SRL vs. Mugabi

[laxpdx]

This is an interesting one. Based on their respective performances against a declined Hagler, I have to say Leonard UD.

[redrooster]

My pick is Mugabi by KO.

[FlatNose]

Oof-fah! Leonard in one, just like Terry Norris did to the beast.This is no contest.

[achillesthegreat]

Leonard, no problem.

[redrooster]

You're wrong again both of you.

Norris did take him out in one but Terry Norris was Terry Norris. he easily proved to be Leonard's master in combat so in truth, Leonard is no Terry Norris. He wasn't nearly as tough and didn't have championships given to him the way Leonard did.

Terry had to earn his championship.

if you're talking the Mugabi of 1986 I think the only other middleweight around who could take him was peak Hearns. Leonard was petrified of young middleweights. That's why he chose to give up his WBC title instead of defending just once. You can't defend that.

At the time Mugabi faced Marvin, he was like iron fist. No way you can start your offense with him swinging at the same time. He just hit too hard for Leonard and his power was up there with Roldan himself. imagine leonard catching the uppercut that Hagler caught on the chin, rd.4. He'd be dead.

Even a badly faded Hagler had leonard doing drunk steps with his uppercut, rd.5. Since Leonard wasn't elusive enough to escape harm he fails to last the distance.

Mugabi wins around round 7.

[redrooster]

Oof-fah! Leonard in one, just like Terry Norris did to the beast.This is no contest.

how can you say that? Even Ray Leonard-kevin Howard was a contest. So much that it made him retire.



*Inching my way towards post #3000

[la-califa]

Leonard had too many skills for a one dimensional puncher like Mugabi. He would be to smart to get caught by Mugabi's one hope of victory. But it would only take one brutale right hand to make things very interesting...

[Titan1]

Leonard by UD 12

[Shake]

SRL struggles but prevails through ring generalship, speed, and a chin forged by Zeus himself.

[redrooster]

SRL struggles but prevails through ring generalship, speed, and a chin forged by Zeus himself.

but leonard's chin wasn't as strong as you may think. The faded hearns put him down twice but couldn't put do shit to Kinchen before him even though he struck James far more often and was sharper. Kinchen was tore aprt by Roldan the year before and Roldan is comparable with Mugabi.

More proof: Leonard was dropped by the smaller Kevin Howard so when you think it over, it's pretty ridiculous to think Leonard gets very far.

[Shake]

but leonard's chin wasn't as strong as you may think. The faded hearns put him down twice but couldn't put do shit to Kinchen before him even though he struck James far more often and was sharper. Kinchen was tore aprt by Roldan the year before and Roldan is comparable with Mugabi.

More proof: Leonard was dropped by the smaller Kevin Howard so when you think it over, it's pretty ridiculous to think Leonard gets very far.

Leonard was pretty faded himself, and you aren't about to suggest Hearns couldn't punch, are you? I could name a few fighters Hearns could 'do shit to'. Cuevas, for instance. Heck, his punch still functioned at cruiserweight.

I understand Mugabi hits harder than Hearns, and your point is that Leonard's chin is useless since Hearns' punch is enough to knock Leonard down. I say in retort that Hearns punches far sharper and faster and therefore caught Leonard way worse than Mugabi could -- I'm not saying Leonard just 'takes' a Mugabi swing for the fences roundhouse right hand and stands there blinking. I'm saying he has the chin to deal with Mugabi's power in a more, shall we say, indirect sense.

[redrooster]

Redrooster, do you realize you're delusional? You are dead wrong. Your views on Leonard are completely insane. You need therapy.

I can understand why anyone would think that except I know what I saw in the Howard fight. I am not trying to manipulate my way through to proclaim Leonard the loser.

Not only that but Leonard never made a defense at 160. If he were really any good he would have but instead he moved up another weight class so he could get a match with lalonde who can't even fight. And guess what? he got hurt in that one too, even floored. lalonde was nobody.

Think about it Pea. Mugabi was about as good a hitter as Roldan. The same Roldan who pummelled Kinchen by tko. James was very durable but even so wouldn't wobble when Tommy struck him clean which was dozens of times for 12 rounds.

And Tommy put Ray down the way Lalonde and Howard did. What do you think John's going to do? Mugabi had no fear or respect for Leonard. he'd hurt him but unlike Lalonde and Hearns, he wouldn't let him off the hook and he'd wind up just about killing him.

[redrooster]

Leonard was pretty faded himself, and you aren't about to suggest Hearns couldn't punch, are you? I could name a few fighters Hearns could 'do shit to'. Cuevas, for instance. Heck, his punch still functioned at cruiserweight.

I understand Mugabi hits harder than Hearns, and your point is that Leonard's chin is useless since Hearns' punch is enough to knock Leonard down. I say in retort that Hearns punches far sharper and faster and therefore caught Leonard way worse than Mugabi could -- I'm not saying Leonard just 'takes' a Mugabi swing for the fences roundhouse right hand and stands there blinking. I'm saying he has the chin to deal with Mugabi's power in a more, shall we say, indirect sense.

how can Ray be faded with only 35 fights??

Besides, the ring rust was gone so if anything he was sharper than before 87 with two more fights under his belt.

Tommy was the one who was faded. You could see it in his previous fights the last two years. hitman began to look stiff which is a sure sign of decline.

Then the kinchen fight was hairy for Tommy and James no doubt softened him up. That's how you become faded, Shake. Even faded, Tommy punched him to the floor twice. That's enough proof for me that Ray didn't have a very good set of whiskers.

So no one can boast of Leonard's chin when he got dropped in so many fights and then expect him to survive a guy like Mugabi. That's just wrong.

[cross_trainer]

how can Ray be faded with only 35 fights??

Besides, the ring rust was gone so if anything he was sharper than before 87 with two more fights under his belt.

Tommy was the one who was faded. You could see it in his previous fights the last two years. hitman began to look stiff which is a sure sign of decline.

Then the kinchen fight was hairy for Tommy and James no doubt softened him up. That's how you become faded, Shake. Even faded, Tommy punched him to the floor twice. That's enough proof for me that Ray didn't have a very good set of whiskers.

So no one can boast of Leonard's chin when he got dropped in so many fights and then expect him to survive a guy like Mugabi. That's just wrong.

This is the first dialogue we've had on Leonard, and I'm sure you've heard it before, but please hear me out anyway.

Your views have some merit, but I think you're biased against Leonard. This is not an insult or criticism, but simply a helpful suggestion. With any fighter, this much emphasis on his negative traits--especially when most boxing fans disagree with you--would tend to indicate that you are too extreme in your position. One or two qualifiers and asterisks in Leonard's resume would be reasonable, but the number of qualifiers you suggest would mean that Leonard was the luckiest man on earth.

Perhaps if you softened it somewhat, more would heed your comments.

[redrooster]

Thaks for dropping in CT. I too think my argument has a lot of merit.

Yes there are many negatives but leonard set the bar very low for himself and got more support than any fighter I ever known. Not bothering to defend his other titles and yet making several millions per fight. Who else could get with that? And he wasn't even that good.

The two titles in one night, the fake retirements, refusal to take rematches. Real fighters don't need this much coddling. And the knockdowns I witnessed don't instill confidence in his chin.

And the job Norris did on him should have never happened. To lose is one thing but to get owned the way he did confirms that Leonard was no all time great.

Seriously CT. Where was leonard when Hagler and hearns were peaking? he said he wanted a piece of Marvin but in the end he split the scene even though he was supposed to be the world's best fighter.

No one can take his excuse for retirement seriously when he comes back into the sport and has several more fights.

All I see is "Oh, Leonard got bored". We both know that's bull crap because he said upon his successful return he only came back for Hagler. The same Hagler he wouldn't fight years before. And then, how does he arrive at deeming lalonde also as worthy? Did he have the same ambitious goal for wanting to get Lalonde in the ring?

I just think he couldn't cut it and felt he was going to wind up hurt against the younger fighters like what happened in the Norris fight.

Look at it and you'll see Ray was no match for a guy who was given no chance to win. Where is the great adaptability the media boasted of?

You see? It's a figment of imagination. It doesn't exist and it never did. Likewise with the chin. If you didn't see it in the Geraldo fight, you'll never see because Leonard gets wobbly like I said when struck sharply and that goes for arm punchers like Geraldo.

I just don't see what people are talking about when they compliment him on his chin because I've seen more evidence to the contrary.

How does Achilles the dumb, who never knew anything until I taught him thru much pain and humiliation, arrive at Leonard beating John the beast "no problem"?

Put him in with the Mugabi Hagler had to tackle and from where I sit, Leonard's a dead man.

[jackiebrown]

i could see sugar boxing mugabi .. and then as soon as mugabi is tired down just a bit and has lost the relentless attack ... sugar would start pouring on the beating..eventually stopping him somewhere in the proximity of 9th-12th round

[redrooster]

i could see sugar boxing mugabi .. and then as soon as mugabi is tired down just a bit and has lost the relentless attack ... sugar would start pouring on the beating..eventually stopping him somewhere in the proximity of 9th-12th round

Anything's possible in the sport of fighting JB but when people say Leonard's going to beat John with no problem, that isn't likely when even Hagler struggled.

[jackiebrown]

well im configureing the styles... leonard could stay away .. mugabi i dont think would land like he did on hagler ..

you are right though.. nobody can say yay or nay .. alot of this is based on mugabi taking a turn for the worst after the hagler fight...

[jackiebrown]

That was the same Hagler that Leonard beat ya know? And Leonard's style fit Mugabi a lot better than Hagler's at that stage of his career.

exactly

[redrooster]

By the way, Welcome to the forum. A lot of people think I'm mainly a leonard basher but in truth, I am die hard fan of the early 1900's up until the end of the 1920's but I rarely talk about that here.

We've had a lot of great posters who have come and gone. Some have gotten booted off and I figure I'm not too far off because of my unpopularity and brutal honesty. Still, I'm going to continue to in my ways and if they have to kick me out that's fine but I'll be baaaaaaaaaaaaac...

[redrooster]

That was the same Hagler that Leonard beat ya know? And Leonard's style fit Mugabi a lot better than Hagler's at that stage of his career.

he also lacked Hagler's chin and once leonard gets in trouble all bets are off.

[jackiebrown]

your kidding right? .. leonard got jabbed to death for 7 rounds agianst hearns... all bets were off though right? .. leonard went toe to toe with duran ..fought his way...his style... yeah he lost a close fight but all bets were off and he just got brutalized right? ..

come on man! .. leonard is a warrior ... as much as i hate him.. hes a warrior nobody can take that away from him

[jackiebrown]

thanks for the welcome man..

[jackiebrown]

right...thanks man.. i mean i could see if the man was notorious for going down and what not ...but we're talking about the same man who went head to head with the best ..

rooster ...your crazy buddy ..

[redrooster]

right...thanks man.. i mean i could see if the man was notorious for going down and what not ...but we're talking about the same man who went head to head with the best ..

rooster ...your crazy buddy ..

Crazy as a fox. Don't mind Sweet Pea. We sometimes dissagree but that's nothing new. And Crosstrainer is a knowledgable guy but more into the barenuckle era if I'm not mistaken.

You'll find out who the more knowledgable posters here are in time.

Whatever you do, don't go to the lounge section. It's full of teenagers and littered with trashy, pubescent topics. In it you'll find articles like "my dick is hard-what do I do now?"

Just stay away from that shit, listen to Rooster and you'll get go far and even telling yourself "I never knew such things existed"

I'll see you later, it's time for my nap

[jackiebrown]

im into the old school too man.. just because im new on here dont mean i dont know shit about fights

i love jake lamotta...i love max baer guy was craazy ... jack dempsy...joe gans
.. hell even tony galanto is fun to me ..
theres another dude with the name lew .. but i forget his last name...i read about him .. he seems fun as shit!

[jackiebrown]

yeaaah! ... crazy ass lightweight

[achillesthegreat]

How does Achilles the dumb, who never knew anything until I taught him thru much pain and humiliation, arrive at Leonard beating John the beast "no problem"?


God knows how you come up with ANYTHING you say. It is frighteningly moronic but you still have the audacity to think it and say it.

[JohnThomas1]

This is the first dialogue we've had on Leonard, and I'm sure you've heard it before, but please hear me out anyway.

Your views have some merit, but I think you're biased against Leonard. This is not an insult or criticism, but simply a helpful suggestion. With any fighter, this much emphasis on his negative traits--especially when most boxing fans disagree with you--would tend to indicate that you are too extreme in your position. One or two qualifiers and asterisks in Leonard's resume would be reasonable, but the number of qualifiers you suggest would mean that Leonard was the luckiest man on earth.

Perhaps if you softened it somewhat, more would heed your comments.

That's a helluva nice way to tell someone they are absolutely totally full of shit! Kudo's!

:lol:

[achillesthegreat]

That's a helluva nice way to tell someone they are absolutely totally full of shit! Kudo's!

:lol:
:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Of course Leonard is a class above here, might even get a late stoppage.

[Outboxer]

CT, as usual, hit the nail on the head with his post.

[redrooster]

God knows how you come up with ANYTHING you say. It is frighteningly moronic but you still have the audacity to think it and say it.

Just stay quiet like a good boy and take your lumps!

[enquirer]

Leonards chin and recuperative powers were great. He took big punches from duran,hearns,hagler and lalonde yet recovered to fight back very strongly...He took three tremendous consecutive right hands from hearns in their second fight and got knocked down for the second time,yet one round later he was kicking tommy all around the ring in an effort to stop him....With hindsight loooking back at rays career the man had an iron chin,great reflexes,defense and recuperative powers,he also had the warrior instinct and the immense will to win...
I think when he went in with dangerous punchers he was at the top of his game and would avoid their flush shots,and even if they landed his attributes ensured he wouldnt be stopped....
Leonard has too much speed,foot movement,stamina and smarts to get beat by mugabi,even in the latter part of rays career he would UD john. In leonards prime he might stop john late in a fifteen rounder at lt middle...
Redrooster,please leonard is the best welter of all time,and an atg head to head at lt middle and possibly middle,frightening thing is we missed rays prime due to the detached retina....If this hadnt have happened ray could have overtaken the orignal sugarman p4p by consensus. (i think he is better p4p anyway,but thats just me.)

[Shake]

This should be fun. Redrooster, who doesn't give Leonard much credit at all and someone who considers him to be better than the original Sugar.

Fighters, to your corners. Ignore me when I say 'break' and don't mind the rules at any time. Box!

[enquirer]

With the passage of time more people are coming to the conclusion that ray was the best welter of all time...Many rank him number two anyway,so its close...
I just feel leonards resume at welter contains four fights against three atgs in benitez,duran twice and hearns,and all of these fighters were at or near their prime and these three had something like 130 wins between them with only one loss (avenged twice,duran v dejesus.) and something like 90 or more kos,add to this his winning the lt middle belt,the hagler win past leonards prime and the further battles with duran,hearns and lalonde at supermiddle/lt heavy....For such a short career an astonishing resume,and range of weights....Also leonard proved he had every intangible against all different styles,boxer, box-puncher,southpaw,pressure fighter and guys bigger than him all at the highest level,and this is all allied to his speed,power,reflexes,ring generalship,chin,warrior mentality,footwork and tremendous will to win...
Dont worry though,i know hed get annihilated in an MMA match or against mike tyson....:hey

[Shake]

Hey, I'm a big Leonard fan. Heck, I'm a fan of every good boxer and simply loved the era he fought in. So many great fighters with diverse and unique styles -- 'Radar' Benitez, cutthroat Duran, lanky Hearns, tough man Hagler and even Mugabi.

But I'll be honest and say he's not quite Ray Robinson. To understand what this man accomplished is to give up looking for someone better. Visualise the fantasy that all we had of Ray Leonard was his second fight with Hearns and onward -- it would be much harder to put him so high all-time welter if all we had to go on was that, right?

Robinson looks like a beast to me, and going by all accounts, there exists no footage of him in his prime. He fought over 300 times and had an amazing winning streak of over 70 fights without a loss against solid opposition -- almost twice as many matches as Ray fought in his career.

I respect your opinion, though, even if I don't share it. I hold Leonard in very high esteem, but just happen to think the world of Robinson.

[enquirer]

Thats fine shake,its just my opinion....I just value quality over quantity,and i feel that robbie only beat one prime atg at welter (gavilan.) and i dont think he faced a puncher like hearns or a skilled animal like duran at welter....If we go strictly by resume then harry greb is the best hands down???? Robbie also got knocked down for nine against artie levine at near welter....I dont know how many great punchers robbie faced at welter or even middle?? Some say a faded graziano was the best puncher robbie faced? Leonard faced hearns twice,with hearns being the no1 or at least no2 hardest hitter of all time at welter.....

[Boro chris]

Redrooster, do you realize you're delusional? You are dead wrong. Your views on Leonard are completely insane. You need therapy.

Thats a very interesting point. Shall I call Redrooster delusional?
Or shall I settle for twat?

[redrooster]

This should be fun. Redrooster, who doesn't give Leonard much credit at all and someone who considers him to be better than the original Sugar.

Fighters, to your corners. Ignore me when I say 'break' and don't mind the rules at any time. Box!

I think I know who this guy is. If I'm right, he's the one my friend invited to ESB and I debated before on another site. He's cool tho and we get along with each other but never agree.

[Shake]

I've actually never been here before, sir. Shake is my first and only account.

[JohnThomas1]

95% of his posts are like that. Like Tyson he´s wasted potential :D

I disagree, only one of them had/has "talent", a pre-req of potential. Hint - it isn't Rooster :lol:

[redrooster]

I've actually never been here before, sir. Shake is my first and only account.

I'm talking about Enquirer. His name looks familiar. I'm going to look at some of his past comments but I'm pretty sure he was just baiting me this time.

[achillesthegreat]

Just stay quiet like a good boy and take your lumps!
You seriously need to see a doctor.

[redrooster]

You seriously need to see a doctor.

Thanks Achilles. i'll work on it.

[enquirer]

There is no baiting going on red rooster,and i have never debated with you on any other forum......
My final words: RAY L=PURE GOLD,if the truth be told......:hat

[redrooster]

There is no baiting going on red rooster,and i have never debated with you on any other forum......
My final words: RAY L=PURE GOLD,if the truth be told......:hat

The only reason I can't go along with you is that Leonard really wasn't that good and should be obvious to all. You're brain washed.

You should be boasting about Roy Jones, not that bum leonard.

There's no debating this.

[enquirer]

By implication then 90% or more of the forum posters are brainwashed because most think ray is a great boxer,as do most historians,magazines and boxers themselves...If you feel im brainwashed,then fine dont debate.......NEXT!!!!!! :hey

[redrooster]

By implication then 90% or more of the forum posters are brainwashed because most think ray is a great boxer,as do most historians,magazines and boxers themselves...If you feel im brainwashed,then fine dont debate.......NEXT!!!!!! :hey

If Ray was so great how come he was floored so much? he only had 36 fights.

And if Ray was half the fighter historians say he was he should have had no problem with Howard and Norris. He should have whipped Hearns n a rematch because all the historians, magazines, and boxers themselves picked him. I don't know anyone who didn't pick glorious leonard to knock out Tommy. Instead, a world wide audience saw Tommy beat him and said Leonard got a gift decision.

Weren't the historians saying Ray would whip Terry without a problem?

Instead it was Terry who whipped Ray no problem. And this time it wasn't even close and Leonard got real sad and depressed and quit because he was embarrassed the same way after Howard embarrassed him

You got a lot of explaining to do and remember, no lying.

[redrooster]

Does a man with an iron chin get floored by someone like Howard?

You're not very good at this are you Enquirer?

[Shake]

It was pretty late in his career, and flukes happen! Heck, I remember De la Hoya being floored early his career in the first round by a man not known as a good puncher. He got up, though, and finished the guy. That's usually what Leonard did -- he got up to win.

[redrooster]

frightening thing is we missed rays prime due to the detached retina....If this hadnt have happened ray could have overtaken the orignal sugarman p4p by consensus. (i think he is better p4p anyway,but thats just me.)

His "injury" didn't keep him out of the ring. He kept himself out of the ring. It's not like you are put in prison or have your license taken from you in the case of Tyson or Ali. The excuse is illegitimate, as much so as Leonard's career.

He came back remember? For Howard. For shot Hagler. For lalonde. For hearns. For Duran. For Lalonde. For Camacho. That's 7 times you brainwashed sap. he just didn't have the nerve to face Hagler on a prime time stage.

he would have come back after the Camacho fight if the outcome hadn't left such a big impact on him (get it?) and taught that dog a lesson he'd never forget-he doesn't belong in the ring unless the opponent is handicapped or walking with a cane.

In the words of Hector Camacho: "this is the last time he comes back to the ring. I guarantee it" putting this prediction up there with Namath's guarantee in SB 3.

[Shake]

I agree he ducked Hagler until he was over the hill.

[redrooster]

It was pretty late in his career, and flukes happen! Heck, I remember De la Hoya being floored early his career in the first round by a man not known as a good puncher. He got up, though, and finished the guy. That's usually what Leonard did -- he got up to win.

No offense Shake but he was only 27 at the time and he had very little wear on him. Of course he finished the guy-he was supposed to! What else can you expect from such a miniscule opponent with 4 losses? But honestly, who expected so much of a problem?

[redrooster]

Shake, remember that my comments are directed at Enquirer who I intend to run off this thread.

[Shake]

Oh, that's fine, I'm just happy discussing Leonard. in-between. You gjust keep doing your running-off thingy, I don't mind. =)

[JohnThomas1]

If Ray was so great how come he was floored so much? he only had 36 fights.

And if Ray was half the fighter historians say he was he should have had no problem with Howard and Norris. He should have whipped Hearns n a rematch because all the historians, magazines, and boxers themselves picked him. I don't know anyone who didn't pick glorious leonard to knock out Tommy. Instead, a world wide audience saw Tommy beat him and said Leonard got a gift decision.

Weren't the historians saying Ray would whip Terry without a problem?

Instead it was Terry who whipped Ray no problem. And this time it wasn't even close and Leonard got real sad and depressed and quit because he was embarrassed the same way after Howard embarrassed him

You got a lot of explaining to do and remember, no lying.

And here you were yesterday defending Sibson at the age of 30 as many are past it then

:lol:

Of course every village idiot needs some serious hypocrite in em

:good

[enquirer]

Red rooster,you couldnt run shit out of your arse even if you had diarrhoea.......
anyway,you said you didnt want to debate and now you do?
I feel you are just trying to get a rise out of me.....
Anyway,up until howard ray had faced major league punchers in duran twice and the biggest welter bomber of all time in hearns and was NEVER off his feet....And those two surely landed hard punches on ray...
The howard knockdown was just a balance knockdown,not even a flash knockdown,no different to toney being kd against jones,yet toney has no chin problems to speak of really...
Against your IDOL marvin (who i repect immensely but i dont inflate him to the status of jesus,nor do i downgrade the guy who beat him,really marvin must be shit if he cant beat ray on your criteria,whether marvin was shot or not,which he wasnt,just past his prime as was ray.)
Ray was not knocked down or even close to it. He was hurt in the fifth,ninth and maybe the twelfth but significantly punched his way out of trouble in the ninth,i havent see many weak chinned fighters who punched their way out of trouble versus a guy like marvin when hurt and still lived to tell the tale,have you?...
Against duran 3 ray was never really hurt or knocked down (though he copped one big right hand in the 11th which put plenty of stitches in his eye.) yet duran had just beaten a huge tough middleweight in barkley in a great fight and knocked him down in the process showing he could still punch at middle,yet ray beat him easily...
Against tommy hearns ray got knocked down by a rejuvenated,motivated,still very hard punching and out for revenge tommy twice...The knockdown in the 11th came courtesy of three consecutive tremendous right hands flush on ray,yet he got up and in the next round almost stopped tommy in a tremendous rally...Not bad for a chinny guy against a guy who knocked out world class light heavies,was the only man to ko duran,and hurt marvin more than anybody else with a single shot.....
Against lalonde ray got knocked down and hurt in the ninth yet he won by brutal KO and showed great heart/skill against a far bigger guy who though not the most skilled in the world was definately a puncher...If ray can the take the flush punches of a lt heavy/super middle i think his chin is sound,especially when his best weight is welter,possibly lt middle....Ray was 160 in that fight versus lalonde who was 168 and probably 175-180 by the time he got in the ring....
Against norris ray showed that he finally had lost his touch (not helped by a two year layoff and going back to 154 after being a middle for a few years.) and got knocked down twice against a sharp,speedy and hard hitting terry norris. However if ray was soo chinny norris would have knocked him out or stopped him,especially given norris punched him on the floor and was dealing with an 'old fighter' well past it....
Finally,the camacho debacle just showed that having five years off and then trying to beat an active and very good fighter in camacho doesnt work,especially when way past your best.....But this loss is up there with alis 'display against holmes/berbick,duran v joppy,tyson v mcbride and such other way past prime performances(note i dont include hagler v leonard in that one,ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....Im sure most are of the opinion that ray would easily beat both norris and camacho in rays' prime years....
I agree ray may have been tough to negotiate with and picked his opponents a little after the hagler fight but he still took on very good fighters and mainly was after big money,big legacy fights....I give him this concession for not fighting the nunns,hills and such like because he was trying to make history and loads of money/fame in only a short space of time as he probably knew he wasnt at his very best and only had a few years or less left in him,he also wasnt a true lt heavy,obviously.... He could have retired after the hagler fight and still been regarded as an atg,hell even before the hagler fight he was regarded as an atg.....
I could go on but im getting a bit bored,and ive said before that if you really believe ray was chinny then hearns,duran and even the marvelous one are crap punchers,cos they all landed hard on him.....
Good day......:bbb :rasta :happy :cool: :patsch :rofl :D :lol: :smoke :rasta :hi: :hat
:deal

[GazOC]

Leonard gets no 'props' for beating a shot Hagler but Leonards loss to Norris is considered enough proof that Leonard couldn't take a punch?

Rooster, you look at Leonards career from crazy and bizarre angles in order to make it fit your existing opinion of Leonard.

[redrooster]

Leonard gets no 'props' for beating a shot Hagler but Leonards loss to Norris is considered enough proof that Leonard couldn't take a punch?

Rooster, you look at Leonards career from crazy and bizarre angles in order to make it fit your existing opinion of Leonard.

Hagler was taking on the Roldan's, The Mugabi's, the Hamsho's the Hearns' and didn't even want to fight no more but leonard was trying to talk him out of not retiring. Big difference from 1982 isn't it?

When Marvin was in his 2nd, 3rd year as champ, Ray wouldn't take a fight with Marvin no matter what but he'd take a fight with Howard until his face met with Howard's fist and he felt his guts turn to jelly then he retired-again!

What was his excuse this time? His eye? he already used that excuse up. :lol:

Besides, Ray couldn't be washed up with only 38 fights. Leonard was as healthy as a kitten for all his later fights so how can Ray be worn out?

Let's not forget Ray was the big favorite yet Norris violated him. That wasn't supposed to happen. Hagler lost a close decision which most observers including myself believe to be one of the biggest injustices done to a champion and we all know in our hearts that Leonard was never deserving of being middleweight champion and he knows it himself because he was too scared to defend it the way he was too scared to face Marvin in his prime. He fared well against a used up fighter but he had the option of ducking out of the sport because he had his "eye" excuse to fall back on which nearly everyone still buys except for me.

Don't listen to the lies of Enquirer. He's looking for every way to excuse Leonard for getting bitch slapped by Norris and even denies that Howard didn't floor him even though no sane person would ever dispute it.

Ray wasn't out of boxing two years-closer to one year but Enquirer never learned how to round his numbers when they taught him in Elementary school.

How could a real man let Norris do what he did to leonard? He stopped putting up a fight after Norris slapped him down in the 2, 3 and like he is known to do just said "maybe if I lay down for him he'll go easy on me. I'll just stop fighting and let him win so I don't get hurt".

We all know how leonard hates getting hit.

[Luigi1985]

SRL would easily beat the overrated Mugabi, John beat only bums until he met Hagler, he had one of the most padded records I ever saw...


SRL UD Mugabi


(12-3 rounds)

[redrooster]

Red rooster,you said you didnt want to debate and now you do?
I feel you are just trying to get a rise out of me.....
Anyway,up until howard ray had faced major league punchers in duran twice

You're thinking of lightweight Duran. A common mistake.

and the biggest welter bomber of all time in hearns and was NEVER off his feet

Hearns was just anemic that night and could have used a couple of hearty meals with a steak and mash potatoes with butter.

The howard knockdown was just a balance knockdown,not even a flash knockdown,no different to toney being kd against jones,yet toney has no chin problems to speak of really...

That's the first I heard of that. I remember hearing two distinct impacts including a hard thud when he hit the canvas and seeing people in the audience laughing because Leonard thought he looked so cool with his shuffle act and then the next moment he winds up on his ass!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Ray was not knocked down or even close to it. He was hurt in the fifth,ninth and maybe the twelfth but significantly punched his way out of trouble in the ninth,i havent see many weak chinned fighters who punched their way out of trouble versus a guy like marvin when hurt and still lived to tell the tale,have you?...

what shot fighter ever floors his opponent? I've only seen it once in the Napoles fight vs. Stracey.


yet duran had just beaten a huge tough middleweight in barkley in a great fight and knocked him down in the process showing he could still punch at middle,yet ray beat him easily...

That's right. I remember nostalgia night. That was leonard's favorite kind of fight but I'll o agree that his legs were in great working condition because of all the running/booing.

Too bad those tactics only work who are ready for retirement instead of someone like Norris :smoke

Against tommy hearns ray got knocked down by a rejuvenated,motivated,still very hard punching and out for revenge tommy twice...The knockdown in the 11th came courtesy of three consecutive tremendous right hands flush on ray,yet he got up and in the next round almost stopped tommy in a tremendous rally...Not bad for a chinny guy against a guy who knocked out world class light heavies,was the only man to ko duran,and hurt marvin more than anybody else with a single shot

SO? James Kinchen didn't go down once. Ray goes down twice and I'm supposed to give him points because of it? :nut

Against lalonde ray got knocked down and hurt in the ninth yet he won by brutal KO and showed great heart/skill against a far bigger guy who though not the most skilled in the world was definately a puncher.

Lalonde didn't even belong in the ring with Ray and you're bragging how Ray survived! :lol: :lol: :lol: You're twisted.

..If ray can the take the flush punches of a lt heavy/super middle i think his chin is sound,especially when his best weight is welter,possibly lt middle....Ray was 160 in that fight versus lalonde who was 168 and probably 175-180 by the time he got in the ring....

Then how come he couldn't handle a punch at 154? You just got done bragging how Ray's chin survived hits from a light heavyweight but he still got floored in both Howard and Norris fights at what you said was his best weight

Against norris ray showed that he finally had lost his touch (not helped by a two year layoff and going back to 154 after being a middle for a few years.) and got knocked down twice against a sharp,speedy and hard hitting terry norris. However if ray was soo chinny norris would have knocked him out or stopped him,especially given norris punched him on the floor and was dealing with an 'old fighter' well past it....

I told you no lying. I felt at some point you were going to try this route. No die hard leonard fan can ever debate me without something extra that doesn't exist, hoping that I'll somehow be easily decieved. I'm not decieved

14 months somehow equals two years?

You can't go back now and change your story after just telling me 154 is his best weight. And you can't try to pretend Leonard didn't have enough time to make weight. It's not as though he was making mandatory defense. Otherwise you just come across as a liar with all the sour grapes.


Finally,the camacho debacle just showed that having five years off and then trying to beat an active and very good fighter in camacho doesnt work,especially when way past your best.....But this loss is up there with alis 'display against holmes/berbick,duran v joppy,tyson v mcbride and such other way past prime performances(note i dont include hagler v leonard in that one,ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....Im sure most are of the opinion that ray would easily beat both norris and camacho in rays' prime years....

I'm sure you would and most likely took the bait as soon as both fights were announced. Not me. I knew leonard wasn't capable of giving Terry a fight and he didn't.

This was going to look like the first hearns fight with leonard falling behind and getting his ears boxed and that he would try to catch Terry in the corner with some flurries but it would fail this time and that Norris wouldn't even freeze up.

How is leonard going to beat a man with reflexes, a man with speed when he can't even beat an old man like Hagler or like Hearns?? Leonard never could win a major fight without controversy.

The fight was in the bag and I made loads of dough at the casino in Bell Gardens, ca., betting everything I had even tho my Dad told me not to. But I'm smarter than him because he didn't follow any sports except baseball.

I wasn't nervous like all the other people that lost their shirts. I even rooted leonard on giving moral support ("don't make it too easy for him leonard!")

you should have been there. It must have been the quietest boxing match I ever attended even tho everyone ther was boozed up. It was quiet like a grave and some bartender got annoyed with me because I was celebrating.

At first I thought it was PMS but soon realized she shitting in her pants because of the money she was losing and was mourning for leonard, blaming the loss because Terry hit him on the canvas like a typical leonard fan would.

She knew who her money was going to :D :D :D

[enquirer]

Well,you are fond of twisting,taking out of context and misquoting!!!!
Hagler was shot? More like he found rays speed hard to deal with....
Your logic is weird.....For instance hearns never got stopped or heavily dropped at above 168 yet would folks say that the punchers he met at welter and middle overall were harder punchers than the lt heavies he faced? Norris knocked down leonard because ray was past it,and norris was a quick and hard puncher... Doesnt mean norris punches harder than hearns,hagler,duran or lalonde.....Why did duran kd barkley and hearns didnt in two fights? Does this make duran a harder puncher than tommy? Hell no.....
Face it,ray has victories over an at or close to peak unbeaten benitez, a one loss avenged twice 72 wins close to peak duran win,a close to peak unbeaten hearns and an unbeaten for 11 years/37 fights/12 consecutive undisputed middle defenses hagler...While i agree marvin wasnt peak,he was rated p4p 1 or 2,had the size advantage and ray was disadvantaged by having one fight in five years and being past his best as well... Not many fighters can boast 4 wins v 4 atgs,even marvin cant match that......:yikes

[JohnThomas1]

Red rooster,you couldnt run shit out of your arse even if you had diarrhoea.......
anyway,you said you didnt want to debate and now you do?
I feel you are just trying to get a rise out of me.....
Anyway,up until howard ray had faced major league punchers in duran twice and the biggest welter bomber of all time in hearns and was NEVER off his feet....And those two surely landed hard punches on ray...
The howard knockdown was just a balance knockdown,not even a flash knockdown,no different to toney being kd against jones,yet toney has no chin problems to speak of really...
Against your IDOL marvin (who i repect immensely but i dont inflate him to the status of jesus,nor do i downgrade the guy who beat him,really marvin must be shit if he cant beat ray on your criteria,whether marvin was shot or not,which he wasnt,just past his prime as was ray.)
Ray was not knocked down or even close to it. He was hurt in the fifth,ninth and maybe the twelfth but significantly punched his way out of trouble in the ninth,i havent see many weak chinned fighters who punched their way out of trouble versus a guy like marvin when hurt and still lived to tell the tale,have you?...
Against duran 3 ray was never really hurt or knocked down (though he copped one big right hand in the 11th which put plenty of stitches in his eye.) yet duran had just beaten a huge tough middleweight in barkley in a great fight and knocked him down in the process showing he could still punch at middle,yet ray beat him easily...
Against tommy hearns ray got knocked down by a rejuvenated,motivated,still very hard punching and out for revenge tommy twice...The knockdown in the 11th came courtesy of three consecutive tremendous right hands flush on ray,yet he got up and in the next round almost stopped tommy in a tremendous rally...Not bad for a chinny guy against a guy who knocked out world class light heavies,was the only man to ko duran,and hurt marvin more than anybody else with a single shot.....
Against lalonde ray got knocked down and hurt in the ninth yet he won by brutal KO and showed great heart/skill against a far bigger guy who though not the most skilled in the world was definately a puncher...If ray can the take the flush punches of a lt heavy/super middle i think his chin is sound,especially when his best weight is welter,possibly lt middle....Ray was 160 in that fight versus lalonde who was 168 and probably 175-180 by the time he got in the ring....
Against norris ray showed that he finally had lost his touch (not helped by a two year layoff and going back to 154 after being a middle for a few years.) and got knocked down twice against a sharp,speedy and hard hitting terry norris. However if ray was soo chinny norris would have knocked him out or stopped him,especially given norris punched him on the floor and was dealing with an 'old fighter' well past it....
Finally,the camacho debacle just showed that having five years off and then trying to beat an active and very good fighter in camacho doesnt work,especially when way past your best.....But this loss is up there with alis 'display against holmes/berbick,duran v joppy,tyson v mcbride and such other way past prime performances(note i dont include hagler v leonard in that one,ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....Im sure most are of the opinion that ray would easily beat both norris and camacho in rays' prime years....
I agree ray may have been tough to negotiate with and picked his opponents a little after the hagler fight but he still took on very good fighters and mainly was after big money,big legacy fights....I give him this concession for not fighting the nunns,hills and such like because he was trying to make history and loads of money/fame in only a short space of time as he probably knew he wasnt at his very best and only had a few years or less left in him,he also wasnt a true lt heavy,obviously.... He could have retired after the hagler fight and still been regarded as an atg,hell even before the hagler fight he was regarded as an atg.....
I could go on but im getting a bit bored,and ive said before that if you really believe ray was chinny then hearns,duran and even the marvelous one are crap punchers,cos they all landed hard on him.....
Good day......:bbb :rasta :happy :cool: :patsch :rofl :D :lol: :smoke :rasta :hi: :hat
:deal

This is one of the most compelling ass whuppings of all time. Kudo's!

[JohnThomas1]

Besides, Ray couldn't be washed up with only 38 fights. Leonard was as healthy as a kitten for all his later fights so how can Ray be worn out?


Yet 2 days ago you tell us

It took Sibbo six years like Hagler, to reach full potential and earn that #1 status to get a title shot. From what I know, the fire went out after the Don Lee fight and like most of the other contenders, became a club fighter before age 30.

:rofl

What a hypocritical troll you are :lol:

You also tell us Camacho was washed up when he fought Haugen, well guess what his magic number was?

38 fights :lol:

Need i remind he never had gruelling struggles against the likes of Duran, Hearn's, Hagler and co?

:nut

[JohnThomas1]

Hearns was just anemic that night and could have used a couple of hearty meals with a steak and mash potatoes with butter.


Like Duran claimed to have had before No Mas?

:lol:

[redrooster]

Well,you are fond of twisting,taking out of context and misquoting!!!!
Hagler was shot? More like he found rays speed hard to deal with....
Your logic is weird.....For instance hearns never got stopped or heavily dropped at above 168 yet would folks say that the punchers he met at welter and middle overall were harder punchers than the lt heavies he faced? Norris knocked down leonard because ray was past it,and norris was a quick and hard puncher... Doesnt mean norris punches harder than hearns,hagler,duran or lalonde.....Why did duran kd barkley and hearns didnt in two fights? Does this make duran a harder puncher than tommy? Hell no.....
Face it,ray has victories over an at or close to peak unbeaten benitez, a one loss avenged twice 72 wins close to peak duran win,a close to peak unbeaten hearns and an unbeaten for 11 years/37 fights/12 consecutive undisputed middle defenses hagler...While i agree marvin wasnt peak,he was rated p4p 1 or 2,had the size advantage and ray was disadvantaged by having one fight in five years and being past his best as well... Not many fighters can boast 4 wins v 4 atgs,even marvin cant match that......:yikes

he can't boast he was ko'd by Hector Camacho either.

Marvin can't say he was outboxed for 14 rounds by Hearns.

marvin can't say he was beat up in a fight like Leonard or that he was shut out on the scorecards-I thought Norris should have been given the title "sugar" instead of Leonard.



When you mention Leonard, fans think the name Benny.
When you say sugar, fans think Robinson.

[redrooster]

Yet 2 days ago you tell us



:rofl

What a hypocritical troll you are :lol:

You also tell us Camacho was washed up when he fought Haugen, well guess what his magic number was?

38 fights :lol:

Need i remind he never had gruelling struggles against the likes of Duran, Hearn's, Hagler and co?

:nut


That's typical for middleweights because traditionally, it's extra competitive. The welters have no such competition. The typical middleweight becomes a clubfighter by age 30. So says Barry Tompkins.

Unless of course, the division is as weak as it was during the Hopkins era. Then you can stay on top for as long as you like even without a punch.

[enquirer]

Thanks JT.
Red rooster,JT has pointed out some double standards on your side yet you come back with the welters not being competitive? Come on benitez,duran twice and hearns is as competitive as it comes,not forgetting the lt middle title for ray....
Haglers most competitive fights as a middle champion (ironically enough!:smoke .) comes from two welters,a lt middle and a lightweight....(leonard,hearns,mugabi and duran.) Guess them middles werent as competitive as you though hey?:yikes :hey
And by your same logic leonard from 30 onwards (starting from the hagler fight where he was nearly 31 in fact.) fought all of his fights at middle ( except for norris at 154.) and one above middle....So by the time he met norris and especially camacho the tough competition at middle had worn him out.....Just like your man sibson......whats good for the goose is good for the gander hey......
* 'tongue firmly in his cheek'*
Historically the lighter weights (not necessarily middles.)have tended to fade quicker,but i suppose barry 'bible' tompkinson knows best...
Oh i just remembered didnt leonard face geraldo at middle? There you go,that fight put a 'middleweight' type strain on ray and helped to shorten his career and turn him into a club fighter by the time he met norris.....:rasta
I really dont know whether you believe the stuff you write,or you are gazing at the contents of haglers intestines....
Are you religious as i feel you have a strong belief in the illogical,unproven,delusional and supernatural......?
I think i know now how roy jones felt in the second round against bryan brannont,come on ref,put this guy out of his misery.........:bbb :patsch :nono :think :smoke

[redrooster]

Thanks JT.
Red rooster,JT has pointed out some double standards on your side yet you come back with the welters not being competitive? Come on benitez,duran twice and hearns is as competitive as it comes,not forgetting the lt middle title for ray....
Haglers most competitive fights as a middle champion (ironically enough!:smoke .) comes from two welters,a lt middle and a lightweight....(leonard,hearns,mugabi and duran.) Guess them middles werent as competitive as you though hey?:yikes :hey
And by your same logic leonard from 30 onwards (starting from the hagler fight where he was nearly 31 in fact.) fought all of his fights at middle ( except for norris at 154.) and one above middle....So by the time he met norris and especially camacho the tough competition at middle had worn him out.....Just like your man sibson......whats good for the goose is good for the gander hey......
* 'tongue firmly in his cheek'*
Historically the lighter weights (not necessarily middles.)have tended to fade quicker,but i suppose barry 'bible' tompkinson knows best...
Oh i just remembered didnt leonard face geraldo at middle? There you go,that fight put a 'middleweight' type strain on ray and helped to shorten his career and turn him into a club fighter by the time he met norris.....:rasta
I really dont know whether you believe the stuff you write,or you are gazing at the contents of haglers intestines....
Are you religious as i feel you have a strong belief in the illogical,unproven,delusional and supernatural......?
I think i know now how roy jones felt in the second round against bryan brannont,come on ref,put this guy out of his misery.........:bbb :patsch :nono :think :smoke

I don't recall Monroe or Watts as welters or light middles. :!:

Hagler actually had a tougher fight with Vito and Roldan than he did with Duran and Leonard so WTF are you talking about? Roldan is the same guy Leonard walked up to before the fight and said "thanks for softening him up for me buddy" :lol:

Did I forget to mention Hagler never lost to Hearns like Leonard did?

I think I forgot to mention Hagler never lost to Duran. Why didn't you remind me? :huh

Really, do you believe all the garbage you write? How does leonard suddenly "get old" after you just glorified everything he did in Leonard- Duran 3?

We all saw how well his legs were in perfect working condition. Over the hill fighters do not move non stop for 12 rounds with no sign of fatigue. He didn't even show signs of slowing.

I even caught you in a lie claiming his layoff was 2 years but you turn around and say I twist things around. A typical leonard fanatic who can't face the truth their man lost without the protective management of Dundee and the fact he doesn't know how to handle himself anyone except for tailor made plodders. Which took another 5 years for Hagler to do.

But put him in with the first fighter who can move for 12 rounds himself with reflexes and handspeed and he goes from dominant to dominated. That's why he couldn't get off and the only time he did is in the first round when Terry crowded him along the ropes. He couldn't @#*% to Norris except lie down on the canvas and cower in every corner looking for cover. What a sap!

Barry Tompkins hit it on the head at the start of the Scypion fight complimenting Hagler on retaining his elite skills, skills that Leonard wanted no part of, as Hagler hit the age of 30.

I listen to much of what Tompkins and Merchant say because they're historians like myself.

Clancy and Ryan were good too because they were often very accurate with their assessment of fighters.

Gil's assessment of Hearns was on target about the 145 he came in at and how it affected his endurance. That turned out to be true because as we all know he was well ahead when he suddenly gave out.

And then there's the commentary from Ryan during round 6 noting Leonard's comments

Quote: "ray said Marvin lost a lot of speed and was counting on the slowness of Hagler"

Let's see how you twist that around.

It's good you're making friends with John Thomas. He's cheering for you because he knows you'll be needing :D in your time of crisis.

[enquirer]

Leonard never lost to hearns,he beat duran in the rematch and the rubber.....I think you failed to see some of my tongue in cheek comments......
You think the leonard and duran fights werent tough or competitive? WOW,especially since he lost the former...Why did marvin allow a lightweight to go 15 tough rounds with him? (im just playing devils advocate,duran was one of the truely great fighters at several weights,i just want to see your thought processes on this one.)
Also you seem to be overlooking a crucial fact (or three!) in that its not normal for a welter to challenge an atg 13 pounds heavier just like that,especially when you have an eye injury and loads of inactivity.....But finally ray did it and shocked the world.....
I respect marvin immensely,arguablyy the best middle of all time and definately near the very top of the pile....However,it is allowed to like other fighters who incidentally beat him,its also within the marquees of queensbury rules to respect,rate and to give atg staus to BOTH marvin hagler and ray leonard.......And thats by resume,film and the opinions of unbiased folks.....

[redrooster]

This is one of the most compelling ass whuppings of all time. Kudo's!

And I'm just warming up!

[JohnThomas1]

That's typical for middleweights because traditionally, it's extra competitive. The welters have no such competition. The typical middleweight becomes a clubfighter by age 30. So says Barry Tompkins.


I notice you run like hell from my exposure, ignorance is still bliss.

Ok, well on the above

Leonard's top 3 "competitors" were Duran, Hearns and Benitez. Lets see you name Sibson's top 3 so we can see for ourselves why Sibbo is given a leave pass at the age of 30 and Leonard isn't.

[JohnThomas1]

And I'm just warming up!

You're like the old faded warrior who just doesn't know when to give up hahaha

:!: *Cut me, Mick* <------- Rooster

[redrooster]

You're like the old faded warrior who just doesn't know when to give up hahaha

:!: *Cut me, Mick* <------- Rooster

I was just warming up but enquirer cut out after 1 day like the rest. Wimp.

[JohnThomas1]

I was just warming up but enquirer cut out after 1 day like the rest. Wimp.

Last i looked he had the last reply, and you still haven't answered

:lol:

[enquirer]

Rooster,your like gene fullmer asking his corner why is robinson jumping up and down in between rounds?.....'The fights over kid,you got knocked out'......:rasta :hi: :happy :bbb :cool: :nut :rofl :lol: :D :patsch :deal :bbb :thumbsup :hat :fire :yikes :nono
Im back in the gym training for my next bout and your in the ring still wondering where everyone has gone.....'Why is the arena empty mommy?!!!!':patsch