In 1916 Wills is again kod by Sam he is now26 going on 27 he is kod in 19 rds,he has had 33 fights.,in 1917 they fight to a draw Sam is 34 ,Wills 28 with 46 fights on his record.
When Wills lost to Mcvey he was 25 no longer a novice in skills or age.And when Jeff Clark beat Wills Harry was25 with 22 fights on his resume.So Apart from the Cotton ko ,when Wills had only 5 fights unbeaten ,against a man with 2 wins out of 7 fights he was really prime for his losses.I therefore place him below the Black trio of Jeanette ,Mcvey and Langford.

[Boilermaker]

Agreed. Wills was top guy, but like you said, slightly past their prime verisons of McVey and Langford got the better of Wills. I still think Wills was a top 40 ATG. He was a big man with a good punch.

I think i would agree with this rating. He is possibly a top 3 fighter of his decade which roughly equates to a top 40 or so fighter. I would rate him below Langford, in particularly and probably McVey and Jeanette also, based on the matches that were closest to their primes. I also would favour Tunney and Dempsey quite strongly against him.

Quite interestingly, i think that freezing him out of the title picture actually has done quite a lot for his legacy. I think that both Dempsey and Tunney would have beaten him convincingly which would have harmed his legacy, but as it is now, it is a big unknown and many people use the ducking as a reason to put up towards the top 10, with the obvious theory being that he could have beaten both.

[robert ungurean]

I dont know alot about him.
I do rememder Ray Arcel saying in a book that Dempsey would have taken him no prob.

[Seamus]

Looking at Wills record there is a recurring theme ,his best wins are over men with famous names but skills on the decline eg.

Sam Langford they fought 16 times,Sam won a couple of the early ones by ko when he was 32 and 34,got a dec in another at 32 and his swan song was a draw,when35 ,after this Wills won every fight,but two of those were when Langford was 35 ,and four when he was 36 ,and his eyes were bad.

Gunboat Smith 1 rd ko but Smith was finished and only took the fight for the boat ride[it was in Cuba]Smith was 34.

Denver Ed Martin,a ko win ,but Martin was 40 years old.

Jeff Clark,they fought 10 times ,the 1st was a draw,when Clark was 27 Wills won the next by dec Clark was 30.After this Wills wins each by tko,or ko but Clark is between 31 and 35 years old.

Sam Mcvey.Mcvey wins the 1st two when he is 30 and 31, loses the next still 31 then loses again by ko at the age of 34 ,there last fight is ruled a no contest and they are barred from Philadelphia,Mcvey was 36.

Joe Jeanette.3 fights the 1st is a draw Jeanette is 34,the 2nd is a win for Wills but Jeanette is all but 35,their last fight is also a win for Wills but Jeanette is 40.

Bartley Madden.Wills fights him once and wins a dec,but Tunney meets Madden a year later and kos him in 3 rds.

Kid Norfolk.1 fight a ko win for Wills ,but Norfolk is 36lbs the lighter man,and 5 inches smaller.

Bill Tate,a big man but essentially a sparring partner ,most notably for Jack Dempsey.6 fights Wills wins 4, one is a draw one a loss by dsq.But Tate has a long losing record.

Luis Firpo .One fight a nws dec win ,but Dempsey had kod Firpo in 2 a year earlier..

To me Wills best wins are over famous names past their best ,or wins over men by dec that were kod by his contempories such as Tunney and Dempsey. I think Wills gets a bit of a sympathy vote because he never got the chance to meet Dempsey,and his record is a little inflated by victories over faded veterans .

Not to mention many of these fighters weren't that great to begin with, i.e. Jeanette, Firpo, Tate, Martin. A middlin' bunch if there ever were one.

[SuzieQ49]

To me Wills best wins are over famous names past their best ,or wins over men by dec that were kod by his contempories such as Tunney and Dempsey

Wills actually beat the best black and white heavyweights of the era, dempsey wouldnt fight black guys, he struggled against the white guys more than wills did, and tunney never fought a world class heavyweight besides old rusted dempsey.

[Cojimar 1945]

Wills legacy would be better if he had beaten Billy Miske, Tommy Gibbons and Harry Greb. Even if he could not get a fight with Dempsey, fights with these three could have greatly helped to establish that he was the best heavyweight of his era.

[Cojimar 1945]

Tunney did not fight for the title until Wills was well past his glory days so I don't think Tunney would effect Wills legacy much unless they fought long before Tunney faced Dempsey.

[GazOC]

Overrated? Hell no, not even close.

I read somewhere that he ws the best heavyweight of his day, and that Dempsey's management did everything it could to duck him.

I think the fight was very near to getting signed. There was just no stomach for a taking a chance on there being a black heavyweight champion so soon after Johnson.