George Foreman vs John C Heenan

[janitor]

London prize ring rules with 4 oz gloves.

Both look the part.

Both are 6' 3'' and renowned for their physical strength.

Who takes it?

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

London prize ring rules with 4 oz gloves.

Both look the part.

Both are 6' 3'' and renowned for their physical strength.

Who takes it?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Foreman knocks the ridiculously hyped Heenan into next week.

[janitor]

Foreman knocks the ridiculously hyped Heenan into next week.

Always possible but what exactly makes you think Heenan was hyped?

[mcvey]

Always possible but what exactly makes you think Heenan was hyped?
His record.

[janitor]

His record.

Most of his record no longer exists.

The small fragment that survives suggests to me that he was the best heavyweight on the planet head to head when he fought Tom Sayers.

At the time it was acepted that they were the two outstanding fighters of that period.

[TommyV]

Pretty much impossible to judge. Different rule sets entirely, and completley different periods.

[mcvey]

Most of his record no longer exists.

The small fragment that survives suggests to me that he was the best heavyweight on the planet head to head when he fought Tom Sayers.

At the time it was acepted that they were the two outstanding fighters of that period.
Ok ,to start with Sayers was NEVER a Heavyweight ,he stood 5 8 1/2 inches and weighed in his prime ten stone twelve pounds ,thats 156 pounds to you ,so UNDER the Middle limit.Sayers who was born in Brighton 50mins from me was of Irish parents from Kerry Sayers first fight was against a man named Crouch the stake was 5 shillings,in March19th1849,he won this in twelve minutes next the former bricklayer took on Dan Collinsfor 25 shillings ,after several interruptions by the law Sayers prevailedin 44 rds, this was on April 29th 1851.Sayers next beat Jack Grant ,then Jack Martin,but after tasting defeat in his next fight he stepped up and beat Harry Poulson, for£50 which brought him to prominence and a match with Heenan.Heenan like Sayers was of Irish parents.Heenan's first RECORDED fight was against John Morrissey ,which he LOST.The fight took place on the 19th of Oct 1858The PAPER,the Spirit ,CONFIRMED ,that this was Heenan's debut in the Prize Ring ,the stake was 5000$,the fight was at Long Point,Canada West and the fighters were conveyed there by Steam boat,as was the crowd.the account of this fight I am using comes from an EYEWITNESS who was introduced to Morrissey prior to the fight.Heenan's condition was reported as POOR,he had an ulcer on his leg ,from a pickaxe wound,his seconds were Aaron Jones and John Mackay ,his weight is reported as over 190lbs a consequence of not being able to do road work,due to his leg injury.Morriesey's seconds were William Hastings and Australian Kelley and his weight was given as around 180 lbs.Morrisey was so confident of victory he shouted"1000 .to 600 dollars I win".The 1st rd lasted 6 minutes with Morrisey being thrown .The 2nd rd was much like the first.Morrissey took the next with a throw.Up till now Heenan had had the better of the long range exchanges but Morrissey had weakened him with punches to the body.Heenan came out very slow for the 4th rd ,but recovered himself and landed a big punch Morrissey replied in kind,the went in close and it ended with both on the turf Morrissey on top,on regaining their feet Heenan landed his best punch of the fight and knocked Morrissey down.Coming out for the 6th Heenan was visibly exhausted ,his legs were trembling,but he was game Morrisey dominated this round . The 7th saw Morrissey bleeding freely from facial cuts,but much the fresher man,Heenan 's punches were mere pushes now.The 8th Morrissey landed a series of good punches to Heenan's face dropping his man ,Heenan's seconds dragged him to his corner .Heenan came out bravely for the 9th but he was a spent force with little in his punches ,Morrisey too was tiring ,but took the round.10thrd Both men concentrated on punching to the head and face ,but the superior condition of Morrissey showed,and he threw Heenan to end the round.Heenan's seconds should have retired their man ,but allowed him to come out for the 11th,he stood there reeling while Morrisseycame within distance and landed a big right hander on his neck.Heenan fell senseless and faailed to respond to sponging or stimulants ,the eleven rds had taken 22 minutes.You obviously have an in depth account of the Sayers fight so I will spare you any more.My condensed account of the Heenan Morrissey fight is taken from a contemporay acount by Bells Life Fights For the Championship .My long and tortuous point is Heenan had NO previous ring experience BEFORE this fight,he next took on Sayers,so his ring record is less than thin it is allmost non existant.I give him full marks for gameness against Morrissey,who was really just a tough man without any science,but able to endure considerable punishment ,a cruder earlier version of Jeffries perhaps.Match either of them ,or Sayers against a 220lbs trained terrific puncher and very hard left jabber ,under ANY circumstances ,and you are likely to see a murder take place before your eyes.

[TBooze]

London Prize and Queensberry are two different sports; Foreman (to my knowledge) has never tried London Prize fioghting, thus Heenan must go in there as favourite.

[Senya13]

Heenan would be the favorite with better wrestling skills, and because of Foreman's not very good stamina.

[mcvey]

Heenan would be the favorite with better wrestling skills, and because of Foreman's not very good stamina.
Heenan was all in after 8rds with Morrissey a "tough man "type,throwing a man down and falling on him doesn't constitute skill imo.Where did Heenan pick up these skills,considering his lack of prize ring experience? Heenan was a novice whose biggest fight was against a Middleweight weighing 156 lbs and standing 5 8 1/2 inches.How do you see such a man [Sayers ] doing against Foreman?.In fact do you think ANY Middleweight under ANY rules would beat Foreman ?Heenan would be butchered.Morrissey wasn't much ,tough and able to take punishment ,Old Smoke as he was known had to go 37 rounds to beat Yankee Sullivan for the Vacant title of American Champion,and he was 20lbs heavier ,and 18 years younger than Sullivan , yet he conclusively kod Heenan.We arent talking about a great Prize ring warrior here like Mace ,Mendoza or John L,Heenan was a novice a big brave strong one but a novice.What does he have over Foreman? I think George Chuvalo would beat Heenan or Morrissey.

[Arka]

May I ask a question do you guys make any money betting on fights?
Clearly some "boxing historians" feel themselves competent to predict -NOT analyse the difference in techniques,training or rules between different ages-the outcome of bouts featuring fighters, separated by a distance of a century,fighting according to different rules and one of whose bouts were never captured on film.
How much more easier would be easier would it be pronouncing with certainty the future outcome of fights involving modern boxers,whose whole fighter careers of which we have access to on film....
I mean this must be a surefire money making proposition!

[Senya13]

Counter-question:
Where did Foreman show wrestling skills to make him favorite over any bareknuckle top-notchers?

I would surely have made Sayers or Mace big favorites over Foreman under LPR. Too slow, too clumsy, poor stamina. Foreman is a piece of cake for those two.

[mcvey]

May I ask a question do you guys make any money betting on fights?
Clearly some "boxing historians" feel themselves competent to predict -NOT analyse the difference in techniques,training or rules between different ages-the outcome of bouts featuring fighters, separated by a distance of a century,fighting according to different rules and one of whose bouts were never captured on film.
How much more easier would be easier would it be pronouncing with certainty the future outcome of fights involving modern boxers,whose whole fighter careers of which we have access to on film....
I mean this must be a surefire money making proposition!
We are just a bunch of self appointed and self opinionated "experts",who enjoy bantering with each other,none of us has the inside track on the realities and truths behind matches fictional or factual ,but we bullshit each other,its a bit like poker really ,and quite good fun.There are some knowledgeable people on here ,I'm not one of them, just a fan .Last time I made any significant money on a fight was when Barrera took Hamed to school. One of the problems of living in the UK is that we don't get the first hand" inside gym news" on how a fighter looks or whether he is having trouble making weight,and our boxing mags ,such as The Ring are a little behind the States. I won a few bob on Calzaghe v Hopkins ,but had to change my trousers during the fight.

[Dempsey1238]

Heenan was all in after 8rds with Morrissey a "tough man "type,throwing a man down and falling on him doesn't constitute skill imo.Where did Heenan pick up these skills,considering his lack of prize ring experience? Heenan was a novice whose biggest fight was against a Middleweight weighing 156 lbs and standing 5 8 1/2 inches.How do you see such a man [Sayers ] doing against Foreman?.In fact do you think ANY Middleweight under ANY rules would beat Foreman ?Heenan would be butchered.Morrissey wasn't much ,tough and able to take punishment ,Old Smoke as he was known had to go 37 rounds to beat Yankee Sullivan for the Vacant title of American Champion,and he was 20lbs heavier ,and 18 years younger than Sullivan , yet he conclusively kod Heenan.We arent talking about a great Prize ring warrior here like Mace ,Mendoza or John L,Heenan was a novice a big brave strong one but a novice.What does he have over Foreman? I think George Chuvalo would beat Heenan or Morrissey.

Think you underate the wrestling part of the barekuck sport. Also the non protected gloves for the hands. Foreman can land one wrong blow and it could damage his hand. Foreman is going to problems imo vs any longdon prize ring bout with a guy with wrestling skills, if they can take Foreman's power that is.

[mcvey]

Counter-question:
Where did Foreman show wrestling skills to make him favorite over any bareknuckle top-notchers?

I would surely have made Sayers or Mace big favorites over Foreman under LPR. Too slow, too clumsy, poor stamina. Foreman is a piece of cake for those two.
Foreman in his 40s goes the distance with the world champion and several top notchers ,then he kos the reining Champ while in his mid 40s .he does this without ONCE sitting down between rounds ,his stamina issues result from the humidity in Zaire where he shot his bolt trying to take out a man with a great chin,and a case of heat exhaustion in Puerto Rico.You didn't answer my question ,but here's another what made Heenan a top notcher,which fights ? He had poor wrestling skills actually, Morrissey was his clear master at the game ,Heenan stayed in the fight because he was superior at long range punching,and then he only landed about 25 punches in 22 minutes of fighting. Morrissey kod him couldn't Foreman?

[Arka]

We are just a bunch of self appointed and self opinionated "experts",who enjoy bantering with each other,none of us has the inside track on the realities and truths behind matches fictional or factual ,but we bullshit each other,its a bit like poker really ,and quite good fun.There are some knowledgeable people on here ,I'm not one of them, just a fan .Last time I made any significant money on a fight was when Barrera took Hamed to school. One of the problems of living in the UK is that we don't get the first hand" inside gym news" on how a fighter looks or whether he is having trouble making weight,and our boxing mags ,such as The Ring are a little behind the States. I won a few bob on Calzaghe v Hopkins ,but had to change my trousers during the fight.

Hehe.Thanks for your self deprecating and objective reply.Betting money on boxing is a heartbreaking proposition.(BTW sorry about my rudeness of my post-I'm a noob after all). Personally,I find the history and heritage of boxing fascinating.I enjoyed the recent fine documentary on Channel 4,about Tom Cribb,Richmond and Molineaux.
A long as there are fans,who can ensure that these great fighters are not forgotten,I'm happy.

[mcvey]

You didnt answer my question ,but I'll ask another which fights made Heenan atop notcher?Heen's wrestling skills were pretty poor actually ,Morrissey was clearly his master at that game ,Heenan stayed in the fight because he was superior at long range punching ,and then he only landed about 25 punches in the 22 minutes the fight lasted.Foremans stamina issues originate from 2 fights one in Zaire in tropical humidity where he exhausted himself throwing power punches non stop to try and ko a man with a great chin,and one in Peurto rico where he suffered heat exhaustion chasing Young.In his 40s Foreman goes the distance with the Champion and several top notchers ,he then goes most of the distance with another Champion and has enough stamina left to produce a title winning ko .IN NONE OF THESE FIGHTS DOES HE ONCE SIT DOWN BETWEEN ROUNDS.

[fists of fury]

Ok ,to start with Sayers was NEVER a Heavyweight ,he stood 5 8 1/2 inches and weighed in his prime ten stone twelve pounds ,thats 156 pounds to you ,so UNDER the Middle limit.Sayers who was born in Brighton 50mins from me was of Irish parents from Kerry Sayers first fight was against a man named Crouch the stake was 5 shillings,in March19th1849,he won this in twelve minutes next the former bricklayer took on Dan Collinsfor 25 shillings ,after several interruptions by the law Sayers prevailedin 44 rds, this was on April 29th 1851.Sayers next beat Jack Grant ,then Jack Martin,but after tasting defeat in his next fight he stepped up and beat Harry Poulson, for£50 which brought him to prominence and a match with Heenan.Heenan like Sayers was of Irish parents.Heenan's first RECORDED fight was against John Morrissey ,which he LOST.The fight took place on the 19th of Oct 1858The PAPER,the Spirit ,CONFIRMED ,that this was Heenan's debut in the Prize Ring ,the stake was 5000$,the fight was at Long Point,Canada West and the fighters were conveyed there by Steam boat,as was the crowd.the account of this fight I am using comes from an EYEWITNESS who was introduced to Morrissey prior to the fight.Heenan's condition was reported as POOR,he had an ulcer on his leg ,from a pickaxe wound,his seconds were Aaron Jones and John Mackay ,his weight is reported as over 190lbs a consequence of not being able to do road work,due to his leg injury.Morriesey's seconds were William Hastings and Australian Kelley and his weight was given as around 180 lbs.Morrisey was so confident of victory he shouted"1000 .to 600 dollars I win".The 1st rd lasted 6 minutes with Morrisey being thrown .The 2nd rd was much like the first.Morrissey took the next with a throw.Up till now Heenan had had the better of the long range exchanges but Morrissey had weakened him with punches to the body.Heenan came out very slow for the 4th rd ,but recovered himself and landed a big punch Morrissey replied in kind,the went in close and it ended with both on the turf Morrissey on top,on regaining their feet Heenan landed his best punch of the fight and knocked Morrissey down.Coming out for the 6th Heenan was visibly exhausted ,his legs were trembling,but he was game Morrisey dominated this round . The 7th saw Morrissey bleeding freely from facial cuts,but much the fresher man,Heenan 's punches were mere pushes now.The 8th Morrissey landed a series of good punches to Heenan's face dropping his man ,Heenan's seconds dragged him to his corner .Heenan came out bravely for the 9th but he was a spent force with little in his punches ,Morrisey too was tiring ,but took the round.10thrd Both men concentrated on punching to the head and face ,but the superior condition of Morrissey showed,and he threw Heenan to end the round.Heenan's seconds should have retired their man ,but allowed him to come out for the 11th,he stood there reeling while Morrisseycame within distance and landed a big right hander on his neck.Heenan fell senseless and faailed to respond to sponging or stimulants ,the eleven rds had taken 22 minutes.You obviously have an in depth account of the Sayers fight so I will spare you any more.My condensed account of the Heenan Morrissey fight is taken from a contemporay acount by Bells Life Fights For the Championship .My long and tortuous point is Heenan had NO previous ring experience BEFORE this fight,he next took on Sayers,so his ring record is less than thin it is allmost non existant.I give him full marks for gameness against Morrissey,who was really just a tough man without any science,but able to endure considerable punishment ,a cruder earlier version of Jeffries perhaps.Match either of them ,or Sayers against a 220lbs trained terrific puncher and very hard left jabber ,under ANY circumstances ,and you are likely to see a murder take place before your eyes.

Interesting stuff and a wonderful post.

[Senya13]

Foreman goes the distance in his 40s by doing very little movement or punching. What about Oakland and New York, two fights against Peralta, was the heat a problem there also?

Morrissey fight, Heenan breaks his hand in the very first round. Heenan ended the first two rounds by throws, while he was still more or less fresh (he was not in very good shape for this bout). Long range fighting - what report are you using?
Despite again being out of shape vs Tom King, he showed excellent wrestling skills there.

[mcvey]

Think you underate the wrestling part of the barekuck sport. Also the non protected gloves for the hands. Foreman can land one wrong blow and it could damage his hand. Foreman is going to problems imo vs any longdon prize ring bout with a guy with wrestling skills, if they can take Foreman's power that is.
Is there any reason why Foreman cannot punch to the body? Heenan had 2 recorded fights ,,where do you suppose he picked up these wrestling skills.Wrestling skills of the London Prize Ring consisted mainly of grabbing an opponent in a head chancery or a crossbuttock and throwing him as heavily as possible ,then falling on him,a war of attrition if you like ,we arent talking Gotch ,Hackenshmidt or Thesz here.I repeat Heenan had 2] fights, Foreman 81 fights,add to this Foreman was a street fighting thug according to his auto biography,the experience is clearly in Foreman's favour.Heenan was no John L he was a novice,and an unsuccessful one.

[Dempsey1238]

I conisder Heenan a great though, he fought one of the greatness, and bloodies, dirtist fights of all time if we go by records and reports with Sayers. Did you see drawings of that fight??? Both guys had eyes close and were cover with blood. I think if Heenan(And Sayers) could take that and still go on and fight to a draw, than I belive Heenan will be able to take about anything Foreman can thown. Now Foreman may knock him down, but we must rember that Heenan will have half a min, and not the ten count to recover. Had Frazier or Norton had that, they may have lasted longer. May have even out lasted Foreman under that rule set.

[Senya13]

That Heenan had so few recorded fights doesn't mean he didn't have any beside those. On the contrary, the things he had shown in his recorded "debut" (vs Morrissey) clearly prove that he had had fighting experience before, complete newbies don't show blocking and hitting skills like he did.

[mcvey]

I conisder Heenan a great though, he fought one of the greatness, and bloodies, dirtist fights of all time if we go by records and reports with Sayers. Did you see drawings of that fight??? Both guys had eyes close and were cover with blood. I think if Heenan(And Sayers) could take that and still go on and fight to a draw, than I belive Heenan will be able to take about anything Foreman can thown. Now Foreman may knock him down, but we must rember that Heenan will have half a min, and not the ten count to recover. Had Frazier or Norton had that, they may have lasted longer. May have even out lasted Foreman under that rule set.
Heenan did not break his hand he damaged 2 knuckles on a ring post .you say Foreman showed little movement in the fights you cited, count the punches recorded in the Heenan Morrissey scrap. I am using "Fight s For the Championship and Celebrated Prize Battles ",compiled from Bells Life,you know the book, you valued it for me.It gives Heenan the edge in long range punching .The contemporay paper of the time the "Spirit ",confirms this was Heenan's debut in the LPR

[mcvey]

I conisder Heenan a great though, he fought one of the greatness, and bloodies, dirtist fights of all time if we go by records and reports with Sayers. Did you see drawings of that fight??? Both guys had eyes close and were cover with blood. I think if Heenan(And Sayers) could take that and still go on and fight to a draw, than I belive Heenan will be able to take about anything Foreman can thown. Now Foreman may knock him down, but we must rember that Heenan will have half a min, and not the ten count to recover. Had Frazier or Norton had that, they may have lasted longer. May have even out lasted Foreman under that rule set.
Sorry this is for Senya.

[mcvey]

I conisder Heenan a great though, he fought one of the greatness, and bloodies, dirtist fights of all time if we go by records and reports with Sayers. Did you see drawings of that fight??? Both guys had eyes close and were cover with blood. I think if Heenan(And Sayers) could take that and still go on and fight to a draw, than I belive Heenan will be able to take about anything Foreman can thown. Now Foreman may knock him down, but we must rember that Heenan will have half a min, and not the ten count to recover. Had Frazier or Norton had that, they may have lasted longer. May have even out lasted Foreman under that rule set.
Heenan was a heavyweight fighting a small middle weight in Sayers,replace Heenan with Foreman ,how does it go?

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= London Prize Ring rules are bare knuckle no gloves of any kind
so Big George Foreman would not be throwing punches the way you throw them in a ring with gloves on. There is an art to throwing punches bareknuckle that is completely different than the way you throw with the gloves on. I know as I
fought as a sparring partner for club fighters in Los Angeles in the late 70s and was a street fighter too. Yes I had a very bad temper and attitude at the time and you didn`t throw punches the same way as you did in the ring or you would end up with a shattered hand. HEENAN HAS TO BE FAVORED IN THIS ENCOUNTER IF IT LASTS MORE THAN 1O MINS AS YOU CAN`T GO BY RDS AS A RD ENDS WHEN A MAN HITS THE GROUND AND THEN HAS TO COME TO SCRATCH. A RD COULD GO A FEW SECONDS OR 10 MINS. GEORGE WOULD GET VERY TIRED WHERE HEENAN WOULDN`T EVEN BE WINDED.

[Senya13]

Huh? Fights for the championship is a British book abouts fights that had taken place in England. Also, I don't know what edition you have, but mine was printed in 1855, three years before Heenan and Morrissey met.

[mcvey]

Huh? Fights for the championship is a British book abouts fights that had taken place in England. Also, I don't know what edition you have, but mine was printed in 1855, three years before Heenan and Morrissey met.
My book includes the Heenan Morrisey fight ,or do you think I made it up? It was printed in the 1850s,the number after the 5 is smudged,but the account is read as a current fight,ie one that has just occurred.

[Senya13]

Does it have on the cover something like this?

Fights for the championship of England;
or, Accounts of all the prize battles for the championship...including also the recent contests between Tom Sayers, Benjamin and Brettle.
To which is added the new rules of the ring, as revised by the Pugilistic Benevolent Association of England.
Compiled by the editor of Bell's Life in London.
New York:
Robert M. De Witt, Publisher
[1859]

i.e. a American re-print (going by Magriel's bibliography).

Obviously, the account of Morrissey-Heenan would be based on American sources, not on something originated from Bell's Life in London.

[dabox]

foreman by a very quick ko,

i respect guys like heenan alot but his only shot is based on try wrestle foreman.

[mcvey]

Does it have on the cover something like this?

Fights for the championship of England;
or, Accounts of all the prize battles for the championship...including also the recent contests between Tom Sayers, Benjamin and Brettle.
To which is added the new rules of the ring, as revised by the Pugilistic Benevolent Association of England.
Compiled by the editor of Bell's Life in London.
New York:
Robert M. De Witt, Publisher
[1859]

i.e. a American re-print (going by Magriel's bibliography).

Obviously, the account of Morrissey-Heenan would be based on American sources, not on something originated from Bell's Life in London.
the Title is"Fights For The Champioship".and the fly leaf says Fights For The Championship,and Celebrayed Prize Battles,or accounts of.All the Prize Battles for the Championship From The Days ofFigg and Broughton to the present time.And Also Many Other Game and extra ordinary battles between first rate pugilistsof Ancient and Modern Times.Compiled From Bell's Life In London "Boxiana",by the author of Bell's Life In London.It was published at "Bell's Life " office 170 the Strand price seven shillings and sixpence.

[Senya13]

I guess Magriel didn't list all possible editions of the book in his bibliography then. He only has 1855 and 1859 editions listed.

Anyway, I looked up some non-local re-prints of that fight report (from Buffalo Courier, etc), as well as what Elliott Gorn wrote in 'Manly Art' based on three or four reports, and I didn't see in any of them mention of Heenan's particular success at long range or his preference of that range in this fight. Does your edition give any hint as to the author or original source of the report?

[mcvey]

I guess Magriel didn't list all possible editions of the book in his bibliography then. He only has 1855 and 1859 editions listed.

Anyway, I looked up some non-local re-prints of that fight report (from Buffalo Courier, etc), as well as what Elliott Gorn wrote in 'Manly Art' based on three or four reports, and I didn't see in any of them mention of Heenan's particular success at long range or his preference of that range in this fight. Does your edition give any hint as to the author or original source of the report?
Unfortunately it is untitled but is written as though it had just happened,obviously the writer was an American Journalist,possibly off the paper I mentioned, the Spirit.Regarding the Syers fight Sayers reportedly broke his forearm in the 6th round warding off Heenan's punches.

[janitor]

Heenan like Sayers was of Irish parents.Heenan's first RECORDED fight was against John Morrissey ,which he LOST.The fight took place on the 19th of Oct 1858The PAPER,the Spirit ,CONFIRMED ,that this was Heenan's debut in the Prize Ring ,

The Spirit is wrong.

Other papers refer to Heenan fighting as far back as 1895 and regularly in 96 and 97.

Anyway at least I got to post pictures of them next to each other.

[mcvey]

The Spirit is wrong.

Other papers refer to Heenan fighting as far back as 1895 and regularly in 96 and 97.

Anyway at least I got to post pictures of them next to each other.
If Heenan fought Morrissey in 1858,I don't see where you are with your dates J? 1895? 1896 and 97?

[My2Sense]

Is this a joke?? Heenan never won a known fight. He is the #1 most undeserving Hall of Famer, and that's saying a helluva lot. He was his own media creation. He got the shot at Morrissey because he kept talking endless trash through a newspaper column that he worked for. When he finally got the chance to make good on all his talk, he choked.

Heenan would find a way to blow this fight. He was the bareknuckle Andrew Golota.

[Dempsey1238]

Heenan's record is no were near complete though.
I mean who were the locals he beat to build his rep??


Heenan was a clever boxer with tremendous punching power; He was also a capable wrestler

John was muscular and gained a reputation for toughness as a young man while swinging a hammer in the workshops of the Pacific Mail Steamship Company

Heenan was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1954 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2002


1855-1857
-Heenan defeated many local men and was recognized as an
outstanding fighter

1857
Dec Joe Coburn New York, NY EX

1858
Mar 15 Johnny "Cocky" Woods Boston, Ma EX
Mar 17 Johnny "Cocky" Woods Boston, Ma EX
Oct 20 John Morrissey Long Point, Can L 11
-Heavyweight Championship of America;
Heenan broke his right hand early in the
contest and fought at a disadvantage

-Heenan "married" Adah Isaacs Menken, a famous actress

1859
Apr 4 John Morrissey EX

1860
Apr 17 Tom Sayers Farnborough, Eng D 42
-Heenan seemed to have the advantage when the
crowd broke into the ring

May 20 -Heenan was awarded a duplicate Championship Belt

1863
Dec 10 Tom King Wadhurst, Eng L 24
-Championship of England;
Heenan knocked King out of time in round
eighteen but the fight continued and King
won

1864
Apr 4 Tom King Lewes, Eng SCH
-This fight was scheduled but cancelled;
Some sources report 4/05/1864

1868
Sep 4 Mike McCoole SCH
-This fight was scheduled but cancelled

1869-1870
-Heenan and Jem Mace toured America giving exhibitions

1871
Feb 11 Jem Mace New York, NY EX 3

[mcvey]

Heenan's record is no were near complete though.
I mean who were the locals he beat to build his rep??


Heenan was a clever boxer with tremendous punching power; He was also a capable wrestler

John was muscular and gained a reputation for toughness as a young man while swinging a hammer in the workshops of the Pacific Mail Steamship Company

Heenan was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1954 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2002


1855-1857
-Heenan defeated many local men and was recognized as an
outstanding fighter

1857
Dec Joe Coburn New York, NY EX

1858
Mar 15 Johnny "Cocky" Woods Boston, Ma EX
Mar 17 Johnny "Cocky" Woods Boston, Ma EX
Oct 20 John Morrissey Long Point, Can L 11
-Heavyweight Championship of America;
Heenan broke his right hand early in the
contest and fought at a disadvantage

-Heenan "married" Adah Isaacs Menken, a famous actress

1859
Apr 4 John Morrissey EX

1860
Apr 17 Tom Sayers Farnborough, Eng D 42
-Heenan seemed to have the advantage when the
crowd broke into the ring

May 20 -Heenan was awarded a duplicate Championship Belt

1863
Dec 10 Tom King Wadhurst, Eng L 24
-Championship of England;
Heenan knocked King out of time in round
eighteen but the fight continued and King
won

1864
Apr 4 Tom King Lewes, Eng SCH
-This fight was scheduled but cancelled;
Some sources report 4/05/1864

1868
Sep 4 Mike McCoole SCH
-This fight was scheduled but cancelled

1869-1870
-Heenan and Jem Mace toured America giving exhibitions

1871
Feb 11 Jem Mace New York, NY EX 3
Heenans first Fight ,UNDER LONDON PRIZE RING RULES WAS AGAINST MORRISSEY,the men he beat before that were local toughs.Heenan stood 6 2in and weighed between 198 and 220 [this was for the Morrissey fight].
Tale Of the Tape
Sayers Heenan
AGE
32 23
HEIGHT
5 81/2 6 2
WEIGHT
158 200[approx]

IN the 6th rd Sayers broke a bone in his right forearm,now given that Heenan had every physical advantage plus he was nearly 9 years younger ,add to this that Sayers fought 36 rds with a BROKEN ARM,add that Heenan was fighting a MIDDLEWEIGHT ,what should have been the result of this draw?Now you have the sum OF JOHN CAMEL HEENAN,the AMERICAN MYTH.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]Heenans first Fight ,UNDER LONDON PRIZE RING RULES WAS AGAINST MORRISSEY,the men he beat before that were local toughs.

With all respect I dost see how you can justify either asertion.

We dont know how good Heenans early oponents were or what rules he fought them under.


Heenan stood 6 2in and weighed between 198 and 220 [this was for the Morrissey fight].
Tale Of the Tape
Sayers Heenan
AGE
32 23
HEIGHT
5 81/2 6 2
WEIGHT
158 200[approx]

IN the 6th rd Sayers broke a bone in his right forearm,now given that Heenan had every physical advantage plus he was nearly 9 years younger ,add to this that Sayers fought 36 rds with a BROKEN ARM,add that Heenan was fighting a MIDDLEWEIGHT ,what should have been the result of this draw?


Heenan would almost certainly have won if Sayers backers had not invaded the ring. They did so because Sayers was about to get stopped and they had bet heavily on him.

Although Sayers was as you say a middleweight he was still the best heavyweight in the world.

You make a big deal of Sayers having a broken arm which might have been caused by Heenan but make no alowance for the fact that Heenan sustaind a broken hand against Morrisey. Incidentaly Heenan was beating Morrisey handily with one arm before he sucumbed to the injury.

You describe Heenan as the great American myth but you would have to alow that he was at some point the best fighter in the world. If not him then who?

[mcvey]

I dont see how you can say Heenan was winning handily until his injury since it happenend in the first round.Heenan according to my sources had his first fighjt under prize Ring rulles against Morriessey ,his fights before that were not against pugilists,if you have any evidence to the contrary please produce it.I ncall Heena the American Myth because if you look at his record it is a sparse one and a losing one at that.Morrisey who beat Heenan was a tough man nothing more ,he only had 4 fights himself ,one of which he lost,one against Yankee Sullivan who had then 1 fight,two against Poole and Thompson ,who had NEVER BEEN in the PRIZE RING .you talk of these men as though they were ona par or equal to real bare knuckle fighters like Mace ,Mendoza, Jackson ,Figg,Broughton,Cribb,they were little more than tough men involved in "tough man" contests.Is it because the best of them were English that you need to bum up these American novices? Before Sullivan,and I mean JOhn L most of the best men fighting in the world were ENGLISH or Irish.I must tell you Heenan is regarded in the UK as one of Boxings jokes.Sayers giving away height ,weight and age ,PLUS a broken arm blacked Heenan's eyes,the fight was stopped with Heenan, his hands around Sayers throat in an effort to strangle him was thwarted by the ropes being cut and a draw was declared.I dont think heenan was EVER the best man in the world,and probably not in America either.A point to remember about Morrissey versus Heenan is that Morrissey had been retired for 4YEARS prior to their fight.

[mcvey]

I dont see how you can say Heenan was winning handily until his injury since it happenend in the first round.Heenan according to my sources had his first fighjt under prize Ring rulles against Morriessey ,his fights before that were not against pugilists,if you have any evidence to the contrary please produce it.I ncall Heena the American Myth because if you look at his record it is a sparse one and a losing one at that.Morrisey who beat Heenan was a tough man nothing more ,he only had 4 fights himself ,one of which he lost,one against Yankee Sullivan who had then 1 fight,two against Poole and Thompson ,who had NEVER BEEN in the PRIZE RING .you talk of these men as though they were ona par or equal to real bare knuckle fighters like Mace ,Mendoza, Jackson ,Figg,Broughton,Cribb,they were little more than tough men involved in "tough man" contests.Is it because the best of them were English that you need to bum up these American novices? Before Sullivan,and I mean JOhn L most of the best men fighting in the world were ENGLISH or Irish.I must tell you Heenan is regarded in the UK as one of Boxings jokes.Sayers giving away height ,weight and age ,PLUS a broken arm blacked Heenan's eyes,the fight was stopped with Heenan, his hands around Sayers throat in an effort to strangle him was thwarted by the ropes being cut and a draw was declared.I dont think heenan was EVER the best man in the world,and probably not in America either.A point to remember about Morrissey versus Heenan is that Morrissey had been retired for 4YEARS prior to their fight.

[mcvey]

I dont see how you can say Heenan was winning handily until his injury since it happenend in the first round.Heenan according to my sources had his first fighjt under prize Ring rulles against Morriessey ,his fights before that were not against pugilists,if you have any evidence to the contrary please produce it.I ncall Heena the American Myth because if you look at his record it is a sparse one and a losing one at that.Morrisey who beat Heenan was a tough man nothing more ,he only had 4 fights himself ,one of which he lost,one against Yankee Sullivan who had then 1 fight,two against Poole and Thompson ,who had NEVER BEEN in the PRIZE RING .you talk of these men as though they were ona par or equal to real bare knuckle fighters like Mace ,Mendoza, Jackson ,Figg,Broughton,Cribb,they were little more than tough men involved in "tough man" contests.Is it because the best of them were English that you need to bum up these American novices? Before Sullivan,and I mean JOhn L most of the best men fighting in the world were ENGLISH or Irish.I must tell you Heenan is regarded in the UK as one of Boxings jokes.Sayers giving away height ,weight and age ,PLUS a broken arm blacked Heenan's eyes,the fight was stopped with Heenan, his hands around Sayers throat in an effort to strangle him was thwarted by the ropes being cut and a draw was declared.I dont think heenan was EVER the best man in the world,and probably not in America either.A point to remember about Morrissey versus Heenan is that Morrissey had been retired for 4YEARS prior to their fight.
Sorry about the double post,but to answer your question ,Joe Coburn was probably the best man in America at the time and he challenged Heenan twice ,Heenan refused to fight him.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]I dont see how you can say Heenan was winning handily until his injury since it happenend in the first round.

From what I have read he was winning handily even after his hand was taken out of comision.

Heenan according to my sources had his first fighjt under prize Ring rulles against Morriessey ,his fights before that were not against pugilists,if you have any evidence to the contrary please produce it.

Any fight of that period would either have been under LPR or Broughton rules. As far as I know no other rule set existed.

As for asking me to produce evidence that his oponents were pugilists I would say that it is equaly incumbant upon you to provide evidence that they were not.

I ncall Heena the American Myth because if you look at his record it is a sparse one and a losing one at that.Morrisey who beat Heenan was a tough man nothing more ,he only had 4 fights himself ,one of which he lost,one against Yankee Sullivan who had then 1 fight,two against Poole and Thompson ,who had NEVER BEEN in the PRIZE RING .you talk of these men as though they were ona par or equal to real bare knuckle fighters like Mace ,Mendoza,

I would not place these men on a par with Mace but I think you are a bit too dismisive of the American champions of this period.

Morrisey was as you have observed something of a manufactured champion. Heenan at his best was good enough to beat Tom Sayers and gave Tom King a competitive fight. He would not have been able to do this if he was just a toughman.

Jackson ,Figg,Broughton,Cribb,they were little more than tough men involved in "tough man" contests.Is it because the best of them were English that you need to bum up these American novices? Before Sullivan,and I mean JOhn L most of the best men fighting in the world were ENGLISH or Irish.

I agree that the British champions were generaly of a somewhat higher calibre than their American counterparts prior to Sullivan. I will however beg a couple of exceptions.

Tom Molineux was clearly of a similar calibre to his British contemporaries and I think that Yankee Sullivan copuld have been.

Heenan himself was at least good enough to potentialy beat Sayers though King outclassesd him.

I must tell you Heenan is regarded in the UK as one of Boxings jokes.

I live in the UK.

Sayers giving away height ,weight and age

This was perhaps not as important then as it would be now.

Many of the top bareknucklers were esentialy middleweights and beating Sayers would be seen as an acomplishment regarless of your size.

[janitor]

Sorry about the double post,but to answer your question ,Joe Coburn was probably the best man in America at the time and he challenged Heenan twice ,Heenan refused to fight him.

That is actualy plausible although Coburn was not a naturalised American.

I would certainly not lay down money on Coburn over Heenan.

[mcvey]

[quote]

From what I have read he was winning handily even after his hand was taken out of comision.



Any fight of that period would either have been under LPR or Broughton rules. As far as I know no other rule set existed.

As for asking me to produce evidence that his oponents were pugilists I would say that it is equaly incumbant upon you to provide evidence that they were not.



I would not place these men on a par with Mace but I think you are a bit too dismisive of the American champions of this period.

Morrisey was as you have observed something of a manufactured champion. Heenan at his best was good enough to beat Tom Sayers and gave Tom King a competitive fight. He would not have been able to do this if he was just a toughman.



I agree that the British champions were generaly of a somewhat higher calibre than their American counterparts prior to Sullivan. I will however beg a couple of exceptions.

Tom Molineux was clearly of a similar calibre to his British contemporaries and I think that Yankee Sullivan copuld have been.

Heenan himself was at least good enough to potentialy beat Sayers though King outclassesd him.



I live in the UK.



This was perhaps not as important then as it would be now.

Many of the top bareknucklers were esentialy middleweights and beating Sayers would be seen as an acomplishment regarless of your size.
Tom Hyer probably makes the cut as one of Americas best early Champs.,I doubt Yankee Sullivan would.

[mcvey]

[quote]

From what I have read he was winning handily even after his hand was taken out of comision.



Any fight of that period would either have been under LPR or Broughton rules. As far as I know no other rule set existed.

As for asking me to produce evidence that his oponents were pugilists I would say that it is equaly incumbant upon you to provide evidence that they were not.



I would not place these men on a par with Mace but I think you are a bit too dismisive of the American champions of this period.

Morrisey was as you have observed something of a manufactured champion. Heenan at his best was good enough to beat Tom Sayers and gave Tom King a competitive fight. He would not have been able to do this if he was just a toughman.



I agree that the British champions were generaly of a somewhat higher calibre than their American counterparts prior to Sullivan. I will however beg a couple of exceptions.

Tom Molineux was clearly of a similar calibre to his British contemporaries and I think that Yankee Sullivan copuld have been.

Heenan himself was at least good enough to potentialy beat Sayers though King outclassesd him.



I live in the UK.



This was perhaps not as important then as it would be now.

Many of the top bareknucklers were esentialy middleweights and beating Sayers would be seen as an acomplishment regarless of your size.
Heenan's early fights were likely of the type Morrissey and Mcann engaged in ie bar room brawls,as we have detailed fights and sites going back to James Figg in 1720,why would prize fights of fights of Heenan's be unrecorded? As you are in the UK ,it might be of interest to you that Sayers fought about 6 of his contests ,within 20 miles of me.An old friend of my Dad's ,was a descendant of a famous English fighter,and had some memorabilia of him ,his name, like his ancestor was Tom Cribb.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]
Heenan's early fights were likely of the type Morrissey and Mcann engaged in ie bar room brawls


I think it is highly unlikley that Heenans early fights that the newspapers refer to were barroom brawls.

,as we have detailed fights and sites going back to James Figg in 1720,why would prize fights of fights of Heenan's be unrecorded?

A. Records of British fights are largley incomplete for the period. Most of Jem Maces early fights in the boxing boots are unrecorded for example.

B. Rocord isn America for the period were probably far more sparse given that the country didnt even have a transcontinental railway yet.

As you are in the UK ,it might be of interest to you that Sayers fought about 6 of his contests ,within 20 miles of me.An old friend of my Dad's ,was a descendant of a famous English fighter,and had some memorabilia of him ,his name, like his ancestor was Tom Cribb.

Verry interesting. On a related not I used to live across the road from the old hatchet pub where Tom Cribb and Tom Sayers trained.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]
Tom Hyer probably makes the cut as one of Americas best early Champs.

Ben Caunt challenged Tom Hyer but they never agreed terms.

That could have answered a few questions.