ESB Essay Competition: Were old-timers more motivated than modern-day boxers?

[Decebal]

"Were old-timers more motivated than modern-day boxers?"

I propose the first ten entries are judged by a poll, which I will set up after we get the first ten entries or after the deadline has passed, whichever comes sooner.

Deadline is the 6th of August 17:00 GMT.

The word limit for this essay is 250.

The Prize?

You get to use the following as an avatar, forever!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[cross_trainer]

I think we should retain the 250 word limit, actually. It brought up a lot of very well stated, succinct points with a minimum of flowery verbiage.

[Amsterdam]

Yes, because any bum off the street with some raw toughness, like Tony Galento, could compete and make a good living.:D

[Decebal]

I think we should retain the 250 word limit, actually. It brought up a lot of very well stated, succinct points with a minimum of flowery verbiage.

Allright! Done! I thought it put some people off. I'm ALL in favour!:yep

[Decebal]

Yes, because any bum off the street with some raw toughness, like Tony Galento, could compete and make a good living.:D

Save your witty, insightfull thoughts for the essay, Amsterdam! :lol:

Otherwise people are just going to nick them gems... :good

[ChrisPontius]

Since i was robbed of the decision last time, i will go for a rematch:

Were old-timers more motivated than their modern coutnerparts?


Contrary to popular believe, physical appearance means absolutely nothing in boxing. A wimpy bald looking guy like Fitzsimmons has more toughness than a bear like Liston or Golota could ever dream about.


Through the last century, boxing has changed somewhat: larger gloves, less rounds, neutral corner rule, the invention of the mouthpiece, etc.
But i don't think that those factors contributed much to change in toughness.

Toughness, in my opinion, is determined mostly by society's circumstances. Luxery. Things we take for granted were not there around the beginning of the 20th century. Jack Dempsey had to fight on an empty stomach and Jack Johnson did not have a luxerious hotel to stay at before fights.

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Jack Johnson having attained a luxery that every adolescent can attain today


The fact that society was a lot harder made for tougher people in general, with a higher threshold for complaining and quitting compared to later generations. I believe people in general were a lot tougher around 1900 than they were around 1980.

Does this mean that fighters from the 80's and after were pansies and quitters? Not at all. The top fighters are still willing to go through hell to get that precious win. But this is by definition true; the quitters won't reach the top. Boxers are still the tougher elements of society. So what it really means is that a tough society will produce a larger talent pool of potential boxers.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
All toughness in the world couldn't save Joe Frazier from an early knockout loss at the hands of George Foreman

To conclude, i don't believe that the old-time top fighters were more motivated than today's top fighters. But i do believe that people in general were tougher and this made the sport more competitive and talent-rich.

[Jack Dempsey]

You get to win the Rugby World Cup!!!

[Decebal]

You get to win the Rugby World Cup!!!

It's THAT good!;)

[cross_trainer]

The old-timers' "hunger" has become a cliche. Yeah, we know all about it--they didn't eat, they didn't have great medical care, they ate titanium plates for breakfast, yadda yadda. It's become such a cliche that we tend to overlook it. But unfortunately, it's the truth. Fighters were better motivated back then.

The roll-call of ATG's who were down on their luck is longer than the Corbett-Jackson fight. Walcott. Braddock. Johnson. Sayers. Cribb. Mendoza...and many more who would not fit into the 250 word limit. Running through the history of boxing from Figg to Klitschko is a long thread of misery, and with that misery came motivation. If you want an idea of this today, take a look into the training camps of Thailand, whose champions fight for four-figure paychecks and thrash their Western counterparts. Or, if that's too far afield, observe how relatively poor countries produce the better fighters. A fat, decadent US heavyweight division found this out the hard way in the last few years.




#1 United States ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $9,573.00
#2 Switzerland ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $8,939.00
#3 New Zealand ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $8,495.00
#4 Venezuela ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $7,424.00
#5 Australia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $7,218.00
#6 Canada ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $7,047.00
#7 Sweden ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $6,738.00
#8 Denmark ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $6,683.00
#9 Netherlands ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $5,850.00
#10 Belgium ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $5,346.00

Table 1: World GDP in 1950 per capita





#1 New Zealand ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $4,320.00
#2 Australia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $4,299.00
#3 United States ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $4,096.00
#4 Belgium ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $3,652.00
#5 Netherlands ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $3,533.00
#6 Switzerland ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $3,531.00
#7 Germany ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $3,134.00
#8 Denmark ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $2,902.00
#9 Austria ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $2,901.00
#10 France ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): $2,849.00

Table 2: in 1900




([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Algeria ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $7,600 (2006 est.)
Azerbaijan ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $7,500 (2006 est.)
Belarus ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $8,100 (2006 est.)
Bolivia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $3,100 (2006 est.)
Bosnia and Herzegovina ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $5,600 (2006 est.)
Cambodia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $2,700 (2006 est.)
Colombia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $8,600 (2006 est.)
Cuba ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $4,000 (2006 est.)
Egypt ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $4,200 (2006 est.)
Bulgaria ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) $10,700 (2006 est.)

Table 3: Some Modern Countries



Then remember that "back in the day", every country was a third-world country. Infant mortality rates, medical care, per capita GDP were all at the level of the developing world. Boxing was booming, violent, and the only way out of poverty for many. It was a last chance that begat frenzied motivation, and some of the best fights in history.



Appended:

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[Decebal]

It is often argued that since, in absolute terms, people were generally poorer in the old days, life was more precarious and there was no appropriate economic safety net, boxers would be more motivated to rise up and compete at the highest level than their modern day counterparts.

Thus, it’s fairly argued that the fear of destitution and the lack of alternatives to escape a life of drudgery and pain in poverty would naturally provide a powerful incentive to those able to achieve some form of success to strive much harder to ensure they do so, the absolute difference between succeeding and failing being much greater and more significant than for contemporary boxers.

However, modern boxers are equally determined to succeed, when they can gain much more in absolute as well as in relative terms. There is no evidence that they would be less determined just because the price of failure is smaller. This is because the rewards for success are much greater now.

Whilst fighting for survival is a powerful motivational force, fighting for great fame and fortune, greater than any of their ancient counterparts could have dreamed of, can lead one to be as highly driven. The difference between succeeding and failing is as great as before. In the past, the price of failure was greater; now it is the reward for success. Greed can be as powerful a force as the will to survive. Modern day fighters are thus not less motivated than those who preceded them.

[Decebal]

Let's have some more! Where's the Champ rekcutnevets, to defend his title? Good entries so far, but nothing to blow you away...

[Decebal]

There are plenty of fighters like that today as well, you're not looking at both sides of the fence, your bias is amazing.

ESSAY or STFU!;)

[Decebal]

:-((

[Amsterdam]

There are plenty of fighters like that today as well, you're not looking at both sides of the fence, your bias is amazing.

If everyone was the same, it would be boring...:yep

[Decebal]

If everyone was the same, it would be boring...:yep

Amsterdam!!! The real you is back!:lol:

[Decebal]

:dead

[Amsterdam]

:dead

Calzaghe's motivation is that of supernatural entity, can any old timer make claim to that.:think

I can think of one for certain, that would be Maxie Rosenbloom...

[McGrain]

Calzaghe's motivation is that of supernatural entity, can any old timer make claim to that.:think


You + Jack Daniels = sense to me, but that won't wash in the morning.

[Amsterdam]

You + Jack Daniels = sense to me, but that won't wash in the morning.

Jack Johnson vs. Joe Louis, it'd be a hell of a fight no?:happy

Maxie Rosenbloom was a god.

[Decebal]

Maxie Rosenbloom was a god.

Nah, just a slapper!:D

[Decebal]

You + Jack Daniels = sense to me, but that won't wash in the morning.

Only after plenty of IRN BRU...:good

[McGrain]

Jack Johnson vs. Joe Louis, it'd be a hell of a fight no.

:lol:

Johnson KO Louis 14. Bet the farm on it brother.

[McGrain]

Only after plenty of IRN BRU...:good


To sweet bro.

Water and bananas and ice chips.

[Amsterdam]

Only after plenty of IRN BRU...:good

IRN BRU cut with rum.

BTW McGrain, Louis KO 4 Jack Johnson.:yep

That first day you joined I stated that Louis' era was an evolution from Johnson's, thinking back on it and relating to the recent discussions, it's really hysterical...

[McGrain]

BTW McGrain, Louis KO 4 Jack Johnson.:yep



:D

Tell you, it's anti-gutbrew for me to pick v Louis but I think I have to where Johnson is concerned.

You been picking Foreman. Wrong man (though right for your purposes). Louis KO Foreman 1.

But JOHNSON. That mongoose. All night long bro. Catches and pitches. Just a genuine revel. A lift that lasts nine rounds. A tutoring in smothering.

Under Johnsons rules, no doubt. Under Louis' rules...i hesitate to gamble but i'd be reasonabley confident in my prediction. I bet.

[Amsterdam]

:D

Tell you, it's anti-gutbrew for me to pick v Louis but I think I have to where Johnson is concerned.

You been picking Foreman. Wrong man (though right for your purposes). Louis KO Foreman 1.

But JOHNSON. That mongoose. All night long bro. Catches and pitches. Just a genuine revel. A lift that lasts nine rounds. A tutoring in smothering.

Under Johnsons rules, no doubt. Under Louis' rules...i hesitate to gamble but i'd be reasonabley confident in my prediction. I bet.

No, I'm not wrong, I'm going to check that thread in a bit, rewatch some vid's and come back with more argument and try to keep it fresh without the bias.

Foreman KO 1 Johnson.:yep

[McGrain]

No, I'm not wrong, I'm going to check that thread in a bit, rewatch some vid's and come back with more argument and try to keep it fresh without the bias.

Foreman KO 1 Johnson.:yep


Listyen, and I say this with the sincerety of a mostly drunk man, your bias is an absolute neccesity to your splendour. Keep it up. I find it reassuring.

Foreman may well have KO'd Johnson early, possibly the only guy in my ten to lose early to big Foreman. Big lovely idiot. Get him Foreman get him!

[Decebal]

So what do you reckon, shall we close this thread and move on to the vote? Or will some more write in?

It seems it has become a bike-shed for Amsterdam and McGrain to smoke a noughty ciggy, tell a dirty joke and check out some cardboard talent...

[fists of fury]

Today's fighters are money-hungry prima-donnas by comparison.

Boxing has become an easier sport to participate in over the years. What I mean is that there are no longer fights fought in baking heat without cover, no longer are fights scheduled for 20, 30 or 40 rounds, the gloves are bigger and more padded, and the referees are far, far more compasionate to an ailing fighter, among other things.

If the rules of Johnson's time applied today, how many young men would even dare take up the sport?
What motivated fighters back then? For one thing, there was nothing else going. The NBA, NFL and NHL were not even around back then. Boxing was one of very, very few sports to provide an outlet for men coming from disadvantaged backrounds, especially for blacks.
Many fighters back in the old days were literally starving, and a boxing match provided at least enough for a meal and a bed for the night. Jersey Joe Walcott said that he spent a good portion of his pro career literally half-starved.
No matter how bad the circumstances today, you don't hear of such appalling stories anymore.

Purses back in the day were meagre by comparison too, and that's partly why guys then fought so often. Hell, Ray Robinson defended his title only a month after winning it. Today, a champion rarely fights more than twice a year, and sometimes only once a year.

Maybe it'a just a sign of the times, but people back then were willing to do more for less in all walks of life by comparison with today's standards.

[Decebal]

The quality of competition has just been raised by a good few notches:yep

[Decebal]

Any more entries?

[Decebal]

:-((

[Drew101]

In order to answer this topic, we have to acknowledge a few simple truths. We have to concede the fact that fighters in the past fought more often for less money than they would have made right now, and that the massive amounts of money a top-flight, well-known fighter can make right now ensures that he doesn't have to face the best available competition if he chooses not do do so.

We have to acknowledge those facts...but, that doesn't mean that the answer to this question is automatically going to be "yes".

For, we also must acknowledge a few other truths. We have to acknowledge that there are a great many fighters these days who were born into abject poverty, and are fighting desperately in order to improve their own state of affairs.

We should also note that, while fighters make more money, the cost of living has also skyrocketed, and that means that the chasm that exists between the richest of fighters and the rank-and-file is every bit as large right now as it was at any point in the past.

Kassim Ouma was a child soldier. Edison Miranda was homeless when he first entered a boxing gym, and so, for that matter, were the Peterson brothers. The rules of the game may have changed, but even if they had remained static, it's guarunteed that these individuals, and others like them, would have considered the option of using their fists as a means to escape their conditions.

If you want proof of this, just pop in your copy of the first Corrales-Castillo fight, or the Cotto-Judah fight, or any number of Gatti fights. Something enabled these fighters to continue to throw punches in the face of the severest forms of adversity.

And, that something was hunger.

That hasn't changed at all over the years...and it probably won't be changing at all in the future.

[Decebal]

:good

[JIm Broughton]

Like Marvelous Marvin Hagler once said.."It's hard to get up at five o'clock in the morning to do your roadwork when you're sleeping in silk pajamas". Let's face it, there's more money out there now than there ever was. A champion today can fight once every year or two and still make millions. So can a ranked contender for that matter. When the golfer Gary Player was asked a similar question he said something like "Are you kidding me? In my day you had to play for your supper" Ther's no more "Winner take all" It's now "Still lose and make millions anyway" Get the point?

[Decebal]

short and sweet; well put!:good

[Decebal]

let's have another gem, lads!

[Decebal]

Anyone else think of taking part? Or are we closing it?

[Decebal]

going...going...

[jhar26]

I've noticed that so far everyone's posts have only been about fighters being motivated because to them boxing is a way to get out of poverty or else as a way to get even richer than they already are. But although it doesn't sound like my idea of fun to get punched on the nose or have a medicine ball thrown at your guts, some boxers are in it for "the love of the game." How about those who aren't exclusively motivated by material gain, but are fighting, or continuing to fight for the glory of it all, for their legacy? They may be a rare breed, but I'm sure that guys like Holmes or Holyfield didn't/don't continue fighting because they want(ed) one more Rolls Royce in their garages. In fact, looking at the difference between, say Holmes' and Tyson's last four or five fights, it can be argued that sporting glory can be an even better motivater than money.

[Decebal]

I've noticed that so far everyone's posts have only been about fighters being motivated because to them boxing is a way to get out of poverty or else as a way to get even richer than they already are. But although it doesn't sound like my idea of fun to get punched on the nose or have a medicine ball thrown at your guts, some boxers are in it for "the love of the game." How about those who aren't exclusively motivated by material gain, but are fighting, or continuing to fight for the glory of it all, for their legacy? They may be a rare breed, but I'm sure that guys like Holmes or Holyfield didn't/don't continue fighting because they want(ed) one more Rolls Royce in their garages. In fact, looking at the difference between, say Holmes' and Tyson's last four or five fights, it can be argued that sporting glory can be an even better motivater than money.

I'll take that as an entry, mate! But if you want to expand on it and turn it into more of an essay, you just go for it!:good

[Decebal]

...gone?

[Decebal]

gone! Let's vote!:good

[Decebal]

poll wide open!;)

[Decebal]

voting in this thread is free; it won't cost you a penny of the vcash!

[Amsterdam]

voting in this thread is free; it won't cost you a penny of the vcash!

You've exhausted no vCash.

[Decebal]

we have a tie! and only four votes...:?

[cross_trainer]

we have a tie! and only four votes...:?

:lol:

I guess we're dual champions.

[Decebal]

:lol:

I guess we're dual champions.

:nono draws are not acceptable! As many rounds as necessary until the KO! If the poll closes and it's still a draw, the organiser of the event (moi);) picks the winner! Tough and unfair!:lol:

[cross_trainer]

:nono draws are not acceptable! As many rounds as necessary until the KO! If the poll closes and it's still a draw, the organiser of the event (moi);) picks the winner! Tough and unfair!:lol:


You're becoming the Don King of the Classic section. Mayhaps I'll found Golden Trainer Promotions to give you some competition. :hey

[Decebal]

You're becoming the Don King of the Classic section. Mayhaps I'll found Golden Trainer Promotions to give you some competition. :hey

:scaredas: Sounds like a threat to me! I feel very bannable!

[cross_trainer]

:scaredas: Sounds like a threat to me! I feel very bannable!

We have already begun a small-scale promotion in the MMA section. Soon, we will take over the fight biz!

[Decebal]

We have already begun a small-scale promotion in the MMA section. Soon, we will take over the fight biz!

:lol: ...let's devide the turf out then! I keep the ESB Essay Competition..."popular" as it is:patsch ...and you are king over all else in sight! I'll even make sure you win these contests from time to time;) ...deal?

[cross_trainer]

:lol: ...let's devide the turf out then! I keep the ESB Essay Competition..."popular" as it is:patsch ...and you are king over all else in sight! I'll even make sure you win these contests from time to time;) ...deal?

We'd need to steer clear of the Congressional commissions, though...good thing that this conversation is just between the two of us.

[Decebal]

We'd need to steer clear of the Congressional commissions, though...good thing that this conversation is just between the two of us.

Yeah, but Rummy is very corruptable, so, let them bug us if they want! If he makes a fuss, we'll get him in front of the Un-American Activities Committee on trumped-up charges!

[cross_trainer]

Yeah, but Rummy is very corruptable, so, let them bug us if they want! If he makes a fuss, we'll get him in front of the Un-American Activities Committee on trumped-up charges!

McCarthyism for the win! :good

[Decebal]

McCarthyism for the win! :good

Precisely! As long as it's green, it doesn't matter how you make that dollar!:good

[Decebal]

any more votes? at the moment we have fewer votes than entries...:-(

[cross_trainer]

any more votes? at the moment we have fewer votes than entries...:-(

I'm guessing that all of us who entered pieces don't want to vote for ourselves. 'Twould be rather unsportsmanlike.

[Decebal]

I'm guessing that all of us who entered pieces don't want to vote for ourselves. 'Twould be rather unsportsmanlike.


Well, I would have voted for my piece had I thought it was the best, but I didn't, so I haven't. I expected others would vote too, not just participants...:-( ...and in fact not even all those who entered have voted in what is after all a secret poll.

Shall we end the vote now? Or shall we wait until it expires? Chances are you win anyway!:D

[cross_trainer]

Well, I would have voted for my piece had I thought it was the best, but I didn't, so I haven't. I expected others would vote too, not just participants...:-( ...and in fact not even all those who entered have voted in what is after all a secret poll.

Shall we end the vote now? Or shall we wait until it expires? Chances are you win anyway!:D

Eh, let's wait. We might as well honor the terms.

You'll be happy to know that, thus far, my MMA contest isn't doing much better.

Maybe if both of these pick up, we'll be able to match the winners against one another on a crossover topic.

[Decebal]

Eh, let's wait. We might as well honor the terms.

You'll be happy to know that, thus far, my MMA contest isn't doing much better.

Maybe if both of these pick up, we'll be able to match the winners against one another on a crossover topic.

Chances are it will be cross_trainer v. cross_trainer. I am tempted to call that a draw. :p

ooops! Missed something in your post: "happy to know"!!!! "Happy to know"??? Why would I be happy to know that? But frankly, I am not surprised!

[cross_trainer]

Chances are it will be cross_trainer v. cross_trainer. I am tempted to call that a draw. :p

ooops! Missed something in your post: "happy to know"!!!! "Happy to know"??? Why would I be happy to know that? But frankly, I am not surprised!

"Happy to know" because it's a rival promotion. :lol:

[Decebal]

"Happy to know" because it's a rival promotion. :lol:

I am unhappy; I thought we were staging this rivalry for the simple and the credulous, to corner the market from all angles!:yep

[cross_trainer]

I am unhappy; I thought we were staging this rivalry for the simple and the credulous, to corner the market from all angles!:yep

Well, the official line is that you're uproariously happy about your "rival's" failure.

Looks like the fight game is drying up its prospects for both of us, though. In these ill-attended, penny-pinching times, we need to generate more title fights...I recommend an immediate creation of DBO (Decebal Belt Organization) Emeritus, DBO "Super Champion", and DBO "Super Duper Champion" positions.

[Decebal]

Well, the official line is that you're uproariously happy about your "rival's" failure.

You are a wise man, cross_trainer! Do you know any high, non-slip roof tops?

Looks like the fight game is drying up its prospects for both of us, though. In these ill-attended, penny-pinching times, we need to generate more title fights...I recommend an immediate creation of DBO (Decebal Belt Organization) Emeritus, DBO "Super Champion", and DBO "Super Duper Champion" positions. easier done than said in public whilst keeping a straight face!:yep

:)

[Decebal]

:bump

"venefofefnjtncecen"

[Decebal]

:-((

[Decebal]

Decebal's Boxing Promotion$™

in association with

ESB Forum, "Biiig on Boxing!"

would like to thank all competitors who have participated in this contest - part of the


Box! Writing Championship™

Series.


And

THE NEW

Box! Writing Champion™...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

cross "golden_ balls" trainer !




cross_trainer has earned the right to add "BOX! Writing Champion" to his signature/location/user profile and to use the Box! Writing Championship™ Trophy as his avatar forever.


:party :party :party