CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er? [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

j0hn0

08-01-2007, 12:48 AM

brooklyn1550

08-01-2007, 01:02 AM

Yes, Wladimir can become an ATG and a Hall of Famer. He needs to unify all the title belts against Chagaev/Ibragimov and Peter/Maskaev along with wins over current contenders such as Holyfield, Lyakhovich, Valuev, Thompson, etc. and beat future stars such as Povetkin, Solis, and Haye should they continue on the right track. It wouldn't hurt to avenge his loss to Corrie Sanders if he makes some noise in the future, but he can still become an all time great. To be honest, I really think he will.

thunder06

08-01-2007, 01:04 AM

well he has to fight at least 8 fighters to be the undisputed champ and take on the top contenders. he only fights 1-2 times a year. its gonna by around 6 years before he'll be considered an ATG

Asterion

08-01-2007, 01:12 AM

If he unifies, yes.

MagnificentMatt

08-01-2007, 01:23 AM

seems to me that even when he does win now, its always with asterisk, (*despite the losses to sanders, brewster). and his opposition isnt credited for facing the best hw in the world, they just as often questioned for losing to a guy with "no heart" and "no chin"...

whats worse is there simply doesnt seem to be the competition out there to change any of it. if he beats povetkin, holyfield, and any of the other current title holders in his next 3 fights...does that really raise his status all that much? even if LL came back and fought him, it would be a middle aged over the hill LL that wlad wouldnt get credit for...

so fair or not, is it even possible for him to reach any kind of ATG status?

Almost definetly, i have different thoughts than most on the heavyweight division though...Too sum my thoughts on the heavyweight division heres a quick one just to do it.. If there was no Ali there wouldnt have been Norton, Shavers, Bonavena, Lyle the list goes on, they were no better than any other heavyweight contenders/champions of this era, but they fought ali, so they get praised, its crap..Back to the question, yes Wlad will almost have a garunteed atg spot, even people who hate the divison will admit too it cause he at least cleared out what he could.

Vanboxingfan

08-01-2007, 01:28 AM

He has the skills to be an ATG but currently he doesn't have the competition. So for now at least I'd say the jury is out.

Personally I'd like to see him become one and I'd love to see him fight someone like a prime Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson or someone of that calibre.

The only thing besides lack of competition that could stop him would be if he was KO'd again. I think that would stop his climb to become an ATG in it's tracks.

kg0208

08-01-2007, 01:38 AM

He can be. The division is not very strong right now, but that has never played a large part.

sdsfinest22

08-01-2007, 01:52 AM

I disagree.

I dont think Vitali is great.

Wlad has shown alot more than VK has. The only thing VK has ever shown in the ring is what face muscles look like under the skin.

I AGREE WITH YOU HERE AS BOTH VLADIMIR AND VITALI ARE FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FROM GREAT..PLEASE I HOPE THE WRITER OF THE QUOTE BEFORE THIS DOESNT PUT THEM IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS THE REAL GREATS LIKE ALI PATTERSON MARCIANO FRAZIER FOREMAN N EVEN LENNOX..

bb251

08-01-2007, 01:58 AM

When it's all said and done I think he will be...

smokey

08-01-2007, 02:25 AM

I think he'll probably get in the HoF, but that's not saying much, since just about every titlist eventually gets in. Being rated ATG by boxing scribes in the future? I don't see it... not because of his defeats, either. He hasn't fought a career defining type of opponent, yet, and there isn't really one hanging out and waiting, either.

There are a few fighters who are rated ATG for simply dominating totally in a weak era, but they usually don't have loses to a mid/upper-mid level fighter on their records, much less two. For that reason, I think he really needs to have a signature opponent who defines him by either pushing him in a fight or building a name on their own.

Look at Lewis. He had losses to mediocre opposition. He avenged them both, but that alone doesn't make him an ATG. He dominated his era, which helped, but it is the victories over Holyfield and Tyson that solidified the ATG status, due to those fighters reputation and accomplishments of the era. If not for those two opponents would be be viewed as an ATG or just a good champ?

The problem for Wlad is who is that opponent? He's come a long way. If he unifies the titles, he deserves a chance to prove greatness among the other champs from history.

madpup

08-01-2007, 03:54 AM

I think he can, but he needs to win a lot of fights to do it. Something like clean up the current division and beat up and comers like Povetkin, Solis, Haye.

Cachibatches

08-01-2007, 03:55 AM

Its an uphill climb, as he dug himslef a huge hole with three bizzarre/embarrassing stoppage losses, 11 knockdowns including three in the fight which is his best win to date, and the crappiest "win" ever against TOS.

Everyone else has already touched upon unification and finding the competition- I think longevity and activity are going to be two other keys. But really, there is no garuntee that he is ever going to fight more than twice a year, or fight on at all for that matter. After all, he does sometimes give the impression that he really doensn't want to be doing this.

I used to think that avenging losses was key, but based on the fact that he got no respect out of the Brewster deal, he ought not to bother with Sanders.

KillerInstinct

08-01-2007, 03:56 AM

I think so, but that's just because ,outside of MAYBE Povetkin, I don't see anyone who is going to beat Klitschko within the next 4-5 years. Klitschko's in his prime right now I think, both mental and physical. If Klitschko beats all the best contenders in the division for the next couple of years, and unifies..yes, definately I think he would be an ATG when people look at his resume in 30 years.

Orang-Utan Jim

08-01-2007, 05:40 AM

smokey

08-01-2007, 06:13 AM

Sure he can become an ATG. Why not? Because he is white and non-american?
If he unifies the titles or atleast, if unifying isn´t possible due to politics, boxes the best out there (Ring Champ) for another 3 or 4 years and beats them, I would definitely rank him in the Alltime Top10. His offensive arsenal and ring generalship is world class and his todays defense is good enough to survive against everybody out there.

My point was that dominanting a weak division with losses to questionable opponents (Purity and Sanders, Brewster defended the title for a while for more credibility) makes being an all-time great heavyweight becomes difficult to make a case for. How do you get ranked relative to guys like Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali? They had losses, but not against mid level fighters when they were in their prime. People question Marciano's greatness due to relatively weaker opposition during his reign, and HE NEVER LOST!

Would Leon Spinks be recognized as an ATG heavyweight? He was a universally recognized champ. That by itself doesn't do it.

Cachibatches

08-01-2007, 06:36 AM

My point was that dominanting a weak division with losses to questionable opponents (Purity and Sanders, Brewster defended the title for a while for more credibility) makes being an all-time great heavyweight becomes difficult to make a case for. How do you get ranked relative to guys like Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali? They had losses, but not against mid level fighters when they were in their prime. People question Marciano's greatness due to relatively weaker opposition during his reign, and HE NEVER LOST!

Would Leon Spinks be recognized as an ATG heavyweight? He was a universally recognized champ. That by itself doesn't do it.
Well stated. Very well stated.

To be int he running for ATG status, every flaw is magnified, every loss is scrutinized. If you survive this process, you are an ATG.

11 knockdowns, 3 stoppage losses against weak competition, and an asterix next to quite a few of the big name victories. That is not ATG material.

I am not saying he can't do it over the long run. But to say that he is not going to be recognized becasue of color and ethnicity is wrong.

fists of fury

08-01-2007, 06:55 AM

Dominating a division (especially a weak division) does not necessarily mean a fighter can reach ATG status. Wlad's a good fighter, a very good fighter, but I just don't see greatness in him, or his brother for that matter.

Greatness is not a numbers game. Floyd Patterson was the youngest heavyweight champion ever and the first to regain the title. He made quite a few title defences too. Yet, nobody would call him an ATG.

I'm not saying it's out of the question for Wlad to one day be an ATG, but simply unifying the titles or making a string of defences is just not enough. Nowhere near.

Mendoza

08-01-2007, 07:32 AM

seems to me that even when he does win now, its always with asterisk, (*despite the losses to sanders, brewster). and his opposition isnt credited for facing the best hw in the world, they just as often questioned for losing to a guy with "no heart" and "no chin"...

whats worse is there simply doesnt seem to be the competition out there to change any of it. if he beats povetkin, holyfield, and any of the other current title holders in his next 3 fights...does that really raise his status all that much? even if LL came back and fought him, it would be a middle aged over the hill LL that wlad wouldnt get credit for...

so fair or not, is it even possible for him to reach any kind of ATG status?

Wlad will be in the hall of fame. He is the best heavyweight in this time period, and such a man always gets the nod for the hall of fame. Boxing’s hall of fame has liberal standards, and a high induction rate.

For the stat geeks, Wlad is something like 10-2 in title fights, has a great ring record, and has scored a high percentage of knockouts. Some of those knockouts have fantastic replay value.

Bummy Davis

08-01-2007, 07:34 AM

at this point I can say there are some ATG's he would beat and there are some that would beat him,we have to see how he developes and improves, when a fighter hits his 30's, he starts to relax in the ring so we may not have seen the best of Vlad,time will tell, he certainly would be a problem for the champs of the last 4 decades, would he beat them? would he be an easy opponent? time will tell

Mendoza

08-01-2007, 07:35 AM

Well stated. Very well stated.

To be int he running for ATG status, every flaw is magnified, every loss is scrutinized. If you survive this process, you are an ATG.

11 knockdowns, 3 stoppage losses against weak competition, and an asterix next to quite a few of the big name victories. That is not ATG material.

I am not saying he can't do it over the long run. But to say that he is not going to be recognized becasue of color and ethnicity is wrong.

The bald truth is, most hall of fame heavyweights lost more often, and were knocked out more often…by lesser punchers. A fighter can only fight who is in his era.

Orang-Utan Jim

08-01-2007, 07:45 AM

My point was that dominanting a weak division with losses to questionable opponents (Purity and Sanders, Brewster defended the title for a while for more credibility) makes being an all-time great heavyweight becomes difficult to make a case for. How do you get ranked relative to guys like Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali? They had losses, but not against mid level fighters when they were in their prime. People question Marciano's greatness due to relatively weaker opposition during his reign, and HE NEVER LOST!

Would Leon Spinks be recognized as an ATG heavyweight? He was a universally recognized champ. That by itself doesn't do it.

So Lennox Lewis has no right to be an ATG, isn´t it? He lost to midlevel fighters Mccall and Rahman, who aren´t better than Brewster or Sanders.....

As well as Sonny Liston, who lost to Marty Marshall (who?).

BTW Klitchko had his losses before his prime. Especially the loss to Puritty was nothing but unexperience.....but never a lack of skill....

I think denying him a priori an ATG-status is nonsense....

Orang-Utan Jim

08-01-2007, 07:50 AM

Dominating a division (especially a weak division) does not necessarily mean a fighter can reach ATG status. Wlad's a good fighter, a very good fighter, but I just don't see greatness in him, or his brother for that matter.

I'm not saying it's out of the question for Wlad to one day be an ATG, but simply unifying the titles or making a string of defences is just not enough. Nowhere near.

So why is Tyson an ATG? He dominated a division as weak as nowadays (no discussion) and was KTFO in his prime to B-level fighter Douglas. After his comeback in 95 he never ever baet someone worth to mention.....

Vantage_West

08-01-2007, 07:53 AM

No fuckin' way.

The ONLY way, and I mean ONLY (pronounced; own-lee) way Wlad can achieve ATG status is if he unify all the titles and become UNDISPUTED HVYWT Champ.

The HVYWT competion is way too lame for him to be even considered an ATG, even if he never loses again in his career.

But that pretty much goes for anybody in this era, if Masakiev somehow unfies the title and is undisputed, is anyone gonna argue that he is not an ATG?exactly he has to unify the division become undisputed rematch corry sanders....which even if he does win isnt going to get as much credentials as lewis did when he stopped mcCall or rahman as both of them either had a title or were in the elimination stage.

hall of famer maybe atg no way

swedeone

08-01-2007, 07:54 AM

NO.

NO.

NO.

:hi:

Vantage_West

08-01-2007, 07:54 AM

I disagree.

I dont think Vitali is great.

Wlad has shown alot more than VK has. The only thing VK has ever shown in the ring is what face muscles look like under the skin.:rofl :rofl :rofl

Vantage_West

08-01-2007, 07:55 AM

NO.

NO.

NO.

:hi:get to the point:nono

Deslizer

08-01-2007, 07:58 AM

It's possible. Be active for ~5 more years, unify the titles, beat 3-4 top contenders ... he could be a ATG than.

Vantage_West

08-01-2007, 07:58 AM

I think he can, but he needs to win a lot of fights to do it. Something like clean up the current division and beat up and comers like Povetkin, Solis, Haye.yeah but he is already getting on a bit he should be unified champ already and way into bum of the month tour

Vantage_West

08-01-2007, 07:59 AM

It's possible. Be active for ~5 more years, unify the titles, beat 3-4 top contenders ... he could be a ATG than.but he aint young no more he was compared to other fighters in the division but he isnt peak physical stregnth

Drexl

08-01-2007, 08:00 AM

HOF is pretty much guaranteed for Wlad. Every man and his dog gets in there eventually. They add half a dozen names each year - do half a dozen GREAT fighters emerge every year? No, therefore they end up adding fighters that were either pretty good or just well-known.

ATG, I don't know. I think he'll probably crack the top-20.

Deslizer

08-01-2007, 08:13 AM

even if he does win isnt going to get as much credentials as lewis did when he stopped mcCall or rahman as both of them either had a title or were in the elimination stage.I don't think Wlad would get much credit if he beats Sanders, because Sanders isn't the same boxer he was 5 years ago.
Same thing with Lewis vs McCall. The crying McCall with withdrawal symptoms wasn't the one that stopped Lewis.

Drexl

08-01-2007, 08:15 AM

I don't think Wlad would get much credit if he beats Sanders, because Sanders isn't the same boxer he was 5 years ago.
Same thing with Lewis vs McCall. The crying McCall with withdrawal symptoms wasn't the one that stopped Lewis.

The McCall that stopped Lewis was the one that had withdrawl symptoms, and he was crying in the dressing room BEFORE that fight.

Thom

08-01-2007, 08:17 AM

ATG and HOF are two very different standards. Wlad is going to the Hall. I don't know if he'll go down as an ATG though. In this weak division, he'd have a chance if he unifies and then has a long, dominant reign as the recognized champ.

Deslizer

08-01-2007, 08:18 AM

So why is Tyson an ATG? He's a ATG with his special behaviour outside the ring. ;)

Same thing with Ike Ibeabuchi. I dunno any other inactive boxer, about whom every month a thread like "Where is XY?" get opened.

lion

08-01-2007, 08:38 AM

I disagree.

I dont think Vitali is great.

Wlad has shown alot more than VK has. The only thing VK has ever shown in the ring is what face muscles look like under the skin. agree, Wlad is much better than vitaly and has fought and won better competition.
vitaly is known only for his loss to lennox who indeed was great but thats pretty much it

and i think wlad would beat vitaly!

Cachibatches

08-01-2007, 10:50 AM

So Lennox Lewis has no right to be an ATG, isn´t it? He lost to midlevel fighters Mccall and Rahman, who aren´t better than Brewster or Sanders.....

As well as Sonny Liston, who lost to Marty Marshall (who?).

BTW Klitchko had his losses before his prime. Especially the loss to Puritty was nothing but unexperience.....but never a lack of skill....

I think denying him a priori an ATG-status is nonsense....
Ali- Down four times, stopped one in the extreme twilight of his career.

Louis- Down 11 times, stopped twice, once in the extreme twilight of his career. The only time not against a big pucher was a flash knoeckdown agaisnt Braddock.

Lewis- down twice, stopped twice.

Marciano- down twice, never stopped.

I don't know about Johnson, accept that he was put on the canvas by Ketchell (under special circumstances), Chonski, and Willard.

Demspsey was stopped by Flynn, and put on the canves three times by Firpo. Possibly a coupel more.

I know Frazier had something like 16 KDs, but 6 of them were against Foreman.

I do not conider PAtterson and ATG. He might prove your point for those who do.

Holyfield went down agaisnt Bowe a couple of times,and was stopped by Bowe and Toney.

Holmes stopped only against Tyson, put down by Snipes and Shaver (did Weaver put him down? Don't remember).

Tyson had the douglas debaucle, was stopped agasint Holyfield, and those last two atrocious fights.

Liston down once stopped threee times.

Charles or Walcott would probably help make your point.

Jeffries, stopped once, might have been down a couple of times, but I don;t think so.

You know, on the balance, I am just not seeing it.

goldnarms

08-01-2007, 11:01 AM

So why is Tyson an ATG? He dominated a division as weak as nowadays (no discussion) and was KTFO in his prime to B-level fighter Douglas. After his comeback in 95 he never ever baet someone worth to mention.....

Wlad has already done two things I feel need to be done to prove ones ATG standing (2 things tyson never did BTW).

1. Avenge a loss.
2. Come off the canvas to win a fight.

He can certainly be an ATG if he continues on this path of improvement. But he REALLY needs a brutal opponent to define him. We really need to see him taken into very deep waters.

Brickhaus

08-01-2007, 11:02 AM

If he can unify and beat all comers for years, then sure, he can get there, but he'll need to do more than fighters from other eras because the current crop of heavies is so weak. Basically, he'll need to do what Holmes did.

MrSmall

08-01-2007, 11:17 AM

He hasn't really done anything so far.

charlievint

08-01-2007, 12:55 PM

seems to me that even when he does win now, its always with asterisk, (*despite the losses to sanders, brewster). and his opposition isnt credited for facing the best hw in the world, they just as often questioned for losing to a guy with "no heart" and "no chin"...

whats worse is there simply doesnt seem to be the competition out there to change any of it. if he beats povetkin, holyfield, and any of the other current title holders in his next 3 fights...does that really raise his status all that much? even if LL came back and fought him, it would be a middle aged over the hill LL that wlad wouldnt get credit for...

so fair or not, is it even possible for him to reach any kind of ATG status?

ATG????:think don't know but he is already a Hall of Famer. Not that he's done a tremendous amount in a very weak HW division, but he's done a lot with the current crop of HW's and he's dominated MOST of them. So he's setting himself up for a great career if he can continue on this path.

Bummy Davis

08-02-2007, 07:00 PM

I don't think Wlad would get much credit if he beats Sanders, because Sanders isn't the same boxer he was 5 years ago.
Same thing with Lewis vs McCall. The crying McCall with withdrawal symptoms wasn't the one that stopped Lewis.

does not matter at this point, If Vlad was prepared for Sanders the first time and not cold walking in, the fight may have been different,Sanders will always be a dangerous 3 round fighter

Scar

08-02-2007, 07:05 PM

Sure he can, all he has to do is beat all the champions out there WBC/WBA, clean out the division and he's got it. I don't think it'll be any difficult for him to accomplish that at this point and he will deserve it 100%, will be surprised if anyone disagrees after he accomplishes that.

lenin

08-02-2007, 07:06 PM

well he has to fight at least 8 fighters to be the undisputed champ and take on the top contenders. he only fights 1-2 times a year. its gonna by around 6 years before he'll be considered an ATG

1-2 times a year? he fought twice this year already

Scar

08-02-2007, 07:08 PM

1-2 times a year? he fought twice this year already

Exactly, I don't understand how anyone would question Wladimir's activity, he's always active.

RUSKULL

08-02-2007, 07:12 PM

Of course he can & I believe he will.

RUSKULL

08-02-2007, 07:18 PM

Wlad will be in the hall of fame. He is the best heavyweight in this time period, and such a man always gets the nod for the hall of fame. Boxing’s hall of fame has liberal standards, and a high induction rate.

For the stat geeks, Wlad is something like 10-2 in title fights, has a great ring record, and has scored a high percentage of knockouts. Some of those knockouts have fantastic replay value.

Those are great points and I think he might even have a chance if he retired tomorrow. :yep