How many heavyweights could have put Ketchel away like Jack Johnson did?

[janitor]

Jack Johnsons dramatic demolition of Stanley Ketchel is often dismissed because of Ketchels size but how many heavyweights could actualy have done it?

Johnson destroyed a durable middleweight who had taken heavyweight punches in literaly a few seconds with one combination.

[Dempsey1238]

Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, Maybe Ali if he choose to blast Ketchel out instand of playing around.

Mike Tyson, Lewis, and a few others perhaps.

[janitor]

Could anybody have done it who was not a renowned heavyweight puncher?

[JohnThomas1]

Stacks.

[janitor]

Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, Maybe Ali if he choose to blast Ketchel out instand of playing around.

Mike Tyson, Lewis, and a few others perhaps.

Ali probably wouldnt do it because he did not have enough power. We could say as a working asumption that Ketchel was at least as durable as Bob Foster.

Even sombody like Marciano or Frazier might need a couple of rounds to do it.

[Seamus]

Dozens of current fighters, heavyweight and under.

[janitor]

Dozens of current fighters, heavyweight and under.

They are going to put away this iron jawed middleweight in under 15 seconds including the count?

Lets be generous and say this is Kelly Pavlik. Who is going to do it?

[Seamus]

Iron jawed at 160 or even the fat 170 he rose to does not equal iron jawed vs. 210 lb'ers and up.

It's been a long time, but I remember sparring against small heavies when I was a kid and weighed about 155. I could not believe how much harder they punched. It felt like the roof falling on my head. I will say that Johnson landed a beauty of a punch, though.

[McGrain]

Iron jawed at 160 or even the fat 170 he rose to does not equal iron jawed vs. 210 lb'ers and up.

It's been a long time, but I remember sparring against small heavies when I was a kid and weighed about 155. I could not believe how much harder they punched. It felt like the roof falling on my head. I will say that Johnson landed a beauty of a punch, though.

I agree with this post.

But it is interesting in what it indicates with regards to the sort of gears Johnson had available to him - what % to you guys speculate he was fighting Ketchel at if, when angered he literally ends the fight there and then? It speaks of serious depths of talent as well as precision and power.

[rekcutnevets]

David Haye, Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, Tommy Morrison, Razor Ruddock, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Bert Cooper, Michael Moorer, David Tua, James Shith, Mike Weaver, Gerry Cooney, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Archie Moore, Lionel Butler, Floyd Patterson, Ingamar Johanson, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Max Baer, Jack Dempsey

That's off the top of my head

[punchy]

Jack Johnsons dramatic demolition of Stanley Ketchel is often dismissed because of Ketchels size but how many heavyweights could actualy have done it?

Johnson destroyed a durable middleweight who had taken heavyweight punches in literaly a few seconds with one combination.


Ketchel walked in trying to finish Johnson but I agree very few could have done what Johnson did especially after being knocked down himself, Johnson is underated by many but before Louis was the best heavyweight in history.

[Brian123]

The fight went 12 rounds!

Ketchel had not fought another HW, was 23, gave up 35 poundsand 4'5 inches and had fought Johnson to a draw at that point.

If he had eased into the HW scene he could have beaten smaller greats I'm sure, of today and yesterday. Then again he was only 160 so maybe he could not bulk up at all (at least not the right way).

[Seamus]

Of the great olden-timey fighters, Ketchell impresses me least with the potential transfer of his game to modern fistiana.

[McGrain]

Of the great olden-timey fighters, Ketchell impresses me least with the potential transfer of his game to modern fistiana.

Why, particularly?

I would say a huge punch and iron jaw are basically a direct passage to title challanges these days. What is it about him, particularly, that makes you think he would fail?

[janitor]

Iron jawed at 160 or even the fat 170 he rose to does not equal iron jawed vs. 210 lb'ers and up.

It's been a long time, but I remember sparring against small heavies when I was a kid and weighed about 155. I could not believe how much harder they punched. It felt like the roof falling on my head. I will say that Johnson landed a beauty of a punch, though.

I dont doubt that Ketchels chin would have fallen off considerably at heavyweight but that dose not necisarily translate into his being destroyed in a matter of seconds with a single combination.

There is quite a big leap between having an iron jaw a t middleweight and being put away in that manner.

[janitor]

David Haye, Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, Tommy Morrison, Razor Ruddock, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Bert Cooper, Michael Moorer, David Tua, James Shith, Mike Weaver, Gerry Cooney, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Archie Moore, Lionel Butler, Floyd Patterson, Ingamar Johanson, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Max Baer, Jack Dempsey

That's off the top of my head

I dont think that you sincerely believe that everybody on this list would ice Stanley Ketchel in a matter of a few seconds.

That just isnt realistic.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by janitor
I dont think that you sincerely believe that everybody on this list would ice Stanley Ketchel in a matter of a few seconds.

That just isnt realistic.
I don't think you sincerely doubt their ability to ice Stanley Ketchel if they were to catch him flush with their best right left combination. Before you say you doubt those fighters could knock out 160 lb. Ketchel with their best shots, think about what you're saying. It's not as though Johnson did anything special to set up those shots. Johnson was floored. Then an angry Johnson, which no matter how angry hits harder than the fighters I mentioned, walked across the ring an knocked Ketchel out.

[janitor]

I don't think you sincerely doubt their ability to ice Stanley Ketchel if they were to catch him flush with their best right left combination. Before you say you doubt those fighters could knock out 160 lb. Ketchel with their best shots, think about what you're saying. It's not as though Johnson did anything special to set up those shots. Johnson was floored. Then an angry Johnson, which no matter how angry hits harder than the fighters I mentioned, walked across the ring an knocked Ketchel out.

We are trying to asess Johnsons finishing ability based on this performance to to asume that other people would do it on the basis that Johnson did it is circular and unhelpfull.

[Seamus]

This thread stinks of a bend-over-backwards attempt to glorify a journeymen's day of work for Johnson, a 12th rd. KO of a middleweight.

If WK took 12 rounds to KO Pavlik, he would be excoriated.

If he were KD'd in the process he would be laughed out of the sport.

[janitor]

This thread stinks of a bend-over-backwards attempt to glorify a journeymen's day of work for Johnson, a 12th rd. KO of a middleweight.

If WK took 12 rounds to KO Pavlik, he would be excoriated.

If he were KD'd in the process he would be laughed out of the sport.

It would depend whether he carried him or not.

The reason I am posing this question is that some historians have claimed that Jack Johnson had power comparable to Joe Louis when he decided to cut loose.

While he did display impresive finishing ability in some fights this is the only example of it on film.

So how good is it?

[Mendoza]

Jack Johnsons dramatic demolition of Stanley Ketchel is often dismissed because of Ketchels size but how many heavyweights could actualy have done it?

Johnson destroyed a durable middleweight who had taken heavyweight punches in literaly a few seconds with one combination.

Most past champions could have done the same, and would have needed less rounds.

[mcvey]

It would depend whether he carried him or not.

The reason I am posing this question is that some historians have claimed that Jack Johnson had power comparable to Joe Louis when he decided to cut loose.

While he did display impresive finishing ability in some fights this is the only example of it on film.

So how good is it?
If any one, barring .Mendoza ,can watch this fight and NOT acknowledge that Johnson is carrying Ketchel,there is no hope for them as far as reading a fight goes.I think Janitor is trying to get posters to give an opinion on A Johnson's power ,when motivated,and B how it stacks up against other heavy champs.Johnson weighed 205 1/2 and Ketchel 170 1/4,so roughly 30lbs disparity,Johnson was NEVER noted as a banger.Lets go a step further Joe Louis WHO WAS CELEBRATED AS A BANGER,and rightfully so ,takes on Billy Conn who weighed 169 ,though it was given as 174,Louis comes in at 1991/2,same weight disparity,Conn goes 12 rds and hurts Louis on at least two occasions before getting cocky and bombed out .Compare Ketchel ,an all time great puncher who twice kod the reigning LH Champ O Brien,being destroyed with ONe -punch and Conn being kod with a salvo from the Brown Bomber,Louis gets credit for grabbing victory from the jaws of defeat .Johnson gets slagged for taking on and koing Ketchel WITH ONE PUNCH.

[janitor]

Most past champions could have done the same, and would have needed less rounds.

I dont doubt that many heavyweights could have stopped Ketchel but how many could do it that quickly and brutaly?

[Mendoza]

If any one, barring .Mendoza ,can watch this fight and NOT acknowledge that Johnson is carrying Ketchel,there is no hope for them as far as reading a fight goes.I think Janitor is trying to get posters to give an opinion on A Johnson's power ,when motivated,and B how it stacks up against other heavy champs.Johnson weighed 205 1/2 and Ketchel 170 1/4,so roughly 30lbs disparity,Johnson was NEVER noted as a banger.Lets go a step further Joe Louis WHO WAS CELEBRATED AS A BANGER,and rightfully so ,takes on Billy Conn who weighed 169 ,though it was given as 174,Louis comes in at 1991/2,same weight disparity,Conn goes 12 rds and hurts Louis on at least two occasions before getting cocky and bombed out .Compare Ketchel ,an all time great puncher who twice kod the reigning LH Champ O Brien,being destroyed with ONe -punch and Conn being kod with a salvo from the Brown Bomber,Louis gets credit for grabbing victory from the jaws of defeat .Johnson gets slagged for taking on and koing Ketchel WITH ONE PUNCH.


Johnson liked to toy around with guys when things were going his way, but I'm not sure he wasn't trying to win rounds, or pulling punches. The fight was not close.

I think Johnson had solid power. Say on Holmes or Ali's level.

Conn to me was much track down and hit then Ketchel, but I do hold it against Louis because and almost had him beat. Check that, Louis was close to going down and was staggered by non-punching supper middle.

[janitor]

I think Johnson had solid power. Say on Holmes or Ali's level.


I think better of it than that.

I would rate his power better than Holmes and perhaps comparable to Max Schmeling or Joe Walcott.

Defensive fighters who could bang are a bit of an old phenomenon.

[prime]

Johnson's icing of Ketchell has always been evidence to me of Lil' Arthur's greatness.

As was customary to him, Johnson was most definitely carrying the Michigan Assassin, content to win by decision. When Ketchell wakes him up with that overhand right, Johnson does EXACTLY what a true heavyweight great would to any middleweight, no matter how great: place him flat on his back with one tremendous punch, which by the way requires not just brute strength but killer instinct and great accuracy.

Talk about instant redemption via an unquestionable flourish of ability!