View Full Version : How long can Fedor be the best if he isn't fighting the best?
Hermit
09-14-2008, 03:55 PM
Just something I've been wondering lately. I mean in actuality AND perception? Is this part of the UFC stratagy to disparage Fedor? If Randy loses, does this make the fight between the two more likely? I can understand the UFC's point in the contract they proposed. He would be with them as long as he won. They couldn't NOT have the champ under contract could they? I wish this part was more like boxing. One contract at a time. At least the ABC's don't have direct contracts with the fighters.
Polymath
09-14-2008, 03:57 PM
Just beat 2-time UFC CHamp Sylvia, pencilled to fight Bartnett or AA.
Who are you thinking of when you say he isnt fighting the best?
Hermit
09-14-2008, 04:25 PM
Just beat 2-time UFC CHamp Sylvia, pencilled to fight Bartnett or AA.
Who are you thinking of when you say he isnt fighting the best?
The point is, the UFC will freeze him out. Unless the competitiors ramp up he will have trouble getting good fights. Will fighting FORMER UFC champs count? I'll admit I lost touch with MMA a bit after Pride.
ufoalf
09-14-2008, 04:27 PM
The point is, the UFC will freeze him out. Unless the competitiors ramp up he will have trouble getting good fights. Will fighting FORMER UFC champs count? I'll admit I lost touch with MMA a bit after Pride.
Well as long as old Pride Champs are UFC champs I don't see why it won't count.
Hermit
09-14-2008, 04:34 PM
Well as long as old Pride Champs are UFC champs I don't see why it won't count.
He won't be figthing the current champs. Or probably even the top contenders the way things are at the moment. The UFC will continue to lock those guys up under the contracts that Fedor wouldn't/couldn't sign. He will get the 'former' champs. My question is how long can this go on before he suffers from it? I hope the competition gets serious and breaks the strangle hold the UFC currently enjoys.
It doesn't matter if he's not fighting the current champs, there is alot of great fights for him outside the UFC right now anyhow. AA and Barnett are a couple of great fights anyhow.
Hermit
09-14-2008, 06:00 PM
So, what I am hearing so far is that I don't have to worry about the UFC monopoly?
Well Sylvia, AA, Fedor, and Barnett are all signed with Affliction. That's 4 of the top 5 HWs in my opinion.
Polymath
09-14-2008, 07:02 PM
So, what I am hearing so far is that I don't have to worry about the UFC monopoly?
No.
But I do think you might be working under the mistaken impression all the best heaveyweights other than Fedor are contracted by the UFC.
rekcutnevets
09-14-2008, 07:15 PM
Nog has already been bested by Fedor. If he manages to maintain his status as UFC champion, Fedor is automatically better. If Randy defeats Lesnar and Nog, some doubts will remain. If Brock beats Couture, Nog, and Mir; then the UFC will seem to have the real champ with the hype that will follow those impressive wins.
scurlaruntings
09-14-2008, 07:32 PM
The UFC doesnt have the best heavies in the world. They never have. The reality is the best heavies arent in the UFC. There elsewhere. I couldnt care less who wins there heavyweight tourny as neither Nog Randy and certainly NOT Lesnar are the best heavweights in the world.
sugarngold
09-14-2008, 08:54 PM
The UFC doesnt have the best heavies in the world. They never have. The reality is the best heavies arent in the UFC. There elsewhere. I couldnt care less who wins there heavyweight tourny as neither Nog Randy and certainly NOT Lesnar are the best heavweights in the world.
Yeah - but Noguiera and Randy Couture might be the second best heavyweights in the world. As noted above - if Couture makes it through Lesnar AND Noguiera - it knocks all the luster off Fedor's aura.
I still have to see it to believe it - because I don't think Randy will beat Nogueira.
ufoalf
09-14-2008, 09:19 PM
Yeah - but Noguiera and Randy Couture might be the second best heavyweights in the world. As noted above - if Couture makes it through Lesnar AND Noguiera - it knocks all the luster off Fedor's aura.
lol, no it doesn't...
sugarngold
09-14-2008, 09:43 PM
lol, no it doesn't...
yes it does. fedor's claim to the top were his dominating performances over the other top heavies which included Crocop and nogueira. Crocop got crushed in the UFC - while Nogueira is the interim champ. If Noguiera loses in the UFC - then Fedor's two biggest wins become less significant. That's how it works. These fighters don't suddenly become irrelevant because they are in the UFC. I've been watching MMA since the inception of UFC and Pride. Try that no it doesn't shit with newbies.
Tito knows what he speaks of. lol
yes it does. fedor's claim to the top were his dominating performances over the other top heavies which included Crocop and nogueira. Crocop got crushed in the UFC - while Nogueira is the interim champ. If Noguiera loses in the UFC - then Fedor's two biggest wins become less significant. That's how it works. These fighters don't suddenly become irrelevant because they are in the UFC. I've been watching MMA since the inception of UFC and Pride. Try that no it doesn't shit with newbies.
Tito knows what he speaks of. lol
Well that doesn't take away from Fedor's credit, imo. He destroyed Nog and CC in their primes. We all know Nog isn't the same fighter, even I have to admit that. And look what Fedor did to Sylvia. He demolished him in under a minute. It took Randy 5 rounds to beat Timmy.
sugarngold
09-14-2008, 09:51 PM
Well that doesn't take away from Fedor's credit, imo. He destroyed Nog and CC in their primes. We all know Nog isn't the same fighter, even I have to admit that. And look what Fedor did to Sylvia. He demolished him in under a minute. It took Randy 5 rounds to beat Timmy.
Styles make fights. Fedor and Sylvia both defeated Tim Sylvia. Fedor's one minute destruction was more impressive - however there might be some that consider Couture's victory over Sylvia - at 40-something years of age - to be the more impressive accomplishment.
ufoalf
09-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Styles make fights. Fedor and Sylvia both defeated Tim Sylvia. Fedor's one minute destruction was more impressive - however there might be some that consider Couture's victory over Sylvia - at 40-something years of age - to be the more impressive accomplishment.
Now you're rationalizing.
sugarngold
09-14-2008, 09:58 PM
Well that doesn't take away from Fedor's credit, imo. He destroyed Nog and CC in their primes. We all know Nog isn't the same fighter, even I have to admit that. And look what Fedor did to Sylvia. He demolished him in under a minute. It took Randy 5 rounds to beat Timmy.
How does one determine a fighter's prime anyway? Nogueira's only losses in Pride were to Fedor and then Barnett. It's not like he's been losing to every ham and egger to come along.
Crocop entered the UFC as the most feared striker on the planet. If he was shot - then in the words of Antonio Tarver - the UFC shot him.
Styles make fights. Fedor and Sylvia both defeated Tim Sylvia. Fedor's one minute destruction was more impressive - however there might be some that consider Couture's victory over Sylvia - at 40-something years of age - to be the more impressive accomplishment.
Well there's no question that styles make fights. But you can't discredit Fedor's accomplishments if Randy beats Nog and Lesnar. You just can't.
Crocop entered the UFC as the most feared striker on the planet. If he was shot - then in the words of Antonio Tarver - the UFC shot him.
Well the UFC labeled CC to be the most feared striker on the planet. Mirko's stand-up is awesome, don't get me wrong. But hardcore MMA fans know that wasn't the case.
Rico Spadafora
09-14-2008, 10:37 PM
He just beat a top 10 Heavyweight and former 2 time UFC Heavyweight Champion in 36 seconds. :patsch
Polymath
09-14-2008, 11:58 PM
Well the UFC labeled CC to be the most feared striker on the planet. Mirko's stand-up is awesome, don't get me wrong. But hardcore MMA fans know that wasn't the case.
Er, it certainly was...
Beebs
09-15-2008, 12:31 AM
There are at least 3-4 good fights out there right now, the question will be if Fedor takes them reguarly or takes 3-4 lower level fights in between the good fights.
sugarngold
09-15-2008, 12:54 AM
Well there's no question that styles make fights. But you can't discredit Fedor's accomplishments if Randy beats Nog and Lesnar. You just can't.
That's not what I'm saying. It means that there are other legitimate top heavyweights that Fedor should be fighting. If Randy beat the man who beat the man (Crocop) and goes on to beat Fedor's other most notable opponent - Nogueria - then there is no question that the Couture and Fedor need to fight to determine the best fighter on the planet.
None of this matters until the UFC mini-tourney is complete.
sugarngold
09-15-2008, 12:55 AM
He just beat a top 10 Heavyweight and former 2 time UFC Heavyweight Champion in 36 seconds. :patsch
The same one Couture already beat one year ago - in his prime if you will.
sugarngold
09-15-2008, 01:00 AM
I'm not trying to put Couture over as the top heavyweight in Fedor's place. There just seems to be an inordinate amount of Pride bias on this forum and it falls to guys like me to swing the pendulum the other way.
That's not what I'm saying. It means that there are other legitimate top heavyweights that Fedor should be fighting. If Randy beat the man who beat the man (Crocop) and goes on to beat Fedor's other most notable opponent - Nogueria - then there is no question that the Couture and Fedor need to fight to determine the best fighter on the planet.
None of this matters until the UFC mini-tourney is complete.
Most MMA fans agree that Couture and Fedor should fight. But I'm sure Fedor will fight either Barnett or AA before the UFC mini-tourney is complete. So there's still a lot to be determined before we can talk about a potential Fedor/Randy battle.
LONE WOLF
09-15-2008, 05:03 PM
He is fighting the best. UFC does not have anyone except for maybe Randy who Fedor should fight. He beat Nog. Werdum is just another version of Nog and he lost to AA. Lesnar is a joke.
Hermit
09-15-2008, 05:08 PM
There just seems to be an inordinate amount of Pride bias on this forum
You say that like it is a BAD thing. :lol:
scurlaruntings
09-15-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm not trying to put Couture over as the top heavyweight in Fedor's place. There just seems to be an inordinate amount of Pride bias on this forum and it falls to guys like me to swing the pendulum the other way.What do you expect? It was the greatest show on earth! The best presentation, stacked cards, respectful fans, great entertainment, and emphasis on GREAT entertainment what more could you expect? The diffrence between the UFC and PRIDE is like a sumptous well presented dinner and a side of beef with a beer.
sugarngold
09-15-2008, 06:21 PM
What do you expect? It was the greatest show on earth! The best presentation, stacked cards, respectful fans, great entertainment, and emphasis on GREAT entertainment what more could you expect?
I can't argue with that. They were the best MMA shows ever. I miss Pride as well.
yes it does. fedor's claim to the top were his dominating performances over the other top heavies which included Crocop and nogueira. Crocop got crushed in the UFC - while Nogueira is the interim champ. If Noguiera loses in the UFC - then Fedor's two biggest wins become less significant. That's how it works.
So if Nog loses then Fedor isn't as good as people think? What happens if Nog wins his next 10 fights and then gets beat by some kid we don't even know right now? Does that make that kid better then Fedor, because he was "beat in the UFC"?
These fighters don't suddenly become irrelevant because they are in the UFC.
But ex-Pride fighters ARE because they AREN'T in the UFC?
sugarngold
09-16-2008, 03:37 AM
You guys are arguing with yourselves at this point. . .
ufoalf
09-16-2008, 01:29 PM
I think I visit these forums too much. I had a dream that Fedor lost to John Fitch by UD :lol:
rekcutnevets
09-16-2008, 02:12 PM
I have been looking at some of this back and forth and I am having trouble seeing what is so hard to understand.
Fedor is the best heavyweight in the world. His 28-1 record is impressive, and wins over Crocop and Nogueira solidify that status. Nogueira being a champion of sorts in the UFC just adds to how good Fedor's win over him was.
The UFC has shown that it's fighters are still on a good level with two defeats of the man many were claiming to be it's uncrowned champion upon his contract being signed, Crocop. If Couture goes on to defeat Nogueira he won't be taking away any of Fedor's credit away. He will establish his own credit with a win over Fedor's highest rated opponent. Couture dominated Sylvia as well as beating the man that gave Crocop his first loss in the UFC. If he is able to defeat Lesnar, though Brock is still new, it will add even more credibility. Heath Herring defeated the other person to defeat Crocop before being dominated by Lesnar. A win over Lesnar would be significant. If these events unfold this way, I would still consider Fedor at the top. Randy would be beginning to make an argument at this point though. I don't see how it would be unfair to see things that way, if events unfold the way they were written above.
I really don't think Couture will defeat Nogueira, but it is a possibility. I'm not so sure he is going to take Lesnar either, but it would be very unfair to write him off before giving him the chance.
If Nog goes on to defeat everyone in the upcoming tournament of sorts for the title, it will further Fedor's legacy.
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