Harry Wills resume UNDERATED....

[SuzieQ49]

After reviewing Mcvey's "wills overated" thread and seeing countless posts "wills beat past ther prime versions of mvey langford..." I couldnt disagree more and wanted to set the record straight.


Harry Wills in his 15th and 17th pro fights Beat Joe Jenette and Sam Langford. Langford and Jenette had 30 + years of experience compared to Wills 2!! Langford was only 31 years old in 1914, coming off some of his career best wins and was the divisions # 1 heavyweight contender. Jenette was a top heavyweight contender coming off a 21-2 run. Sam Mcvea was just 31 years old and a top HW contender when wills beat him in 1915, now sam got the better of wills early on....but wills was still green. once wills hit his peak by 1917, mcvea couldnt touch him(of course partially due to mcvea aging, but nonetheless)....


now please answer me this one folks......what heavyweight in history has beaten quality opposition such as jenette and langford with only 15 mere fights under there belt? in fact, what heavyweight in history even FOUGHT such great caliber opposition before 20 bouts?

the very fact that a wicked green was going dead even/or beating these guys in his 2nd full year as a pro shows you just how great harry wills was. By 1917 once harry willls started to enter his prime, these guys couldnt touch him. Sam Langford was beaten by harry wills at least 10 times, mcvea was knocked out every time. I think its clear a fully matured prime harry wills was better than these guys(or at least better than mcvea and jenette).


now some make a big deal of an "Aging" sam knocking out wills in 1914 and 1916(in fights wills was dominating btw).........but people forget wills fought sam at least 15 times. Sam was very dangerous still in 1914 and 1916 and wills was still maturing.....if you give a dangerous puncher like langford 15 chances.....he is sure bound to kayo you at least 1 or 2 times in 15 tries. but fact remains wills still beat langford at least 10-12 times, and langfords percentage against wills 2 out 15 is VERY VERY LOW, and its quite clear wills dominated him.... you give langford 15 chances vs louis and ali and he will come out with 2 out of 15.


Now Take note.......

In Jack Dempsey first 15 fights, he fought none good journeyman even, and suffered loss to 9-6 jack downey, and was FLOORED 9 TIMES by clubfighter johnny suddenberg! wills at this stage was fighting world class contenders and beating them, while dempsey was getting tossed around and manhandled by tomato cans. I dont think I can empasize this point enough.


Wills by the end of 1914 had already established himself as the # 1 heavyweight contender to JACK JOHNSONS crown, you could make a case that jack johnson, willard, and dempsey all ducked wills. In fact Wills from 1914-1926 was a top contender deserving of a title shot, thats 13 years of ducking!

Wills unlike dempsey, beat top contenders in two different eras and he beat both the top BLACK AND WHITE heavyweight contenders(dempsey only beat the white dudes). Sam Mcvea, Sam Langford, Joe Jenette, were the best contenders of the mid teens.....wills beat all of them. dempsey fought none of these guys. all 3 are better than anyone jack dempsey fought during his teen years or title reign. Then even during the late teens/early 20s wills established just how dominating he was by dominating the two best white contenders of the era firpo and Fulton. Wills knocked firpo down twice and won every round( he never got floored 3 times and flattened out of the ring the way dempsey did) and wills broke 3 of fultons ribs on his way to a damaging 3 rounds knockout defeat. wills capped it off with a easy destructive knockout 2 round win over kid norfolk, a very talented fighter who was better than nearly all of dempseys victims. in fact dempseys management refused to fight kid.





I think Harry wills is undisputedly a top 15 heavyweight of all time. if u rate dempsey high, u have to rank wills high. after all, wills accomplished far more during the era than dempsey.

[pugilist_boyd]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

does no one on here read about all the corruption about color lines back then as ive said over and over and over dempsey tried to fight wills his first upfront payment on the fight bounced.so he went to the only promoter he trusted rickard and begged him to stage the fight ,rickard in the past had vowed to never stage another white _black championship match after jeffries-johnson.but with dempsey being so persistent rickard(problobly lying said the big whigs of new york ordered him not to )this is were rickard had promoting rights so jack took next offerd opp. tunney.therefore wills who about every boxer and analizer said would get beat inside of 5-6 never got his shot and dempsey gets ridiculed from every boxing fan who only reads the bold print and does not truly study.kearns if not fired said he planned a couple of warmup fights then was going to match dempsey against wills who he stated dempsey would have beaten because wills was more of a wresteler at times who liked to be close,and kearns stated nobody stayed close to dempsey and stayed standing,but the match would have to be held away from the controlled new york.also the dempseys loses were often because he fought 4 rounders with the own towns referee deciding who won in 1 case it was his opp. dad so tell me that was fair now,if u like

[mcvey]

After reviewing Mcvey's "wills overated" thread and seeing countless posts "wills beat past ther prime versions of mvey langford..." I couldnt disagree more and wanted to set the record straight.


Harry Wills in his 15th and 17th pro fights Beat Joe Jenette and Sam Langford. Langford and Jenette had 30 + years of experience compared to Wills 2!! Langford was only 31 years old in 1914, coming off some of his career best wins and was the divisions # 1 heavyweight contender. Jenette was a top heavyweight contender coming off a 21-2 run. Sam Mcvea was just 31 years old and a top HW contender when wills beat him in 1915, now sam got the better of wills early on....but wills was still green. once wills hit his peak by 1917, mcvea couldnt touch him(of course partially due to mcvea aging, but nonetheless)....


now please answer me this one folks......what heavyweight in history has beaten quality opposition such as jenette and langford with only 15 mere fights under there belt? in fact, what heavyweight in history even FOUGHT such great caliber opposition before 20 bouts?

the very fact that a wicked green was going dead even/or beating these guys in his 2nd full year as a pro shows you just how great harry wills was. By 1917 once harry willls started to enter his prime, these guys couldnt touch him. Sam Langford was beaten by harry wills at least 10 times, mcvea was knocked out every time. I think its clear a fully matured prime harry wills was better than these guys(or at least better than mcvea and jenette).


now some make a big deal of an "Aging" sam knocking out wills in 1914 and 1916(in fights wills was dominating btw).........but people forget wills fought sam at least 15 times. Sam was very dangerous still in 1914 and 1916 and wills was still maturing.....if you give a dangerous puncher like langford 15 chances.....he is sure bound to kayo you at least 1 or 2 times in 15 tries. but fact remains wills still beat langford at least 10-12 times, and langfords percentage against wills 2 out 15 is VERY VERY LOW, and its quite clear wills dominated him.... you give langford 15 chances vs louis and ali and he will come out with 2 out of 15.


Now Take note.......

In Jack Dempsey first 15 fights, he fought none good journeyman even, and suffered loss to 9-6 jack downey, and was FLOORED 9 TIMES by clubfighter johnny suddenberg! wills at this stage was fighting world class contenders and beating them, while dempsey was getting tossed around and manhandled by tomato cans. I dont think I can empasize this point enough.


Wills by the end of 1914 had already established himself as the # 1 heavyweight contender to JACK JOHNSONS crown, you could make a case that jack johnson, willard, and dempsey all ducked wills. In fact Wills from 1914-1926 was a top contender deserving of a title shot, thats 13 years of ducking!

Wills unlike dempsey, beat top contenders in two different eras and he beat both the top BLACK AND WHITE heavyweight contenders(dempsey only beat the white dudes). Sam Mcvea, Sam Langford, Joe Jenette, were the best contenders of the mid teens.....wills beat all of them. dempsey fought none of these guys. all 3 are better than anyone jack dempsey fought during his teen years or title reign. Then even during the late teens/early 20s wills established just how dominating he was by dominating the two best white contenders of the era firpo and Fulton. Wills knocked firpo down twice and won every round( he never got floored 3 times and flattened out of the ring the way dempsey did) and wills broke 3 of fultons ribs on his way to a damaging 3 rounds knockout defeat. wills capped it off with a easy destructive knockout 2 round win over kid norfolk, a very talented fighter who was better than nearly all of dempseys victims. in fact dempseys management refused to fight kid.





I think Harry wills is undisputedly a top 15 heavyweight of all time. if u rate dempsey high, u have to rank wills high. after all, wills accomplished far more during the era than dempsey.
Wills was beaten by Langford ,a ko in 14 rds Wills was not green he was 25 years old had had 26 fights and was in fact the" Coloured Champion of the World".Langford was 31.Wills was beaten by Langford, a ko in 19 rds,he was27 years old and had had 33 fights.Langford was 33 . Both these fights were for the" Coloured Championship" held by Wills.Wills was not green and certainly not a novice at this stage.
Wills had 5 fights with Mcvey.The 1st fight Wills had had 27 fights and was 25 years old GREEN? I dont think so.Mcvey wins a dec ,Mcvey is 30.
2nd fight Wills had had 29 fightsand is 26.Mcvey is 31.
3rd FightWills wins a dec he has 30 fights under his belt and is26,Mcvey is 31.
4th fightWills wins byko 5 rdsWills has had 48 fights and is29 ,Mcvey is 34
5 th fight is a no contest both thrown out for stalling Mcvey is 36.Wills the Coloured Champ.
So Against Mcvey ,Wills is in his prime ,and in the 2 defeats to Langford Wills is 25 and 27years old AND THE COLOURED CHAMP,NOT A NOVICE OR GREEN.

The Jeanette fights.
The 1st is a draw,Wills is green here with 11 fights but he is 24 years old so physically mature,at 34 Jeanette is on the downside of his career.But some credit to Wills for this victory.
2nd fight Wills wins a dec he has had 19fights and is 26 Jeanette is all but 35.
3rd fight Wills wins a dec he's had 55 fights and is30 .Jeanette is 40 years old.

I think this proves the majority of Wills big wins were over fading veterans.Suzie points out that Wills dominated Firpo ,why didn the flatten his as Dempsey did? Wills outboxed Bartley Madden ,but Tunney stretched him.
In the 1919 fight with Mcvey Wills won 1 rd and was floored for 9.in one of the ko losses to Langford Sam was fightitng with a sprained ankle giving away 22 lbs yet he kod Wills.I stand on my statement Wills career wins over the Black Triumvirate were for the most part scored over men appproaching the twilight years of their career.I concur with Ray Arcel ,Dempsey would have kod Harry Wills.

[PowerPuncher]

Wills dominated Firpo ,why didn the flatten his as Dempsey did? .

Why didnt get get smashed out the ring like Dempsey did too :lol:

[mcvey]

Why didnt get get smashed out the ring like Dempsey did too :lol:
Dempsey got back in ,floored, Firpo 7 times in 2 rds.Is that a bad performance do you think? Louis was knocked out of the ring by Buddy Baer,do you castigate him for that? Wills boxed safety first to outpoint Bartley Madden , Tunney an average heavyweight puncher stopped Madden.Do you see any inaccuracies in my facts? If so please state them.

[PowerPuncher]

Dempsey got back in ,floored, Firpo 7 times in 2 rds.Is that a bad performance do you think? Louis was knocked out of the ring by Buddy Baer,do you castigate him for that? Wills boxed safety first to outpoint Bartley Madden , Tunney an average heavyweight puncher stopped Madden.Do you see any inaccuracies in my facts? If so please state them.

Demsey nearly got knocked out by a limited slugger yet you critisize Wills for winning every miniute of every round and winning comfortably. Not to mention Wills was past prime at this stage anyway. Plenty of fighters stopped Mayweather opponents faster than him, it doesn't make them better.

Complete bias

[mcvey]

I don't critisize Wills I 'm trying to put him in perspective,he wasn't some Black avenger waiting in the wings.I said his best wins for the most part were over older men a bit past it ,anything incorrect there?I was replying to the poster who slated Dempsey for being knocked out of the ring and pointing out he got back in.I think Wills is a bit overated ,that's my position ,your's is the opposite fine.

[Luigi1985]

Wills is very underrated and almost unknown, he beat great fighters like Jeanette, Langford, McVea, solid fighters like Clark, Fulton, Denver Ed Martin, etc., I mean it´s not fair to say he was Ko´d against Langford 2times, one of the hardest punchers p4p ever, he fought him something like 20 times, it would be the same if Wladimir Klitschko would face a dangerous puncher like Briggs( I know that he´s completely shot, but he has still great one-punch-power and good handspeed, dangerous combination) or Peter 20 times, he would also lose some fights viá KO, it´s just normal.

[SuzieQ49]

his best wins for the most part were over older men a bit past it

langford and mcvea were both 31 when wills first beat them, you consider that old?

[SuzieQ49]

I concur with Ray Arcel ,Dempsey would have kod Harry Wills.


based on what? wills far and away proved himself more during that era and beat better competition than dempsey. Wills was a fast talented powerful big man, not a slow untalented soft robotic big man like dempsey was used too.

[ChrisPontius]

Dempsey got back in ,floored, Firpo 7 times in 2 rds.Is that a bad performance do you think? Louis was knocked out of the ring by Buddy Baer,do you castigate him for that? Wills boxed safety first to outpoint Bartley Madden , Tunney an average heavyweight puncher stopped Madden.Do you see any inaccuracies in my facts? If so please state them.

Dempsey was genuinely hurt and in danger of losing the fight. Louis was briefly knocked down and went on to dominate. Dempsey was down twice or three times, depending on your definition. Wills won a clear decision without getting knocked down two or thee times; i know which one i'd prefer.

As for him not stopping an opponent, so what? Ali and Holmes went the distance with tons of terrible fighters, doesn't take anything away from them now does it?

[mcvey]

Dempsey was genuinely hurt and in danger of losing the fight. Louis was briefly knocked down and went on to dominate. Dempsey was down twice or three times, depending on your definition. Wills won a clear decision without getting knocked down two or thee times; i know which one i'd prefer.

As for him not stopping an opponent, so what? Ali and Holmes went the distance with tons of terrible fighters, doesn't take anything away from them now does it?
I think knocking a man down 7 times in 2 rds counts as pretty dominating ,myself.

[mcvey]

langford and mcvea were both 31 when wills first beat them, you consider that old?
Wills was 25 and 27 when he fought Langford,with 26 and 33 fights under his belt ,do you consider that green ?

[mcvey]

Wills is very underrated and almost unknown, he beat great fighters like Jeanette, Langford, McVea, solid fighters like Clark, Fulton, Denver Ed Martin, etc., I mean it´s not fair to say he was Ko´d against Langford 2times, one of the hardest punchers p4p ever, he fought him something like 20 times, it would be the same if Wladimir Klitschko would face a dangerous puncher like Briggs( I know that he´s completely shot, but he has still great one-punch-power and good handspeed, dangerous combination) or Peter 20 times, he would also lose some fights viá KO, it´s just normal.
Wills did beat great fighters ,that's not in dispute ,whether he beat them when they were in there prime is the issue.PS Denver Ed Martin was 40 years old. Nice to see you back Luigi!

[klompton]

The proof is in the pudding. If Dempsey, or his handlers, felt he could beat Wills they would have made the match immediately, kicked Wills' ass in front of god and everybody, and it would have been a sensation. They knew Wills would be hell for Dempsey. Are you kidding me? A tall rangy boxer puncher with Wills experience? Thats a nightmare matchup for an aggressive lefthooker like Dempsey who fought out of a crouch. Tunney, who was smaller and couldnt hit as hard as Wills, proved that, as did Bill Brennan who fought along the same lines as Wills but less effectively. No, Rickard and Kearns wanted to make sure they matched Dempsey with guys who they had no doubt he would beat: Miske (who Dempsey readily admitted he knew was sick), Brennan who Dempsey had already KOd and who most didnt expect to go two rounds with, Carpentier, promoted to the title based on style over substance, Gibbons who had actually LOST HIS ELIMINATION BOUT to face Dempsey against Greb, Firpo who was a total fabrication of a contender created entirely by Rickard for the sole purpose of having another million dollar gate by matching Dempsey against an exotic opponent (he tried the same thing later with Chilean Quintin Romero Rojas but Rojas couldnt even get past the guys Rickard was trying to set him up with, and Tunney who they picked because he had been carefully matched and largely unproven, they figured he would not be competetive with Dempsey. Remember, theres a reason that fight was in Philly. It was because Dempsey had been banned from fighting in New York for ducking his #1 contender for SEVEN years.

[mcvey]

based on what? wills far and away proved himself more during that era and beat better competition than dempsey. Wills was a fast talented powerful big man, not a slow untalented soft robotic big man like dempsey was used too.
Like Fred Fulton whom Dempsey iced in 1 round?

[mcvey]

Does Fred Fulton at 6 4 1/2 ,225 lbs count as tall and rangy? Dempsey hadn t fought for three years when Tunney beat him ,he was no longer the Mauler.

[klompton]

Fulton was not a boxer puncher. He was a china chinned slugger made to order for Dempsey. Wills iced him in two, or have you forgotten that? Dempsey was still in his physical prime when he lost to Tunney and fought in the same manner he always did in the fight in 1927 and still lost. The bottom line is that Dempsey was never as invincible as his fanboys argue he was. Carpentier hurt him badly in the second round of their fight, Brennan outboxed and outpunched him for eleven rounds, Firpo dropped and hurt him, etc etc. All fighters far below Will's skill level. Even Gibbons made Dempsey look bad, Sharkey easily outboxed him until getting fouled (he admittedly quit but...) and Tunney had no trouble at all outside of a few seconds in second fight. The fact is that Dempsey or his management avoided the guys who deserved to face Dempsey and would have given him the most problems. It just so happens that Wills was chief among those he avoided.

[janitor]

Much as I respect your writings I have to take you up on a few points.

[quote=klompton]Fulton was not a boxer puncher. He was a china chinned slugger made to order for Dempsey.

Everything I have read about Fulton suggests that he was a classic boxer who utilised his jab to fight at long range.

Dempsey was still in his physical prime when he lost to Tunney

I cant acept that. Dempsey was coming off a long period of inactivity and the first things to leave a fighter are his footwork and reflexes.

Both of these would have been critical to winning this fight.

[mcvey]

Actually Wills stopped Fulton in 3 rds ,no I hadn't forgotten ,and I think you will find it was body punches that stopped Fulton when Wills beat him , not punches to the chin,Dempsey 2 years earlier kod Fulton in 23 seconds ,giving him 20lbs in weight.I never said what style Fulton fought ,but listed at 6 6 and with a n 84in reach I think he qualifies as tall and rangy ,don't you? SDempsey was not in his physical prime when he lost to Tunneu ,how could he be ? He had been inactive for 3 years ,living the Broadway life.I see no evidence that Carpentier did anything but temporarily inconvenience Dempsey George's hand was damaged far more than Jack's chin
Dempsey hit Brennan so hard Brennan broke his ankle spinning down from the ko punch,Brennan nearly tore Dempsey's ear off ,but he did not outslug him ,no one ever did when he was in his prime.Sharkey did outbos Dempsey ,imo,but took his eye off the ball and more importantly Dempsey,Sharkey was kod from a lefdt hook to the chin not the low blow.who are these other "guys" you think Dempsey avoided ?Young lh Jack Dillon ?or one eyed M Hary Greb? Ive never suggested Wills was not a world class fighter or that he would be an easy fight for Jack ,but I think Dempsey takes him ok?

[Luigi1985]

Wills did beat great fighters ,that's not in dispute ,whether he beat them when they were in there prime is the issue.PS Denver Ed Martin was 40 years old. Nice to see you back Luigi!



You have solid points, but IMO it´s not only with Wills so, it´s with almost every fighter the same, which fighter can say about him he beat many elite fighters in their prime and at their absolute best? IMO Wills was pretty consistent, he had only very few L´s in his prime, IMO it´s better to beat an older great fighter like Langford for example so often and clear like Wills did, than a young, unbeaten mediocre fighter with a padded record...

[Luigi1985]

Wills did beat great fighters ,that's not in dispute ,whether he beat them when they were in there prime is the issue.PS Denver Ed Martin was 40 years old. Nice to see you back Luigi!


Thank you very much for the nice "welcome"! :hi:

[mcvey]

You have solid points, but IMO it´s not only with Wills so, it´s with almost every fighter the same, which fighter can say about him he beat many elite fighters in their prime and at their absolute best? IMO Wills was pretty consistent, he had only very few L´s in his prime, IMO it´s better to beat an older great fighter like Langford for example so often and clear like Wills did, than a young, unbeaten mediocre fighter with a padded record...
Fair counter punching L?

[Mendoza]

Wills was beaten by Langford ,a ko in 14 rds Wills was not green he was 25 years old had had 26 fights and was in fact the" Coloured Champion of the World".Langford was 31.Wills was beaten by Langford, a ko in 19 rds,he was27 years old and had had 33 fights.Langford was 33 . Both these fights were for the" Coloured Championship" held by Wills.Wills was not green and certainly not a novice at this stage.
Wills had 5 fights with Mcvey.The 1st fight Wills had had 27 fights and was 25 years old GREEN? I dont think so.Mcvey wins a dec ,Mcvey is 30.
2nd fight Wills had had 29 fightsand is 26.Mcvey is 31.
3rd FightWills wins a dec he has 30 fights under his belt and is26,Mcvey is 31.
4th fightWills wins byko 5 rdsWills has had 48 fights and is29 ,Mcvey is 34
5 th fight is a no contest both thrown out for stalling Mcvey is 36.Wills the Coloured Champ.
So Against Mcvey ,Wills is in his prime ,and in the 2 defeats to Langford Wills is 25 and 27years old AND THE COLOURED CHAMP,NOT A NOVICE OR GREEN.

The Jeanette fights.
The 1st is a draw,Wills is green here with 11 fights but he is 24 years old so physically mature,at 34 Jeanette is on the downside of his career.But some credit to Wills for this victory.
2nd fight Wills wins a dec he has had 19fights and is 26 Jeanette is all but 35.
3rd fight Wills wins a dec he's had 55 fights and is30 .Jeanette is 40 years old.

I think this proves the majority of Wills big wins were over fading veterans.Suzie points out that Wills dominated Firpo ,why didn the flatten his as Dempsey did? Wills outboxed Bartley Madden ,but Tunney stretched him.
In the 1919 fight with Mcvey Wills won 1 rd and was floored for 9.in one of the ko losses to Langford Sam was fightitng with a sprained ankle giving away 22 lbs yet he kod Wills.I stand on my statement Wills career wins over the Black Triumvirate were for the most part scored over men appproaching the twilight years of their career.I concur with Ray Arcel ,Dempsey would have kod Harry Wills.

Ditto.

[SuzieQ49]

Ditto.



so you believe dempsey accomplished more in the era than harry wills did? I would LOVE to hear how.

[ChrisPontius]

The proof is in the pudding. If Dempsey, or his handlers, felt he could beat Wills they would have made the match immediately, kicked Wills' ass in front of god and everybody, and it would have been a sensation. They knew Wills would be hell for Dempsey. Are you kidding me? A tall rangy boxer puncher with Wills experience? Thats a nightmare matchup for an aggressive lefthooker like Dempsey who fought out of a crouch. Tunney, who was smaller and couldnt hit as hard as Wills, proved that, as did Bill Brennan who fought along the same lines as Wills but less effectively. No, Rickard and Kearns wanted to make sure they matched Dempsey with guys who they had no doubt he would beat: Miske (who Dempsey readily admitted he knew was sick), Brennan who Dempsey had already KOd and who most didnt expect to go two rounds with, Carpentier, promoted to the title based on style over substance, Gibbons who had actually LOST HIS ELIMINATION BOUT to face Dempsey against Greb, Firpo who was a total fabrication of a contender created entirely by Rickard for the sole purpose of having another million dollar gate by matching Dempsey against an exotic opponent (he tried the same thing later with Chilean Quintin Romero Rojas but Rojas couldnt even get past the guys Rickard was trying to set him up with, and Tunney who they picked because he had been carefully matched and largely unproven, they figured he would not be competetive with Dempsey. Remember, theres a reason that fight was in Philly. It was because Dempsey had been banned from fighting in New York for ducking his #1 contender for SEVEN years.


While i'm not very impressed with Firpo's ability on film, i think he compiled a pretty good record going into the Dempsey fight. I think he was a legit top guy.

[SuzieQ49]

While i'm not very impressed with Firpo's ability on film, i think he compiled a pretty good record going into the Dempsey fight. I think he was a legit top guy.


sure he was a top puncher and legit guy, but firpo had dempsey down 3 times and knocked out, if not for the typwriter saving jack. wills floored firpo twice and won every round against firpo.

[Mendoza]

so you believe dempsey accomplished more in the era than harry wills did? I would LOVE to hear how.

Dempsey was lineal champion, had more spectular results, and was the first million dollar gate fighter. History remembers him far more than Wills. You could argue Dempsey is more accomplished.

While Wills did not get a chance to fight Dempsey, Wills defiantly avoided George Godfrey. Godfrey's manger tired to make the match several times. Wills vs Godfrey would have been HUGE.

As McVey point outs, Wills holds many wins over past their prime versions of Sam McVey and Sam Langford. I tend to believe the black fighters of the 20’s aside from Godfrey who Wills never fought were a very weak lot in general.

[Mendoza]

sure he was a top puncher and legit guy, but firpo had dempsey down 3 times and knocked out, if not for the typwriter saving jack. wills floored firpo twice and won every round against firpo.

A typewriter saved Dempsey? That is funny. If anything, you do not want to fall on machinery. While Firpo did catch Dempsey, its amazing how easily Dempsey put Frio away, and Wills could not for the full distance. I believe Dempsey hit harder than Wills, and was much quicker.

I read the news review regarding the Firpo and Wills fight. Wills was called more of a wrestler than a fighter. Wills won, but it was not impressive.

[mcvey]

so you believe dempsey accomplished more in the era than harry wills did? I would LOVE to hear how.
That isnt the subject of my post the question I posed is "Is Wills Overated?" Your post was is he Underated?.,I mentioned my belief that Dempsey would have stopped Wills ,that is a personal opinion,and has no bearing on "who accomplished more ".I think you could make a case that as Dempsey actually won the title ,he accomplished more,plus he was only kod once when young and callow against Flynn in what may have been a "tank job".Whereas Wills was kod several times .Dempsey featured in the million dollar gate he was a household name ,he went on a world tour ,made big bucks ,bedded Filmstars and became personal friends with the likes of Fairbanks,Valentino,Chaplin ,Getty.It depends how you define accomplishments.You may think Wills met better competition ,and ,as a result accumulated more losses,but we are really arguing about wether he is under ,or over rated aren't we Suzie?

[mcvey]

sure he was a top puncher and legit guy, but firpo had dempsey down 3 times and knocked out, if not for the typwriter saving jack. wills floored firpo twice and won every round against firpo.
The type writer ,owned by Jack Lawrence ,actually did Dempsey no favours at all,Jack landed on it and tore his rectum open,lying sprawled on the writers table he kicked one of the judges in the eye in his rage ,trying to get back in the ring,the writers ,out of self preservation pushed him away from them,as he screamed in his high piping voice ,"get me back in there ,I'll fix that son of a bitch".That comes from a statement made by famous writer Hype Igoe ,and is backed up by Lawrence the owner of the type writer .Dempsey ,far from being nearly out ,was in a rage, spiiting blood

[mcvey]

Dempsey was lineal champion, had more spectular results, and was the first million dollar gate fighter. History remembers him far more than Wills. You could argue Dempsey is more accomplished.

While Wills did not get a chance to fight Dempsey, Wills defiantly avoided George Godfrey. Godfrey's manger tired to make the match several times. Wills vs Godfrey would have been HUGE.

As McVey point outs, Wills holds many wins over past their prime versions of Sam McVey and Sam Langford. I tend to believe the black fighters of the 20’s aside from Godfrey who Wills never fought were a very weak lot in general.
Ive read articles from the old Ring mags saying Wills manager fed him a diet of "well chewd meat ",while he waited for a chance to fight Dempsey ,King Tut amd Kid Norfolk were undersized and also quite old when Wills beat them,reports talk of Tut visibly trembling when he faced the very large Wills.I don't blame Wills manager ,why jeopardize a chance at the title by taking on the likes of Godfrey.But it is a little ironic that Wills may have avoided the original Big George as much or more than Dempsey is accused of avoiding him.
After all Dempsey did sign for the Wills fight.

[Mendoza]

The type writer ,owned by Jack Lawrence ,actually did Dempsey no favours at all,Jack landed on it and tore his rectum open,lying sprawled on the writers table he kicked one of the judges in the eye in his rage ,trying to get back in the ring,the writers ,out of self preservation pushed him away from them,as he screamed in his high piping voice ,"get me back in there ,I'll fix that son of a bitch".That comes from a statement made by famous writer Hype Igoe ,and is backed up by Lawrence the owner of the type writer .Dempsey ,far from being nearly out ,was in a rage, spiiting blood

Right. Guys who are out of it, never come close to getting back into the ring, let alone flooring and taking out their opponents in the next round.

[mcvey]

sure he was a top puncher and legit guy, but firpo had dempsey down 3 times and knocked out, if not for the typwriter saving jack. wills floored firpo twice and won every round against firpo.
Just like to say Suzie ,Ive enjoyed the argument with you,very stimulating!

[SuzieQ49]

kid norfolk was a top ranked great fighter who wills lambasted in 2 rounds(i dont think norfolk was that old when wills knocked him out norfolk was still a top rated fighter at the time who had just whupped flowers and greb.., dempseys camp refused to fight norfolk and greb.......especially norfolk since dempsey drew the colour line. McVey, i enjoy every minute of it. wills vs dempsey is very interesting, as is debating with a great mind like you.

[SuzieQ49]

Right. Guys who are out of it, never come close to getting back into the ring, let alone flooring and taking out their opponents in the next round.


its common knowledge dempsey was knocked out of the ring and the typewriter had to push dempsey back into the ring so he could make the count on time. had he not gotten help from typewriter, it would have been a firpo KO 1 dempsey.

[Maxmomer]

Thoughts on the Firpo fight: I think the typewriter did more harm than good. And it's also worth noting that one of those KD's was barely even a flash knockdown. Also worth noting, Dempsey was out on his feet after the first KD and still dominated the round, then came out fresher for the second and took care of business in quick time. Also, I don't believe Dempsey was prime for that fight.

[Maxmomer]

its common knowledge dempsey was knocked out of the ring and the typewriter had to push dempsey back into the ring so he could make the count on time. had he not gotten help from typewriter, it would have been a firpo KO 1 dempsey.

Did the typewriter grow arms and legs? Sorry, I'm high and the idea of a typewriter with limbs amused me. Just a misunderstanding.

[ChrisPontius]

Ive read articles from the old Ring mags saying Wills manager fed him a diet of "well chewd meat ",while he waited for a chance to fight Dempsey ,King Tut amd Kid Norfolk were undersized and also quite old when Wills beat them,reports talk of Tut visibly trembling when he faced the very large Wills.I don't blame Wills manager ,why jeopardize a chance at the title by taking on the likes of Godfrey.But it is a little ironic that Wills may have avoided the original Big George as much or more than Dempsey is accused of avoiding him.
After all Dempsey did sign for the Wills fight.

Norfolk and Tut undersized? What about Gibbons, Carpentier and Tunney? It goes both ways.

[mcvey]

Norfolk and Tut undersized? What about Gibbons, Carpentier and Tunney? It goes both ways.
Norfolk was 5 8 to Wills 6' 3 ''or 4'' and giving him around 40lbs.

[mcvey]

Thoughts on the Firpo fight: I think the typewriter did more harm than good. And it's also worth noting that one of those KD's was barely even a flash knockdown. Also worth noting, Dempsey was out on his feet after the first KD and still dominated the round, then came out fresher for the second and took care of business in quick time. Also, I don't believe Dempsey was prime for that fight.
You are correct Dempsey was in more trouble from the 1st knockdown,infact between rounds he asked Kearns" what round was I knocked out in ?".Kearns replied "Yah still in there keep punching and knock this bum out".This is taken from Dempsey's biography,Jack was in total command of his senses when he was on the writers table ,his only concern was to get back in the ring and pulverise Firpo.

[klompton]

Norfolk was five eight but he weighed a solid 180 pounds and was one of the top light heavies/heavies of the teens and twenties. Gibbons who got a shot ducked him for years before finally fighting him when he was shot, he beat Miske who got a shot, he would have demolished Carp who got a shot, he actually dominated Siki who demolished Carp. When Dempsey had so much trouble in his defense against Brennan the reporters afterwards advised him to avoid Norfolk who was in Brennans stable and helped him prepare for Dempsey and looked better than Brennan.

[PowerPuncher]

So what if we compare Wills and Dempseys resume head to head:

Langford: won 17 lost 2 (31yo first fight)
McVey (30yo first fight)
Jeanete (34yo first fight)
Kid Norfolk (prime)
Denver Ed Martin: 1st round ko
Firpo
Fulton: 3rd round ko
Meehan
Bill Tate
Jeff Clark

VERSUS

Sharkey (cheated)
Willard
Firpo
Levinski
Gibbons
Carpentier
Gunboat Smith
Fulton: ko1
Flyn: 1-1
Meehan: 1-2-2
Miske:1-1-0
Breenan

Overall Wills fought and beat the better fighters, pity neither fought Greb

[SuzieQ49]

Meehan: 1-2-2

is that seriousely dempseys record against meehan? thats awful

[mcvey]

So what if we compare Wills and Dempseys resume head to head:

Langford: won 17 lost 2 (31yo first fight)
McVey (30yo first fight)
Jeanete (34yo first fight)
Kid Norfolk (prime)
Denver Ed Martin: 1st round ko
Firpo
Fulton: 3rd round ko
Meehan
Bill Tate
Jeff Clark

VERSUS

Sharkey (cheated)
Willard
Firpo
Levinski
Gibbons
Carpentier
Gunboat Smith
Fulton: ko1
Flyn: 1-1
Meehan: 1-2-2
Miske:1-1-0
Breenan

Overall Wills fought and beat the better fighters, pity neither fought Greb
Dempsey's record against Meehan was 1 w 2l 1d
His record against Miske is2w 1d.
It should be noted that Meehan had wins over
Jim Barry ko 3rds
Jeff Clark pts
Langford pts
Al Norton pts
Jack Dillon pts
And draws with Al Norton x2,Tom Cowler,and Miske.

[mcvey]

So what if we compare Wills and Dempseys resume head to head:

Langford: won 17 lost 2 (31yo first fight)
McVey (30yo first fight)
Jeanete (34yo first fight)
Kid Norfolk (prime)
Denver Ed Martin: 1st round ko
Firpo
Fulton: 3rd round ko
Meehan
Bill Tate
Jeff Clark

VERSUS

Sharkey (cheated)
Willard
Firpo
Levinski
Gibbons
Carpentier
Gunboat Smith
Fulton: ko1
Flyn: 1-1
Meehan: 1-2-2
Miske:1-1-0
Breenan

Overall Wills fought and beat the better fighters, pity neither fought Greb
You left out Tunney.

[ChrisPontius]

Norfolk was 5 8 to Wills 6' 3 ''or 4'' and giving him around 40lbs.
I know, i'm just pointing out that it is weird to say Wills was fighting an undersized opponent, when Dempsey did just the same on several occasions.

Whether Wills had a bigger size advantage or not is irrelevant, since we're talking heayvweights and not pound for pound.

[mcvey]

Would you think it a great win if Wlad kod Calzaghe or Hopkins?

[Cojimar 1945]

Langford had considerable experience when he was stopped by Joe Jeannette and Young Peter Jackson but I would not consider him to have been in his prime in these fights.

[ChrisPontius]

Would you think it a great win if Wlad kod Calzaghe or Hopkins?

You think it would be a great win if Dempsey KO'd Carpentier or went the distance with Gibbons?

[mcvey]

I think the Gibbons win was a very good one and Gibbons was only stopped once in his last fight ,the weight diffential between Dempsey and Gibbons was only 12 1/2 lbs, not the 40lbs plus Norfolk conceded to Wills ,plus they were around the same height.The Carpentier fight was a mismatch I think,but a very lucrative one.

[PowerPuncher]

You left out Tunney.

I listed a wins comparison, Tunney fights were losses, sorry it wasnt clear

[mcvey]

I listed a wins comparison, Tunney fights were losses, sorry it wasnt clear
As you included losses I thought you had forgotten Tunney ,no matter.

[PowerPuncher]

Would you think it a great win if Wlad kod Calzaghe or Hopkins?

Would be a better comparison to say Wlad ko'd Toney or Tua or lets say Hopkins/Calazage beat a few HW contenders, then its a good comparison

If your discounting Wills win over the highly rated Norfolk jsut because hes a LHW you have to do the same for other fighters. So I presume you are discounting some of Dempsey's better wins over former light heavies too, ie Gibbons, Carpentier, Miske (coming off a loss to Norfolk), Levinski