Hearns vs. Sibson

[laxpdx]

This would be a good one........

[redrooster]

Great matchup Laxpdx. You always did know how to pick them.

In my opinion, no one but peak Hagler gets by Sibbo and definitely softened him up. Sibbo was a short middleweight but look how well he was doing aginst power hitter/switch hitter Dangerous Don Lee. What incredible power!

Tony barely touched him when Don hit the deck early and got the better of him whenever he was fighting in the orthodox stance but didn't know how to deal with him when he turned southpaw.

Then he crucified the favored John Collins in two. His jab was irresistible, driving it into the 6 foot Collins in twos and threes. His body work incomparable. You could see John holding his ribs on the way down to the canvas. Shades of Pipino Cuevas!

Once I get my DVD direct machine from Sony, I'm throwing this one onto Youtube so that viewers can witness what fighting's about.

Sibbo also defeated the 6-2" Davison, the top contender, in 12.

So Sibbo can deal with the height and power and was probably stronger than prime Tommy.

Tony expertly slips under Tommy's jab and right hand and dominates on the inside forcing Tommy to fight his fight. Sibbo wins after round 5 or 6. It's Tony's fight to win by knockout. No sweat!

[TBooze]

This would be a good one........

If you want another Hearns highlight right hand KO;)

Hearns KO3

[bumdujour]

hearns cuts him with the jab, softens him to the body. sibbo can only do this with a lucky shot.
he may wobble hearns once or twice, but by round six sibson is flat on his face counting sheep.

[redrooster]

As I said in an earlier thread, it's all about styles and Tommy has always had problems with punchers ie; Roldan, Barkley, Hagler.

Even Doug Dewitt, was tough but not very good, had no problem taking him the distance. Doug was never close to being a top ranked middleweight but connected when ever he liked. The jab of Hearns did not stop him either.

Likewise with James Kinchen. Kinchen wasn't nearly as power laden as Sibbo but a more damaging hitter than Bernard Hopkins, put him on the canvas and came very close to winning on points. More importantly, he softened Tommy up for Ray Leonard.

Roldan had him within a punch or two from a knockout but let him off the hook. And Barkley actually knocked him out. Tommy couldn't stop him and there's no reason to think that Sibson, a much better middleweight, wouldn't do the same.

[la-califa]

Sibson actually was a very well schooled fighter. He would soak up the blows of Hearns & crowd him on the inside. His boxing technique would carry the action & Sibson would outwork Hearns to a UD in 12. But at Jr. Middle. Hearns would have much more movement & power. & Hearns would most likely win by a Decision. For some reason Middleweight was Hearns' cutoff He was noticably slower & felt the opponents punches more.

[Executioner]

Great matchup Laxpdx. You always did know how to pick them.

In my opinion, no one but peak Hagler gets by Sibbo and definitely softened him up. Sibbo was a short middleweight but look how well he was doing aginst power hitter/switch hitter Dangerous Don Lee. What incredible power!

Tony barely touched him when Don hit the deck early and got the better of him whenever he was fighting in the orthodox stance but didn't know how to deal with him when he turned southpaw.

Then he crucified the favored John Collins in two. His jab was irresistible, driving it into the 6 foot Collins in twos and threes. His body work incomparable. You could see John holding his ribs on the way down to the canvas. Shades of Pipino Cuevas!

Once I get my DVD direct machine from Sony, I'm throwing this one onto Youtube so that viewers can witness what fighting's about.

Sibbo also defeated the 6-2" Davison, the top contender, in 12.

So Sibbo can deal with the height and power and was probably stronger than prime Tommy.

Tony expertly slips under Tommy's jab and right hand and dominates on the inside forcing Tommy to fight his fight. Sibbo wins after round 5 or 6. It's Tony's fight to win by knockout. No sweat!

You overrate ALL Hagler's opponents with posts like this.

[redrooster]

You overrate ALL Hagler's opponents with posts like this.

Hagler's a legend and the greatest middleweight ever so how can I be overrating his opponents? I was there bro while it all went down. Even flew across the country to watch this legend in the making fight at MSG in '84 for the Hamsho rematch.

Sibbo was the real deal. Tommy would not knock him out because Sibbo could take a huge punch if he had to. Tony had to be that good because he whipped top contender Davison who was 6-2 and stronger than Tommy.

he just got under the long arms of Dwight's no problem and punished him non stop head and body all night long. Sibbo would prove too energetic for Tommy.

Was he really as I good as I say? yes, and even more.

Even Hagler couldn't afford to slug with him early because he was too dangeous an opponent. Hagler had plenty of legs left on him so he used every tool, every option available to him.

You want to see options, watch Hagler-Sibson. Want to know how to box a puncher, watch Hagler-Sibson. Want to see adaptability, watch Hagler-Sibson.

[JohnThomas1]

Tommy by KO here. Sibbo was a tough blue collar fighter with great courage but he's a bit outclassed in this one. Hearn's in 5 or less with the provision of being careful of Sibson's excellent left hook.

[laxpdx]

What about Sibbo vs. Ayala? Rooster, I remember a while back you matched these two up in a nonchampionship fight, and had Sibbo winning on points. Do you think the result would be the same in a championship bout?

This would be a classic, gritty MW war, with more than its share of blood and broken bones.

[redrooster]

Tommy by KO here. Sibbo was a tough blue collar fighter with great courage but he's a bit outclassed in this one. Hearn's in 5 or less with the provision of being careful of Sibson's excellent left hook.

What do you mean "blue collar"? You don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Is that supposed to be a compliment?

Blue collar is better suited for guys like Hopkins with average power who have no choice but to become more industrious to make up for their deficiencies.

Tony's jab was piston like, break your nose punch. Sibbo was actually a converted southpaw but in addition, had a great sneak right hand that travelled faster than most left jabs. And once on the inside, you can consider the fight to be pretty much over.

And he wouldn't stop at 2 or 3 good shots at one time to rest. Tony was different. He didn't stop plugging away until the opponent was out of action.

So you can't say Tony would be outclassed when he's got most of the advantages. Tommy would be hard pressed to get past five rounds because he didn't have the strength or endurance to last with Tony.

The only catagory that can be considered to be an advantage was his height but that wouldn't bother Tony as he was trained by one of the best and be well prepared as he was for Davison, Collins, and Minter-all tall for middleweights.

Sibbo would hurt his ribs even worse than marvin or Ray. He was expert at getting inside taller opponents and working the ribs. He even made it look easy.

Tommy always had trouble with strong, powerhouse type middleweights but a matchup with Sibbo is worse because he had so many tools.

[redrooster]

What about Sibbo vs. Ayala? Rooster, I remember a while back you matched these two up in a nonchampionship fight, and had Sibbo winning on points. Do you think the result would be the same in a championship bout?

This would be a classic, gritty MW war, with more than its share of blood and broken bones.

I've often wondered that myself back when Ayala was still in action. How he would do with the top middleweights?

The reason for this is that he was trained by Duva himself and Lou was making a practice of risking his best fighters with some of the better middleweights. Sometimes it worked and other times it didn't.

Take for example James Hard rock Green. He bested Scypion in one of 1982' early upsets. Green was starting to make waves even in the middleweight division and seemed to be a future threat.

Then his future changed the day he met up with Animal Frank Fletcher.

In one of my favorite all time battles, the animal lived up to his nickname when he came up for the 6th round with unbridled ferocity.

It was literally raining punches in the ring and had Green cowering in fear, the victim of at least 50 unanswered blows.

Then you have the case of Alex Ramos who in the words of World Boxing was "hitting with the kind of results that would soon concern Hagler himself".

It was sad to see but his career didn't come out as rosie as it had on paper. Alex met with too many ups and downs. He was talented and had only minor flaws in his style, but his chin could not endure the shock of a sudden jolt. It was a major weakness that did him in.

Duva would move his biggest player and best fighter, Bobby Czyz, in with one of the top contenders. I thought it was a good move actually. A smart move because Bobby had no problems whipping people outside the top ten--Robbie Sims, Bobby Coolidge among others, so there was no reason to think he wouldn't be able to compete with the better contenders.

hamsho came off the Hagler slaughter but performed valiantly in the Parker rematch. I believe Bobby was favored but hamsho roughed him up and intimidated him and made him go in a shell the way Roy Jones made fighters go in a shell.

So as you can see, the contenders of that day were extremely successful against opposition that was supposedly superior. In effect, fans and even the best of trainers have been guilty of underestimating them.

Sibbo was one of the more dangerous contenders. I have studied Sibbo extensively in the early 80's I wish I had more film of him to see but all i have is 5 films of him during his prime. But even that's enough for me to confirm his greatness.

His hand speed was vastly underrated. Even though he was a white boy, I seen white boys who were really fast with their hands like Robin Blake and Czyz, but they're rare. But then, Sibbo was a rare specimen.

Sibbo would not be afraid of TA, that's for sure. marvin just made him look bad but that was usually the case with most fighters so I just threw that out.

At the stage he faced off with Hagler I have to go with Sibbo because his defense was better when compared with Ayala considering the way he caught leather in the Steve Gregory fight.

He was also quicker at getting off shots. But remember I said, "at this stage" knowing full well that Ayala was more a prospect than contender. Remember i was the one who labelled him and Camacho the top prospects of 1982.

[AREA 53]

Sibson was actually something of a rarity for his type of build, Short and Muscular, he looked like he would simply be a Chugg Forward Slugger, but he actually moved very well indeed, He slipped punches well when he came in with his "Rolling Thunder" advance, and when he let his shots go he could fire very fast combinations...and the Left Hook, well suffice it to say and philly middle would have been proud to own it, I still remember how youngster Sibson stood up to an early Rough-house from Frankie "Wild Man" Lucas to catch Lucas coming in with a Peach of Left Hook that effectively finished Lucas for the Evening, Minter and Collins also got a taste of the Sibbo Hook, if you traded with an On Form Sibbo you were playing with Fire, Frank tate was lucky he faced a Sibbo just going through the motions.

[redrooster]

Well said. The man wasn't the pushover he came across as in the Hagler fight.

[Cojimar 1945]

redrooster does seem to be overrating Hagler's opponnents as their records do not seem to indicate they were better than the contenders of other eras. If Hagler's opponnents were so good why do their records not bear this out and why didn't they do well in crossover matchups? Hagler's opponents were not able to hold out against the younger fighters that came along.

[redrooster]

Are you that fooled by professional records Coljimar?

I got past misleading records a long time ago. Scan the records of Galindez, Monzon, Arguello, Foster, Tiger, Dempsey before they won their championships.

The carefully manuvering of a fighter's career didn't begin until the age of Leonard and Hearns and hit full swing with Chavez.

[Cojimar 1945]

Hagler was not the only one to beat these guys though. What is one to make of all the other losses? As I recall Sibson had a number of losses aside from the one to Hagler so clearly other guys could handle him.

[redrooster]

Hagler was not the only one to beat these guys though. What is one to make of all the other losses? As I recall Sibson had a number of losses aside from the one to Hagler so clearly other guys could handle him.

Fair question, Cojimar. If I wasn't around to see him myself, I might be thinking the same thing. Of course, I'm old so I was able to catch him, read about him, study him.

You know how that is. First you read about a guy and if the reviews are interesting enough, you want to see him yourself. Sometimes we aren't impressed by what we see and other times, we think he's great and so on.

What could I say? I was inquisitive-much more so than today. The thing is, I was into the division. I followed other divisions too, even the welters but 160 was my favorite because I thought all the best fighters were there. For sure, fighters with the most viscious styles competed in it. It's nothing like that today unfortunately.

So since 160 was my favorite division i studied the development of not only the champion Hagler but any future prospects and contenders. That's how I know so much about the development of Thomas Hearns and why I chew Leonard out so often.

Remember that development is the key word. And also the development of the division itself and who's who, just the way it was in the heavyweight division was in the days of Ali, Frazier, and Foreman, Lyle, etc otherwise, names become meaningless.

I'm not bragging mind you. There are two other posters here who also have seen him. And we are not the only ones who have taken notice. KO magazine had labelled Tony as Hagler's best challenger to date so even if you can't see what I'm talking about, regardless of his record, there must be a good reason for it if KO magazine agrees with me
(I can't stand their writers)

You must understand that Tony wasn't an overight success. Other contenders like Obel had unbeaten records but against questionable opposition and only locally (he was kind of protected)

He didn't participate in international competition.

It was a highly competitive division where many of the best fighters came out with spotty records (Kalambay) and/or quickly burnt out.

It took Sibbo six years like Hagler, to reach full potential and earn that #1 status to get a title shot. From what I know, the fire went out after the Don Lee fight and like most of the other contenders, became a club fighter before age 30.

[Cobra33]

Let me get this straight:Hearns couldn't ko Sibson but DON LEE could?:rofl

[Doppleganger]

We need to get some perspective here. I really liked Sibbo as a fighter when he was up and coming. I even hoped beyond hope that he'd do something with Hagler, although deep down I knew that Hagler would beat him up. He had a helluva left hook on him and was very strong but Thomas Hearns, like Hagler, was in a different league.

Tommy would have to watch the left hook, but he's been in with short fighters with potent left hooks before and done fine. Pipino Cuevas comes to mind. Tommy would control this fight from start to finish, using the jab, right cross and long range left and right hooks to the body. It would end in a mid round TKO or perhaps a straight KO as Sibbo did not quite have the chin of a DeWitt or Barkley IMO. It was a decent chin but perhaps not decent enough to withstand Tommy's power. I can't see Sibbo taking the right cross that Tommy hit Hagler with in round 1 of their fight.

If Sibbo connects cleanly with that left hook then yeah, he can knock Tommy out. But unless Tommy gets careless ala Barkley I it's much more likely that Hearns stops a game but outclassed Sibson in about the same time as Hagler did it.

[JohnThomas1]

What do you mean "blue collar"? You don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Is that supposed to be a compliment?

Blue collar is better suited for guys like Hopkins with average power who have no choice but to become more industrious to make up for their deficiencies.


Hopkins is a great, Sibson a blue collar fighter. Never really heard it was invented for certain fighting styles sorry. Class level yes, Sibson = blue collar, Hopkins = great.

Tony's jab was piston like, break your nose punch.

When did Tony ever dominate a good fighter with his jab?
Better still, what noses did he break with his jab? More hot air as usual.

Sibbo was actually a converted southpaw but in addition, had a great sneak right hand that travelled faster than most left jabs.

You really need to have a good hard look at what you type. Tony wasn't known for great speed. Excellent left hook, heart and determination were some of his bigger assets. Faster than your left jab? That'd be about it.

And once on the inside, you can consider the fight to be pretty much over.


Considering he went inside most every round he ever fought what first round ko's does he have? What a ridiculous statement.

And he wouldn't stop at 2 or 3 good shots at one time to rest. Tony was different. He didn't stop plugging away until the opponent was out of action.

So he threw non stop punches every second of the fight. Righto :nut

So you can't say Tony would be outclassed when he's got most of the advantages.

Advantages that can only be found in your delusional fantasies.


The only catagory that can be considered to be an advantage was his height

Yeah, Tony has advantages in speed, right hand power, defence, experience vs top opposition, left jab etc.

:lol:

Sibbo would hurt his ribs even worse than marvin or Ray. He was expert at getting inside taller opponents and working the ribs. He even made it look easy.

Duran was one of the great inside fighters, pity he didn't get there ;)

Tommy always had trouble with strong, powerhouse type middleweights but a matchup with Sibbo is worse because he had so many tools.

Tough match for sure, Tony's a live underdog, but i see Hearn's early here.

[JohnThomas1]

redrooster does seem to be overrating Hagler's opponnents as their records do not seem to indicate they were better than the contenders of other eras. If Hagler's opponnents were so good why do their records not bear this out and why didn't they do well in crossover matchups? Hagler's opponents were not able to hold out against the younger fighters that came along.

Trust your instinct, Rooster's full of it. It was an era of many lazy middleweights who could have been decent fighters if only. By far the best of it were fighters moving up.

[AREA 53]

Regarding Sibson's Losses, if one put them under the microscope they are "understandable" against the backdrop of a fighter learning his trade and not concerned with avoiding challenges,

Lotte Mwale - Tony was Ambushed against the little known Lottie - turns out Lottie was a big puncher, class boxer and Lightheavyweight ! - no reflection on Sibson - somebody did not do their homework !

Eddie Smith - A good class tenacious Pro - young Sibbo turned the tables in the rematch

Kevin Finnegan - when on form could be an absolute handful for anyone, including Marvin hagler himself, apparently in his first fight with Marvin it was level after 8 rounds, but Finnegan had won the previous two rounds and was closing strong when the fight was stopped on cuts in Marvins Favour, - there is no disgrace in being beaten by an in form pro like Finnegan

Marvin Hagler - Marvin made sure he used his mobility and Boxing Skills against Sibbo early, Marvin was aware it made little sense to invite a trading war early with a fresh Sibbo, Marvin was professional and used his versatility to make a potentially hard job much easier - not many I suspect could do this to this Sibbo and to this degree of tactical perfection.

In two of his last three fights Sibbo lost to Dennis Andries A big Punching Lightheavyweight and in his last fight, with little fire left in his belly, was served up to Frank Tate,

All loses to me were understandable in one form or another, its Only the Dangerous Don Lee loss that has me scratching my head somewhat, it was a See-Saw battle, at the Time Don was indeed Dangerous, he Saw Sibbo as a quick route to contendership, and Don was prepared to come off the canvas to make the most of his opportunity, tony was perhaps a little too overconfident and complacent ? however, I suspect on this evening Don would of upset quite a few respected Middles,

Tony. An excellent hard hitting fighter when fully on form, and if Barkley can scupper Hearns with a big left hook, I would not say that it was impossible for Sibbo to follow suit,

Hearns would no doubt be favoured, but Tommy was certainly not the dreadnought at middle that he was at Welter and Lt Middle, at Middle, Olajide, Kitchen, and Roldan all introduced Tommy to the Tremors, as mentioned Barkley's shock for Tommy went much further on the Richter Scale,

Location could be the decider, in the states Tommy would seem the safer choice, but at Empire Pool Wembly…with chants of SIBBO…SIBBO..SIBBO nearly raising the roof, Tommy may find this British Bulldog is one underdog that overturns the odds,chews them up and spits them out.

[JohnThomas1]

Kevin Finnegan - when on form could be an absolute handful for anyone, including Marvin hagler himself, apparently in his first fight with Marvin it was level after 8 rounds, but Finnegan had won the previous two rounds and was closing strong when the fight was stopped on cuts in Marvins Favour, - there is no disgrace in being beaten by an in form pro like Finnegan


I'm certainly not convinced Finegan was on form, he'd lost 5 of hi9s last 7 bouts, 3 by stoppage. Even given 3 were Hagler and Minter one would think even the more reason for him to be negatively affected for what he endured. I'll grant you Tony was young and a couple of years off prominence tho.

[redrooster]

Let me get this straight:Hearns couldn't ko Sibson but DON LEE could?:rofl

Cobra I encourage you get your hands on this if you're able to and see it for yourself.

Tony was handling him fine until the moment Don switched stances on him. Tony was having his way with him but it totally threw him off when Don went lefty on him. And it left Sibbo vulnerable for the left. That was the punch that was getting him in trouble and sending him to the canvas but once Don switched back to orthodox, Tony got back in the fight winning the rounds.

It was a shock for me to see Tony beating a man 6-2 with his jab and sneak rights to the head and body. Thomas Hearns does not fight as a lefty and never did.

Tony scored another knockdown in the 8th and that was when Don went back to southpaw and immediately, you could see Tony become vulnerable once more as another left caught him and put him down again and the fight was waved over soon after.

[redrooster]

We need to get some perspective here. I really liked Sibbo as a fighter when he was up and coming. I even hoped beyond hope that he'd do something with Hagler, although deep down I knew that Hagler would beat him up. He had a helluva left hook on him and was very strong but Thomas Hearns, like Hagler, was in a different league.

Tommy would have to watch the left hook, but he's been in with short fighters with potent left hooks before and done fine. Pipino Cuevas comes to mind. Tommy would control this fight from start to finish, using the jab, right cross and long range left and right hooks to the body. It would end in a mid round TKO or perhaps a straight KO as Sibbo did not quite have the chin of a DeWitt or Barkley IMO. It was a decent chin but perhaps not decent enough to withstand Tommy's power. I can't see Sibbo taking the right cross that Tommy hit Hagler with in round 1 of their fight.

If Sibbo connects cleanly with that left hook then yeah, he can knock Tommy out. But unless Tommy gets careless ala Barkley I it's much more likely that Hearns stops a game but outclassed Sibson in about the same time as Hagler did it.

Which of his fights have you seen Dopll? No one can say Sibbo didn't have the chin of Dewitt or Barkley with a straight face. Only those who've never seen Sibbo have the right to be doubters.

When was it when Hearns was outclassing all the contenders at 160? As I recall, he was felled like a tree in only his first defense. No successful defenses from what I could see.

And it didn't even come against a Sibson, Hamsho, Davison, or even a Scypion.

As for his chin, Tony was a top ranked contender and Dewit never was. If you're a talented fighter with a punch and no chin then you don't make it to #1 as was the case with Ramos but Sibbo had everything to compete at that level.

To say Sibbo's chin wasn't on the same with Barkley's is ridiculous and I don't think you are as familiar with Sibbo as you are Barkley. I know both fighters well and Iran was stopped in one by one of the stronger middleweights Benn. I think everyone's seen that match where Wallow got on his case in the interview for his tactics and overaggression.

Yet Barkely and Dewitt both stood up to Tommy. Even unranked novice Jeff Mckraken who didn't have any business in the ring with Thomas, went eight with Tommy.

Tommy didn't really do very well as a middleweight because of his short comings never competed at 160 when it was strong. That's why he dropped down to jr. middle and played it safe with Benitez and company for two years. Maybe if the division had more people like Hopkins, Tommy would make a couple defenses.

[AREA 53]

JohnThomas1 - Hi JT Re Kevin Finnegan regaining Form, After the two cut stappages to Hagler, Kevin seemed to slip into High class trailhore mode, but for Sibson, with the British title at stake Kevin was motivated to pull out all the stops, in his next fight he went over to Gretian Tonna backyard and took the European middleweight title of him, gaining revenge for an earlier defeat in the process, this was indeed a short title motivating revival for Kevin
- but a Draw and Loss in his next/last two fights showed that Kevin was indeed past his peak and not able to maintain the reguritated fine form, Kevin retired,

At his Best,as when he when to Paris and took the Euro Title off of French Darling Jean Claude Bouttier, Kevin was a very hard Middle to Beat and would be an Intriguing Matchup for the likes of Hart, Briscoe, Mugabi Dewitt ect ect.

[JohnThomas1]

When was it when Hearns was outclassing all the contenders at 160? As I recall, he was felled like a tree in only his first defense. No successful defenses from what I could see.


Funny you should say that, last time i looked Sibson didn't even win the title let alone attmept to defend it

:lol:

Allied to the fact Hearn's wins over Schuler and Roldan beat Tony's best wins at middle. He also gave Hagler a better fight.

[redrooster]

AREA, I'm glad you set the record straight on Hagler-Finnegan. Someone here with a personal bias, was reading some newspaper account that Hagler was hopelessly behind while in fact it seems he had only lost the last two rounds when the cut opened on Kevin.

[JohnThomas1]

As for his chin, Tony was a top ranked contender and Dewit never was.


Schuler was top contender too, tell me again how many seconds (never mind rounds or minutes) he lasted against Hearn's?

[redrooster]

Funny you should say that, last time i looked Sibson didn't even win the title let alone attmept to defend it

:lol:

Allied to the fact Hearn's wins over Schuler and Roldan beat Tony's best wins at middle. He also gave Hagler a better fight.

That's because the title wasn't split as yet but when it wasn't, they both faced the same titlist you king sized moron and if memory serves me right, Tommy only got half as far as Tony.

Stop embarrassing yourself please and get a brain.

[JohnThomas1]

That's because the title wasn't split as yet but when it wasn't, they both faced the same titlist you king sized moron and if memory serves me right, Tommy only got half as far as Tony.

Stop embarrassing yourself please and get a brain.

Ah, but Hearn's had the longevity and courage to come back from a heavy loss to win the title down the track. Need i remind you which one of them didn't have this capacity?

Just face it, your built up middleweight fantasy boys were just good fighters, nothing more, often less. Sibson, Roldan, Scypion (ok contenders in a poor era), Hard Rock For Red/Green (clubfighter), Le Animarl Fletcher (exciting clubfighter) Shit, nearly forgot the sleepwalker, Dwight.

[redrooster]

Ah, but Hearn's had the longevity and courage to come back from a heavy loss to win the title down the track. Need i remind you which one of them didn't have this capacity?

Just face it, your built up middleweight fantasy boys were just good fighters, nothing more, often less. Sibson, Roldan, Scypion (ok contenders in a poor era), Hard Rock For Red/Green (clubfighter), Le Animarl Fletcher (exciting clubfighter) Shit, nearly forgot the sleepwalker, Dwight.

Any of those you mentioned could win a split title if they're still capable. Look at lightly regarded Obel who a title at 168.

On the other hand, not all great fighters win titles. Look at Langford. Look at Burley.

It all depends on what opportunities are available.

I'm surprised you haven't figured yet JT. Give up now, you're not smart enough to match wits with me.

[JohnThomas1]

Any of those you mentioned could win a split title if they're still capable. Look at lightly regarded Obel who a title at 168.


Yeah, look at the 168 division when Obel won the strap, just started and nobody any good at all. Chong Pal Park he beat for the crown. Yeah, who? :lol:

Split title? You've already told all and sundrey what a great fighter and enormous puncher Roldan was and now anybody can beat him for a split title? You always run true to form, contradictive and plain hypocritical. You're posts have more holes than swiss cheese

I'm surprised you haven't figured yet JT. Give up now, you're not smart enough to match wits with me.

You to wit is what Frank Le Animarl was to defensive skill

:good

[My dinner with Conteh]

Good to see the old rivalry back lads. :bbb



Meanwhile, my gut feeling here has to be Tommy. But Sibbo's style, strength, durability and left hook make this a tough fight to call. My prediction is Tommy to survive a knockdown around the 3rd and a further jelly legs session in the 6th to score a knockdown and stoppage in Round 8. But I wouldn't bet anything on it.

[redrooster]

Yeah, look at the 168 division when Obel won the strap, just started and nobody any good at all. Chong Pal Park he beat for the crown. Yeah, who? :lol:

Split title? You've already told all and sundrey what a great fighter and enormous puncher Roldan was and now anybody can beat him for a split title? You always run true to form, contradictive and plain hypocritical. You're posts have more holes than swiss cheese



You to wit is what Frank Le Animarl was to defensive skill

:good

you were the one who just bragging how Tommy came back to win a title after his defeats. Isn't that the important thing?

I don't even remember who Bernard won his title from but I know it sure as hell it wasn't from Roy Jones. And according to you, Hopkins is all that.

So why should it matter who Obel beat for his title?

[Doppleganger]

Which of his fights have you seen Dopll? No one can say Sibbo didn't have the chin of Dewitt or Barkley with a straight face. Only those who've never seen Sibbo have the right to be doubters.

When was it when Hearns was outclassing all the contenders at 160? As I recall, he was felled like a tree in only his first defense. No successful defenses from what I could see.

And it didn't even come against a Sibson, Hamsho, Davison, or even a Scypion.
I saw all his fights from Minter onwards and his chin was good no doubt, but not that good. I haven't said otherwise. It might have been easier to compare it to Hagler's to make my point better. If Tommy landed that right hand he hit Hagler with he'd hurt Sibbo and could possibly stop him with a few more like that. Sibbo isn't a guy you knock out with a single punch but Tommy's so quick that he'd land several more punches, which is what, in fact, happened with Hagler when Tommy had him hurt.

Tommy had 5 fights at middleweight. In 3 of them he totally outclassed his opponent even if he did lose to Barkley in one of those fights. Barkley knocked Tommy the fuck out but up until the last 20 seconds it was as one sided a fight in Tommy's favour as you're ever likely to see. One fight he lost a war against arguably the greatest middleweight ever and in another he won a shootout against Roldan, a fighter that had given Hagler a good deal of trouble.

Yet Barkely and Dewitt both stood up to Tommy.
Barkley was 1 round at most away from being stopped and the cut eye Tommy suffered against DeWitt seemed to negatively affect him for the rest of the fight. Until the cut it looked like Hearns was going through the gears on DeWitt. Benn only KO'd DeWitt through accumulation of punches and pressure and if not for the cut eye I think Hearns would have TKO'd DeWitt too.

Tommy didn't really do very well as a middleweight because of his short comings never competed at 160 when it was strong. That's why he dropped down to jr. middle and played it safe with Benitez and company for two years. Maybe if the division had more people like Hopkins, Tommy would make a couple defenses.
Tommy's record at 160lbs is 3-2 and it really should have been 4-1, with the only loss against one of the greatest middles of all time. Not really that bad is it?

[redrooster]

Hopkins is a great, Sibson a blue collar fighter. Never really heard it was invented for certain fighting styles sorry. Class level yes, Sibson = blue collar, Hopkins = great.


You really need to have a good hard look at what you type. Tony wasn't known for great speed. Excellent left hook, heart and determination were some of his bigger assets. Faster than your left jab? That'd be about it.



That's because you never read the words "great speed" in what little you've read on him. You're an embarrassment to ESB. Why do I bother arguing with this moron?

By the way, I have straightened out your message which reads Hopkins= dull, blue collar fighter with average punch with great longevity in a weak division.

[redrooster]

I saw all his fights from Minter onwards and his chin was good no doubt, but not that good. I haven't said otherwise. It might have been easier to compare it to Hagler's to make my point better. If Tommy landed that right hand he hit Hagler with he'd hurt Sibbo and could possibly stop him with a few more like that. Sibbo isn't a guy you knock out with a single punch but Tommy's so quick that he'd land several more punches, which is what, in fact, happened with Hagler when Tommy had him hurt.

Tommy had 5 fights at middleweight. In 3 of them he totally outclassed his opponent even if he did lose to Barkley in one of those fights. Barkley knocked Tommy the fuck out but up until the last 20 seconds it was as one sided a fight in Tommy's favour as you're ever likely to see. One fight he lost a war against arguably the greatest middleweight ever and in another he won a shootout against Roldan, a fighter that had given Hagler a good deal of trouble.


Barkley was 1 round at most away from being stopped and the cut eye Tommy suffered against DeWitt seemed to negatively affect him for the rest of the fight. Until the cut it looked like Hearns was going through the gears on DeWitt. Benn only KO'd DeWitt through accumulation of punches and pressure and if not for the cut eye I think Hearns would have TKO'd DeWitt too.


Tommy's record at 160lbs is 3-2 and it really should have been 4-1, with the only loss against one of the greatest middles of all time. Not really that bad is it?

Let's take a closer look at Tommy's opposition from the leonard fight on.

Singletary who was bottom of the barrell. This is the kind of safe oppoenent looks for: durable yet safe.

had no problems lasting the distance. To be fair, Tommy wasn't accustomed to the weight and no one says you have to knock out every opponent.

But let's be honest, Geraldo was kind of weak for a middleweight and criticized by Farhood (rightfully so) and was a habitual loser.

Then Mckraken-unranked, unknown. Don't know where they found him.

Sutherland. By now, Tommy should have adjusted to the weight. First round victim to Davison, the same man who once went the distance with Spinks and went 10 with Tommy.

Sibbo overcame the power of Davison for 12 to take a decision.

Minchillo. Strong fighter but not as strong as Sibbo, without being the danger Tony was, and without the defense Tony had, goes 12 with Tommy.

Then after Hagler you have Tommy's rare knockouts of a middleweight. But did James have either a punch or a chin?

Dewit who never went anywhere, was no Sibson but you seem to give the impression Doug had more credibility!

Now Roldan would have knocked out Tommy had he gone about it smartly instead of dropping his hands by his sides and allowing Tommy to club him. That was bullshit. It wasn't the same fighter who came in prepared for Hagler even tho he had to know his chances for winning were a lot better.

After that, what did he do? he got knocked out trying to defend his paper title.

So Singletary, Geraldo, mckraken, or Dewitt don't count as top contenders. Only the Shuler fight was meaningful.

Barkley? come on! And Roldan just plain fought stupidly and should not be confused, much less compared with a prime Sibbo.

[Doppleganger]

Let's take a closer look at Tommy's opposition from the leonard fight on.

Singletary who was bottom of the barrell. This is the kind of safe oppoenent looks for: durable yet safe.

had no problems lasting the distance. To be fair, Tommy wasn't accustomed to the weight and no one says you have to knock out every opponent.

But let's be honest, Geraldo was kind of weak for a middleweight and criticized by Farhood (rightfully so) and was a habitual loser.

Then Mckraken-unranked, unknown. Don't know where they found him.

Sutherland. By now, Tommy should have adjusted to the weight. First round victim to Davison, the same man who once went the distance with Spinks and went 10 with Tommy.

Sibbo overcame the power of Davison for 12 to take a decision.

Minchillo. Strong fighter but not as strong as Sibbo, without being the danger Tony was, and without the defense Tony had, goes 12 with Tommy.

Then after Hagler you have Tommy's rare knockouts of a middleweight. But did James have either a punch or a chin? You seem to have missed out Tommy's fights with Benitez, Duran, Hill, Leonard II, Andries etc. In other words, the fights where Tommy looked good. :p

There was no evidence before the fight that Shuler's chin was anything but solid. In fact, the Hearns vs Shuler fight was expected to be a long, technical affair.

Now Roldan would have knocked out Tommy had he gone about it smartly instead of dropping his hands by his sides and allowing Tommy to club him. That was bullshit. It wasn't the same fighter who came in prepared for Hagler even tho he had to know his chances for winning were a lot better.

After that, what did he do? he got knocked out trying to defend his paper title.

So Singletary, Geraldo, mckraken, or Dewitt don't count as top contenders. Only the Shuler fight was meaningful.

Barkley? come on! And Roldan just plain fought stupidly and should not be confused, much less compared with a prime Sibbo.
I think you'll find out that Roldan's strategy went out the window as soon as he took the first right cross from Hearns. What happened afterwards degenerated into a slugfest where Tommy outbrawled the brawler.

The bottom line is that stylistically this is a good fight for Tommy against Sibbo, fighting a slower, short armed puncher who can't outbox him nor outspeed him. Tommy just has to not get careless and stay away from the left hook. I don't think Tommy's legs at middleweight will keep him away from Sibbo for 12 rounds, so there might be some shaky moments for Hearns. But Tommy will be hitting Sibson will his full arsenal and if Hagler can force a stoppage then so can Tommy, who hits harder and faster.

The intangibles are whether Sibbo can land the left hook with full effect and whether Tommy's legs can keep him away from it. Also, will Tommy get careless when he has Sibbo in trouble ala Barkley I. We can pick apart the records of both fighters as much as we like but the facts are that like Cuevas before him, the 5ft 8" Sibbo will have real difficulty in landing his heavy artillery whereas Tommy will have no difficulty in landing with his. In poker starting hands Tommy is KK to Sibbo's 10, J suited.

[JohnThomas1]

you were the one who just bragging how Tommy came back to win a title after his defeats. Isn't that the important thing?

I don't even remember who Bernard won his title from but I know it sure as hell it wasn't from Roy Jones. And according to you, Hopkins is all that.

So why should it matter who Obel beat for his title?

Well Hyp Hopkins defended his title 20 odd times and for a seeming lifetime of years, unifying about 4 in the process, now lets look at what Fully Obel did shall we?

Oh, nothing

:lol:

[redrooster]

Well Hyp Hopkins defended his title 20 odd times and for a seeming lifetime of years, unifying about 4 in the process, now lets look at what Fully Obel did shall we?

Oh, nothing

:lol:

Unifying isn't what it used to be :smoke

And Obel won a title. That legitimizes his career according to you.

[Cojimar 1945]

There are some cool Hagler fights on youtube now fortunately.

[JohnThomas1]

Unifying isn't what it used to be :smoke

And Obel won a title. That legitimizes his career according to you.

You call that thing Obel won a title? Actually it doesn't surprise me hahaha.

[redrooster]

You call that thing Obel won a title? Actually it doesn't surprise me hahaha.

Obel has every reason to be proud of what he accomplished for boxing, opening the doors for future greats like Hearns and Leonard so that they might have more opportunities to win more titles.

Obel was the latest of pioneers in the sport alongside names such as Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Johnson, Dempsey, Armstrong, and Ali :smoke

[JohnThomas1]

Obel has every reason to be proud of what he accomplished for boxing, opening the doors for future greats like Hearns and Leonard so that they might have more opportunities to win more titles.

Obel was the latest of pioneers in the sport alongside names such as Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Johnson, Dempsey, Armstrong, and Ali :smoke

:lol:

[redrooster]

:lol:

Nobody laughs when Obel connects. They just hit the canvas for the count.

[TIGEREDGE]

As I said in an earlier thread, it's all about styles and Tommy has always had problems with punchers ie; Roldan, Barkley, Hagler.

Even Doug Dewitt, was tough but not very good, had no problem taking him the distance. Doug was never close to being a top ranked middleweight but connected when ever he liked. The jab of Hearns did not stop him either.

Likewise with James Kinchen. Kinchen wasn't nearly as power laden as Sibbo but a more damaging hitter than Bernard Hopkins, put him on the canvas and came very close to winning on points. More importantly, he softened Tommy up for Ray Leonard.

Roldan had him within a punch or two from a knockout but let him off the hook. And Barkley actually knocked him out. Tommy couldn't stop him and there's no reason to think that Sibson, a much better middleweight, wouldn't do the same.

TOMMY NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE MURDEROUS PUNCHING PIPINO CUEVAS