Zaire Ali v Prime Hollyfield

[McGrain]

What's your pick?

[mr. magoo]

Tough Question and one that will no doubt evoke endless debate.

Anyway, as much as I would like to see a peak Evander prevail against a slipping Ali, I probably have to give the edge to Muhammad. I know that making comparisons by using other fight results is not always the best way to go, but I can't help remembering how a 42 year old Holmes took a peak Holy the distance, and even stole a few rounds from him. This does not necessarily mean that a 1974 Ali would school the real deal, but its not unreasonable to make the assumption that he might have. Muhammad's endurance was still better than most and so was his illusive style that I think may have troubled Holyfield, who struggled with fighters who evaded him rather than go to war at close range...

1974 Ali by a 12 or 15 round decision over a 1990-92 Holy, in what is probably an uneventful and dull match...

[la-califa]

Good match up. Holyfield would put pressure, but Ali would lay on the ropes & cover up. While every now and then fire off a couple of fast combo's. Simular to the Foreman fight. Holyfield would start to tire and Ali would step it up. Holyfield could be hit and the combinations of Ali would take thier toll about the ninth or tenth. Ali by late round stoppage.

[mr. magoo]

Ali by late round stoppage.

Although I have already picked Ali to take this match, I don't think there's anyway Muhammad is stopping a prime Evander...

[McGrain]

Good match up. Holyfield would put pressure, but Ali would lay on the ropes & cover up. While every now and then fire off a couple of fast combo's. Simular to the Foreman fight. Holyfield would start to tire and Ali would step it up. Holyfield could be hit and the combinations of Ali would take thier toll about the ninth or tenth. Ali by late round stoppage.

The reason this fight is so compelling is because Hollyfield in comparable to Ali as a strategist and general. Check the way he slowed the action down against Lewis, made the rounds muddy and hard to score. Check the great plan, perfectly executed against Tyson. Hollyfield would be no chump to any secret plan, the way Foreman was.

At the very, very least, you would say Evander picking his punches.

[Bokaj]

Good match up. Holyfield would put pressure, but Ali would lay on the ropes & cover up. While every now and then fire off a couple of fast combo's. Simular to the Foreman fight. Holyfield would start to tire and Ali would step it up. Holyfield could be hit and the combinations of Ali would take thier toll about the ninth or tenth. Ali by late round stoppage.

I don't think that Ali would do the rope-a-dope. He never had before Zaire, and there the circumstances and the opponent was perfect for that tactic. But using it against Holyfield under normal conditions would fail.

A well trained and motivated Ali around that time would still dance a lot, and coast for rounds in between. Relying more on holding than standing against the ropes in those rounds.

For me, even this version of Ali is superior to Holyfield in almost every department except punching power and physical strength. The prime version of Holyfield at HW was in the early 90's IMO, and that version was probable quite even with Zaire Ali in terms of power, strength and perhaps also stamina. But Ali beats him when it comes to reach, speed, reflexes and ring generalship. Ali's jab would dominate and that would make it tough for Holyfield. Ali takes a UD in a competitive fight. I just don't see Holyfield having any real edge over him, and he didn't have an awkward style like Norton.

[la-califa]

Although I have already picked Ali to take this match, I don't think there's anyway Muhammad is stopping a prime Evander...Evander has too much Warrior in him. He can be hit. I just think that Ali would land more and more combinations as the fight goes on and Holyfield begins to tire.

[PowerPuncher]

Good match up and HOlyfield is a very tough match up for this version of ALi.

Holyfield has weaknesses with his defense that Ali exploits and Ali would be able to make Evander miss allot. BUT the workrate and combination punching and relentlessness gives the same problems Frazier brought with better boxing skills

This is more a Frazier-Ali matchup than a Foreman-Ali match up and it would be close so its a 15round back and forth war

[ChrisPontius]

Ali has always been somewhat susceptible to the left hook, and Holyfield has a great one. Every time George Foreman commentated on an HBO fight that featured Holyfield, he had to mention, relevant or not, how hurtful Holyfield's left liver hook was. Very durable fighters like Mercer, Tyson and Bowe tasted canvas because of it.

Of course Ali brings plenty to the table as well. The lighter (hitting) Holyfield of 1991 that knocked out Douglas was fast, flexible and had a very high punch output. That version of Holyfield has a good shot at beating '74 Ali; i'd call it about 50/50.

Around 1996, Holyfield was a bit older and threw less punches, but also seemed to hit harder and had better self-control. I like him better against punchers, but against a pure boxer like Ali, i'd go with one of his lighter incarnations.

[dpw417]

I think this is a tremendous fight because Holy would force a fast pace, and Ali would comply...Holy will be busier, and Ali more accurate.

[McGrain]

Ali has always been somewhat susceptible to the left hook, and Holyfield has a great one. Every time George Foreman commentated on an HBO fight that featured Holyfield, he had to mention, relevant or not, how hurtful Holyfield's left liver hook was. Very durable fighters like Mercer, Tyson and Bowe tasted canvas because of it.

Of course Ali brings plenty to the table as well. The lighter (hitting) Holyfield of 1991 that knocked out Douglas was fast, flexible and had a very high punch output. That version of Holyfield has a good shot at beating '74 Ali; i'd call it about 50/50.

Around 1996, Holyfield was a bit older and threw less punches, but also seemed to hit harder and had better self-control. I like him better against punchers, but against a pure boxer like Ali, i'd go with one of his lighter incarnations.

Good post.

[he grant]

Ali would decision him fairly easily ...

[slicksouthpaw16]

I like Evander by a close decision against the version of Ali and Ali by close decision in his prime. Just look at the Norton fight, and the fact that Evander is a better jabber than Norton, is faster and has a much better chin. Ali needed space to work his distance and jab, and i see Holyfield with responding with his own jabs and bringing educated volume punching and effective body work. He also had these same kinds of problems with Doug Jones, who kept him off balance and disrupted his footwork for most of the fight and was confusing him by having the ability to block punches while coming forward and Evander has all of these tools and much more. Volume punching is the key to movers.

[Bokaj]

I like Evander by a close decision against any version of Ali. Just look at the Norton fight, and the fact that Evander is a better jabber than Norton, is faster and has a much better chin. Ali needed space to work his distance and jab, and i see Holyfield with responding with his own jabs and bringing educated volume punching and effective body work. He also had these same kinds of problems with Doug Jones, who kept him off balance and disrupted his footwork for most of the fight and was confusing him by having the ability to block punches while coming forward and Evander has all of these tools and much more. Volume punching is the key to movers.

I don't think Holyfield's jab was better than Norton's and I don't think chin will play a big part. Norton had good enough chin to soak up Ali's punches and so would Holyfield, unless he'd gas out.

It's not like Ali had trouble with every good boxer he faced, just look how he handled Ellis. But Norton had an awkward style that was very hard to figure out if you just didn't blast him out there. Young and Holmes could testify to this. Holyfield's style was orthodox and I don't think it would cause Ali that much problems as such. His skill, workrate, ringsmartness and guts would of course make this a tough fight for Ali, though. But he must stick to the gameplan to have a good chance. He could go a bit off the rails at times...

The thing is, what do Holyfield do if Ali wins the battle of the jabs, as I think he would? It would probably be the first time in Holyfield's career that he faces a quicker jab with a longer reach. I think that's the decider.

[slicksouthpaw16]

I don't think Holyfield's jab was better than Norton's and I don't think chin will play a big part. Norton had good enough chin to soak up Ali's punches and so would Holyfield, unless he'd gas out.

It's not like Ali had trouble with every good boxer he faced, just look how he handled Ellis. But Norton had an awkward style that was very hard to figure out if you just didn't blast him out there. Young and Holmes could testify to this. Holyfield's style was orthodox and I don't think it would cause Ali that much problems as such. His skill, workrate, ringsmartness and guts would of course make this a tough fight for Ali, though. But he must stick to the gameplan to have a good chance. He could go a bit off the rails at times...

I agree that the chin factor wouldn't come into play, although personally i feel that Evander had the better jab, it came off of everything that he did and worked effectively against every boxer/mover that he faced. You mentioned that Norton had an awkward style, so how would we classify Holfyields? Its rare to see a pressure fighter that is up on his toes, could box and bang and is very good at either one. He also shown in many fights the ability cut off the ring effectively. The Ali that fought Foreman didn't have as good of footspeed that he once had and mainly just did a few things to win the rounds, he would be out worked and especially by the young energetic Holyfield that fought Bert Cooper.


The thing is, what do Holyfield do if Ali wins the battle of the jabs, as I think he would? It would probably be the first time in Holyfield's career that he faces a quicker jab with a longer reach. I think that's the decider.
The thing with a volume puncher is that even if they miss punches, they keep throwing and Evander was skillful at that.

:EDIT: I made a mistake in my first post in this thread, i meant to say that Ali would win a close decision in his prime and the version that fought Foreman would lose a close decision. :)

[Bokaj]

I agree that the chin factor wouldn't come into play, although personally i feel that Evander had the better jab, it came off of everything that he did and worked effectively against every boxer/mover that he faced. You mentioned that Norton had an awkward style, so how would we classify Holfyields? Its rare to see a pressure fighter that is up on his toes, could box and bang and is very good at either one. He also shown in many fights the ability cut off the ring effectively.

I would classify Holyfield as versatile, but still orthodox. He brought many tools to the table, but he wasn't awkward.

The Ali that fought Foreman didn't have as good of footspeed that he once had and mainly just did a few things to win the rounds, he would be out worked and especially by the young energetic Holyfield that fought Bert Cooper.

This is a very commmon misapprehension when it comes to this version fo Ali. People think of him standing against the ropes and taking Foreman's punches, and forget the fast paced fights he had with Frazier shortly before and after. The version of Ali in Manilla wasn't quite as good as the one in Zaire IMO, but that fight still set the record for punches thrown in a HW title fight.

Actually, if I was to give the edge in workrate and stamina to one of them it would be Ali of 1974. Holyfield looked much more tired after 12 rounds with a very slow Big George than Ali did after 12 rounds with Frazier in their second fight.

[ChrisPontius]

This is a very commmon misapprehension when it comes to this version fo Ali. People think of him standing against the ropes and taking Foreman's punches, and forget the fast paced fights he had with Frazier shortly before and after. The version of Ali in Manilla wasn't quite as good as the one in Zaire IMO, but that fight still set the record for punches thrown in a HW title fight.

Actually, if I was to give the edge in workrate and stamina to one of them it would be Ali of 1974. Holyfield looked much more tired after 12 rounds with a very slow Big George than Ali did after 12 rounds with Frazier in their second fight.

This is what i like about Ali. When he knocked out Foreman, he was just getting started and could've gone another hard 7 rounds if he had to, while Foreman was gone.

[fists of fury]

Ali by decision.

An older, slower Holmes made a prime Holyfield look very ordinary when they fought, using similar tactics to Ali's rope-a-dope. Yes Holyfield won, but what if Holmes had been 32, not 42?

I see Ali outhustling Evander, scoring with sharp lead right and jabs, and smothering Evander in close. Evander will be more selective and less wild than was Foreman and I think he'd work the body a lot more, but Ali holds the aces. Evander can only react, and Ali will dictate the tempo and nature of the fight.

I tend to disagree with McGrain regarding Evander as a strategist. He was no Einstein in there. Sure, he could follow a gameplan like a good soldier, but improvise on the fly? Haven't seen any evidence of it.

He had a rock-solid gameplan going into virtually all his fights and he did often follow these to a T, but the thing is in Zaire he'd have a gameplan for Ali moving and jabbing (much like Foreman's camp did) but he'd have too much trouble trying to adapt to Ali's new-found strategy.
He coped with Holmes, but he'd not cope with an Ali who was still very quick in mind and body.

Evander got so frustrated against Holmes he eventually drew an imaginary line on the canvas in the 11th, basically telling Holmes to meet him there. I see the same thing unfolding against Ali, but Ali would go back to the ropes and lure Evander back into that same old pattern.

Ali UD 15.

[Privatejoker]

First off why do people talk about a slightly past his prime Ali had problems with Norton?

Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer who is no Norton.

Riddick Bowe beat Evander 2 out of 3.

Evander was in his prime or close to it fighting Bowe.

And don't talk about Evander like he can out smart Ali.

Look at the first Bowe fight, Holyfield traded with a man who was two stone heavier and lost.

He needed a rematch to put things right and only won because of what Bowe didn't do not because what he did.

[Bokaj]

This is what i like about Ali. When he knocked out Foreman, he was just getting started and could've gone another hard 7 rounds if he had to, while Foreman was gone.

Yes, he was in great shape. He was not what he had been 7 years earlier, but that version was a phenomen. Ali at 32 was still as fast or faster than any HW before or after, only a select few (prime versions of Frazier and Marciano and maybe someone else) had ever had better stamina and probably no one had ever had better durability. In ring generalship, guts and coolness under fire he was unmatched IMO.

He was still a very formidable fighter, not a one trick rope-a-dope pony.

[ChrisPontius]

He was still a very formidable fighter, not a one trick rope-a-dope pony.

I agree; just because he CHOOSE that strategy doesn't mean he'd lay on the ropes if he'd fight a Larry Holmes type of opponent that night. He did what he had to do to get the win against Foreman, but had a whole bunch of tricks up his sleeve that we didn't get to see that night.

[clark]

The Ali that fought Foreman was very fired up and in incredible
shape. If that "fired up" Ali fought Holyfield, Ali wins by TKO.
In fact, Ali probably would have beat any of the ATG fighters on that night.

[Bokaj]

I have a hard time seeing Ali stopping Holyfield. Perhaps, if Holyfield is tired and way behind on the cards in the late rounds and decides to go all out, but only then.

The guy wasn't easy to KO, to say the least.

[clark]

Seeing how a single punch from a bored Ali badly hurt a tough Ron Lyle
the following year, I see a much better shape and motivated Ali
stopping Holyfield. Remember, I said a motivated Ali like in Zaire.

[Bokaj]

Seeing how a single punch from a bored Ali badly hurt a tough Ron Lyle
the following year, I see a much better shape and motivated Ali
stopping Holyfield. Remember, I said a motivated Ali like in Zaire.

Well, who knows. Ali would be far from the hardest puncher Holyfield faced, but probably the most accurate and also the best finisher (except for maybe Tyson).

[Waynegrade]

I like Ali by UD. His speed,jab, legs and chin would be his keys to victory. But I think it would be a good rugged fight, and Holy would have his moments...