Sugar Ray Robinson - is it even acceptable to have him at #9 p4p?

[DINAMITA]

This is NOT my top 8, BUT to the Classic Forum I ask, if someone had this top 8 with Robinson at #9, would you think it was (a) agreeable, (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree, (c) plainly wrong to the point of stupid, (d) utterly laughable???

1.Harry Greb
2.Sam Langford
3.Henry Armstrong
4.Willie Pep
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Ezzard Charles
7.Roberto Duran
8.Joe Louis
9.Sugar Ray Robinson


TO ALL THOSE WHO SAY (c) and (d)...

then what is the lowest you could accept having him on this list before you would change to: (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree???

[Russell]

This wouldn't of fit in my Robinson thread? :D

[redrooster]

This is NOT my top 8, BUT to the Classic Forum I ask, if someone had this top 8 with Robinson at #9, would you think it was (a) agreeable, (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree, (c) plainly wrong to the point of stupid, (d) utterly laughable???

1.Harry Greb
2.Sam Langford
3.Henry Armstrong
4.Willie Pep
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Ezzard Charles
7.Roberto Duran
8.Joe Louis
9.Sugar Ray Robinson


TO ALL THOSE WHO SAY (c) and (d)...

then what is the lowest you could accept having him on this list before you would change to: (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree???

Did not Ray Robinson win an easy decision over Armstrong?

Robinson is up there with Roy Jones

[Sweet Pea]

No way he's out of the top 4. No way in hell Louis outranks him.

[Loewe]

Look at Russel´s Robinson thread, it´s basically the same.

[McGrain]

d), and the lowest would be 4, 5 at a push but it requires explanation.

[PowerPuncher]

This is NOT my top 8, BUT to the Classic Forum I ask, if someone had this top 8 with Robinson at #9, would you think it was (a) agreeable, (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree, (c) plainly wrong to the point of stupid, (d) utterly laughable???

1.Harry Greb
2.Sam Langford
3.Henry Armstrong
4.Willie Pep
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Ezzard Charles
7.Roberto Duran
8.Joe Louis
9.Sugar Ray Robinson


TO ALL THOSE WHO SAY (c) and (d)...

then what is the lowest you could accept having him on this list before you would change to: (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree???

Given that Ali said Robinson was P4P superior and the number 1 its a little odd having him above SRR.

[DINAMITA]

Given that Ali said Robinson was P4P superior and the number 1 its a little odd having him above SRR.

I don't see why that matters at all. If Amir Khan says he is better than Floyd Mayweather, is that automatically truth as well then just because a boxer said it? I make my own decisions, and my own decision is that Robinson should be ahead of Ali, but that's because of the evidence to support this, not because one man said so. It's likely that someone like Roberto Duran would show deference to a legend like Ali by saying that Ali was the GOAT or that he does not rank himself as equal to a man like Ali. Would that then make it automatically true with no need to think it over yourself? I would still go with Duran even if he did say either of those things.

[PowerPuncher]

I don't see why that matters at all. If Amir Khan says he is better than Floyd Mayweather, is that automatically truth as well then just because a boxer said it? I make my own decisions, and my own decision is that Robinson should be ahead of Ali, but that's because of the evidence to support this, not because one man said so. It's likely that someone like Roberto Duran would show deference to a legend like Ali by saying that Ali was the GOAT or that he does not rank himself as equal to a man like Ali. Would that then make it automatically true with no need to think it over yourself? I would still go with Duran even if he did say either of those things.

It does matter because Ali is admitting Robinson is better on a P4P basis, rather than saying hes the greatest P4P fighter. He is showing respect to a legend BUT Ali didn't show any respect to Louis saying he'd easily pick Louis apart. Incidently Ali also showed allot of respect for Jack Johnson

Few would rank Ali over Robinson P4P because of the technical mistakes Ali makes and Robinson being more complete

It should be noted Robinson also has 'easy' wins over Armstrong and Pepp (amateurs I believe)

[mightyd40]

the lowest robinson should be ranked without me asking why would be 3-4. any lower than that and i believe the person making the list is either a.) a hater or b.) looking for attention

[Minotauro]

I think he would have to be top five I don't think Duran, Louis or Ali should rank above him.

[PowerPuncher]

the lowest robinson should be ranked without me asking why would be 3-4. any lower than that and i believe the person making the list is either a.) a hater or b.) looking for attention

TBH I think anyone picking Armstrong over Robinson is trying to be a pseudo-boxing interlectual. The facts simply don't add up

[TommyV]

Sugar Ray Robinson has to be in the top 4. Along with Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong and Harry Greb. Order of those doesn't matter. Personally I have Langford, Greb, Robinson, Armstrong in that order. But I wouldn't disagree with any order. But those 4 have to be the top 4.

[he grant]

Don't forget Wlad Klitiscko ... I'm sure many here rate himj in the top five all time pound for pound ... :lol:

[TommyV]

Don't forget Wlad Klitiscko ... I'm sure many here rate himj in the top five all time pound for pound ... :lol:

Wlad's is shaky not glass.

EDIT: Sorry wrong thread I thought this was the glass jaw thread. :rofl

[Sweet Pea]

It does matter because Ali is admitting Robinson is better on a P4P basis, rather than saying hes the greatest P4P fighter. He is showing respect to a legend BUT Ali didn't show any respect to Louis saying he'd easily pick Louis apart. Incidently Ali also showed allot of respect for Jack Johnson

Few would rank Ali over Robinson P4P because of the technical mistakes Ali makes and Robinson being more complete

It should be noted Robinson also has 'easy' wins over Armstrong and Pepp (amateurs I believe)No. Armstrong was shot at the time Robinson beat him by 10 round Decision, whereas Pep was a smaller amateur. Not nearly as notable as you make out.

[PowerPuncher]

No. Armstrong was shot at the time Robinson beat him by 10 round Decision, whereas Pep was a smaller amateur. Not nearly as notable as you make out.

I dispute Armstrong was shot, he was coming off career best wins near the time and it was an easy win for SRR who was only a 3year pro himself. Past prime yes, but no Armstrong gets anywhere close to beating Robinson

Robinson was below 135 as an amateur and in 1940 there was only 5lbs between their weigh in weights as Pepp was weighing 130.

Lets be clear Robinson started his career as a lightweight

[stevebhoy87]

d), and the lowest would be 4, 5 at a push but it requires explanation.

I agree with this, i would not really like to see him below 4 and the only way i could see 4 boxers ranked above him would be if they where langford, greb, armstrong and charles, no one else even has a case IMO. For me though he is no1

I can see no argument for having ali,duran,pep and louis in front of him none at all

[stevebhoy87]

I dispute Armstrong was shot, he was coming off career best wins near the time and it was an easy win for SRR who was only a 3year pro himself. Past prime yes, but no Armstrong gets anywhere close to beating Robinson

Robinson was below 135 as an amateur and in 1940 there was only 5lbs between their weigh in weights as Pepp was weighing 130.

Lets be clear Robinson started his career as a lightweight

While i agree that no armstrong would ever get near SRR, from the reports i've read of the fight he was clearly shot and ray held backed and carried him as henry was one of his heroes

[PowerPuncher]

While i agree that no armstrong would ever get near SRR, from the reports i've read of the fight he was clearly shot and ray held backed and carried him as henry was one of his heroes

SRR dominating doesn't necessarily state hes shot, look at who Armstrong beat near to the fight:

Joyce (1month prior) - beat Ike Williams a load of times and Armstrong himself

Angott (3months prior) - beat Williams, Pepp, Saron, Arismendi, Dayas lightweight world champ

Zivic (10months prior) - beats the man who dethroned him

Past prime yes, shot? I don't think so

[stevebhoy87]

SRR dominating doesn't necessarily state hes shot, look at who Armstrong beat near to the fight:

Joyce (1month prior) - beat Ike Williams a load of times and Armstrong himself

Angott (3months prior) - beat Williams, Pepp, Saron, Arismendi, Dayas lightweight world champ

Zivic (10months prior) - beats the man who dethroned him

Past prime yes, shot? I don't think so

Fighters can just go that quickly to being shot though, espicially armstrong and the way he fought its possible, for instance morales after pac 1 was the same, he just wasn't the same fighter again, it happens. Its difficult to say for sure with armstrong as all i'm going on is reports of there fight, and everyone i've read said henry wasn't just over the hill but shot to pieces

Shame we haven't got the video to judge, would be a fight i would be very intrested to watch

[PowerPuncher]

Fighters can just go that quickly to being shot though, espicially armstrong and the way he fought its possible, for instance morales after pac 1 was the same, he just wasn't the same fighter again, it happens. Its difficult to say for sure with armstrong as all i'm going on is reports of there fight, and everyone i've read said henry wasn't just over the hill but shot to pieces

Shame we haven't got the video to judge, would be a fight i would be very intrested to watch

Well he also went on to beat Joyce again the following year. A shorter walking forward pressure fighter would always be bread and butter for Robinson

Interesting you brought up Morales, he was 1-5 in his last 6 with his sole win against Pacman, a bit of an overrated win for Pacquaio (although I thought Morales could have edged Diaz in his last fight). Morales also blew up between fights to around 180, that was always going to catch up to him

[Stonehands89]

SRR dominating doesn't necessarily state hes shot, look at who Armstrong beat near to the fight:

Joyce (1month prior) - beat Ike Williams a load of times and Armstrong himself

Angott (3months prior) - beat Williams, Pepp, Saron, Arismendi, Dayas lightweight world champ

Zivic (10months prior) - beats the man who dethroned him

Past prime yes, shot? I don't think so
And you would be correct in this assertion.

("PEPP" is PEP!)

[ripcity]

ATG lists are opinion and not fact so if someone ranks Sugar Ray Robinson #9 that is their choice. Personaly I think that ranking is low, I have him #3 which many off you will think is also low.

[tylerrcurtis]

1 no other place to put him he is 1 and will always be 1

[sebcfc]

Robinson has to be top 4, no questions

[Nemesis]

I have him around nr 6

[Holmes' Jab]

4 at the lowest. He's my #2.

[Bill Butcher]

This is NOT my top 8, BUT to the Classic Forum I ask, if someone had this top 8 with Robinson at #9, would you think it was (a) agreeable, (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree, (c) plainly wrong to the point of stupid, (d) utterly laughable???

1.Harry Greb
2.Sam Langford
3.Henry Armstrong
4.Willie Pep
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Ezzard Charles
7.Roberto Duran
8.Joe Louis
9.Sugar Ray Robinson


TO ALL THOSE WHO SAY (c) and (d)...

then what is the lowest you could accept having him on this list before you would change to: (b) perfectly valid even though you disagree???

Im somewhere between (B) & (C) because I dont think a list like that is perfectly valid but I feel its plainly wrong but probably not as far as to call it stupid as all 8 above him were indeed ATGs.

I think probably 4/possibly 5 is the lowest I could see Robinson on a top 10 lists without feeling the need to fire 101 questions at the list maker.

:thumbsup

[DINAMITA]

To every one who has commented: take Duran, Ali and Louis out of the equation then - is it acceptable to have him at no.6??? a, b, c or d now?

Which of the 5 is it impossible to have him below then?

[Nemesis]

To every one who has commented: take Duran, Ali and Louis out of the equation then - is it acceptable to have him at no.6??? a, b, c or d now?

Which of the 5 is it impossible to have him below then?

Pep!

You seem to have a hard on for resume's and yet you have Pep above him.

[Danny]

I have Ray Robinson at NO.1 P4P, followed closely by Henry Armstrong. For me, those two are a lock for 1 & 2 respectively!

In relation to the orignal post, how anyone can have Robinson as low as NO.9 I do not know? But hey, you no doubt have your reasons & that's what makes boxing brilliant, we can always debate about things!

Put it this way, they do not make fighters like Ray Robinson anymore 7 there will probably never be fighters like his calibre anymore. Just can't see it happening!

[salsanchezfan]

............I'm afraid the author of such a list would, by Classic Forum Law, be turned away from these boards, sent out with nothing more than a change of clothes and a small turnip for sustenance while he tries to make his way into the fold in more questionable neighborhoods.


I'm sorry, this is the only way. :bart

[My2Sense]

No way in hell Louis outranks him.

Nor should Willie Pep.

Pep only won a title in one division, didn't have quite the resume or the longevity Robinson did, and arguably wasn't even the best ever in his one division (Saddler arguably outranks him, and some might put Salvador Sanchez over him too).

I question even putting Pep in the top 10, let alone over Robinson.

[DINAMITA]

Pep!

You seem to have a hard on for resume's and yet you have Pep above him.

Fucking hell. At least read the first sentence of the thread before making judgements.

[DINAMITA]

I have Ray Robinson at NO.1 P4P, followed closely by Henry Armstrong. For me, those two are a lock for 1 & 2 respectively!

In relation to the orignal post, how anyone can have Robinson as low as NO.9 I do not know? But hey, you no doubt have your reasons & that's what makes boxing brilliant, we can always debate about things!

Put it this way, they do not make fighters like Ray Robinson anymore 7 there will probably never be fighters like his calibre anymore. Just can't see it happening!

Again, see the first sentence of the thread.

[DINAMITA]

............I'm afraid the author of such a list would, by Classic Forum Law, be turned away from these boards, sent out with nothing more than a change of clothes and a small turnip for sustenance while he tries to make his way into the fold in more questionable neighborhoods.


I'm sorry, this is the only way. :bart

:lol:

I'll take it my question has been answered! Thank you Classic - it is unacceptable!

My friend said he thought people would think it was acceptable to have Robinson around #9 even if they disagreed because he was not regarded as that far ahead of the guys I mentioned in the start of the thread. I posted it to see who was right. It was I. I have Robinson in a top 5 with Langford, Greb, Duran and Armstrong, but I have not and probably never will decide on the correct order 1-5.

[salsanchezfan]

:lol:

I'll take it my question has been answered! Thank you Classic - it is unacceptable!

My friend said he thought people would think it was acceptable to have Robinson around #9 even if they disagreed because he was not regarded as that far ahead of the guys I mentioned in the start of the thread. I posted it to see who was right. It was I. I have Robinson in a top 5 with Langford, Greb, Duran and Armstrong, but I have not and probably never will decide on the correct order 1-5.



............Well, I was joking of course. And you're right, it's all a bit silly anyway to say "so-and-so is of course #37 on the list, and I have a list of reasons why he should be there in lieu of so-and-so." I have no patience for that kind of crap myself. One list is really about as good as another.



..........And remember to pick up your turnip. :blood

[DINAMITA]

............Well, I was joking of course. And you're right, it's all a bit silly anyway to say "so-and-so is of course #37 on the list, and I have a list of reasons why he should be there in lieu of so-and-so." I have no patience for that kind of crap myself. One list is really about as good as another.



..........And remember to pick up your turnip. :blood

Ha ha, will do, cheers amigo! :lol: :good