Rocky Marciano on Sonny Liston [Archive]

McGrain

10-05-2008, 05:41 PM

Liston was 23-1 at the time of Rocky's remarks in the wake of the DeJohn fight(Febuary of 1959), greenish, but on his way up.

"His left jab is the best of any fighter i've seen since Louis. This fellow gets real force into his jabs like Joe used to do. He's great, just great. The left jab set up DeJohn. Then Liston cut him down with a body attack. To me, he appeared a more effective body puncher than Charles. I would have to say Ez is a better boxer. I thought Liston looped his punches more than he should. He should shorten 'em up more. He can move faster than Jersey Joe. I'd rank Liston no.2, right behind the Swede (Johansson). I don't know [if he can take a punch]. He really didn't have to fighting DeJohn. A couple of uppercuts shoock. He leggs wobbled but he came right back again."

Good read on Liston, and enormous praise...he comes of favourably being compared to Louis, Charles and Walcott...this is the opposite of what we often see from former fighters who try to "big up" their own victims at the expense of current contenders. Especially interesting that Sonny's reign of terror (Williams x2, Folley, Machen, Valdes) hadn't really begun.

Rocky also said he wouldn't fancy fighting Liston, but we all know he would have fought a real bear if they put gloves on the thing.

Thoughts?

Russell

10-05-2008, 05:53 PM

Ah, I almost thought Marciano might say something that he had fed to him about the fabricated monster that as Sonny Liston. But it seems that he said what he believed and nothing but.

janitor

10-05-2008, 05:59 PM

Marciano tended to be polite about subsequent champions but this is particularly interesting because Liston was an unpolished stone at the time of these coments. Marciano had no reason to over rate him.

Even at this stage of Listons career a guy who had fought as many oponents as Marciano would see things that the casual non boxing observer wouldnt. It is often the case that a former champion is the first to spot the potential of an up and coming fighter.

Of course Rocky didnt always get it right. He thought at one point that Charley Powel would be the heir to his throne.

McGrain

10-05-2008, 06:21 PM

The might Charles Powell. Yeah, Liston had certainly noticed. He'd been Ring's HW prospect of the year, I think 2 years earlier and there had already been moves to a Patterson fight - 250k, sniffed at by Cus - but I don't think he'd been spoken about in these glowing terms. Rocky said he would be "ready for Patterson within a year".

ChrisPontius

10-05-2008, 07:47 PM

Interesting comments, especially the one where he says Liston moves faster than Jersey Joe. It's also interesting that he questions Sonny's ability to take a punch. Dempsey did so too, (OLD FOGEY has a few articles on that one) as did a few others.

He ranks him behind Johansson. Too bad they never squared off.

SuzieQ49

10-05-2008, 07:58 PM

He ranks him behind Johansson. Too bad they never squared off.

easy liston victory. johannson had a glass jaw and is one of the most overated fighters on ESB. floyd patterson twice starched him. Joh would have done no different vs liston than patterson folley valdez or williams.

good read though mcgrain never seen this one before

The Predator

10-06-2008, 12:49 AM

Hydraulix

10-06-2008, 01:06 AM

Thanks for posting Rocky's comments on Liston. I never knew what The Rock thought of the "Big Bad Ugly Bear."
Thanks for the info :)

Marciano Frazier

10-06-2008, 01:58 AM

Mostly a good and interesting analysis, though I think he was being a bit ridiculous with the "moves faster than Jersey Joe" remark.

Arka

10-06-2008, 03:12 AM

Mostly a good and interesting analysis, though I think he was being a bit ridiculous with the "moves faster than Jersey Joe" remark.

Liston was had reasonably fast footwork early in his career.I don't think the Patterson/Ali fights would give a good indication of this.

Loewe

10-06-2008, 04:10 AM

easy liston victory. johannson had a glass jaw and is one of the most overated fighters on ESB. floyd patterson twice starched him. Joh would have done no different vs liston than patterson folley valdez or williams.

good read though mcgrain never seen this one before

We never agree on anthing it seems :lol: While I agree that Liston would beat Johannson, it would be a good to great fight. I don´t think Johannson had a glass jaw, Patterson was a very hard puncher, especially for his size, and had the fastest hands of all hws. Getting KOed by him is not an indication of a glass jaw. :-( How can he be one of the most overrated fighters on esb? He is never even discussed.

Good read, McGrain, and imo the Rock was right on the button.

fists of fury

10-06-2008, 04:30 AM

His comments seem contradictory though.

Years later, he would go on record as strongly questioning Liston's heart. (This was before the Ali fights)

McGrain

10-06-2008, 04:50 AM

Well.
My father that was a BIG fan of boxing told me that Johansson was asked if he would like to fight Liston. His answer was:
Do you think I´m crazy!?

Don´t know how true it is but to be honest I can´t see Ingemar win that fight, Liston was to strong and hardhitting. Why Ali won over Liston was his incredible speed, Johansson didn´t have that. No one did.
All the best
The Predator

Johansson was looking for Sonny after he lost his third fight with Patterson. There was some pretty serious money involved - but the fight was to be held in Scandanavia in front of some 60,000. Liston was pretty close to Patterson at that precise time and it was decided that Liston wouldn't fight him. Certainly not a duck, but it was a dodge.

Johansson wasn't interested in fighting Liston before he lost to Patterson though.

McGrain

10-06-2008, 04:52 AM

good read though mcgrain never seen this one before

You ever heard that Rocky was briefly connected with managing Sonny? After Sonny's management publicly (though not privately) walked away so Sonny could get the title shot, Marciano is supposed to have been breifly linked with the role. But I don't know.

McGrain

10-06-2008, 04:54 AM

Mostly a good and interesting analysis, though I think he was being a bit ridiculous with the "moves faster than Jersey Joe" remark.

Liston used to commit suddenly and sharply though, with a sort of pounce. Maybe Rocky was refering to this.

McGrain

10-06-2008, 04:55 AM

His comments seem contradictory though.

Years later, he would go on record as strongly questioning Liston's heart. (This was before the Ali fights)

I wonder what changed in between? All Liston really did in between was batter guys.

Loewe

10-06-2008, 04:59 AM

I read yesterday that the IBC controlled every hw champ between Louis and Patterson and that they had mob connections. Has anybody more infos on that?

janitor

10-06-2008, 05:17 AM

[quote=ChrisPontius]Interesting comments, especially the one where he says Liston moves faster than Jersey Joe. It's also interesting that he questions Sonny's ability to take a punch. Dempsey did so too, (OLD FOGEY has a few articles on that one) as did a few others.

Personaly I always question sombodys ability to take a punch untill it is proven by practical experiment.

He ranks him behind Johansson. Too bad they never squared off.

That was eminently prudent so early in his career with so many unknowns.

McGrain

10-06-2008, 05:21 AM

Yeah, the IBC had mob connections.

Basically the manager's guild was striking, striking, striking in order to trap television money. To protect itself from this the IBC jumped into bed with Blinkey Palermo, or, to be more exact, his boss's wife, who they actually hired to work with the organisation. Though she didn't actually do any work. If I remember correctly, this was actually exposed in court.

I think it's fair to say Blinky Palermo - and his boss, a man of an alltogether more disturbing pathology - was running boxing by 1947, he was running Jacobs by then. This lasted until the IBC was broken down a few years later, although it's probable that these two, Carbo and Palermo, were the most important men in boxing until Ali beat Liston the second time.

ChrisPontius

10-06-2008, 05:21 AM

easy liston victory. johannson had a glass jaw and is one of the most overated fighters on ESB. floyd patterson twice starched him. Joh would have done no different vs liston than patterson folley valdez or williams.

good read though mcgrain never seen this one before

Well, Johansson would by far be the best opponent Liston had ever faced up until that point, so i definitely wouldn't write him off. He was undefeated, he had demolished the European boxing scene, destroyed Machen in 1 (went the distance with Liston), and of course Patterson. Maybe the fight would've been over early; maybe not. Either way, i would love to see it.

McGrain

10-06-2008, 05:24 AM

Well, Johansson would by far be the best opponent Liston had ever faced up until that point, so i definitely wouldn't write him off. He was undefeated, he had demolished the European boxing scene, destroyed Machen in 1 (went the distance with Liston), and of course Patterson. Maybe the fight would've been over early; maybe not. Either way, i would love to see it.

I think Liston would have struggled with Johansson, but I also think he would have KO'd him. Johannson is good with range and Patterson was only able to neutralise this with fast hands and feet, which Sonny is missing. I don't think it would have been a great fight, I think it would have been a bit short on action until the KO.

fists of fury

10-06-2008, 05:24 AM

I read yesterday that the IBC controlled every hw champ between Louis and Patterson and that they had mob connections. Has anybody more infos on that?

I've heard it said that Jersey Joe may (note: may) have had ties to the mob, but as far as I know nothing concrete was ever proved.

Charles? Never heard anything.

Marciano, despite being a prime candidate, was by all accounts definitely NOT mob controlled. The reasons are many, but for one they viewed him as "hands off" because of him being an Italian and a hero to Italians. The mobsters didn't want to taint Marciano, funnily enough.

He did become friendly with many known mobsters after retirement, but it's been well established that their friendship was personal and not business.

He was however approached to throw a fight once, and he chased the man away saying he was ashamed they shared a heritage.

fists of fury

10-06-2008, 05:26 AM

Yeah, the IBC had mob connections.

I think it's fair to say Blinky Palermo - and his boss, a man of an alltogether more disturbing pathology - was running boxing by 1947, he was running Jacobs by then. This lasted until the IBC was broken down a few years later, although it's probable that these two, Carbo and Palermo, were the most important men in boxing until Ali beat Liston the second time.

I've read the same thing.

fists of fury

10-06-2008, 05:27 AM

I wonder what changed in between? All Liston really did in between was batter guys.

I have no idea. Maybe a gut feel or something. Who knows?

janitor

10-06-2008, 05:40 AM

Well, Johansson would by far be the best opponent Liston had ever faced up until that point, so i definitely wouldn't write him off. He was undefeated, he had demolished the European boxing scene, destroyed Machen in 1 (went the distance with Liston), and of course Patterson. Maybe the fight would've been over early; maybe not. Either way, i would love to see it.

The trouble with Johansen is that he has the best right hand in the history of the sport and not much else.

He won all his major fights by putting his oponent on queer street with that short right and then finishing them. This is probably the only way he could beat Liston.

You have to ask what his chances are of putting Liston in trouble with one short right. Once Liston klnows that his right is his primary weapon the chances of landing it become much less.

mcvey

10-06-2008, 05:56 AM

The trouble with Johansen is that he has the best right hand in the history of the sport and not much else.

He won all his major fights by putting his oponent on queer street with that short right and then finishing them. This is probably the only way he could beat Liston.

You have to ask what his chances are of putting Liston in trouble with one short right. Once Liston klnows that his right is his primary weapon the chances of landing it become much less.
I have to question your statement that Ingo had the "best right hand in the history of the sport".Better than Louis,Baer,Marciano,Foreman?.Do you think Patterson would have gotten up 7 times if Louis had hit him ? Apart from Floyd who was dropped by just about everyone of his challengers ,and Machen ,who was overconfident ,and caught cold,Cooper who was kod several times ,who did Ingo demolish who was world class? Johannson had a world class right hand ,but the best of all time? I don't think so.

Bokaj

10-06-2008, 05:58 AM

You have to ask what his chances are of putting Liston in trouble with one short right. Once Liston klnows that his right is his primary weapon the chances of landing it become much less.

Machen and Patterson undoubtly knew this. Didn't help them. (Well, Patterson did a better job avoiding it in the rematches, of course)

Loewe

10-06-2008, 06:03 AM

I have to question your statement that Ingo had the "best right hand in the history of the sport".Better than Louis,Baer,Marciano,Foreman?.Do you think Patterson would have gotten up 7 times if Louis had hit him ? Apart from Floyd who was dropped by just about everyone of his challengers ,and Machen ,who was overconfident ,and caught cold,Cooper who was kod several times ,who did Ingo demolish who was world class? Johannson had a world class right hand ,but the best of all time? I don't think so.

Well, I think Johannson had a better right than Foreman and Baer, not powerwise nessecarily but all-together. Schmeling had imo a better right than Johannson, as had Marciano, Louis, Lewis and W. Klitschko. But Johannson´s right is definitly up there with the best.

Floyd was dropped often, yes, but he also was a very very durable hw and just like Louis he got up when he was down. His chin was not bad. Tyson was stopped as often as him and beside Lewis none were punchers like Liston and Johannson. Had Tyson a weak jaw? No way!

janitor

10-06-2008, 06:07 AM

[quote=mcvey]I have to question your statement that Ingo had the "best right hand in the history of the sport".Better than Louis,Baer,Marciano,Foreman?.

In terms of his ability to execute a single short right hand punch he was as good as any of the above or better. These guys all had a few other tools in their arsenal to back up their right hand while Ingo really didnt have amuch else.

Johansen had limited boxing skill, poor durability and could not do much with his left hand so what got him to the top and won him the title?

Il give you three guesses.

Do you think Patterson would have gotten up 7 times if Louis had hit him ?

No I dont because Louis would have put a stream od sick combinations behind that right hand.

Now if you take away Louis's combination punching ability and coordination over his left hand then he might have some trouble putting Patterson away.

Apart from Floyd who was dropped by just about everyone of his challengers ,and Machen ,who was overconfident ,and caught cold,Cooper who was kod several times ,who did Ingo demolish who was world class?

Nobody should have been able to do to Machen what Johansen did to him. This is a guy who took Liston the distance and did the same to Joe Frazier when way past his best.

How many all time great punchers could have honestly repeated that.

janitor

10-06-2008, 06:11 AM

Machen and Patterson undoubtly knew this. Didn't help them. (Well, Patterson did a better job avoiding it in the rematches, of course)

Believe it or not they didnt.

Going into the Machen fight nobody outside Europe knew much about Johansen. There were rumours about his right hand but they were dismised as hype.

So surely Patterson would not have made the same mistake right?

Ingo totaly pulled the woll over the eyes of camp Patterson. He held public sparring sesions in which he never used his bingo. Pattersons spies came back and reported that Johansens right hand was over rated and the Machen win must have been a fluke.

The rest you know.

mcvey

10-06-2008, 07:17 AM

[QUOTE]

In terms of his ability to execute a single short right hand punch he was as good as any of the above or better. These guys all had a few other tools in their arsenal to back up their right hand while Ingo really didnt have amuch else.

Johansen had limited boxing skill, poor durability and could not do much with his left hand so what got him to the top and won him the title?

Il give you three guesses.

No I dont because Louis would have put a stream od sick combinations behind that right hand.

Now if you take away Louis's combination punching ability and coordination over his left hand then he might have some trouble putting Patterson away.

Nobody should have been able to do to Machen what Johansen did to him. This is a guy who took Liston the distance and did the same to Joe Frazier when way past his best.

How many all time great punchers could have honestly repeated that.
Well Frazier actually stopped Machen ,but it was in the last round.You didn't really answer my question though I asked what World class fighters apart from those mentioned did Ingo ko? His resume is very thin I think he was undeniably king of Europe for awhile but didnt meet many top guys .Cooper was kod by Folley and Patterson,Joe Bygraves ,so he is marginal ,apart from him Johannson met two world class men one he kod ,and one he kod once ,only to be kod himself in the other two fights ,that is not enough meat in the sandwich to give him the kudos you are.I think it's entirely possible Liston would have walked through his right hand.Marciano didnt think much of Ingo's power he said in an article for Boxing Illustrated ,"he knocked Patterson down seven times? That in itself is a tip off he isnt a great puncher" .Machen fought the Liston fight by boxing on the retreat,he walked into Ingo ,as did Cooper ,the Swede was a great counter puncher ,he used his left purely as a range finder,doing little else waiting for his opponent to initiate the exchanges ,and give him an oportunity to get his big shot home.You base Ingo's power on one fight,imo.

Bokaj

10-06-2008, 07:33 AM

Believe it or not they didnt.

Going into the Machen fight nobody outside Europe knew much about Johansen. There were rumours about his right hand but they were dismised as hype.

So surely Patterson would not have made the same mistake right?

Ingo totaly pulled the woll over the eyes of camp Patterson. He held public sparring sesions in which he never used his bingo. Pattersons spies came back and reported that Johansens right hand was over rated and the Machen win must have been a fluke.

The rest you know.

No kidding! That's really something. Thanks for the info.

SuzieQ49

10-06-2008, 07:40 AM

Floyd was dropped often, yes, but he also was a very very durable hw

I disagree, floyds management avoided the big punchers of the 1950s and floyd never fought the big punchers of the 1960s and early 70s, why? because he was very vunerable to them. Almost every puncher he faced, he was knocked out by. what big 200lb + puncher did patterson beat? what puncher did patterson take flush shots off of? A guy like jersey joe walcott beat top punchers of his era like louis, ray, murray, gomez, sheppard, pack, hoff. thats like patterson beating liston, valdez, baker, martin, mac foster. now THAT would be very impressive.

I love floyd and rate him very highly, but he defintley did not prove himself vs punchers like other heavyweight champs in history.

ChrisPontius

10-06-2008, 07:41 AM

The trouble with Johansen is that he has the best right hand in the history of the sport and not much else.

He won all his major fights by putting his oponent on queer street with that short right and then finishing them. This is probably the only way he could beat Liston.

You have to ask what his chances are of putting Liston in trouble with one short right. Once Liston klnows that his right is his primary weapon the chances of landing it become much less.

Well no one is claiming Johansson is a fighter as all-rounded as Liston is, but the fact is that Ingo not just beat, but destroyed all of his opponents up to that point. If all he had was a right hand, then it worked damn well for him. And if there's any punch Liston was susceptible to, it was the right hand. Johansson, even if slim, has a chance, more so than any other Liston opponent outside of Clay. Guys like Folley, Machen and DeJohn no doubt are better all-round boxers than Johansson, but outside of Machen, were chanceless.

Let me put it this way. All Frazier had was a great left hook. How much chance does he have against one of the greatest heavyweights of all time in Ali?

SuzieQ49

10-06-2008, 07:42 AM

janitor

10-06-2008, 07:43 AM

[quote=mcvey]
Well Frazier actually stopped Machen ,but it was in the last round.You didn't really answer my question though I asked what World class fighters apart from those mentioned did Ingo ko? His resume is very thin

Lets go back to Machen then.

Two all time great heavyweight punchers (Liston and Frazier) needed two fights between them to put the guy away. Johansen just iced him as if he was a glass chined fighter.

That is a terifying display of the bingo in action.

While Johansens resume is as you say thin it really is all built on that one perfectly executed punch.

I think it's entirely possible Liston would have walked through his right hand.

So do I but you just never know.

Marciano didnt think much of Ingo's power he said in an article for Boxing Illustrated ,"he knocked Patterson down seven times? That in itself is a tip off he isnt a great puncher" .

I suspect Marciano would have got a rude awakening if he had ever shared a ring with Johansen. Knocking Patterson down seven times is the mark of a man who has one good punch.

Machen fought the Liston fight by boxing on the retreat,he walked into Ingo ,as did Cooper ,the Swede was a great counter puncher ,he used his left purely as a range finder,doing little else waiting for his opponent to initiate the exchanges ,and give him an oportunity to get his big shot home.You base Ingo's power on one fight,imo.

More on the fact that everything he did was done with one particular punch.

What happens if youtake away every punch in Joe Louis's arsenal except one, or Rocky Marciano or even Max Baer.

Can they replicate Johansens sucess.

SuzieQ49

10-06-2008, 07:44 AM

Johansson, even if slim, has a chance, more so than any other Liston opponent outside of Clay. Guys like Folley, Machen and DeJohn no doubt are better all-round boxers than Johansson, but outside of Machen, were chanceless.

you believe ingo was a better bigger puncher than cleveland williams? as liston said "no one wants to fight cleveland williams. he hits just as hard as me".

btw, I find it funny how you always mention dejohn but not valdez, where as valdez TWICE whupped up on dejohn shortly before meeting liston.

Loewe

10-06-2008, 07:57 AM

I disagree, floyds management avoided the big punchers of the 1950s and floyd never fought the big punchers of the 1960s and early 70s, why? because he was very vunerable to them. Almost every puncher he faced, he was knocked out by. what big 200lb + puncher did patterson beat? what puncher did patterson take flush shots off of? A guy like jersey joe walcott beat top punchers of his era like louis, ray, murray, gomez, sheppard, pack, hoff. thats like patterson beating liston, valdez, baker, martin, mac foster. now THAT would be very impressive.

I love floyd and rate him very highly, but he defintley did not prove himself vs punchers like other heavyweight champs in history.

You a right he didn´t fight them but he fought quite a few solid to good punchers and wasn´t stopped by them. Even against Liston he was getting up. Imo he´s pretty similar to Louis when it comes to chin and recuperation, a tad behind berhaps but similar. Patterson is not as durable as a Jeffries, Marcian, Ali or Holyfield but he certainly was durable. You don´t fight so many top rated fighter like him even while past your prime and only get stopped by two atgs and a guy who is considered one of the hardest punchers in the history of the division.

Dempsey1238

10-06-2008, 08:11 AM

[quote]

In terms of his ability to execute a single short right hand punch he was as good as any of the above or better. These guys all had a few other tools in their arsenal to back up their right hand while Ingo really didnt have amuch else.

Johansen had limited boxing skill, poor durability and could not do much with his left hand so what got him to the top and won him the title?

Il give you three guesses.

No I dont because Louis would have put a stream od sick combinations behind that right hand.

Now if you take away Louis's combination punching ability and coordination over his left hand then he might have some trouble putting Patterson away.

Nobody should have been able to do to Machen what Johansen did to him. This is a guy who took Liston the distance and did the same to Joe Frazier when way past his best.

How many all time great punchers could have honestly repeated that.

If you did that, you may have just turn Louis into a Johansen type of fighter. Pretty odd imo.

ChrisPontius

10-06-2008, 10:18 AM

you believe ingo was a better bigger puncher than cleveland williams? as liston said "no one wants to fight cleveland williams. he hits just as hard as me".

btw, I find it funny how you always mention dejohn but not valdez, where as valdez TWICE whupped up on dejohn shortly before meeting liston.

Yes, i believe so. Johansson is much more proven. He knocked out Machen in 1 round, a unique feature that even Liston couldn't repeat and it took until several years later for Frazier to stop him after many rounds. Patterson, while he had a weak jaw, only Liston knocked him silly in addition to Johansson, who almost did it twice.

Both are more impressive than Williams' KO victory over Terrel.

I didn't really leave Valdes off on purpose, but he had equally little chance as DeJohn at that point.

Bill Butcher

10-06-2008, 10:39 AM

Well, we now know that Liston could not take a punch. He was KO'd twice by Muhammad Ali who was not exactly a hard puncher. If you hit him, you hurt him.

Ali was an underrated puncher, he rarely threw everything into a punch but I think it was his style more than his punch that beat Liston.

Williams was a feared puncher, very feared & Sonny went thru him twice without being shook up.

Ps. Liston destroys Johansson in 4 rds & probably takes Marciano out in 9 or 10.

:thumbsup

mcvey

10-06-2008, 11:22 AM

None actually! :D

janitor

10-06-2008, 11:28 AM

you believe ingo was a better bigger puncher than cleveland williams? as liston said "no one wants to fight cleveland williams. he hits just as hard as me".

I think Williams was a much better all round puncher than Johansen, but Johansen was much more dangerous with that right hand than Williams was with any given punch.

janitor

10-06-2008, 11:30 AM

mcvey

10-06-2008, 11:30 AM

Well no one is claiming Johansson is a fighter as all-rounded as Liston is, but the fact is that Ingo not just beat, but destroyed all of his opponents up to that point. If all he had was a right hand, then it worked damn well for him. And if there's any punch Liston was susceptible to, it was the right hand. Johansson, even if slim, has a chance, more so than any other Liston opponent outside of Clay. Guys like Folley, Machen and DeJohn no doubt are better all-round boxers than Johansson, but outside of Machen, were chanceless.

Let me put it this way. All Frazier had was a great left hook. How much chance does he have against one of the greatest heavyweights of all time in Ali?
I think" destoyed " is a bit hyperbolic,Ingo had 21 fights going into the Patterson fight and had stopped 13 of his opponents,hardly earth shattering,especially considering the calibre of most of them.

ChrisPontius

10-06-2008, 05:20 PM

I think" destoyed " is a bit hyperbolic,Ingo had 21 fights going into the Patterson fight and had stopped 13 of his opponents,hardly earth shattering,especially considering the calibre of most of them.

You may be on to something here Mcvey, but wouldn't you agree that how, and how many top opponents you stop is more important than total KO%? Ali didn't have a spectacular stoppage record against lesser fighters, but he managed to stop all of Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Now i'm not saying Ali is a big puncher, but you get my point............. right? :)

mcvey

10-06-2008, 07:29 PM

You may be on to something here Mcvey, but wouldn't you agree that how, and how many top opponents you stop is more important than total KO%? Ali didn't have a spectacular stoppage record against lesser fighters, but he managed to stop all of Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Now i'm not saying Ali is a big puncher, but you get my point............. right? :)
I do get your point ,but apart from stopping Patterson ONCE,and Machen Ingo did not stop a true top class fighter,in fact apart from those two, he never met one.

Bummy Davis

10-06-2008, 09:38 PM

At that point in his career and Johanasons, Ingo had a punchers chance although I think Liston's jab and power would be too much for him...Patterson did not take a good punch to the side of the head but Floyd had the fastest power punch of all heavys with Walcott next and Dempsey after him Ali had fast feet fast hands but not with the same power....Marciano was right about his long jab, slow but long and powerfull but Liston was a clubber and as far as his heart the 2 fights vs Ali were the only shadows over Sonny but large shadows nevertheless, Liston was quick coming in with the jab but Marciano was overpraising him to compare him with Walcott who had the 3nd best feet next to Ali and Tunney

mcvey

10-07-2008, 07:24 AM

Bummy Davis

10-07-2008, 09:53 AM

Actually I would give Dempsey the nod over Walcott for footwork ,Walcott used a lot of pivots and shoulder feints ,but if you look closely he didnt allways move his feet as much as people think.

Dempsey had good footwork going foward early in his career but by the Tunney fights it looked as though his feet and lower body were stiff, even in the Sharkey fight his power shot (especially body blows) were strong but his legs seemed stiff, could it have been from being inactive..could be. Walcott did have great upper body movement and feints but his legs were bouncy and his side to side movement and shuffles and shifts allowed him to land great pinpoint power shots putting his full body behind it look at his KD over Marciano, look at his ko over Charles and his KD's over Louis, his legs played an important part of setting the trap and landing with force, not the showmanship of Ali but a good use of the legs and footwork IMO

McGrain

10-07-2008, 11:14 AM

Actually I would give Dempsey the nod over Walcott for footwork ,Walcott used a lot of pivots and shoulder feints ,but if you look closely he didnt allways move his feet as much as people think.

Fuck that. Walcott is in a category all on his own for footwork in the HW division as far as I am concerned, though Dempsey's is generally underated.

jowcol

10-08-2008, 10:01 AM

you believe ingo was a better bigger puncher than cleveland williams? as liston said "no one wants to fight cleveland williams. he hits just as hard as me".

I just had a thought. I wonder if the Ingo camp, knowing perhaps that they needed a win over a ranked "Yankee" to put them into the title hunt, pursued the lighter-hitting, less dangerous Eddie instead of others? Could have been even more interesting if Folley or Big Cat had been the one to journey to Sweden in September of 1958.

Trivia: Ingo-Eddie fought in Sweden on September 14, 1958 and exactly ten years later, Patterson-Ellis fought there on September 14, 1968.

janitor

10-08-2008, 02:53 PM

I just had a thought. I wonder if the Ingo camp, knowing perhaps that they needed a win over a ranked "Yankee" to put them into the title hunt, pursued the lighter-hitting, less dangerous Eddie instead of others? Could have been even more interesting if Folley or Big Cat had been the one to journey to Sweden in September of 1958.

In many ways Machen was the most dangerous of the three for Ingo because he had the best chin.

Ingo would have been depending on a knockout to beat any of them.

mcvey

10-08-2008, 03:22 PM

Dempsey had good footwork going foward early in his career but by the Tunney fights it looked as though his feet and lower body were stiff, even in the Sharkey fight his power shot (especially body blows) were strong but his legs seemed stiff, could it have been from being inactive..could be. Walcott did have great upper body movement and feints but his legs were bouncy and his side to side movement and shuffles and shifts allowed him to land great pinpoint power shots putting his full body behind it look at his KD over Marciano, look at his ko over Charles and his KD's over Louis, his legs played an important part of setting the trap and landing with force, not the showmanship of Ali but a good use of the legs and footwork IMO
So do you judge him in his prime or when he had been out of the ring for 3 years?

mcvey

10-08-2008, 03:23 PM

Fuck that. Walcott is in a category all on his own for footwork in the HW division as far as I am concerned, though Dempsey's is generally underated.
As far as you are concerned.

ChrisPontius

10-08-2008, 03:46 PM

I do get your point ,but apart from stopping Patterson ONCE,and Machen Ingo did not stop a true top class fighter,in fact apart from those two, he never met one.
True, but wouldn't you say that his credentials are better than any other of Liston's opponents, Patterson aside? And i think we can agree, that no matter how low you estimate the Swede's chances, they're a lot better than Patterson, who'd never get by Liston, let alone make it out of the first round. :bart

mcvey

10-08-2008, 04:19 PM

True, but wouldn't you say that his credentials are better than any other of Liston's opponents, Patterson aside? And i think we can agree, that no matter how low you estimate the Swede's chances, they're a lot better than Patterson, who'd never get by Liston, let alone make it out of the first round. :bart
I dont give Ingo any more chance than Floyd actually he was slow afoot and his hand speed was average he couldnt jab with Liston and in my view doesnt have his power or chin,he liked guys to walk in ,fine Liston would ,can Ingo hurt him anymore than Williams? I don't think so.Patterson may have lasted longer against Liston if he had boxed on the retreat ,but his footwork wasn't the best ,he would have been caught sooner or later ,even with Liston's poor craft at cutting the ring.A fighter with slower feet and hands than Floyd ,and not really any more durable gets kod by Liston imo.And sooner rather than later.Ive nothing to base it on other than the Williams fights,but I just think Liston walks through Ingo's right hands and demolishes him early.