Joe Calzaghe vs. James Toney prime/prime

[Amsterdam]

At 168 of course.

Who takes it for you?

Calzaghe 116-112 for me.

[Jinx]

Toney's counterpunching would be too much for Calzaghe's slaps...Toney TKO 10...

[MagnificentMatt]

At 168 of course.

Who takes it for you?

Calzaghe 116-112 for me.

Ill go with the same..Its a style mismatch for Toney, his stationary, footless defense would not be able to keep up with Calzaghe although he might take over on a couple exchanges..Ill say Calzxaghe takes it 7-5 With Toney startign to get a feel later into the fight but not enough to take it over.

[psychopath]

:D :lol:
Prime for prime?

If Toney could exchange bombs with the heavies now despite being over weight and beyond his prime, Toney could have retired JC long time ago.

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[JAM Killer]

Prime for Prime, Toney would have knocked Calzaghe out, Calzaghe is a better boxer on the outside, but Toney has a way, or used to have a way of getting his shots off on the inside and with beautiful counters.

[Amsterdam]

Ill go with the same..Its a style mismatch for Toney, his stationary, footless defense would not be able to keep up with Calzaghe although he might take over on a couple exchanges..Ill say Calzxaghe takes it 7-5 With Toney startign to get a feel later into the fight but not enough to take it over.

Toney's open for awkward angle shots as well using the shoulder roll defence after he jabs and throws counters, as well as Calzaghe popping in and out with the footspeed giving Toney immense trouble, then the amount thrown.

Toney could floor Calzaghe possibly, which would effect the scoring. But peak/peak, it's going to be a difficult task as I've seen Calzaghe really eat some bombs and not blink, despite the KD vs. Mitchell.

I feel it would be clear, 8-4 like.

[emanuel_augustus]

Toney was a master boxer at 168. See: Iran Barkely

He would bust up Calzaghe and win a fairly wide UD.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe would pose a lot of problems to Toney as Toney would to Calzaghe. Calzaghe's awkward shots, speed, and volume punching would be the attributes he has going for him, but Toney was a boxing master and a precision counter puncher. I'm going with Calzaghe by close decision due to his volume punching, footspeed, and handspeed.

[emanuel_augustus]

Ill go with the same..Its a style mismatch for Toney, his stationary, footless defense would not be able to keep up with Calzaghe although he might take over on a couple exchanges..Ill say Calzxaghe takes it 7-5 With Toney startign to get a feel later into the fight but not enough to take it over.

Oh really, yet he could beat Michael Nunn at 168 who is one of the quickest boxers you will ever see. Calzaghe is no prime Roy Jones, Toney would rip him with counters all night long.

[emanuel_augustus]

correction: 160 not 168.

[Cookie]

Toney's open for awkward angle shots as well using the shoulder roll defence after he jabs and throws counters, as well as Calzaghe popping in and out with the footspeed giving Toney immense trouble, then the amount thrown.

Toney could floor Calzaghe possibly, which would effect the scoring. But peak/peak, it's going to be a difficult task as I've seen Calzaghe really eat some bombs and not blink, despite the KD vs. Mitchell.

I feel it would be clear, 8-4 like.

I think Calzaghe would win too.

[RDJ]

Oh really, yet he could beat Michael Nunn at 168 who is one of the quickest boxers you will ever see. Calzaghe is no prime Roy Jones, Toney would rip him with counters all night long.

I agree. Toney by UD or maybe even late stoppage, depending on how Joe takes the punishment.

[Rock0052]

168 is also when Toney started becoming more inconsistent, and when he started the bothersome trend of losing to the best fighters he fought in each division, which he didn't overcome until Cruiserweight. I've got Joe winning a clear decision- around 116-112 sounds right.

[cross_trainer]

At 168 of course.

Who takes it for you?

Calzaghe 116-112 for me.

Calzaghe @ 168 vs. Toney @ 190?

Toney by narrow UD. If both are at 168, though, Calzaghe takes it. Toney was too drained in the lighter weights.

[Rock0052]

Oh really, yet he could beat Michael Nunn at 168 who is one of the quickest boxers you will ever see. Calzaghe is no prime Roy Jones, Toney would rip him with counters all night long.

The only thing with the Nunn is that even if he's got the edge in quickness, Calzaghe's a more focused fighter over 12 rounds and I feel he's better conditioned. And his handspeed is nothing to sneeze at. A prime Roy Jones nearly pitched a shutout on JT; there's not THAT big a difference between prime Calzaghe and prime Roy (though for my money, I wouldn't feel comfortable picking anyone at 168 over Roy consistently, even if a couple guys could win). If you want to talk technique, I'd probably even give Joe the edge because Roy got away with some things because he's a freak of an athlete.

A Toney KO could definitely be possible because he was a heck of a puncher, but if he doesn't get the knockout, I think Joe would win on points because his offensive style is the worst matchup for Toney. Toney's at his best when guys only throw a couple power shots at a time so he can get the most out of his counters; Calzaghe's workrate and accuracy would stifle that over the course of 12 rounds IMO.

[Executioner]

Calzaghe will be killed with sharp counters.

[emanuel_augustus]

168 is also when Toney started becoming more inconsistent, and when he started the bothersome trend of losing to the best fighters he fought in each division, which he didn't overcome until Cruiserweight. I've got Joe winning a clear decision- around 116-112 sounds right.

Trend? He lost to Roy Jones after being weight drained. We're talking PRIME Toney, which would be the version that tore apart Iran Barkley 1 1/2 years before the Jones fight.

Toney showed he could adapt and beat different styles at 160 and 168: Nunn, Johnson, McCallum, Barkley, Charles Williams, etc.

You guys far underrated Toney.

[emanuel_augustus]

The only thing with the Nunn is that even if he's got the edge in quickness, Calzaghe's a more focused fighter over 12 rounds and I feel he's better conditioned. And his handspeed is nothing to sneeze at. A prime Roy Jones nearly pitched a shutout on JT; there's not THAT big a difference between prime Calzaghe and prime Roy (though for my money, I wouldn't feel comfortable picking anyone at 168 over Roy consistently, even if a couple guys could win). If you want to talk technique, I'd probably even give Joe the edge because Roy got away with some things because he's a freak of an athlete.

You gotta be kidding me. Michael Nunn had some of the fastest hands of that era. Calzaghe is nowhere NEAR as fast as Nunn was. And he only slowed in that fight because started bombing him with counter rights and left crosses in the later rounds.

Now, I like Calzaghe, but you cannot even start to compare him with the 1994 version of Roy Jones. We're not talking technique, we're talking winning fights, and Roy at that time was nearly unbeatable, especially by a Toney who was dead at the weight at that time.

If you take the 168 version of Toney that fought Barkley, Calzaghe is going to look like he's swimming in quicksand trying to land on him.

[Rock0052]

Trend? He lost to Roy Jones after being weight drained. We're talking PRIME Toney, which would be the version that tore apart Iran Barkley 1 1/2 years before the Jones fight.

Toney showed he could adapt and beat different styles at 160 and 168: Nunn, Johnson, McCallum, Barkley, Charles Williams, etc.

You guys far underrated Toney.

I like both guys (in fact, I'd pick Toney over Hopkins at 160..but that's another argument for another day:lol:), I just think Calzaghe would win more often than not unless Toney catches him for the KO because of the reasons I pointed out. It'd be a hell of a fight, though.

[Executioner]

People overrate the Nunn-Toney fight. They act like Toney was losing every round, he wasn't. He had won the last couple of rounds and coming on very strong.

[Shotgun]

Oh really, yet he could beat Michael Nunn at 168 who is one of the quickest boxers you will ever see

Well, he beat Nunn by knocking him out late. Nunn was well ahead on all cards at the time of the stoppage

[BlueApollo]

I'll take Toney by UD, although I'm far from an expert on prime Calzaghe. I can easily see James landing blistering counters inside of those sweeping arm punches Joe gets away with. You can do that to Lacy and Manfredo, not a prime Lights Out.

[Thread Stealer]

168 is also when Toney started becoming more inconsistent, and when he started the bothersome trend of losing to the best fighters he fought in each division, which he didn't overcome until Cruiserweight. I've got Joe winning a clear decision- around 116-112 sounds right.

Toney was more inconsistent at 160 than at 168. He had one poor performance at 168, getting dominated by Roy Jones.

At 160, he won a close fight over Reggie Johnson after being dropped and hurt in round 2, got a highly questionable call over DAVE TIBERI, and arguably lost the Mike McCallum rematch.

And he never even fought the best guys @ 175. The best guy he fought there was probably Montell Griffin, whom Toney probably deserved the decision in BOTH fights, but Toney also lost @ 175 to Drake Thadazi of all people.

[Jinx]

Well, he beat Nunn by knocking him out late. Nunn was well ahead on all cards at the time of the stoppage

Nunn would've handled Calzaghe too...and Calzaghe won't have the late power to stop him...

[Boro chris]

I like Toney and his 'oldschool' (dont we get sick of that phrase!) style but despite his much higher level of competition Joe has a horrible style for Toney to adjust too. Joe's bigger, stronger, quicker and I can see those wide left hands landing with regularity despite Toney's excellent defense.
Joe UD 12 despite the fact I hate picking the less proved fighter (no excuse really at 35) in a matchup like this.

[Boro chris]

Nunn would've handled Calzaghe too...and Calzaghe won't have the late power to stop him...

Stylewise Nunn is tougher for Joe than Toney imo.

[Scar]

Calzaghe by decision.

[yesihavearm]

Calzaghe is nowhere NEAR as fast as Nunn was.



Stop chatting shit.

[Marquito_666]

I pick Calzaghe by Decision

[charlievint]

At 168 of course.

Who takes it for you?

Calzaghe 116-112 for me.

James toney by KO or UD...either way he'd be too much for Joe in terms of skills. But Joe would do well in spurts and make it an exciting fight until he had to pick himself off the canvas.

[charlievint]

Toney's open for awkward angle shots as well using the shoulder roll defence after he jabs and throws counters, as well as Calzaghe popping in and out with the footspeed giving Toney immense trouble, then the amount thrown.

Toney could floor Calzaghe possibly, which would effect the scoring. But peak/peak, it's going to be a difficult task as I've seen Calzaghe really eat some bombs and not blink, despite the KD vs. Mitchell.

I feel it would be clear, 8-4 like.

Good point...Joe is very good with using his legs and feet....But prime for prime Toney would be in shape, faster and more agile. Those are all advantages against Joe.

I think Joe would still make it a good fight but ultimately loosing to the better fighter overall.

[charlievint]

Calzaghe @ 168 vs. Toney @ 190?

Toney by narrow UD. If both are at 168, though, Calzaghe takes it. Toney was too drained in the lighter weights.

Right! And he was still able to kick most of the best fighters at that weights ass. He was pretty fucking amazing.

[andyZOR]

Toney was a master boxer at 168. See: Iran Barkely

He would bust up Calzaghe and win a fairly wide UD.


I agree with CUnninghamm over here. Toney UD or late KO.

[rendog67]

I am a big Calzaghe fan but i would take Toney by stoppage or K.O. I think joe would win most of the early rounds but i think Toney would have annoyed him so much with his pre fight and in ring comments that the macho Calzaghe would at some point in the fight stand and trade and that would be his downfall.

[Jstyal]

People just don't realize how much of a beast JT was.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Guru_Too_You]

Toney by stoppage.

A prime Toney was an unreal fighter.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe for his superior skill and ring-craft

[charlievint]

Calzaghe for his superior skill and ring-craft

Of course he does....when comparing him to Jeff Lacy....but we are comparing him to James Toney and while Joe is very, very good....JT is GREAT and superior to Joe.

[achillesthegreat]

They can box each other and I think Joe is the more dyanmic boxer.

They can fight on the inside and Joe is an EXCELLENT inside fighter.

Toney is a legendary fighter but I think Joe nicks it.

[paulfv]

Toney would crush him

IF he could catch him. It could be RJJ-Toney II, if not.

[China_hand_Joe]

Which of James Toney's classical boxing manuevers would he use to counter a lightning combination of half a dozen slaps exactly -questionmark-

[achillesthegreat]

Toney by stoppage is ridiculous. Calzaghe is not getting stopped.

[digiram]

Tony by KTFO. Calzaghe wouldn't land shit, and Tony would bust him up with counters.

[marting]

Toney. Who the hell has Calzaghe fought that even comes close to a prime Toney?

[China_hand_Joe]

Toney. Who the hell has Calzaghe fought that even comes close to a prime Toney?Toney has lost to fighters that don't even come close to prime or even past prime Calzaghe -fullstop- That is a more decisive fact than "Calzaghe's fought nobody" -fullstop-

[BlueApollo]

Which of James Toney's classical boxing manuevers would he use to counter a lightning combination of half a dozen slaps exactly -questionmark-

Assuming we're still talking about Joe Calzaghe and not E. Honda, I think a pinpoint lead hook to the body followed by an uppercut to the head, repeated over and over between, through, and around each "lightning slap", would do the trick.

In the other case, I think a low sweep worked.

[mike464]

A prime Toney is way too good for Calzaghe. Not 120-108 good but probably 118-110 good.

[marting]

Toney has lost to fighters that don't even come close to prime or even past prime Calzaghe -fullstop- That is a more decisive fact than "Calzaghe's fought nobody" -fullstop-

Name the figther that Calzaghe has faced that is better than a prime James Toney.

[China_hand_Joe]

Name the figther that Calzaghe has faced that is better than a prime James Toney.Name the fighter worse or equal to Toney Calzaghe lost too -questionmark-

[CASH_718]

Toney TKO 12

[CASH_718]

Name the fighter worse or equal to Toney Calzaghe lost too -questionmark-Name a fighter equal to Toney that Calazghe has fought............

[marting]

Name the fighter worse or equal to Toney Calzaghe lost too -questionmark-

None, which proves nothing. Now answer my question.

[digiram]

Calzaghe's style is bad for the stationary Toney though. Toney is a stationary counter-puncher, and those guyss have trouble with fast in and out fighters like Calzaghe and as shown Roy Jones. Calzaghe would pop in and out on the stationary Toney all night, and likely be able to fight with him on the inside as well. Toney has had a better career, but style-wise Joe is bad for him.

So Joe Calzahge is a prime Roy Jones now????

C'mon man....let's stop this madness.

So James Tony was a stationary fighter against Barkly and Nunn??? Have you only seen him as a Heavyweight.

Toney in his prime was way more dynamic, quicker, accurate, and powerfull. Not to mention his D and reflexes.

[CASH_718]

In what way? How much Calzaghe have you watched? Toney's style is suited perfectly for Calzaghe. A stationary counter-pouncher gets beat by a very fast in and out fighter all day. Joe would pop in and out throwing combos and if Toney tried to fight Joe could fight back. Joe undoubtedly gets caught with some good shots, possibly even decked, but overall he wins on points due to imposing his style and scoring more.Joe is no defence wize he would get cracked HARD with counters all day.

[China_hand_Joe]

None, which proves nothing. Now answer my question.Robin Reid -fullstop-

[digiram]

Robin Reid -fullstop-


:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Smazz20]

Why do people get so worked up about fictional matches? I can understand getting worked up over a POTENTIAL match up but some of you seem to be losing the head with each other over stuff like this and at the end of it all, NOE OF US WILL EVER KNOW!!

Boxing's great isn't it.

[CASH_718]

Wq-hpl3nPjg
Lights out bitches.

[marting]

Robin Reid -fullstop-

Robin Reid is better than James Toney?

Are we talking about the same guy that I saw Lacey beat like red headed step child in Tampa before 20,000 at the forum?

You must be kidding.

[digiram]

He has quickness and great footwork though and would pop in and out, and it's hard to counter 6 or 7 punches at one time.

But that can be timed, and Toney threw excellent and accurate combinations in his days.

[Fab2333]

Toney's counterpunching would be too much for Calzaghe's slaps...Toney TKO 10...:thumbsup

[digiram]

Why do people get so worked up about fictional matches? I can understand getting worked up over a POTENTIAL match up but some of you seem to be losing the head with each other over stuff like this and at the end of it all, NOE OF US WILL EVER KNOW!!

Boxing's great isn't it.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Gotta agree with you. After all of this back n forth hypothetical shit. It all boils down to nothing.


Boxing's great.

[CASH_718]

He has quickness and great footwork though and would pop in and out, and it's hard to counter 6 or 7 punches at one time.

Toney isn't Jeff Lacy or Byron Mitchell, Calzaghe isn't going to hit him at will like he did those guys.

[paulfv]

Toney's style is suited perfectly for Calzaghe

I agree with this. That said, Toney is sneaky, so he could "Nunn" or "Prince Charles" Calzaghe. At 168 or 175 Toney could hammer people.

While Joe's reflexes and speed are up there with RJJ's, I don't think he would be on his bike like RJJ; that's not how Joe seems to fight, which could hurt him in this matchup, because you KNOW he's not stopping Toney.

[paulfv]

Toney isn't Jeff Lacy or Byron Mitchell,


Ha ha! No, he sure isn't.

And that made me think of what a matchup between Toney and Lacy would look like.

Toney would be in full sh*t-talking mode, just toying with Lacy until JT decided to lower the boom. That would be like some Trinidad-Reid stuff. I would pay money to see that fight, or I would have.

[Fab2333]

Joe's reflexes and speed are up there with RJJ's,

I dont think so, RJ extends his arms when he punches ad had that kind of speed and power behind his punched. Joe Calzaghe hands are no way near as fast as RJ. And plus he dont got no power behind them, he slaps people to death. I think he throws a lot of pitty apt punches, RJ punches came with power. And the speed and especialy reflexes, Calzaghe dont got that im sorry

[BlueApollo]

Off topic, but damn did James brutalize people.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe's reflexes (his brain responding to stimuli) are up there with Roy's but Roy has more explosive speed right throughout his body -fullstop-

[Jinx]

Toney isn't Jeff Lacy or Byron Mitchell, Calzaghe isn't going to hit him at will like he did those guys.

hell Mitchell damn near had Calzaghe KTFO... that was a bullshit stoppage like many of Calzaghe's fights...Calzaghe lands a few slaps, Mitchell trips over his own feet, and the ref quickly jumps in...and this happened seconds after Mitchell was blasting Calzaghe...no way Calzaghe lasts the distance against Toney, who was just as strong as Mitchell at 168, with more skill and chin...

[McGrain]

I guess I pick Toney. I think they're earily similair in terms of quality, but I suppose Toney has proven it a bit more.

I voted for Toney UD, but I wouldn't be placing any money.

[Amsterdam]

hell Mitchell damn near had Calzaghe KTFO... that was a bullshit stoppage like many of Calzaghe's fights...Calzaghe lands a few slaps, Mitchell trips over his own feet, and the ref quickly jumps in...and this happened seconds after Mitchell was blasting Calzaghe...no way Calzaghe lasts the distance against Toney, who was just as strong as Mitchell at 168, with more skill and chin...

Nearly had him out? He was flash KD'd, a shot that he walked into(Mitchell was known for punching very hard) and a shot with enough impact to spin his head and entire body around, yet he's up immediatley and finishes him off.

It appeared a bit early, but Mitchell was done in mate, a few more shots and that would have been it.

I'm not comparing Mitchell to Toney, I'm just saying that power wise, Mitchell was known as a 1 punch KO hitter, just wasn't a fast guy, but that was a perfect shot that Joe walked right into and didn't see...

He was not even that buzzed, that shows a great chin.

[Amsterdam]

Joe's hands are definitely as fast, but Jones was more fluent and had a lot more power. Calzaghe slaps for the most part but in Meldrick like speed(maybe not quite that fast), while Roy threw power punches. Jones was better than JC, but still Toney has problems with fast movers.

Jones' definitley has faster hands because he's putting more into it, but Calzaghe doesn't just chop(or slap), he throws a lot of orthodox punches in the mix as well and some non-chopping unorthodox blows also, he threw some wildly(but tight)angled punches against Mitchell and Lacy(off the ropes especially) and was in different spots before they knew where he was.

Toney's just not active enough.

I'd rate Calzaghe's raw footspeed to be slightly better, with Jones' upper body agility to be better.

The speed's even up...

[Fab2333]

When I say Calzaghe has as fast hands, I mean normally he is throwing a lot more punches in a short span of time. He is constantly throwing fast combos when up close, kinda like Meldrick. Jones would throw big shots, and very fast, too fast to escape, but didn't throw the swarming combos like Joe cuz that just wasn't his style.

I think Joe is more eratic too, Jones was very fluent. Joe had quicker footspeed because that was his style, but Jones was so fluid and knew exactly when to move in and out and everything, he could move and see things in the ring and act on them better than anyone I've ever seen.

thanks sweet pea thats wat i was tryin to explain in my previous posts, Joe calzaghe throws his hands fast when he is in close, and they dont reeally have any power. UNlike Jones threw combinations like no other from the outside with precision and power. Thats why I say his handspeed isnt like RJ, when you in close anyone can move their hands fast and land some pittypat punches. RJ's was fast and powerful

[China_hand_Joe]

The aren't pittypat punches, look at Joe's subtle body movements as he throws them -fullstop- There is some sublime technique involved -fullstop-

[Jinx]

Joe's hands are definitely as fast, but Jones was more fluent and had a lot more power.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Calzaghe's hands are just as fast as a prime Jones at 168?! please save me some of that vicious blunt you are smokin!:patsch

[Jinx]

:patsch I posted that fight a day ago, re-watch it if you think he tripped over his own feet, he was badly stunnd and getting pounded. He got dropped by a fighter with big one hit power and got right back up and finished him and you're gonna give him shit about it?

I guess no way Toney lasts the distance with Calzaghe either considering he got dropped and badly hurt by Reggie Johnson. That's about as smart as your logic.

it was an early stoppage, get over it...Mitchell was more off-balance than hurt...kinda like when Briggs caught Lewis, it looked like Lewis was badly stunned, but he was really just off-balance...

[China_hand_Joe]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Calzaghe's hands are just as fast as a prime Jones at 168?! please save me some of that vicious blunt you are smokin!:patschWatch a video of Calzaghe in the Lacy fight, he looks like Roy Jones in fast-motion at times -fullstop- The straight one-twos are as fast as anything Jones could throw -fullstop- Jones just has the better lunging punches resulting from his superior agility in the torso -fullstop- I guarentee you too, Jones could not slap as fast as Joe -fullstop-

[Fab2333]

Basically, but you're selling Joe short calling his punches pitty pats that anyone can do. Most can move their hands fast, but Joe will hit you at all angles at whatever is open in a very fast span of time. They may not be the most powerful punches, but his overall speed on them is top notch, and not just anybody can do what he does.

ok maybe his hands are fast, but he not hurting nobody with them. Way less power than RJ with his combinations. BUt the other things you say about Joe I can agree with

[CASH_718]

:patsch I posted that fight a day ago, re-watch it if you think he tripped over his own feet, he was badly stunnd and getting pounded. He got dropped by a fighter with big one hit power and got right back up and finished him and you're gonna give him shit about it?

I guess no way Toney lasts the distance with Calzaghe either considering he got dropped and badly hurt by Reggie Johnson. That's about as smart as your logic.No your's is alot stupider.

[CASH_718]

How so? Please explain. His logic was ridiculous and made no sense. Calzaghe got dropped and immediately KO'd the guy, and this guy says since he got dropped no way he can last with Toney. What kind of BS logic is that?Toney's been in against heavyweights and hasn't gottin dropped.

Mitchell might be the hardest puncher Calazghe's faced and got dropped by him.

Calazghe also got dropped by Salem.:oops:

[Jinx]

How so? Please explain. His logic was ridiculous and made no sense. Calzaghe got dropped and immediately KO'd the guy, and this guy says since he got dropped no way he can last with Toney. What kind of BS logic is that?

i wasn't saying that Calzaghe can't beat Toney because he got dropped...in an earlier post i already said why Calzaghe wouldn't beat Toney, because Toney would counterpunch the hell out of Calzaghe...that's what i was referring to when i said "no way he beats Toney"...

[China_hand_Joe]

Toney's been in against heavyweights and hasn't gottin dropped.

Mitchell might be the hardest puncher Calazghe's faced and got dropped by him.

Calazghe also got dropped by Salem.:oops:Go and watch the Eubank and Reid fights before you comment on Joe's punch resistance --fullstop- Whilst Joe isn't really at all vunerable to being KO'd, James Toney has been repeatedly out-scored by elite fighters, there is nothing to suggest he could turn the tide on Calzaghe in that respect -fullstop-

[Jinx]

And I'vd rebutted this point at least 5 times in this thread. Effectively counter-punching fast in and out swarmers is damn near impossible. You may hit them with some good shots, but you will get outlanded big time.

you are severely overrating Calzaghe's handspeed, and you act like Toney was slow at 168...of course Calzaghe looked like Roy Jones against Lacy, because Lacy is slow as dirt with his hands and feet...Calzaghe ain't even the fastest at 168 right now, that would be Mundine, who has Roy Jones-type speed...

Calzaghe is no master boxer, if so he would've have struggled against Robin Reid like he did...Toney has beaten a better boxer than Calzaghe at 168, Michael Nunn...Calzaghe ain't gonna outwork Toney because Toney ain't gonna respect them slaps coming from him...Toney will punch WITH Calzaghe, and his shots will have more power...Toney TKO 10

[China_hand_Joe]

Most fighters would have lost to Robin Reid on an off day -fullstop- And we are talking about a fairly green Calzaghe here, the Reid fight made Calzaghe the fighter he is today -fullstop-

[Amsterdam]

you are severely overrating Calzaghe's handspeed, and you act like Toney was slow at 168...of course Calzaghe looked like Roy Jones against Lacy, because Lacy is slow as dirt with his hands and feet...Calzaghe ain't even the fastest at 168 right now, that would be Mundine, who has Roy Jones-type speed...

Calzaghe is no master boxer, if so he would've have struggled against Robin Reid like he did...Toney has beaten a better boxer than Calzaghe at 168, Michael Nunn...Calzaghe ain't gonna outwork Toney because Toney ain't gonna respect them slaps coming from him...Toney will punch WITH Calzaghe, and his shots will have more power...Toney TKO 10

Mate, he had some rough spots with Reid, it was also an off night at that, but there was no way he overall struggled with Reid. The "SD" was ridiculous at it's own point, because the two judges who had it 116-111 were well on target, it was 8-4 Calzaghe and as clear as day.

Reid at his best was a top class fighter also, he was robbed against Ottke, a fight where Reid sealed that one 8-4 himself. Reid was iron chinned and a strong counter puncher with a faboulous lead right hand, he also was an immovable boulder of a man and kept pace the entire fight.

Reid and Toney are totally different fighters, but Reid's over hand right landing well on Calzaghe is a show of why JONES defeats Calzaghe, not why TONEY defeats Calzaghe.

If you want to go at it from that perspective, how about James losing to Thadzi?

[China_hand_Joe]

JONES defeats Calzaghe, not why TONEY defeats Calzaghe.
1st prime Calzaghe -fullstop-

[Jinx]

Nunn wasn't better than Calzaghe

didn't say Nunn was better, just that he was a better BOXER in style...Calzaghe is overrated as a technician because of the Lacy fight, but he's really just a good athlete with speed, smarts, and physical strength...

And please stop with the "he won't respect his power" bullshit, that's the STUPIDEST cliche among boxing fans. I'm sure nobody ever respected Whitaker's power, so why was he so good? It matters how you box, not what power you have. It's not like Joe has no power and Toney's just gonna walk right through his shots.

Calzaghe is nowhere near a Whitaker-level technician...Calzaghe flurries with speedy slaps, and he has pretty good athleticism, that doesn't equal a good boxer...Toney was much busier with his hands and feet at 168 than he was at the higher weights, where he got lazy sometimes...i don't think Calzaghe would've beaten a prime Montell Griffin at 175 anyway...but like i said, Toney would've exchanged with Calzaghe, and Toney is no Lacy so Calzaghe is not going to be allowed to have the distance he had with Lacy, who has zero clue how to box(cut the ring off, slip punches, slip a jab, etc)...

[Jinx]

Mate, he had some rough spots with Reid, it was also an off night at that, but there was no way he overall struggled with Reid. The "SD" was ridiculous at it's own point, because the two judges who had it 116-111 were well on target, it was 8-4 Calzaghe and as clear as day.

Reid at his best was a top class fighter also, he was robbed against Ottke, a fight where Reid sealed that one 8-4 himself. Reid was iron chinned and a strong counter puncher with a faboulous lead right hand, he also was an immovable boulder of a man and kept pace the entire fight.

Reid and Toney are totally different fighters, but Reid's over hand right landing well on Calzaghe is a show of why JONES defeats Calzaghe, not why TONEY defeats Calzaghe.

If you want to go at it from that perspective, how about James losing to Thadzi?

i'm not convinced that Reid was a world-beater at any point in his career...Sven Ottke is the biggest fraud ever with an undefeated record...fuckin Charles Brewer beat Ottke twice, and was robbed...Byron Mitchell also should've gotten the nod...and these are the best names on Ottke's resume!

and about Toney losing to Thadzi, well that was at 175 and we're talking about the 168 version of Toney whose only lost was to Roy Jones...

[Mind Reader]

Ill take Toney in this one.

[dodong]

If you think that JC and RJJ are the same level in their prime, then JC would also get a UD. I don't, so Toney with a UD at least.

[paulfv]

Calzaghe is ... really just a good athlete with speed, smarts, and physical strength...

Calzaghe ... has pretty good athleticism, that doesn't equal a good boxer...
Wait, are you trying to tell me Joe Calzaghe is Jermaine Taylor? Joe jabs more times in one fight than Roy Jones has in his entire career.

i don't think Calzaghe would've beaten a prime Montell Griffin at 175 anyway

I like Montell; I mean how many guys can say they beat both Toney and RJJ? Still, Calzaghe would have whipped his @ss, even at 175.

As some have mentioned in the thread, Mundine is faster than Calzaghe, and might be more comparable to Jones in terms of pure 'fast twitch' movements. Calzaghe is right behind them, though, and he is much more of a straight-ahead and throws more-sustained, more technically-proficient combinations than does RJJ. Calzaghe will throw 2 jabs, a straight left and a right hook whereas Jones will throw a leaping lead right hook followed by a left. Jones often throws fewer punches in most of his combinations than does Calzaghe, so it stands to reason he 'loads up' on his shots more than does JC.

JC used to throw harder, I believe, early in his career but I think a number of hand injuries made him change his style to more of the rat-a-tat-tat which he uses now.

JC's chin reminds me of Trinidad's, where he just seems to get annoyed when he's knocked down (usually from being off balance). Roy's chin? Well, that's a different story. Suffice to say, Joe hasn't been in any 15 minute, everyone-holding-their-breath incidences, and he's never been KO'd by 1 punch, let alone having that done to him twice.

I would have LOVED to see the two fight. There is no question JC could have landed on RJJ, given his speed. And with that fine piece of china directly underneath RJJ's mouth, the results could have been most explosive.

If they fight now, though. It would just be sad. Joe has held up a lot better than RJJ.

[China_hand_Joe]

Robin Reid is better than James Toney?

Are we talking about the same guy that I saw Lacey beat like red headed step child in Tampa before 20,000 at the forum?

You must be kidding.Robin Reid was never given a master-class in boxing from Samuel Peters -fullstop-

[China_hand_Joe]

Assuming we're still talking about Joe Calzaghe and not E. Honda, I think a pinpoint lead hook to the body followed by an uppercut to the head, repeated over and over between, through, and around each "lightning slap", would do the trick.
Meanwhile Calzaghe's straight left comes across and sends Toney stumbling (or down), Calzaghe then follows it up with a flurry of 20 harmless slaps on the dazed Toney when the referee jumps in -fullstop-

[K0NPHL1C7]

Calzaghe's "flurries" would have no effect of Toney, where he "leans" away from shots, while Calzaghe shoots from the hips. The slaps would be landing mainly on Toney's shoulder, and countered rather easily by the overhand right. Toney would layhim out quite easily with I would say 4 rounds.
Robin Reid was never given a master-class in boxing from Samuel Peters -fullstop-
He never fought Sam Peter at 40 years old and 60 lbs over his prime either. Not to mention, Toney gave Peter a master class in boxing in their first fight, as he did so many other fighters in his past.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe once made Peter quit in sparring -fullstop-

[K0NPHL1C7]

Calzaghe once made Peter quit in sparring -fullstop-

Sometimes when camping, I get sick and tired of the black flys and I retire to my tent.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe Calzaghe at 50 wouldn't be out boxed by Peter, smashed up maybe, but not out boxed!

[MrSmall]

Toney kicks his funky Welsh ass, even though I find Joe much more personable he isn't up to Toney.

[K0NPHL1C7]

Joe Calzaghe at 50 wouldn't be out boxed by Peter, smashed up maybe, but not out boxed!

Joe C at 230 lbs, 40 years old, wouldn't be able to wildy slap his hands nearly as fast as he does now. The Sam Peter that beat toney in the second fight boxed better than I have ever seen Joe C. His punches were landing at the knuckle, and doing so with power. His shots were crisp, his leg movment was textbook, and his abilty to adapt was supurb. And by the way, I hate Sam Peter.

[Max Molyneux]

Calzaghe once made Peter quit in sparring -fullstop-

When?

[China_hand_Joe]

When?Back when Peters was preparing to beat Toney a second time, Joe was in the US promoting the fight with American superstar Peter Manfredo Jr -fullstop-

[KO Boxing]

promoting the fight with American superstar Peter Manfredo Jr -fullstop-
I'm ever so slowly coming around... :good

[KO Boxing]

By the way, the poll's rather close at the moment. Slight edge to Toney, although the favourite pick is Calzaghe by decision...

Good fight!

[charlievint]

Which of James Toney's classical boxing manuevers would he use to counter a lightning combination of half a dozen slaps exactly -questionmark-

#1 Joe couldn't hurt James to begin with...so "Slaps" wouldn't be anything but annoying to James (although you don't give your boy Joe enough credit for his power)

#2 While Joe is fast at the lower wieghts James was not slow himself and he is far the more superior counter puncher and defensive wizard.

All of which point to an obvious outcome with James being the clear winner.

[ApatheticLeader]

Ill go with the same..Its a style mismatch for Toney, his stationary, footless defense would not be able to keep up with Calzaghe although he might take over on a couple exchanges..Ill say Calzxaghe takes it 7-5 With Toney startign to get a feel later into the fight but not enough to take it over. This is the way I see it.

[ApatheticLeader]

#1 Joe couldn't hurt James to begin with...so "Slaps" wouldn't be anything but annoying to James (although you don't give your boy Joe enough credit for his power)

#2 While Joe is fast at the lower wieghts James was not slow himself and he is far the more superior counter puncher and defensive wizard.

All of which point to an obvious outcome with James being the clear winner. It will be much harder for Toney to counterpunch somebody who uses their feet and throws fast combos. The amount of true power there is behind those punches isn't that relevant - as long as they aren't Ottke-powered punches, Toney would struggle. Toney has been outboxed in his prime by skilled fighters with footwork.

[charlievint]

It will be much harder for Toney to counterpunch somebody who uses their feet and throws fast combos. The amount of true power there is behind those punches isn't that relevant - as long as they aren't Ottke-powered punches, Toney would struggle. Toney has been outboxed in his prime by skilled fighters with footwork.

Very very true....but everyone is saying that with the mindset of James Toney today....Back at 168 JT was swift on his feet, a lot faster and used his legs a lot better than what we are use to seeing with him at HW.

Most of the time that JT was outboxed in his prime were cases where he was REALLY sturggling with trainig and making weight. Which showed in his preformances...he was slower, sluggish...although he still had his skills in tact, he was less mobile and agile.

But we are talking PRIME for PRIME and best case senario for both men....with that said the very best JT beats the very best Joe C.