Kid Gavilan .Vs. Thomas Hearns

[la-califa]

This would be a great Boxing match at 147 Lbs. If Hearns could not Kayo the steel chinned Gavilan. Could he Box his way to victory? 15 Rounds.

[Sweet Pea]

I'll take Hearns by Decision in a very intriguing styles matchup. I just don't feel Gavilan has the particular tools needed(which is saying something, as he's one of the most versatile fighters there has been) to take out Hearns, and he ain't out-boxing him.

[lfsdan]

Really difficult matchup to predict. I'm going go with a Hearns UD, but it would be close. I don't believe Gavilan had enough power to hurt Hearns but there is always the possibility Hearns could hurt virtually any welterweight; even someone with the whiskers of Gavilan. No one is in for an easy night against the cuban hawk. What a great fight this would have been.

[Russell]

I don't think there's such a thing as a steel chin against Thomas Hearn's at welterweight.

[JohnThomas1]

Hearns by decision, but if anyone has a chance of stopping the durable Gavilan it might be Hearns.

[dpw417]

Super tough match-up to try and make a pick...Gavilan's record for quality and longevity is testament in itself to his greatness. Hearns at 147 was phenomenal, great boxer...great puncher. If Williams and Basilio could knock Gavilan down, Hearns problably could and would...But I don't think Gavilan would be down for long.
If the fight is fought at long range, Hearns is your clear winner. Can Gavilan press Hearns to get in closer? Robinson said Gavilan was the toughest and best opponent he ever faced. He said that he hit Gavilan with his hardest punch and the Keed came back at him harder than ever.
Gavilan is not a hard hitter, but he is fast and furious fighter...if you get hit enough times it does get more then your attention.
I like Gavilan to press Hearns into a closer range affair and take a decision in a great fight.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Russell
I don't think there's such a thing as a steel chin against Thomas Hearn's at welterweight.
There is, and his name is Kid Gavilan.

[Russell]

There is, and his name is Kid Gavilan.

Really think his chin was that good?

Where do you rank it all time then?

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Russell
Really think his chin was that good?

Where do you rank it all time then?
Has to be amongst the top 10 all-time.

He went 25 rounds with peak Welterweight Ray Robinson and was never dropped, and was never stopped in nearly 150 pro fights and only down two or three times. Plus, he was a brilliant and versatile fighter, so there is no way Tommy (or any other welterweight) is stopping him IMO.

[Sonny Carson]

I don't think there's such a thing as a steel chin against Thomas Hearn's at welterweight.
Ray Leonard says different.

[Russell]

Ray Leonard says different.

What, the guy who got knocked down twice once his speed and reflexes slowed down against Hearn's? :lol:

Not to mention Hearn's destroying his eye in their first match and effectively ending his career.

[teeto]

I think people do overrate Hearns personally in terms of h2h, not that i underrate him, and in this case, he can win imo. This bout will most definitely go to the trenches by my reckoning, and an on song Gavilan could be relentless as they come, i think Gavilan is more skilled in terms of infighting and combination hitting, but he wont stop Tommy imo, not the puncher for it, when the bout is a boxing match, which it will be at times, Tommy can get the upper hand, better boxer i think, but that is the area where i believe people overrate him, his defence was not great, and apart from a few times, he was an offensive minded boxer, not the mover most brand him as, in that light the speed of Gavilan together with a good eye for finding precise shots means he can do the scoriing here and get a decision if on song.

I'll take Tommy, but this can go the other way, i believe that.

[Sweet Pea]

What, the guy who got knocked down twice once his speed and reflexes slowed down against Hearn's? :lol:Yes, because Leonard was relying on his reflexes and speed rather than his durability and perseverence in their first fight.:roll:


Not to mention Hearn's destroying his eye in their first match and effectively ending his career.
I must've imagined all of his success post-Hearns. And I clearly didn't take into account what a damaged eye has to do with having a strong chin.

[McGrain]

I think people do overrate Hearns personally in terms of h2h, not that i underrate him, and in this case, he can win imo. This bout will most definitely go to the trenches by my reckoning, and an on song Gavilan could be relentless as they come, i think Gavilan is more skilled in terms of infighting and combination hitting, but he wont stop Tommy imo, not the puncher for it, when the bout is a boxing match, which it will be at times, Tommy can get the upper hand, better boxer i think, but that is the area where i believe people overrate him, his defence was not great, and apart from a few times, he was an offensive minded boxer, not the mover most brand him as, in that light the speed of Gavilan together with a good eye for finding precise shots means he can do the scoriing here and get a decision if on song.

I'll take Tommy, but this can go the other way, i believe that.

Good post. One thing - Hearns is overated h2h but you think he can beat Gavilian? Not sure both of these things can be true!

[Stonehands89]

Gavilan should be expected to survive Hearns' shots. It's a matter of probability, not certainty, but it was said that Robinson hit Gavilan with one of the best rights he ever threw and the Kid didn't blink and didn't stop punching. That's downright Hagler-esque. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt based on that and based on the fact that he was never stopped in over 140 fights.

Hearns and Gavilan would be a serious boxing match that would erupt often into exchanges. Gavilan's looping shots would be problematic for Hearns because they were sneaky and well-suited for tall lanky guys. However, Hearns would do well both outside and in the exchanges -and may shock Gavilan with that power... but I like Gavilan's style, will, experience, and especially his stamina here.

I'd expect him to be coming on at the end of a fifteen rounder against a tiring Hearns to take a close decision.

[Russell]

Yes, because Leonard was relying on his reflexes and speed rather than his durability and perseverence in their first fight.:roll:

I must've imagined all of his success post-Hearns. And I clearly didn't take into account what a damaged eye has to do with having a strong chin.

So you're telling me Leonard's chin is what kept him in the first fight? As opposed to movement, speed and amazing reflexes?

Once they went and he slowed down and was hitwith the shots Hearn's knocked him down twice.

So yes, obviously his chin wasn't as good as his speed and reflexes. Who in the fuck thinks Leonard's chin is Hagler'esque anyway? He never took Hearn's shots the way Hagler did.

[tommy the hat]

I would pick Kid Gavilan by a close decision. I think Hearns would start out strong and win some of the earlier rounds, but as the fight wore on he would tire. The reasons being, like mentioned before, Kid Gavilan had a granite chin, and Hearns would be forced to go 15 rounds. Also Kid Gavilan could stand right in front of a guy and make him miss all night long, which would fatigue Hearns. Gavilan's defensive game compares to another Hearns victim, Wilfred Benitez, but Gavilan was better than Benitez. More durable and had better conditioning and stamina, and in my opinion, better power.

[Sweet Pea]

So you're telling me Leonard's chin is what kept him in the first fight? As opposed to movement, speed and amazing reflexes?

Once they went and he slowed down and was hitwith the shots Hearn's knocked him down twice.

So yes, obviously his chin wasn't as good as his speed and reflexes. Who in the fuck thinks Leonard's chin is Hagler'esque anyway? He never took Hearn's shots the way Hagler did.He was hit often and hard against Hearns in their first fight. Why not actually watch it?

[Russell]

Saw it years ago.

Leonard had a good chin, but I think it's ridiculous to say it was a greater asset then his speed and reflexes, among other things.

[Sonny Carson]

What, the guy who got knocked down twice once his speed and reflexes slowed down against Hearn's? :lol:

Not to mention Hearn's destroying his eye in their first match and effectively ending his career.
The fight your talkin about he got knocked down twice in was at Middleweight. And yeah he cut Ray in the first fight but he didn't come close to stoppin him. I'm more of a Hearns fan than Leonard fan and I can tell you Leonard show'd that first fight that someobdy could stand up to Hearns punches.

[Sweet Pea]

Yeah, he never got KD'd in the first fight. The only one that was ever hurt was Hearns on two occasions.

[he grant]

Kid by decision over 15 ...

[Holmes' Jab]

Kid: narrow UD.

[teeto]

Good post. One thing - Hearns is overated h2h but you think he can beat Gavilian? Not sure both of these things can be true!
I know, how much did i contradict myself there???!

I think i was just trying to emphasise (spellcheck??) the point that i think people overrate him as a boxer more than anything else, just a stylistic thing on the subject of this thread though, i could take either man, but i see them fighting offensively throughout a large part of what will be ultimately be deciding this one, and i just may think Tommy can edge that area, not too sure though

[TommyV]

I take Hearns via a close decision.

[Sweet Pea]

I think i was just trying to emphasise (spellcheck??) the point that i think people overrate him as a boxer more than anything elseHow though? Is there any WW you think would be capable of outboxing him?

[la-califa]

Yeah, he never got KD'd in the first fight. The only one that was ever hurt was Hearns on two occasions. Come to think of it, I don't seem to recall Leonard ever seriously being hurt in his Prime Years?

[teeto]

How though? Is there any WW you think would be capable of outboxing him?
I'd pick Napoles over him more or less immediately in terms of ability in that area, just that Napoles being only naturally almost a lightweight means Hearns could likely get the better there. Sounds like excuses though this from me you might say. Tommy was outboxing Leonard, for the most part it was offensive boxing though, which is fine, i just need to re-phrase my statement here sorry, the area i bleieve Tommy gets overrated is as a mover and a sort of wizard some will have you believe he is, i feel his defense is lacking quite a bit and he's beatable at the top level in that mode. I know it sounds as though its getting old, but i think Robinson would have as good a chance as any as outboxing him, Robinson's jab might not have looked brilliant, but was so effective, he could shut people out with it, and i believe his footwork was technically better than Hearns'. Im not totally of the thinking that Robinson would HAVE to go on the offensive after being outshot at long range to win the bout, though i understand the reasons that provoke such thought and in honesty its a likely scenario, but not close to a foregone conclusion imo.

I suppose Gavilan would have as good a chance as any at attempting the outboxing of Hearns, but with two top tier guys (of which Gavilan would be the greater 147 pounder), its close and tight, but i still think the fighting and offensive stuff will sort this one moreso than any other aspect of it. Also, Burley deserves much thought here, think of the reach and the crafty angles, head movement etc.

I do rate Hearns very highly h2h, and a top tier boxer no doubt, but some (not meaning you) act like he was of the wizard cloth, not by my reckoning by a long way though

[teeto]

I must go now, Anfield awaits! Been too long since ive been!

(most American posters might not know what im talking about!)

I'll be posting later anyway!

[Sweet Pea]

I don't think Robinson would have a prayer from long range to be honest, and Napoles is too small to outbox him, though not too small IMO to beat him.

[teeto]

I knew your thoughts on Robinson's long range battle with Hearns, i think its much closer than that, but most likely the scenario is the one that would play out ultimately i must say.

[natonic]

Hearns didn't land a lot of bombs in the first fight, but there were enough to certify the heart and chin of Leonard. The 2nd fight was at 168. It's apples and oranges. Donnie Lalonde knocked Leonard down at 168. Leonard was a welterweight, period. He had some success at higher weights because of his exceptional skill and heart. Hearns had the frame to carry the weight and was a much bigger man than Leonard in the 2nd fight.

Back to the thread. I rate Hearns very highly H2H at Wleterweight. I do think Gavilan is one of the few guys who could take a shot from Hearns and impose his will and style on the fight. I think it's super close. I'd give Gavilan a close decision. I think experience would come in to play also.

[Sweet Pea]

That is completely false. Punches were sparsely landing for both men for the majority of the fight with Ray eventually overwhelming Hearns late after hurting him as they would (as Tommy always eventually) trade.He wasn't landing clean shots off the chin, but he was definitely landing, and often. Leonard went completely against his style by coming forward and looking to get in no matter what the costs, and the costs were a lot of punishment from Hearns. He definitely took a good amount of punishment in the fight, as shown by his face afterwards.