So, seriously... Butterbean's power...

[Russell]

The man without a doubt doesn't have any kind of endurance to back it up, but in the short run what kind of power do you think he has?

How effective is he getting all that weight behind his shots?

It's weird... I watched a highlight video of his not too long ago and he seemed to spark more than a few guys with single shots. You know, shots where the guy looks like he's actually been shot. But looking over his record he's got a suprising amount of TKO's as opposed to KO's. Hmm.

So... Thoughts, opinions?

[mr. magoo]

The man without a doubt doesn't have any kind of endurance to back it up, but in the short run what kind of power do you think he has?

How effective is he getting all that weight behind his shots?

It's weird... I watched a highlight video of his not too long ago and he seemed to spark more than a few guys with single shots. You know, shots where the guy looks like he's actually been shot. But looking over his record he's got a suprising amount of TKO's as opposed to KO's. Hmm.

So... Thoughts, opinions?

Given that every guy he's ever beaten was a tomato can, it's difficult to give his power a rating.

[Russell]

I'm looking for semi-serious responses.

I know the guys no boxing wonder, but it's a legitimate question.

The biggest name on Esch's record that he's won against is Peter McNeeley. Thoughts on him?

[mr. magoo]

I gave you a serious answer. The guy fought tomato Cans. While McNeeley may have at least qualified for journeyman status, he was no ringer. And, if that's the best win that Esch has in 70+ victories, then you can't say much for his power, skills, abilities or whatever.

[Raggamuffin]

Isn't McNeeley the ATG who gave Tyson a shellacking bfore he got downed for the count ?

[Dostoevsky]

I bet if his punch landed on any chin of any heavyweight, he would knock them out.

[Russell]

He was never out to win championships or to be the best at anything. He's ALWAYS been an overweight heavy who could bang well enough to get guys out of there in a few rounds. Come, fight for a few minutes, get paid. Repeat several times a year and make a good living.

And that's what I'm curious over. Power.

[Unforgiven]

He hits very hard.

So do many super-heavy powerlifters, obese bouncers and local fat bully-boys.

But to translate into success in a boxing ring, you need to match them with completely inept and harmless desperate opponents, and tell those opponents there's a bonus for losing.

[Russell]

He hits very hard.

So do many super-heavy powerlifters, obese bouncers and local fat bully-boys.

But to translate into success in a boxing ring, you need to match them with completely inept and harmless desperate opponents, and tell those opponents there's a bonus for losing.

Hmm.

Has there ever been any... proof that guys threw fights against Esch?

[mr. magoo]

He was never out to win championships or to be the best at anything. He's ALWAYS been an overweight heavy who could bang well enough to get guys out of there in a few rounds. Come, fight for a few minutes, get paid. Repeat several times a year and make a good living.

And that's what I'm curious over. Power.

Had he knocked out, floored or stunned fighters who were known to have solid chins, good stamina, top conditioning etc. Then his power would be more measurable. However, to fight guys who were tomato cans, club fighters, novices and bums with mostly losing records, doesn't tell us anything. Also, despite his horribly weak competition, 19 of those guys still managed to go the distance.

[Russell]

58 KO's in 77 fights really isn't that bad, considering what the guy is.

[Unforgiven]

While McNeeley may have at least qualified for journeyman status, he was no ringer. And, if that's the best win that Esch has in 70+ victories,

The only people below the likes of Esch and McNeeley in the 'ranks' of pro boxing are the career tankers and 'stunt men' and the desperate fat tomato cans and cannon fodder with heart disease who shouldn't even be licensed to fight the real professionals.
The dark underside of pro boxing.

[mr. magoo]

58 KO's in 77 fights really isn't that bad, considering what the guy is.

Considering what the guy fought, it really isn't that good either.

[Unforgiven]

Hmm.

Has there ever been any... proof that guys threw fights against Esch?

I think so. There was a FBI investigation and sting operation that uncovered a few fixes and attempted fixes, including some stuff relating to Butterbean fights. Even a fighter who beat Esch claims he was bribed to lose, but refused.

Not that any evidence is required. Let's not fool ourselves. Fixes are rife in boxing. Tomato cans are paid to lose. I've seen fighters flop at the mere suggestion of a punch, and guess what ? The tomato can doing the "dive" shows up a few months later fighting another "prospect".
Taking dives is still a common career move for the less fortunate members of the boxing fraternity.

[Russell]

I'm not comparing him to anyone of any real importance in boxing.

KO'ing that many guys in the ring, no matter who they are, is impressive in my opinion. Shutting the lights off on that many people peroid.

Not impressive compared to his peers. Nope. Not at all. But still impressive in it's own way.

[Russell]

I think so. There was a FBI investigation and sting operation that uncovered a few fixes and attempted fixes, including some stuff relating to Butterbean fights. Even a fighter who beat Esch claims he was bribed to lose, but refused.

Not that evidence is required. Let's not fool ourselves. Fixes are rife in boxing. Tomato cans are paid to lose. I've seen fighters flop at the mere suggestion of a punch, and guess what ? The tomato can doing the "dive" shows up a few months later fighting another "prospect".

Hurm...

What really blatant recent dives come to mind, say, in the past 10 years or so?

[Unforgiven]

Hurm...

What really blatant recent dives come to mind, say, in the past 10 years or so?

I cant recall the names of bums who dive, and I dont tend to watch anything but good matches these days .....

But there was a guy who fought Danny Williams not too long ago who flopped without being hit. And I remember Herbie Hide fought a couple.

And these guys falling down do it so readily that you can see they've done it before. :lol:

Imagine what's going on in small towns and club arenas when these unknown guys like Peter McNeeley are building records that go like 36-1. I'm sure there's some faking going on.

Tyson-Seldon is high profile blatant dive. Whether that was pre-arranged or just Seldon's cowardice, it was blatant case of taking a dive. Seldon got paid and came to lose.

I've never watched much of Butterbean but I've seen enough to know the level of fighter we are talking about. Guys who are paid to lose, often explicitly told to lose. It goes on.

Yesterday I was reading a bit of the "Facing Tyson" book. Even among his opponents Sam Scaff was recalling a fight in which he was offered money to lose but not to win (NOT the Tyson fight, of course, which he could never have won), but claims he never did it.

Boxing is a business, and plenty of small time managers and trying to build up their "prospect", often trying to inflate his perceived ability with careful matchmaking. Plenty of boxers are in the game for money only, and have no love for the sport, and they know they have little talent and there are desperate for money.

You add it all together and it makes sense that some guys are taking dives, not trying to win, and faking it.
Luckily most of this happens out of the high-profile and top ranks of the game. Luckily most of the big promoters dont need to do such blatant fixing because they have the privilege of owning the best fighters who need no help.


Here are a couple of articles worth reading :

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[mr. magoo]

Take into account he's accumulated those ko's in 4 rounders. He hits very hard

Here is just one example of the type guy who Bean fought on a regular basis. He met this tomato can in like his 75th fight. Take a look at the guy's previous streak prior to facing Butterbean.

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Note: This was not even the worst of his oppnents.