Tyson and Ali showing the difference between punching power and punching ability

[ChrisPontius]

Sorry, no video. :yep

But here is an interesting observation. Let's investigate the statistics of how Tyson and Ali performed during their absolute primes:


Mike Tyson: 37-0-0 (34 KO).

A total KO percentage of 92% with only James Tillis, Tony Tucker, James Smith and Mitch Green going the distance.

Muhammad Ali: 28-0-0 (22).

A 79% total KO percentage with Hunsaker (6 rounds), Johnson (10 r), Sabedong (10 r), Jones (10 r), Chuvalo (15 r), Terrel (15 r) lasting the distance.

Tyson has the edge here.


Now, let's examine how they did against contenders,fringe contenders and champions:

Mike Tyson:


James Tillis - Decision 10 rounds
Mitch Green - Decision 10 rounds
Trevor Berbick - TKO2
James Smith - Decision 12 rounds
Pinklon Thomas - TKO6
Tony Tucker - Decision 12 rounds
Tyrell Biggs - TKO7
Larry Holmes - TKO4
Tony Tubbs - TKO2
Michael Spinks - KO1
Frank Bruno - TKO5
Carl Williams - TKO1

A record of 12-0-0 (8KO), meaning a 67% knockout percentage.

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Now, looking at Ali's better opponents:
Muhammad Ali:


Alex Miteff - TKO6 - Miteff was ranked in the ring top10 when they fought
Billy Daniels - TKO7 - Dito
Alejandro Lavorante - KO5 (Lavorante 2:1 favorite)
Archie Moore - TKO4
Doug Jones - Decision 10 rounds
Henry Cooper - TKO5
Sonny Liston - TKO6
Sonny Liston II - KO1 (dubious, but no Ali's fault he didn't the distance)
Floyd Patterson - TKO12
George Chuvalo - Decision 15 rounds
Henry Cooper II - TKO6
Brain London - KO3
Karl Mildenberger - TKO12
Cleveland Williams - TKO3
Zora Foley - TKO7
Ernie Terrel - Decision 15 rounds

A record of 16-0-0 (13 KO), amounting to a knockout percentage of 81%!



So, here is the astonishing thing.

Looking at how they performed against top opposition - Ali is actually the more dangerous hitter than Tyson, as witnessed by a KO percentage of 81% against Mike's 67!

It is also clear that Tyson is great at putting away inferior opponents, which is shown by his significantly higher knockout ratio when including tomato cans, journeymen, etc.

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Ali's high stoppage percentage against better opponents in the 60's is not a statistical anomaly: throughout his entire career, he stopped many durable opponents. In the 70's, he stopped Quarry twice, Foreman, Frazier, Lyle and Bonavena. Foreman has only been stopped once in a 15+ year career, Bonavena was never stopped again, Quarry was very durable, and Frazier was only stopped by Foreman. After '75, he seemed to deteriorate so far that he lost his ability to stop opponents and had to rely on other factors to win.


The other interesting thing is that despite all of this, he did not have big one-punch power at all. In 40+ rounds, he never once managed to floor Ken Norton, who was stopped by basically every puncher he faced. Patterson, also not known for his strong chin, was only knocked down once in two fights, although he was stopped. Tyson would obliterate these boxers in a few rounds, but whether he can stop the before mentioned fighters is not a certainty at all.

[McGrain]

Very nice observations, as always.

It works in styles and degrees in my opinion. In short, Tyson's style is built for KO's, an he is aruably the example of a "maxed out" fighter in terms of skillset, for this style.

The same thing is true for Ali, but he is a stylist, a slickster. A "maxed out" (this term is just meant to mean "the best example of his type in the division). Ali, the slickster, has multiple ways to stop opponents. He can stop fighters on accumalation, he can stop them by using their stamina issues against them, Ali was also very good at cutting oposition fighters, as we know.

With Tyson he is looking for the flat concussive KO. If he unable to obtain it he doesn't have the mentality, or the generalship to turn a fighter's weakness against him, or box for accumilation.

In short, Ali's style and tools give him more options as regards ways to stop a fighter than the KO artist. I think this is what we mean when we say sluggers are limited, ironically.

[McGrain]

Patterson's punch resistance is underated.

[fists of fury]

Interesting read, but some points to ponder:

*Styles and reputation:

Most of Ali's opponents chased after him, whereas Tyson often had to open up a defensive-minded fighter. Tyson's reputation as a puncher almost guaranteed him a hard night's work opening up a 'turtle.'

With Ali's opponents mostly coming forward, it was easier for him to score with punches. His opponents weren't as defensive as were Tyson's.

*Mentality

Tyson struggled sometimes and became frustrated when things didn't quite go his way. Ali didn't seem affected by a stubborn foe. This surely would affect their capabilities in the ring.

*Opponents

The opponents you listed for Ali there for me aren't on the same level as the ones listed for Tyson.

For instance, I can't see Tyson having much problem stopping or knocking out the vast majority of fighters listed for Ali, but a few listed for Tyson would most likely take Ali the full route.
Can you include Ali's 70's opponents as a separate statistic for comparison?
Just for interest's sake if for nothing else...say up to '76 when he was still pretty good.

You should also remove the second Liston fight as it was undoubtedly rigged.

Nonetheless, a good thought-provoking thread. Nice work.

[fists of fury]

also very good at cutting oposition fighters, as we know.

With Tyson he is looking for the flat concussive KO. If he unable to obtain it he doesn't have the mentality, or the generalship to turn a fighter's weakness against him, or box for accumilation.

In short, Ali's style and tools give him more options as regards ways to stop a fighter than the KO artist. I think this is what we mean when we say sluggers are limited, ironically.

Good points.

[McGrain]

Interesting read, but some points to ponder:

*Styles and reputation:

Most of Ali's opponents chased after him, whereas Tyson often had to open up a defensive-minded fighter. Tyson's reputation as a puncher almost guaranteed him a hard night's work opening up a 'turtle.'

With Ali's opponents mostly coming forward, it was easier for him to score with punches. His opponents weren't as defensive as were Tyson's.

Fair point.

[teeto]

Good posts, i dont like stats most of the time. But on the point Ali's power, underrated imo.

[fists of fury]

But on the point Ali's power, underrated imo.

I agree. I've always thought he was a better puncher than he's made out to be sometimes. His ungodly timing was also a big factor.

[fists of fury]

Matt, I call your points 'good' but mine are only 'fair'?

I'm not impressed.

[GazOC]

IMHO looking at those "better opponents" lists Tysons list contains a little less "dead wood" than Alis so as soon as you use percentages to score it Tyson loses out.

Levarante being 2:1 favourite surprises me as well....

[McGrain]

Matt, I call your points 'good' but mine are only 'fair'?

I'm not impressed.

:lol:

Fair to middling, I should say.

[fists of fury]

What? You...:D

[teeto]

Haha!

[Bokaj]

*Opponents

The opponents you listed for Ali there for me aren't on the same level as the ones listed for Tyson.

For instance, I can't see Tyson having much problem stopping or knocking out the vast majority of fighters listed for Ali, but a few listed for Tyson would most likely take Ali the full route.

I wouldn't say Tyson's opponents were better than Ali's, but they were bigger and had stronger chins in general. On the other side their stamina was inferior, so I can see Ali stopping many of them in the late rounds, especially over 15.

To be honest, though, I don't see many of Ali's opponents going the distance against a prime Tyson. Terrell would perhaps be a good bet.

Can you include Ali's 70's opponents as a separate statistic for comparison?

One should remember that he had trouble with his hands during the 70's, which made him pull his punches at times. His KO ratio was lower after the exile.

You should also remove the second Liston fight as it was undoubtedly rigged.

That's a convenient cliché isn't it? "Undoubtly", even though there isn't any evidence to support, but some evidence to the contrary.

I any case, you could well argue that Ali could (and should) have KO'd Terrell.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I don't think Ali has particularly good power. If you hit someone often enough they'll go down. There's too many reports of his lack of power to suggest he was a good hitter. Cooper, Patterson were derisory of his ability to whack.


6.5/10 for me. A decent rating.

[My dinner with Conteh]

ps. I haven't read the context of thread by the way, too long for work and with big pics on it. It's obviously good if it's Chris P, but if I'm missing the point anywhere then apologies.

I'll read it in morning. :good

[TommyV]

Was a good read.

A point to make though on styles as fist of fury already mentioned. One is a more cautious counter punch and outside boxer, one is an aggressive brawler. A guy with good ring generalmanship - by which I don't specifically mean as being a clever fighter but more a crude and spoiling runner.

A guy who is perhaps only fringe world-class could potentially survive Tyson if they had a decent/good chin and constantly run around the ring aswell as spoiled, tying him up on the inside just looking to survive. Not saying this would happen all the time but in cases.

However, Ali was a more defensively minded fighter in the sense that he's not the aggressor. I know I don't need to educate people on Ali as I'm sure you all know his style and probably all know more about him than me, but being a more defensively minded counter-puncher obviously you are forcing your opponent to be the aggressor and obviously therefore they are leaving themselves more open and in a more vulnerable position to take shots.

Ali's connect percentage would or at least should of been a lot higher than Tyson's, and I would be willing to bet that looking at their respective KO wins, Ali's opponents would on average have taken a lot more punches leading to the knock out than Tyson's.

While I don't think there's any doubt Tyson had more punching power - and I'm sure your not disputing this but interest just bringing up some points - I do feel Ali's power is under-rated. It wasn't fantastic by any means, but he's not exactly feather-fisted. His ability to throw 'punches in bunches' and land them in combinations was superb and probably attributed to most of his knock outs, rather than one-punch knock outs or two punches even.

While Tyson could put together blistering combinations, he would probably find it harder to land them because of the mentality of his opponents and his style, his opponents would not be as exposed defensively or in as vulnerable positions as Ali's. However of course he had great one-punch knock out power to make up for it.

[abraq]

Good post CP. Very Good observations.

I think some people here are confusing the points CP is trying to make. Nobody is saying (or should be saying) that Ali was a better hitter than Tyson. Quite simply, he wasn't. Tyson hit harder, much harder.

However, there is more than one way to skin a cat and I feel that Ali had the art. Tyson, basically, knew only one way. If that worked, fine. Otherwise, he was at a loss what to do.

[GazOC]

I understand the point I just don't think the lists are similar enough to draw a conclusion.

[JohnThomas1]

ps. I haven't read the context of thread by the way, too long for work and with big pics on it. It's obviously good if it's Chris P, but if I'm missing the point anywhere then apologies.

I'll read it in morning. :good

Yeah, read the bloody thread!!!

And look at the pictures!

:lol:

But yes, Chris has come up with another great read. Ali's greatness more than power got him ko's that bigger hitters sometimes didn't find for sure. Holmes is another good example, he's stopped a lot of guys that had never been stopped before.

[fists of fury]

One should remember that he had trouble with his hands during the 70's, which made him pull his punches at times. His KO ratio was lower after the exile.


It would make for interesting reading regardless.


That's a convenient cliché isn't it? "Undoubtly", even though there isn't any evidence to support, but some evidence to the contrary.


No cliche. That fight stank to the rafters. You don't need evidence to connect the dots in this case.

[fists of fury]

edit.

[Russell]

Good stuff and great points, Chris.

[ChrisPontius]

ps. I haven't read the context of thread by the way, too long for work and with big pics on it. It's obviously good if it's Chris P, but if I'm missing the point anywhere then apologies.

I'll read it in morning. :good

Thanks.

I agree that Ali did not have big puncher power at all. Which is what made the observation more interesting.


p.s. i added those big pics to make it MORE readable. :lol::patsch


I think some people here are confusing the points CP is trying to make. Nobody is saying (or should be saying) that Ali was a better hitter than Tyson. Quite simply, he wasn't. Tyson hit harder, much harder.


:good

[zadfrak]

Ali was the better finisher of the 2. He was an all time great at it & when a guy was busted up or badly wobbled by Ali, the fight didn't go on much longer. Tyson could hurt guys but sometimes they'd go the distance or something, but he didn't always finish opponents immediately > they got hurt.

[Muchmoore]

Ali was the better finisher of the 2. He was an all time great at it & when a guy was busted up or badly wobbled by Ali, the fight didn't go on much longer. Tyson could hurt guys but sometimes they'd go the distance or something, but he didn't always finish opponents immediately > they got hurt.

Part of that could be due to if Ali had an opponent badly hurt, chances are they were taking a sustained beating and absorbing big shots for quite a while and had nothing left. Ali wasn't a big puncher, so if he hurt an opponent it was usually later in the fight when they had been getting tagged often and were considerably slowed down.

Tysons finishing abilities are second to none, the only one that I think may equal him is Louis.

[Bill Butcher]

Interesting read - I also think that aswell as Ali`s power being underrated, his finishing ability is also underrated & rarely mentioned when discussing his best points.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Re: Punch power and knockouts. In one of the many interviews with Tex Cobb I have, he talks of punching power when asked “Was Shavers the hardest you’ve been hit”, he said he’s been hit as hard by Mercado, even Dokes and one or two others. What he said was Shavers was the hardest puncher because “Every punch hurt and was loaded with dynamite”. I think that’s the difference between power and knockouts in general (the two usually go hand-in-hand of course) but certain fighters hurt with every blow they throw- Shavers, Tyson, Foreman for instance but any top fighter can throw a Renaldo Snipes on Peanut Head once in their career.

[JohnThomas1]

Re: Punch power and knockouts. In one of the many interviews with Tex Cobb I have, he talks of punching power when asked “Was Shavers the hardest you’ve been hit”, he said he’s been hit as hard by Mercado, even Dokes and one or two others. What he said was Shavers was the hardest puncher because “Every punch hurt and was loaded with dynamite”. I think that’s the difference between power and knockouts in general (the two usualy go hand-in-hand of course)

I've got that interview somewhere. Remember it well. Cobb was such a brilliant interview, every time. What you see is what you get, and then some. One of the most durable fighters in history, for a period of years.

[zadfrak]

How are Tyson's finishing skills second to none? He's just good, but not in the same category as the great finishers like other heavies Foreman/Ali//Louis/etc. He's not as good of finisher as a Lewis or Holmes either, come to think of it.

Tyson couldn't get Ruddock out of there and the guy had a broken jaw & that's a zero defense opponent w/ mediocre stamina and wide open for counters. Tyson didn't finish 42-1 underdog Douglas > having him on the deck & Douglas was ko'd by other fighters before and after that fight. He had Williams badly hurt early and couldn't finish the show. McBride was all busted up and the ref that wasn't giving Tyson warnings for illegal activities would've stopped that bout if those cuts get just a little worse. Those guys all managed to slip thru the cracks and finishers don't let guys slip thru the cracks.

When a guy was busted up against Ali it was all over. And as soon as he got a guy ready to go, they went. Once fighters reach the top 10, it's finishing skills that count > punching power anyway because the elite competition have some survival skills & have tools.

[Muchmoore]

How are Tyson's finishing skills second to none? He's just good, but not in the same category as the great finishers like other heavies Foreman/Ali//Louis/etc. He's not as good of finisher as a Lewis or Holmes either, come to think of it.

Tyson couldn't get Ruddock out of there and the guy had a broken jaw & that's a zero defense opponent w/ mediocre stamina and wide open for counters. Tyson didn't finish 42-1 underdog Douglas > having him on the deck & Douglas was ko'd by other fighters before and after that fight. He had Williams badly hurt early and couldn't finish the show. McBride was all busted up and the ref that wasn't giving Tyson warnings for illegal activities would've stopped that bout if those cuts get just a little worse.

Faulting Tyson for not finishing off Williams and McBride is like faulting Ali for not taking out Holmes and Berbick :lol:

And Ruddocks recuperative abilities and heart made him a VERY hard fighter to take out.

[zadfrak]

Ali didn't have Larry Holmes on the deck and ready to go. And he sure didn't have Berbick with bad cuts in there. If he did, he certainly knew what to do and how to go about getting his arm raised in victory. And those 2 young heavies in their prime as an opponent is a whole different ballgame than trying to stop a Mcbride.
What I'm saying---and you disagree with--is that great finishers get opponents out of there when that window of opportunity presents itself, regardless of the circumstances.

[prime]

Ali was dangerous because of his pinpoint timing. A well-placed punch can always change the game in a second. He thus cut up Cooper for a TKO, though hardly actually rocking him with concussive power, and, dubious circumstances notwithstanding, clearly stopped Liston in his tracks with a single accurate shot.

Tyson was dangerous because twin, whizzing wrecking balls usually are.

So, yes, different ways to the same end.

Now, I think it's important to consider that Tyson's opponents were bigger and heavier, and at least a couple were there to survive to the final bell, while Clay/Ali's foes, in chasing him, were quite open to a swift counter or sneaky lead.

[radianttwilight]

Tyson couldn't get Ruddock out of there and the guy had a broken jaw & that's a zero defense opponent w/ mediocre stamina and wide open for counters. Tyson didn't finish 42-1 underdog Douglas > having him on the deck & Douglas was ko'd by other fighters before and after that fight. He had Williams badly hurt early and couldn't finish the show. McBride was all busted up and the ref that wasn't giving Tyson warnings for illegal activities would've stopped that bout if those cuts get just a little worse. Those guys all managed to slip thru the cracks and finishers don't let guys slip thru the cracks.



Ruddock II was a post-prime Tyson facing a big, durable opponent. Keep in mind the he DID stop Ruddock the first time around, albeit by TKO.

Have you even seen Tyson-Douglas? There are too many points to make here, among them that Tyson was horribly undertrained/underprepared, had a bunch of idiots in his corner, had taken a terrible beating PRIOR to knocking Douglas down, and that the KD occurred towards the end of the round anyways.

Tyson did KO Williams. In the first round. Or are you talking about Danny Williams, a fight that came fifteen years later, when Tyson was something like 38?

As an above poster said, Tyson-Williams/McBride have about as much relevance as Ali-Holmes/Berbick.

[zadfrak]

Just how many other top 10 heavyweights did Douglas ever knock down? Not out, just knocked down? And the guy had already been stopped late in a fight.
If the opponent is unfocused or untrained or lousy corner, etc. are examples of a weakness in his game. That's not a free pass, just a weakness in their game and always a consideration.

And Ruddock was always beatable. He's slow and wide open for counters. And throws 20 punches a round & even telegraphs those. If he has a broken jaw as well, I sure don't think a Marciano or Louis or Ali or Foreman have 1 iota of trouble getting the guy out of there. They were the finishers.