Who do you have higher in all-time p4p terms and why: MONZON or WHITAKER

[DINAMITA]

I always thought Whitaker, but I've been researching Monzon a bit lately, and I'm starting to question who was the greater of the two. I don't think either were as just as good as Duran or Leonard, I think both were slightly better than Hagler or Arguello, but I can't decide who was better of the two just now.

Thoughts/opinions?


An additional question those who post: do you have BOTH, EITHER ONE, or NONE in your top 10 of all-time?

[McGrain]

I rate Whitaker at #20 and Monzon at #24, I think, so very, very close. I think a case can be made for either. I think peak for peak Whitaker looks better on film and he achieved more at more weights, so I 'm happy with his slight lead of Carlos.

[Russell]

Whitaker.

A good number of Monzon's most lauded and recognizable wins are over fighters moving up, fighters much smaller than him. Not a good thing when discussing things in a P4P sense.

[the cobra]

I actually have Whitaker one spot above Monzon. Both roughly around #15-20.

As with McGrain, my reasoning is Pernell's success in multiple weights, being a rare fighter in the sense that he was a quite dominant champion in two divisions along with his belts in the other two, and that as brilliant as Monzon was, Pernell has always impressed me more. I can see the case for Monzon rating higher, or for Pernell being several spots above him. Really just depends on how you rate fighters, but I believe most will have Whitaker higher.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Russell
Whitaker.

A good number of Monzon's most lauded and recognizable wins are over fighters moving up, fighters much smaller than him. Not a good thing when discussing things in a P4P sense.
True, but Pernell's best win, Nelson, also fits into that catagory (although it's not like there was a big size difference). Also, while Griffith was smaller, he's certainly a top 15 at middleweight and arguably top 10, where as Pernell never beat anyone who rates that highly at any of the divisions he beat them. Valdez is around #15 all-time at middleweight, and Benvenuti is around 20 himself. Because he beat three fighters, one that is probably inside or around the top 20 at the weight, one around 15, and one around 10, as well as Briscoe who is probably a top 30 at middle, and Napoles who while much smaller is likely a top 5 at welter, he arguably has the better resume even though Pernell beat men naturally bigger where as Monzon never did.

[natonic]

I rate Monzon a little higher. Yes, Whitaker excelled moving up in 5 to 7 pound incremements. Guys like Monzon and Hagler had huge 15 pound jumps to move up. There didn't seem to be too much demand to do it either.
I'd give Whitaker an edge defensively but not as big as the edge I'd give Monzon offensively.

[redrooster]

Monzon 25 on my p4p list while Whitaker is 46. Keep in mind there are hundreds of fighters worth consideration

[redrooster]

I actually have Hector Camacho ranked above Pernell too

[Sweet Pea]

I actually have Hector Camacho ranked above Pernell tooYour rankings are meaningless, as always.

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker.

A good number of Monzon's most lauded and recognizable wins are over fighters moving up, fighters much smaller than him. Not a good thing when discussing things in a P4P sense.His MW resume is better than the likes of Hagler and FAR greater than that of Hopkins. The smaller fighters he faced in Griffith and Napoles were better than any of the ones Hopkins faced, Griffith being a more accomplished MW than anyone Hagler faced, period. Not to mention his multiple wins over Valdez, Briscoe, Benvenuti, etc.

[Robbi]

I actually have Hector Camacho ranked above Pernell too

You're a comedian and clearly not serious.

[redrooster]

You're a comedian and clearly not serious.

People act like it's an insult to be ranked below Hector but just remember how he went unbeaten for an entire decade, somthing few have ever been able to do. Their styles are very similar; both hard to hit southpaws, both have great chins and both are stylists but Hector had the greater handspeed thats why he ranks higher :p

[Robbi]

People act like it's an insult to be ranked below Hector but just remember how he went unbeaten for an entire decade, somthing few have ever been able to do. Their styles are very similar; both hard to hit southpaws, both have great chins and both are stylists but Hector had the greater handspeed thats WHY he ranks higher :p

I'm speechless. One fighter over another 'pound for pound' soley based on handspeed. You need to go back to the drawing board regarding your criteria when ranking fighters.

Next you'll be telling me Camacho ranks higher because he had smarter shorts than Whitaker. It wouldn't surprise me if you did. :lol:

[redrooster]

I'm speechless. One fighter over another 'pound for pound' soley based on handspeed. You need to go back to the drawing board regarding your criteria when ranking fighters.

Next you'll be telling me Camacho ranks higher because he had smarter shorts than Whitaker. It wouldn't surprise me if you did. :lol:

Robbi I keep thinking i'm talking to sweet pea with that avatar you got!!

I like pernell with all his skills. I dont like to say this but his skills were more than enough to embarrass Chavez. But I really dont think he would have been as successful with Hector Camacho. Hector would have have been split seconds faster than him and would pull ahead of him on the scorecards.

That's how a fight between the two of them in their primes would have gone-honest!

[lfsdan]

Monzon without a doubt. One of the top 3 middles of all time surely garnishes him a spot over Whitaker.

[Loewe]

I always thought Whitaker, but I've been researching Monzon a bit lately, and I'm starting to question who was the greater of the two. I don't think either were as just as good as Duran or Leonard, I think both were slightly better than Hagler or Arguello, but I can't decide who was better of the two just now.

Thoughts/opinions?


An additional question those who post: do you have BOTH, EITHER ONE, or NONE in your top 10 of all-time?
Very close imo. Personally both are in my Top20. Monzon is in my Tier 4 equaling a ranking between 11 and 14 alongside Ali, Louis and Pep while Whitaker is in my Tier 5 equaling a ranking between 15 and 17 alongside Wilde and Benny Leonard.

I think Monzon has a slightly superior resume what is equaled by Whitaker´s work a t the higher weights but Monzon accomplishment of 14 defences of the mw title his dominance over his opponents and him going out beating his heir two times puts him in the league of Ali, Louis and Pep as the best one-division fighters ever and just edges out Whitaker.

I have to add that I don´t have a p4p list. P4p is h2h and I don´t make h2h lists. I have only an atg list based mainly on accomplishments, resume, longevity and so on.

[Loewe]

I rate Monzon a little higher. Yes, Whitaker excelled moving up in 5 to 7 pound incremements. Guys like Monzon and Hagler had huge 15 pound jumps to move up. There didn't seem to be too much demand to do it either.
I'd give Whitaker an edge defensively but not as big as the edge I'd give Monzon offensively.

Yeah but moving from mw to lhw isn´t as hard as moving from lw to ww ;)

[Holmes' Jab]

Whitaker.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Very very close, I have both challenging for Top 10-15 places. Edge to Monzon I think. I'm not as impressed with weight-jumpers as some (unless it's the Proper weights and they're beating the top man in said division) but Pernell's Light and Welter wins were impressive.

[Ezzard]

Monzon for me but both are greats.

Carlos dominated a strong division and I have him further up the mW ladder than Whittaker is up the LW ladder. Super fighters though

[McGrain]

Very very close, I have both challenging for Top 10-15 places. Edge to Monzon I think. I'm not as impressed with weight-jumpers as some (unless it's the Proper weights and they're beating the top man in said division) but Pernell's Light and Welter wins were impressive.

Who is that shadowboxing in front of an "Everton for The Cup" poster? It's not him is it?

[McGrain]

Nah, it's not him. Who is it?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Who is that shadowboxing in front of an "Everton for The Cup" poster? It's not him is it?


It's him mate. The great Bunny Sterling. :good

[McGrain]

It's him mate. The great Bunny Sterling. :good

:lol:

Well nice find.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yeah, it's him. Hyde Park 66.

[Robbi]

Robbi I keep thinking i'm talking to sweet pea with that avatar you got!

Why? I've had Whitaker avatars on show for a long time. Did you just notice?

[BritInvasion]

I'd have Monzon marginally higher, but its a tough pick. They're both kinda super elite, but still not quite top 10 guys. I like Monzon's dominance of an era / division.