Pernell Whitaker at 135

[the cobra]

I made a thread a while back about Duran at 135, saying that he was very likely the most complete fighter I've ever seen and that I probably wouldn't pick anyone over him at the weight. Most were in agreement, but Whitaker was the name always being brought up. I personally can't decide between Duran and Whitaker. I don't think either one clearly wins, but Pernell has always been the fighter I give the best chance too, and I could certainly see him winning.

So, say that Whitaker could edge Duran as he holds a stylistic edge over him, who then can beat Whitaker at his best at 135lbs?

I don't want it to turn into another Duran-Whitaker thread, so we'll leave Duran out of consideration if you personally do favor him over Whitaker, but who else could have done it?

[ripcity]

I'll go ahead and say that Benny Leonard could beat Pernell Whitaker at 135. He could match Whitaker in terms of skills and power.

[Robbi]

Angelo Dundee had one of his fighters sparring with Duran. Can't mind his name. But trust me, he gave Duran fits with his movenent and fast punches. Whitaker beats Duran. IMO Whitaker's style would confuse Duran and drop off his workrate and effectiveness. Edwin Viruet made Duran look ordinary as well. Maybe Duran to some people was 'unmotivated' but mainly because Viruet was in front of him. Duran against a come forward, wreckless, type of fighter that night sure would have made him look motivated.


Whitaker owns Duran.

[Mantequilla]

Good call, i always thought Duran was a fraud...almost as bad as Buchanan and Dejesus and by association anyone they ever beat or were in the ring with.

[the cobra]

Again, don't turn this into another Duran-Whitaker thread.

Not considering Duran and leaving that match-up totally out of the equation, who beats Whitaker at 135?

[young griffo]

Mosley and De La Hoya might cause Whitaker some difficulty with their blends of speed and power and considerable size advantages although I think Pernell would still beat them.

Who else?

Maybe Leonard,Williams or even Floyd Mayweather but I'm not real confident about their chances.

[Loewe]

Angelo Dundee had one of his fighters sparring with Duran. Can't mind his name. But trust me, he gave Duran fits with his movenent and fast punches. Whitaker beats Duran. IMO Whitaker's style would confuse Duran and drop off his workrate and effectiveness. Edwin Viruet made Duran look ordinary as well. Maybe Duran to some people was 'unmotivated' but mainly because Viruet was in front of him. Duran against a come forward, wreckless, type of fighter that night sure would have made him look motivated.


Whitaker owns Duran.

Not again :lol: For the record I agree with you Whitaker and Leonard are the only two lws I think would beat Duran there. BUT I think the more experienced Duran would beat Whitaker at ww or sww.

I wouldn´t put anyone clearly to beat Sweet Pea, Leonard would be a good guess. Henry Armstrong could simply outwork him. But that´s it actually.

[TBooze]

Buchanan at his very best, maybe could edge the championship rounds to win a controversial decision.

Benny Leonard too, would give Whitaker problems that he had never faced before.

Ike Williams had enough speed and power to be a threat for Whitaker for the entire 15 rounds.

Beau Jack may of had enough spirit to give Whitaker a real challenge, although anything less than Beau at his very best and Whitaker dominates him.

If Whitaker fought under his era's rules and conditions, Joe Gans would have a shout...

[Sweet Pea]

Angelo Dundee had one of his fighters sparring with Duran. Can't mind his name. But trust me, he gave Duran fits with his movenent and fast punches. Whitaker beats Duran. IMO Whitaker's style would confuse Duran and drop off his workrate and effectiveness. Edwin Viruet made Duran look ordinary as well. Maybe Duran to some people was 'unmotivated' but mainly because Viruet was in front of him. Duran against a come forward, wreckless, type of fighter that night sure would have made him look motivated.


Whitaker owns Duran.You're overdoing it with statements like that.

[Robbi]

You're overdoing it with statements like that.


No I'm not. "owns" means to me he'd beat him. Said in 'tongue n cheek' as well, as the same word to others would mean a knockout or domination. And I don't give Duran the benefit of the doubt with his reputation and say "Whitaker by a point". I see Whitaker beating him by a slightly wider margin than that.

[Boro chris]

Good call, i always thought Duran was a fraud...almost as bad as Buchanan and Dejesus and by association anyone they ever beat or were in the ring with.


Wow I always thought the exact thing but it is good somebody else thinks so as well. Duran is so overrated it isnt funny. He isn't the most overrated fighter of all time but he is up there. Anyway I can't think of anybody who i would pick on a regular basis to beat Whitaker at 135.

You were aware of the blatant sarcasm coming from Mantequilla weren't you?
Unless you were being sarcastic yourself of course.
So hard to tell nowadays.

[Robbi]

Good call, i always thought Duran was a fraud...almost as bad as Buchanan and Dejesus and by association anyone they ever beat or were in the ring with.

:good Cheers. However, Duran is anything but a fraud. I hope you never fell for my bait, and it was "Whitaker owns Duran".

[TBooze]

Good call, i always thought Duran was a fraud...almost as bad as Buchanan and Dejesus and by association anyone they ever beat or were in the ring with.

Damn straight; that Tommy Hearns Suuuuuuucked and do not get me started on that Horrendous Hagler!;)

[Sweet Pea]

No I'm not. "owns" means to me he'd beat him. Said in 'tongue n cheek' as well, as the same word to others would mean a knockout or domination. And I don't give Duran the benefit of the doubt with his reputation and say "Whitaker by a point". I see Whitaker beating him by a slightly wider margin than that.It's not all based on reputation Rob, Duran was actually a pretty decent fighter. I think Whitaker could've beaten him at LW given the styles and the issues both fighters had stylistically, but at WW the Montreal or Palomino Duran beats any version of Pea during his WW run.

[Robbi]

It's not all based on reputation Rob, Duran was actually a pretty decent fighter. I think Whitaker could've beaten him at LW given the styles and the issues both fighters had stylistically, but at WW the Montreal or Palomino Duran beats any version of Pea during his WW run.


"Duran was actually a pretty decent fighter". Honest, I never knew that. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt based on his reputation. Some people are like that. Because Duran is a top 10 "pound for pound" fighter and his strong standing in history, thus he only loses by a point or small margin. I'm not saying you see things like that, but others do.

And the WW Duran beats Whitaker. I've said that countless times myself.

[PowerPuncher]

Outside of Duran, Mayweather-Whitaker is a coin toss at 135, awaits angry whitaker fans and PBF haters alikes opinions....Benny Leonard has to be a second choice although I'd favour Whitaker

Fighters that don't stand a chance which will no doubt be brough up: Armstrong, Chavez, Buchanon, Gans

[SuzieQ49]

Ike Williams would knock whitaker out

[PowerPuncher]

Ike Williams would knock whitaker out

Possibly if Williams could catch up to him, Ike has great technical skills and defense too which will give him successes but I would be somewhat concerned by his inconsitences and defeats

[Robbi]

Ike Williams would knock whitaker out


Whitaker was durable enough to take Williams' shots. And I can't see Williams landing enough with his power to 'outright' beat up Whitaker.

[Sweet Pea]

Williams was at his worst against that kind of stylist.

[Ezzard]

I have Pernell as a tier 1 LW

He's in there with Gans, Leonard, Armstrong, Ross, Duran (possibly Blackburn and Holly too if things had been different).

Realistically all of these guys can beat one another.

[SuzieQ49]

good list ezzard.


Whitaker was durable enough to take Williams' shots.

maybe, maybe not. I tend to think no lightweight in history can take the shots of a joe lous type combination puncher in ike.


Williams was at his worst against that kind of stylist.



On the flipside I could say Whitaker would be at his worst against a technical combination puncher like ike, who has the tools and skill to get to a defensive slickster like whitaker(like saddler got to pep)

[Sweet Pea]

On the flipside I could say Whitaker would be at his worst against a technical combination puncher like ike, who has the tools and skill to get to a defensive slickster like whitaker(like saddler got to pep)

Williams didn't fight like Saddler(whose reach made it capable for him to get ahold of Pep, who relied on lateral movement rather than fighting off the backfroot, unlike Whitaker, who was at his best against pressure fighters), and to be honest, I don't believe he did have the tools to get to a defensive slickster like Whitaker, that simply wasn't his game. Against pressure fighters, he was at his best as they came straight into his fire, and he was able to pick his spots and hurt them inside. Against boxers, being a very capable boxer himself, he would often opt to fight at their pace, and the general pace the bout took against most of his opponents. He just wasn't a pressure fighter, and while he was a capable boxer, he wasn't in Whitaker's league in that department. So stylistically, I don't see how it gets much worse for Ike, though it's definitely possible he could hurt Pea a time or two, possibly flooring him.

[the cobra]

So who sees Pernell as the best H2H ever at the weight?

Is there any one boxer that any of you would unquestionably favor over him at the weight?

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by the cobra
So who sees Pernell as the best H2H ever at the weight?

I don't know if I'll go that far without further contemplation. It is a possibility.

Originally posted by the cobra
Is there any one boxer that any of you would unquestionably favor over him at the weight?
No

[sweet_scientist]

Best chances imo would be:

Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Beau Jack and Esteban DeJesus. I'd probably only favour Armstrong amongst that lot, and not with a hell of a lot of confidence.

Guys like Benny Leonard and Joe Gans might be a chance but we probably don't have enough footage of them to make an accurate call. The half hour available of Leonard-Tendler is somewhat blurry and nuances get lost, and Leonard was past his peak in any case. Gans-Nelson you can't tell anything from unless you really use your imagination and of course, Gans was past his best there too.

I'd give a left-field chance to a green Sugar Ray Robinson, and perhaps even a green Pryor or an early Napoles. I wouldn't favour any of these guys, they simply didn't do enough at the weight to be favoured, but they are smokies.

[Sweet Pea]

I'd give Napoles the best chance. He never accomplished much because he simply wasn't given the opportunities, but by all accounts he was the better(or at least more effective) fighter at LW.

I can't definitively favor anyone over Pea at LW, but Napoles would have the best chance IMO, and I would call it basically 50/50.

[Mantequilla]

I'd give Buchanan a chance at winning a round.

Maybe Junior Witter could pull it off?.I hear he's a greater fighter than Nicolino Locche these days.

[Loewe]

I'd give Buchanan a chance at winning a round.

Maybe Junior Witter could pull it off?.I hear he's a greater fighter than Nicolino Locche these days.

:D

[My2Sense]

Whitaker at his peak at 135 was something special. He was one of the most complete fighters ever at that weight. He wasn't just an awkward stinker like he would be when he moved up in weight. What made him great at 135 wasn't really his defense, but the fact that he could combine his defense with an excellent offense (which he really didn't have when he moved up in weight).

Consider:
-He beat the piss out of Greg Haugen, dropping him along the way.
-He flattened Juan Nazario in the first round with a single punch ( :admin ).
-He almost KTFO Roger Mayweather.
-He went toe-to-toe with veteran brawler Jorge Paez and actually broke him down with body shots (:admin ).

Even when he fought defensively, as he did against Azumah Nelson, he still was very active and threw a lot of punches.

Whitaker was right up there with the best lightweights - Leonard, Duran, Armstrong, Ike Williams, etc. Who would've beat who is open to debate, but I don't see any matchup in which Whitaker would be a clear and decisive underdog.

[Ezzard]

good list ezzard.




maybe, maybe not. I tend to think no lightweight in history can take the shots of a joe lous type combination puncher in ike.





On the flipside I could say Whitaker would be at his worst against a technical combination puncher like ike, who has the tools and skill to get to a defensive slickster like whitaker(like saddler got to pep)

I too believe that Williams has a chance here. I always thought a mini Joe Louis or a mini Tommy Hearns would have the right style. I'm a fan of Williams but I'm not sure he's in that category. but he would have a better chance than most.

[Ezzard]

IMO to beat Whittaker you need need

1) precision power punching (like a mini Hearns; possibly Williams)

or

2) a swarmer with strength and stamina. if you can make a defensive guy use their defence by throwing leather then you can outhustle him to a decision (Armstrong, Duran)

or

3) Another defensive genius who turns it into a chess match (Leonard, Gans, Blackburn)

You can't say that Whittaker was greatest h2h LW. There are too many greats at the weight to make an honest assessment. I think that's just nonsense, but he has to be in the mix. It could be him...

[Sweet Pea]

He wasn't just an awkward stinker like he would be when he moved up in weight. An awkward stinker?

iRLDqCHJhCo

[Robbi]

Yeah, Whitaker was an awkward stinker. His opponents always claimed that he smelled. Should have taken a shower before entering the ring.

[PowerPuncher]

Oh Sugar Ray Robinson fought 20 fights on the 135 limit, thread closed :D

[JustinD]

Im suprised Mosley hasn't been mentioned more, 135 was surely his best weight.

[Robbi]

Im suprised Mosley hasn't been mentioned more, 135 was surely his best weight.

Longest amount of defenses and time span was spent at lightweight. However, I'd say 147. He certainly looked better there over 5 or 6 fights in succession. His best win also comes at the same weight against De La Hoya.