Zaire Ali

[Loewe]

How beatable was he then? Who do you think would beat that version of Ali.

[Vantage_West]

i think he was prett beatable h ejust faced a perfect foil in foreman.

in reality Ali's seemingly old frailler body was prolly a reason george swung him self out...im not pulling out the belif that ali was getting beaten up for th ewhole fight. it was clear george had one plan only and it didnt include the scorecards.
tho it was clear he did have the stunning handspeed and still some of that movement.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ken Norton. But he lose a split-decision.

[Bill Butcher]

Very few HWTs in history would beat Ali on this night & anyone that did would have to be at their peak.

[The Wanderer]

Ditto what Bill said. A lot of people are obsessed with the idea that Ali only had the rope-a-dope left at this point, despite the fact that he took care of Frazier by dancing around the ring earlier in that same year. Ali just chose to employ the rope-a-dope rather than try another tactic, (most likely because of the heat and humidity in the ring) and he only did that after attacking Foreman pretty hard in the first round.

He was still on form, fighting with a good mix of physical ability and ring craftiness. Whoever was going to beat him that night would have to be on their game.

[McGrain]

Gotta believe that Rocky Marciano would retire him.

[Longhhorn71]

Foreman made 2 mistakes...allowing the fight to happen in Zaire when he could have chosen Houston, and going all-out with no thought of pacing himself.

The only heavies that might have beaten Ali in Zaire are those that can't get intimidated under any circumstances.....Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Tyson at his best, & Larry Holmes.

[JohnThomas1]

Peak Holmes would be a tough match for that version of Ali, very tough.

[GazOC]

Gotta believe that Rocky Marciano would retire him.
Any version of Ali from 1965 to 1975, bar the "retirement" years, beats a prime Marciano IMHO.

[Loewe]

Foreman made 2 mistakes...allowing the fight to happen in Zaire when he could have chosen Houston, and going all-out with no thought of pacing himself.

The only heavies that might have beaten Ali in Zaire are those that can't get intimidated under any circumstances.....Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Tyson at his best, & Larry Holmes.

Tyson would be intimidated by Ali. Tyson nowhere was mentally anywhere near the other mentioned guys. Ali would get into his head and beat him before they even entered the ring.

I think Ali was very beatable at this time for other atgs. It was one of his greatest wins but not one of his greatest performances imo. Would it have been a peak version of quite a few atgs instead of Foreman Ali would have lost.

[Bokaj]

I think people get too hung up on his rope-a-dope tactics in this particular fight. Those tactics were due to the special conditions that night, but this was essentially the same Ali as in the rematches with Norton and Frazier. A year later he would beat a version of Frazier who in my opinion only was very marginally removed from his absolutely best.

[PowerPuncher]

Not many, this was a good version of Ali, with near the best ring smarts, well trained because he was facing Foreman, still the blistering hand speed. ALi went downhill after this fight however

I'd say no pre-Ali fighter beats this version, Marciano would be too slow and open, Louis too predictable although may have had the best shot, Johnson not quite as good, Dempsey too open to counters......

[My dinner with Conteh]

Peak Holmes would be a tough match for that version of Ali, very tough.


Holmes is a tough match for any version of Ali, I'ms ure you'll agree mate. Peak Peanut Head beat the Zaire one- quite convincingly too.




Bit of trivia: 'Peanut Head' nickname invention of Earnie Shavers by the way.

[PowerPuncher]

Holmes is a tough match for any version of Ali, I'ms ure you'll agree mate. Peak Peanut Head beat the Zaire one- quite convincingly too. .

Which elite heavies did Holmes have an easy time with though?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Which elite heavies did Holmes have an easy time with though?


He had an easier time with Norton than Ali did.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes is a tough match for any version of Ali, I'ms ure you'll agree mate. Peak Peanut Head beat the Zaire one- quite convincingly too.




Bit of trivia: 'Peanut Head' nickname invention of Earnie Shavers by the way.

Yeah, you'd want peak Ali in there for sure.

So Shavers invented that? Too cool hahaha

[Bokaj]

He had an easier time with Norton than Ali did.

I think he had an equally to tough time that Ali had with a better version of Norton in their rematch.

[My dinner with Conteh]

No he didn't. Norton deserveded the nod vs Ali (in most eyes), Holmes won by at least a couple of rounds (again in most eyes).

[Maxmomer]

Gotta believe that Rocky Marciano would retire him.

Retire him?

[PowerPuncher]

No he didn't. Norton deserveded the nod vs Ali (in most eyes), Holmes won by at least a couple of rounds (again in most eyes).

Well what about the '73 second fight? A better version of Norton soundly beat. The first fight Ali was unprepared and had his jaw broken in the 2nd, the rubber match he was pretty much done.

[Bokaj]

No he didn't. Norton deserveded the nod vs Ali (in most eyes), Holmes won by at least a couple of rounds (again in most eyes).

I'm talking about Ali-Norton II not III. Most people (Norton included) believe Ali rightfully won that one.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano has a great chance in beating Zaire Ali. Marciano wont gas out like Foreman did. Still be a great fight, but I think Marciano gets a UD with his swarmer attack. Marciano wont be counter like Ali did either, Archie Moore try to pull the same trick, and Archie could not counter Marciano off the ropes like Ali did. Moore called it useing the ropes or fighting off the ropes before Ali named it the Rope of Dope.

Dempsey perhaps, Louis could pull it off also. Fraizer from 1971 could do it imo.
The reason Foreman lost that fight was because he didnt pace himself. Try to win by taking Ali's head off, and was fighting foolisly. Foreman relly had no plan out side of swining until Ali took the ten count.

[PowerPuncher]

Marciano has a great chance in beating Zaire Ali. Marciano wont gas out like Foreman did. Still be a great fight, but I think Marciano gets a UD with his swarmer attack. Marciano wont be counter like Ali did either, Archie Moore try to pull the same trick, and Archie could not counter Marciano off the ropes like Ali did. Moore called it useing the ropes or fighting off the ropes before Ali named it the Rope of Dope.

Dempsey perhaps, Louis could pull it off also. Fraizer from 1971 could do it imo.
The reason Foreman lost that fight was because he didnt pace himself. Try to win by taking Ali's head off, and was fighting foolisly. Foreman relly had no plan out side of swining until Ali took the ten count.

Laughable, Foreman was getting countered silly the whole fight and was in front, if you can't see that

Ali doesnt need to fight off the ropes or look for counters against Marciano, Marciano isnt as strong as Foreman or ALi and Ali has a 13 inch reach advantage and peppers Marciano as he walks forward.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano has been called one of the strongest fighthers to ever held the heavyweight title. I belive he is about as strong as Ali. I seen footage of Marciano chucking bolders off a hill. Pretty amazing to watch imo.
I think your over rated Ali's 13 inch. No one in 49 fights was able to keep Marciano off of them. I pretty sure all of them had a longer reach than Marciano. Marciano would duck, weave, or slip the jab to get in. I dont see Ali keeping Marciano off of him with his reach.

[Loewe]

Well, I think a prime Marciano has a good chance against a prime Ali, so I think a prime Marciano will beat this version.

[prime]

Not very beatable. He was sublimely inspired to produce the miracle "his people", the Zaireans, were expecting. And he still had the tools to work with: he was tough, fast, powerful, and could have danced with a better-quality canvas. This version of Ali could very well have found the proverbial "some way to win" against any foe. His legs were there as can be seen in his previous fight against Frazier.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Well what about the '73 second fight? A better version of Norton soundly beat. The first fight Ali was unprepared and had his jaw broken in the 2nd, the rubber match he was pretty much done.


Better version of Norton? What is this based on?

"Soundly beat" what, by a round. :huh

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'm talking about Ali-Norton II not III. Most people (Norton included) believe Ali rightfully won that one.


Oh, ok, apologies for that one. But Norton still hadn't much experience by 1973 and had hardly any decent wins under his belt (apart from Ali). In all likelihood, he had greater desire for the rubber match (with the title and revenge on the agenda).