Sonny Liston at 28 vs Mike Tyson at 20.

[Shake]

Sonny was not averse to taking a backwards step to create room, but usually came forward, pressing the fight. Two unstoppable forces collide -- who takes it?

[Thread Stealer]

Exactly when was Liston really 28?

1955? 1960?

[Shake]

When he beat Patterson, if I'm not mistaken.

[C. M. Clay II]

Sonny was not averse to taking a backwards step to create room, but usually came forward, pressing the fight. Two unstoppable forces collide -- who takes it?

Whenever a big, strong fight came at tyson, Mike was usually pushed back. My guess is that for Tyson to win he would have to throw good combinations of precision power punches while going backward as he did with Berbick. But the difference is unlike Berbick, Liston would be throwing leather back, preferably in the form of the best left jab in the history of the heavyweight division, and one of the best left hooks of all-time. IMO, sooner or later, Tyson would be eating punches by the mid rounds, because of his lack of height and reach, and would be taken out subsequently.

Sonny Liston TKO 8 Mike Tyson:good

[C. M. Clay II]

Exactly when was Liston really 28?

1955? 1960?

Around 1957.:good

[McGrain]

This one is actually harder than you think on account of Tyson. I can't believe for a moment that Tyson will fight against Liston the way he tended to fight at around that age - not that he was fighting bad fighters, just that he never took on anyone like Liston.

If he does, of course, come out like he did against Marvis Frazier, he will get stopped in one or two. Assuming he comes out more sensibley, more balanced, less aggressive...who knows? Personally, I think the less aggressive Mike fights, the more he would tend to lose instead of overall flow.

Based on these two factors, I pick Liston. I feel there are more ways for him to win.

[mr. magoo]

Difficult to say. As CM already pointed out , Liston had finely polished attributes like no other. What's more, he was not intimidated by anyone he ever fought ( a problem that many Tyson victoms tended to have ). On the other hand, Tyson took punches and overcame the talents of many top rated fighters who bigger, and possibly stronger than Sonny. The Razor Ruddock fights, put Tyson's heart and chin to the test. His power spoke for itself.

It would certainly be interesting.

[robert ungurean]

Liston by KO
Tyson is mentally beat befor he steps into the ring with Sonny.

[McGrain]

Liston by KO
Tyson is mentally beat befor he steps into the ring with Sonny.

There may be something to this. What Tyson pretended to be? Or what he allowed the media to bullying him into pretending to be? That is what Liston actually was.

[anut]

i think tyson would knock liston out in 7 or 8rds......

[Titan1]

Tyson wins by decision if he fights him smart and not slug. Otherwise, Sonny stops him in 4 or 5 rounds.

[McGrain]

Listons jab is devestating against people who didnt move, like cleveland williams. He's going to be fighting the heavyweight with probably the second, if not the best headmovement of all time.

Great point. So we've discovered, for ourselves, without any help from CT or Janitor or anyone, a great intangible for this fight.

Can Liston score on Tyson's head coming in.

Unsure - but I will promise you, Tyson isn't coming "through" any Liston jab. If he gets hit, he loses that exchange, badly.

Because I would favour Liston to hit him with a decent % and don't see Mike KO'ing Liston early I think it adds up to a very horrible opening three rounds for Mike.

[McGrain]

Larry holmes couldnt even score consistently with his jab, yet sonny liston is going to score with a slower, more ponderous one? .

Well Larry's jab sure wasn't all that by the time he met Mike, we know that. Whilst you are right to call Liston's jab slower and more ponderous than peak Holmes jab there probably wasn't all that in it as regards the guy that met Mike. But anyway, it's neithere here nor there really. Liston's jab doesn't have to be particularly quick because Mike's head movement wasn't designed to ditch specific shots - it was designed to test accuracy, temprament and timing. All areas where Lisotn excels.

[McGrain]

uh no, its designed to slip the jab, thats pretty much it. it did it extremely well too.


You're talking about a specific punch. I said shot. He can be timed, like Frazier, it's just more difficult.

[ironchamp]

Well Larry's jab sure wasn't all that by the time he met Mike, we know that. Whilst you are right to call Liston's jab slower and more ponderous than peak Holmes jab there probably wasn't all that in it as regards the guy that met Mike. But anyway, it's neithere here nor there really. Liston's jab doesn't have to be particularly quick because Mike's head movement wasn't designed to ditch specific shots - it was designed to test accuracy, temprament and timing. All areas where Lisotn excels.

Larry's jab may not have been where it once was but it was formidable. And so was Pinklon Thomas's jab as well.

I tried watching the Liston Patterson fight (the first one) to analyze how a Liston Tyson fight would play out. I can't help but think that Tyson would be doing more damage to Liston than vice versa being the bigger puncher, and having the faster hands.

Tyson is actually the bigger of the two, though he is shorter. A Liston victory is definately a possibility but If I were an odds maker with a miser mentality I'd make Tyson a favorite.


Tyson TKO6

[McGrain]

I tried watching the Liston Patterson fight (the first one) to analyze how a Liston Tyson fight would play out. I can't help but think that Tyson would be doing more damage to Liston than vice versa being the bigger puncher, and having the faster hands.

Liston is the bigger puncher of the two.

It's speed and volume that would bring a Tyson victory here if there was one, in combination with slipping the jab.

But if Tyson is overly aggressive, I really think he will get blown out early. He has to fight the right fight to have a chance. If Liston frightens him, he's done.

Tyson is the more unknown of the two I feel. He's the reason I would never lay money on this fight.

[robert ungurean]

There may be something to this. What Tyson pretended to be? Or what he allowed the media to bullying him into pretending to be? That is what Liston actually was.
Correct.
Sonny actually was what Tyson pretented to be.
A legit. BAD ASS

[ironchamp]

Liston is the bigger puncher of the two.

It's speed and volume that would bring a Tyson victory here if there was one, in combination with slipping the jab.

But if Tyson is overly aggressive, I really think he will get blown out early. He has to fight the right fight to have a chance. If Liston frightens him, he's done.

Tyson is the more unknown of the two I feel. He's the reason I would never lay money on this fight.

I doubt Mike would be scared of Sonny. Remember at age 20 Tyson was supremely confident in his abilities. In fact his confidence bordered on arrogance. Nobody makes comments like "There is not a man that God created that could ever beat me"

You really think that Liston is the bigger puncher?

[McGrain]

I doubt Mike would be scared of Sonny. Remember at age 20 Tyson was supremely confident in his abilities. In fact his confidence bordered on arrogance. Nobody makes comments like "There is not a man that God created that could ever beat me"

I would guess he wouldn't be scared of Mike. That would be my guess. But here is the thing - what Mike projected is what Sonny saw in the mirror every morning. And these guys work on a higher plane in terms of body language and reads. Tyson would know this. I say it's possible but unlikley.

You really think that Liston is the bigger puncher?

I think that Liston hit harder than Tyson, yes.

[McGrain]

Tyson is a bigger puncher than liston, and a far better one.

If I believed these things were both true (And they are very broad - Liston def has a better jab for example, probably has better body shots) then I would pick Tyson, like you have.

[hobgoblin]

Great point. So we've discovered, for ourselves, without any help from CT or Janitor or anyone, a great intangible for this fight.

Can Liston score on Tyson's head coming in.

Unsure - but I will promise you, Tyson isn't coming "through" any Liston jab. If he gets hit, he loses that exchange, badly.

Because I would favour Liston to hit him with a decent % and don't see Mike KO'ing Liston early I think it adds up to a very horrible opening three rounds for Mike.

Tyson's chin isn't as good as someone as McCall or Mercer but it is indeed granite and is clearly superior to Liston's. Liston did have a great jab that would keep Tyson busy but IMO - it was not AS fast as Douglas' and this is important to point out because this was an important reason for it landing so frequently. Additionally, Douglas won by throwing 4 punch combinations against Tyson on the INSIDE - Sonny would wrestle with Tyson but Tyson would provide 0 resistance as he almost always did (don't know why?) and therefore lose minimal energy. Sonny ONLY neutralizes Tyson on the inside (who was always a lazy infighter despite the best talent for it) and therefore fails to GAIN like Douglas did by beating the hell out of him in the inside.

The jab of Liston ALONE is not going to be enough TO OUTMANEUVER Tyson. OUTMANEUVER is the key word here - NOT OUTSLUG (this is why I didn't talk about Liston's left hook or the right). Liston's slugging ability is great but he isn't going to outslug Tyson - Tyson will handily win that one with his superior speed, countering, and superior chin. Ruddock hit him with shots that would have flattened lesser men but Tyson never came close to giving up - to discourage him - you gotta strategically frustrate him - MANEUVER. Douglas outboxed him, Holy outboxed him, Lewis (vs washed up Tyson) outboxed him. No one ever outslugged him. The only person I'd consider outslugging Tyson is Big George.

People talk about pushing Tyson back - that's hardly a problem for Tyson. Watch round 3 of Holyfield fight (yes, infamous bite fight). Try to minimize the disgusting antics and watch Holyfield push back Tyson - works great for Tyson. Tyson's footwork is excellent - he stays in the right stance - he's put right where he wants to be -midrange - and he comes rushing in and lands some great punches with blinding speed. That is what would happen with Liston - pushing back Tyson IMO is not a great thing.

Tyson will definitely win the opening rounds - he is not Floyd Patterson (for the better and the worse). Additionally, watch Holy-Tyson - how successful Tyson is with the long right hand lead thans to his quickness. See that right hand against Golota coming at long distance thanks to his quickness. Tyson lands ONLY a few of those (and he CAN) and Liston will be out. Liston can land many more jabs - Tyson lands a few of his rights - down goes Liston.

I'm going to say Tyson wins in round 8 with a few slow midrounds where Liston keeps him busy with the jab. His speed, durability, and superior delivery and variety of punches win him the fight.

[Vanboxingfan]

Great point. So we've discovered, for ourselves, without any help from CT or Janitor or anyone, a great intangible for this fight.

Can Liston score on Tyson's head coming in.

Unsure - but I will promise you, Tyson isn't coming "through" any Liston jab. If he gets hit, he loses that exchange, badly.

Because I would favour Liston to hit him with a decent % and don't see Mike KO'ing Liston early I think it adds up to a very horrible opening three rounds for Mike.

Excellent match up, I'd favour Tyson early and Liston late. Tyson's best chance of winning is to take Liston out in the first 3-4 rounds, after that I think Liston would methodically bust him up or at least slow him down and frustrate him to the point of Tyson either loosing on points or getting KO'd, with the former being the more likely of the two. Hard fight to predict.

[Silver]

Tyson wins by decision if he fights him smart and not slug. Otherwise, Sonny stops him in 4 or 5 rounds.actually it was seem that liston would be smart not to slug. he can actually box tyson and win. tyson on the other hand has to slug to win.

[Silver]

Correct.
Sonny actually was what Tyson pretented to be.
A legit. BAD ASSmaybe between the two. tyson mental makeup might not allow him to do what he wants since he used to being the feared one. but liston got bullied by ali so you never know.

[hobgoblin]

Not true. They hit relatively the same as far as power, Liston having a small advantage in brute force. Tyson was quicker and more explosive, Liston had the better jab, and the way more powerful jab.

Tyson had the far superior uppercuts.

Left hook; Liston
Jab: Liston
Right hand: Tyson
Left Uppercut: Tyson
Right Uppercut: Tyson
"Left Hand" ; "Right Hook" - Tyson

Tyson had more angle, more explosive, speed, etc. Power - equal.

I pointed this out because it will surface in the fight

[hobgoblin]

Correct.
Sonny actually was what Tyson pretented to be.
A legit. BAD ASS

I will second this too. Liston was a bad man. In fact, I emphasized this in the "Liston and Tyson go into an alley - who walks out alive thread". I picked Liston in that one. But this is a boxing match - it is different. Taking beatings by cops, being a street thug, street fighting etc are not directly relevnt to the ring. Remember, Tex Cobb wanted to fight Norton in a street fight - Norton wanted no part of Cobb without gloves.

[Sonny's jab]

I'd pick Liston.

He was actually more of a boxer than people are giving him credit for. He could certainly outmanuever Tyson, as Buster Douglas did.

Of course Tyson could get past the jab at times, but Liston would hold and hit him on the inside. Could Tyson land a combination so devastating as to end the fight ? Against Liston at his best, I doubt it. Liston had a good defensive shell when under attack too.

[Minotauro]

I think Liston would win in an absolute war, I have a feeling that the fact Liston is even more intimidating then Tyson would hold significance giving him the mental edge. Also he is physically stronger and can push Mike back where he was uncomfortable. Liston TKO 10

[Stewbear]

Ok Liston did have a great jab, and Tyson's rythmic headmovement isnt so godly that he can slip anything, far from it.
Also Tyson was shit on the inside! and far from fearsome.
By any standards I cant see how someone can claim Tyson had a better chin that liston either.
So Liston would stop Tyson mid rounds:good

[McGrain]

By any standards I cant see how someone can claim Tyson had a better chin that liston either.

I think I agree with this, though Tyson did have a really good chin.

[Stonehands89]

Tyson himself said in an interview during the late 80s that he had devised strategies for every former HW champ in history, but had to concede that he had no answers for "Liston's jab". Tyson was a student of the history and Liston worried him.

I take issue with a few themes on this thread.

First is the argument that Liston's chin was suspect. That is a false, unless you believe the farce that was Ali-Liston II, or you place inordinate value on the Martin fight that happened when Liston was at least in his late 30s. If Liston's chin was not as durable as it was, I'd favor Tyson. Liston's chin is durable, and that propels him as the favorite in my book.

About Liston's jab. Liston would be a step behind Tyson in terms of speed. However, Liston's jab may not land squarely on Tyson's cheek, but Liston was good with making allowances for that. For instance, Patterson had the same bobbing and weaving style as Liston, so Liston stuck his jab at Floyd's eyes, left it there for a moment, and then came around with heavy rights to his right side. In the rematch, Liston seemed to jab at the shoulders.

Against Tyson, relying on the jab as an offensive weapon would fail during the early rounds. Tyson would counter it. But I see Liston using it to measure him and to get him off balance. An off balance puncher is at a disadvantage. On the inside, Liston would not be wrestling while Tyson is taking a rest. Liston would be throwing short hooks to the side of the head and big right hooks to the side. Liston would be very effective in close, because Tyson's speed advantage would be neutralized and he would be bulled around. Liston was far stronger in my estimation.

Liston was better inside and at long range, with that 84 inch reach. His uppercuts were devestating... and a crouching Frazier-like incoming style is at serious risk against either a Liston or a Foreman. Tyson would have to jam with him at mid-range, but Liston knew angles and was defensively sound. Liston would also be forcing Tyson backward with his strength and off balance with that jab. There is a slim chance, very slim, that Tyson could jump on him early and KO him, but outside of that every round sees Tyson getting weaker and Liston gaining confidence.

Liston KO Tyson >10.

[C. M. Clay II]

maybe between the two. tyson mental makeup might not allow him to do what he wants since he used to being the feared one. but liston got bullied by ali so you never know.

Silver, you're avatar is distracting me.:shock:

[sonnylistonmich]

tyson said to cus I can't beat Sonny Liston. Don't worry Mike he's not hear any more

[Azzer85]

This is purely 50/50 for me, Liston has the skills and size and power to wear Tyson down late and KO him,
my question is how would Listons chin hold up though?

Also, Liston never fought ANYONE like Tyson.

Actually Tyson himself stated, the one man hed be afraid of fighting, was Liston.

Liston is the daddy of all the heavyweights (after Clay/Ali), IMO he beats them all, but Tyson is 50-50

[Azzer85]

Tyson himself said in an interview during the late 80s that he had devised strategies for every former HW champ in history, but had to concede that he had no answers for "Liston's jab". Tyson was a student of the history and Liston worried him.
Id love to have more info regarding this

First is the argument that Liston's chin was suspect. That is a false, unless you believe the farce that was Ali-Liston II, or you place inordinate value on the Martin fight that happened when Liston was at least in his late 30s. If Liston's chin was not as durable as it was, I'd favor Tyson. Liston's chin is durable, and that propels him as the favorite in my book.
I wouldnt question Listons chin after the Ali II farce, however, Tyson is a totally different force of nature, the question still stands could Liston take what Tyson brings? Tyson at least showed what hes made of in the Ruddock fights.

About Liston's jab. Liston would be a step behind Tyson in terms of speed. However, Liston's jab may not land squarely on Tyson's cheek, but Liston was good with making allowances for that. For instance, Patterson had the same bobbing and weaving style as Liston, so Liston stuck his jab at Floyd's eyes, left it there for a moment, and then came around with heavy rights to his right side. In the rematch, Liston seemed to jab at the shoulders.
Listons jab is one of the best, however his footwork isnt all that, could Tyson figure out his jab after a while? Douglas and Holyfield both used a good jab + angles, i dont see Liston using angles. Remember when Tyson figure out Mathis.

Against Tyson, relying on the jab as an offensive weapon would fail during the early rounds. Tyson would counter it. But I see Liston using it to measure him and to get him off balance. An off balance puncher is at a disadvantage. On the inside, Liston would not be wrestling while Tyson is taking a rest. Liston would be throwing short hooks to the side of the head and big right hooks to the side. Liston would be very effective in close, because Tyson's speed advantage would be neutralized and he would be bulled around.
Liston was far stronger in my estimation. Liston was def strong and Tyson wasnt that hard to push around.

[TAC602]

Liston is one of the few I see going through Mike without much incident.

[DonBoxer]

The key to this fight is how well can Tyson slip the jab and how well can Sonny land the jab.

I think it would be an extremely close fight and see it going into the late rounds with both men taking their fair share of punishment.

If Liston has been more successful with the jab i can see him stopping Tyson late or taking a UD.

If Tyson has managed to slip and work past the jab then i can see him slowing Lsiton down and taking a late TKO/KO.

If pressured to answer i think Liston has a better chance just because i can imagine Tyson getting frustrated and jumping into some solid jabs.

[Stevie G]

Sonny was not averse to taking a backwards step to create room, but usually came forward, pressing the fight. Two unstoppable forces collide -- who takes it?
Liston. For three or four rounds,these two would go at it,hammer and tong. Tyson would start losing confidence,and eventually fall.

Liston in seven or eight.

[Stevie G]

i think tyson would knock liston out in 7 or 8rds......
Then Sonny would knock Don King out at the post fight conference. For trying to rip him off. :D

[AREA 53]

Slipping Listons Jab and coming inside. perhaps would not deliver the same results for Tyson, that slipping The Jabs of other, "non-predatory" Fighters Tyson Met Like Tubbs, Thomas, Biggs, Etc, acheived, Liston would probably Prey for an Insde Fight, Ok Give him a few Extra Inches Punching Room.

Sometimes Mike Does not keep working when up Very Close, (As a Frazier Would) and with his feet often too close together he can be pushed back as Holyfield Showed, I actually Do not have complete faith in Either to Grit it out if things start to go against them to any great degree, Unlike against mobile Boxers who they will, all being well, belive that they can ultimately catch up with and despatch, but in this match, both would recognise the other as a Heavy Density Predator , who doesnt let wounded prey off the hook, but destroys it in Brutal quick order !

Sometimes when tyson feels threatened he seems to up the Trash Talk, But would he Tell Liston he was going to make him his Girlfriend ? somehow i doubt it, i think they both spoke each others language, Liston with looks more then words, and intimidation will not work, this one would have to be won through deed, and is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that Tyson might implode mentally and commit some horrendous Foul ? or liston if he starts to take a consistent Battering might Mentally Fold as opposed to Physically, with the Physical Fold to Follow ? nothing is wrong with Listons Chin, it might be a gradual leakage of his willpower, Both are actually Great "On Top" fighters, its when one Slips behind that the uncertainty begins, Tyson would probably be Favoured by the Younger Follower with Perhaps The Older Follower Favouring Liston ? ( I.m Probably In The Middle !)

I would feel that Tyson would be made the overall Bookies Favourite, But in which case i would fancy an upset, i think a young - pre Clay / championship Liston has the determination to Make Tyson Work and Take him to the Middle rounds, as i can see a lot of clinching and mauling, with each Fighters Bombruns being Sporadic and Short Lived, as Tyson Tires Liston may find His Jab Starts to become much more Effective. once Liston is Comfortable with the Pace, i Can See Tyson Winding Down Somewhat, and as Liston feels his Second Wind coming on, i can See him maintaining the pace and Keeping the Action Steady, but steady in his Favour, a winning formula to take him to the payoff moment, It actually may depend on how a tiring Tyson keeps it together as to wether he hears the final bell or not, if he starts Stumbling in Throwing Single shots before falling into a Clinch, i think Liston would at some stage catch him coming in for perhaps an 8th Round ko,

Tyson was reputed to be at his best in the Spinks Fight, BUT was spinks really that much of a barometer that night, Mercury may not freeze but Spinks surely did ! so once again Tyson had enjoyed things so very much his own way, But what would happen if this young Man-Child couldnt intimidate his mature strong opponent, and started taking his own medicine from the Stoney Faced one ?

If we are talking about A 22 - 24 year old Tyson against a 28-29 year old Liston then Perhaps Sonny could of kept his (Embryonic ?) Inner demons in check long enough to get through the Dangerous early rounds until the Fight Settles down to a pace more Suited for Sonny ? He certainly has the strenght not to be bullied, Their Both Sprinters to a degree, Tyson much the Faster, but can he stay with Liston over a Longer Distence ? Whilst it wouldnt Shock me if Tyson was to Treat Liston Like he did Frank Bruno, i would favour the Upset with perhaps a Younger Liston displaying a Disipiline and fortitude not usually associated with him, perhaps unfairly because of the clay results, but this Sonny was aging and overconfident by then,

The Younger Liston could certainly cope with tyson's Intimidation because he could undertand it, he was after all a past-master himself, but i do have my doubts as to wether the perhap more all-round Talented Tyson, - But A ManChild in his Acredited Prime, - could hold it together mentally when he finds himself on the receiving end from Liston !

Truth to tell, if they both just cut loose, when the Mushroom Cloud clears it could be anyone on the canvas, Tyson is an instinctual operator, but if Liston comes in behind the heavy Jab, Jams Tysons Attack Signals, puts Static in his Attic, and breeds in Tyson a sense of caution and having to Think before firing, then Sonny could nullify any disadvantage in lack of speed and create the openings and targeting time he requires to unload successfully.

Its easy to become seduced by Tyson on the strengh of his usual unhindered output, but i feel Tyson will not be nearly so effective when he has to operate while nasty Payloads are Incoming. Not from a technical "Boxer" Remember - But from a fellow destroyer

Two Bullies, Two Great "OnTop" Fighters, Man against Man Child

Call them what you will, I could easily of been proven wrong but

I'd Plumb for The Younger "Prime" Stoney-Faced One.

[Sangria]

Larry's jab may not have been where it once was but it was formidable. And so was Pinklon Thomas's jab as well.

I tried watching the Liston Patterson fight (the first one) to analyze how a Liston Tyson fight would play out. I can't help but think that Tyson would be doing more damage to Liston than vice versa being the bigger puncher, and having the faster hands.

Tyson is actually the bigger of the two, though he is shorter. A Liston victory is definately a possibility but If I were an odds maker with a miser mentality I'd make Tyson a favorite.


Tyson TKO6

I agree with this post by Ironchamp. Tyson is bigger than Liston with faster hands and a workrate that will give Liston trouble.

[Seamus]

Kid Dynamite by KO in 5.

This ain't the up-prepared Tyson of the Douglas fight or the post-incarceration version, both of which Liston would take.

[frankenfrank]

Tyson wins by stoppage of course , and it doesn't take Tyson 2 stop Liston .
But d old delusional fantasists here (along with a few young imitators) pick Liston even over Tua , Foreman & Vitali Klitschko .
Sure they will say every time that Liston's "84 inch" reach will have Valuev in so much trouble and Liston's right hand will go all d way and KO d giant :yep .
After all it was "that" long and "that " powerful .
Then Liston gets upset by Hasim Rahman and Orlin Norris :yep .
Since Liston didn't fight Chuvalo , it is hard 2 know his true worth . I think Chuvalo , Cleroux and Doug Jones were d best contenders of his era , and he fought none of them . Not claiming he would have lost 2 them , but he fought yet inferior opposition 2 what was actually available in his infraweak era .
Of course n "educated" historian will claim that he beat those who beat them , but d truth remains that d best of his era were those i mentioned and not those who took some pathetic gift (maybe sometimes not gifts , just maybe , but still unimpressing) decisions over them .

[Seamus]

A lot of good points here for either side of the argument. Great thread.

In the end, I think Liston has more trouble with Tyson's speed of attack and combinations than Tyson has with Liston's power and jab. I may change my mind in another couple hours.

[bonzo7580]

tyson would have been too fast and powerful 8 rounds at the most .

[MagnaNasakki]

I don't think a version of Tyson existed that could handle a truly, truly formidable head to head monster like Liston.

Had he stayed on the right path? Absolutely. I don't think we ever saw Tyson's prime. I think we saw him close, and then begin to plummet.

Even at his best, he got hit with big punches. His offense was dynamite, he was fast, he'd be very very dangerous(Maybe the most dangerous heavyweight ever, early), but his defense has been horrendously overrated: Even guys he dropped in a single round got in power shots.

You don't want to get hit much by Liston, and frankly, Tyson never demonstrated he'd be able to consistently avoid that happening. I think in an absolute peak situation, a Tyson that is more myth than we've ever seen(Though I think with Rooney and without King, he WOULD have arrived there), he stands a real solid chance to get through Liston early. But Sonny is no Spinks or Berbick. To beat him, Mike would need to go rounds, he'd get hit, and he probably would get put away- He never broke down and put away a fighter better than Razor Ruddock.

60-40 in favor of Liston, imo.

[frankenfrank]

Liston was no Spinks or Berbick but he wasn't Tucker or James Smith either .
And I think that Pinklon Thomas (who actually had an impressing chin) and Larry Holmes (who did have more than 1 good moment after his defeat 2 Tyson) do give some indication of how Liston would have fared . Liston was more dangerous than them but then he was less durable .
And a jab will not keep Tyson at bay , as was proven by these men .
Holmes knew it from d start , that his jab would have been ineffective , so he tried 2 set Tyson 4d right but Tyson wasn't waiting 4 him 2 get set 4 it , and Liston wasn't known 4 excessive speed either , and his power is very much overrated and was only "proven" vs fragile opponents .

[Liechhardt]

Liston would win, too tough. Mike struggled with Boneclutcher, Tucker, when he got backed up had no idea.

[Hookie]

Liston's a little taller, they were similar in weight, Liston had a much longer reach but Tyson was used to having the shorter reach and fought accordingly.

Tyson was much quicker. he had quicker hands, quicker feet, and quicker movements in general.

They both were strong and punched hard. They could both take a good punch.

I really feel that Tyson's power would be a bigger factor in this fight than Liston's. I'm not even saying Tyson punched harder... but when you factor in accuracy, defense, speed, workrate, and durability... Tyson gets the nod.

In these days Tyson was a good pupil. He trained hard, listened to his corner, and was well prepared for a wide variety of styles.

Tyson had beat the usual trial horses on the way up but he almost always beat them quicker and more impressively than anyone else did. He went on to beat-

Jesse Ferguson KO6- his most important fight at that point, Ferguson had beat James Douglas, he was stopped in 10 by Carl Williams, went on to lose by MD to James Smith and beat Ray Mercer

James Tillis W10- Tillis had fought for a World title, Tyson won about 8 out of 10 rounds and dropped Tillis

Mitch Green W10- Tyson won about 9 out of 10 rounds vs. the 6'5" 225Lb solid veteran

Marvis Frazier KO1- 30 seconds! Holmes had beat him in 2:57 of the 1st round but Frazier had wins over James Broad, Joe Bugner, Bernard Benton, James Tillis, Jose Ribalta, and James Smith.

Jose Ribalta- Tyson dropped the 6'5" fighter 3 times

Alfonzo Ratliff KO2- 6'4" former WBC CW World Champ

Trevor Berbick KO2- Tyson wins the WBC HW belt

James Smith W12- Tyson won 11 or 12 rounds vs. the 6'5" 235Lb solid Smith and the WBA HW belt.

Pinklon Thomas KO6- former WBC HW World Champ

...all before the age of 21

[Hookie]

Liston was born no earlier than 1930 but some say as late as 1932. Even if he was born in 1932... that means at age 28 he had not yet fought Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, or Floyd Patterson x2. At this point he had beat-

Johnny Summerlin W8 x2- close fights

Marty Marshall 2 out of 3- L8, KO6, W10... Marshall broke his jaw

Bert Whitehurst W10 x2

Wayne Bethea KO1

Ernie Cab KO8

Mike DeJohn KO6

Cleveland Williams KO3 and KO2

Nino Valdes KO3

Willi Besmanoff KO7

Howard King KO8

Roy Harris KO1

I like Tyson by decision or late round KO.

[Hookie]

Liston would win, too tough. Mike struggled with Boneclutcher, Tucker, when he got backed up had no idea.

When exactly did he struggle with Smith and Tucker? I guess because he didn't knock them out he must have struggled with them? Maybe you could give Smith a round vs. Tyson? Maybe you could give Tucker two rounds? So in these 24 rounds he lost 3 rounds at the most.

Liston keeps getting better every year despite the fact that he died over 40 years ago.

The word struggled gets thrown around way too much. Struggled is what Liston did vs. small Heavyweights like Johnny Summerlin and Marty Marshall. He won two close 8 round decisions vs. Summerlin (1 by SD). He lost an 8th round SD to Marshall (Marshall broke Liston's jaw in this fight). Liston beat Marshall KO6 and W10 in rematches.

You can also make a case that Liston "struggled" vs. Eddie Machen as well. Liston clearly won but Machen had his moments... way more moments than Smith and Tucker had vs. Tyson combined.

[KINGOFTHE1ROUND]

i think tyson would knock liston out in 7 or 8rds......

since when did Tyson score late KOs? He had one KO in round 7 but that was a rarity. If he dosent get Liston in 3 or 4,he is not going to get him by KO.

[TAC602]

since when did Tyson score late KOs? He had one KO in round 7 but that was a rarity. If he dosent get Liston in 3 or 4,he is not going to get him by KO.

Which one in Round 7? Biggs or Ruddock?

He also knocked out Ribalta in the 10th.

[ticar]

i think styles favor liston.tyson rates very high h2h,but he would probably get his ass kicked in this one.probably the worst match-up for him,including foreman.

[Kid Bacon]

I doubt Mike would be scared of Sonny. Remember at age 20 Tyson was supremely confident in his abilities. In fact his confidence bordered on arrogance. Nobody makes comments like "There is not a man that God created that could ever beat me"



Sure Tyson talked the talk, but could he walk the walk against Liston? :think

[KINGOFTHE1ROUND]

Which one in Round 7? Biggs or Ruddock?

He also knocked out Ribalta in the 10th.

Yes ok. You are right. So Mike had 2 late KO's in his entire career but he was an early KO guy,basically

[RockyJim]

Both are bullies...if you were not afraid of Tyson and punched back...fights over for him...Sonny was intimidated by Ali...he got into Sonny's head in 1964 and 1965...and we know what happened there...could go either way...depends on who gets in the first telling punches i guess...