If 14 year old Tony Ayala had sparred with Duran instead of Cuevas....

[laxpdx]

At that time (Summer 77), young Tony was a WW, the only one in San Antonio at the time that was available to spar with champ Jose. Needless to say, Pipino was lucky this this was only a sparring match, or he wouldn't have been champion any longer. Dethroned by a 14 -year old, although not just any average one. I believe it was the third round, too.

If this 14-year old WW Tony Ayala had sparred with the Duran of Montreal......what a bloodbath. Funny as it seems, I favor Tony........

[Titan1]

It would be something, that's for sure.And it might continue outside of the ring.

[FlatNose]

Before Ayala got thrown in jail in 1983, there was talk of matching him with Duran, who was still struggling to get his career back on track after the "no mas" incident.Instead, Tony got 17 years for sodomizing a neighbor at knifepoint, and Roberto annihilated Davey Moore to cement his legend.
History could have been a lot different if the Ayala -Duran fight happened.But of course, "if" is the largest two letter word in the dictionary.

[Manassa]

At that time (Summer 77), young Tony was a WW, the only one in San Antonio at the time that was available to spar with champ Jose. Needless to say, Pipino was lucky this this was only a sparring match, or he wouldn't have been champion any longer. Dethroned by a 14 -year old, although not just any average one. I believe it was the third round, too.

If this 14-year old WW Tony Ayala had sparred with the Duran of Montreal......what a bloodbath. Funny as it seems, I favor Tony........

I'm lost for words :patsch

[JohnThomas1]

I'm lost for words :patsch

I'm not saying a thing hahaha

[bumdujour]

it is funny that there are people out there who still buy into sparring hype.

here is a hint: if it dont happen in a real fight, its simply not relevant.

[AREA 53]

I remember watching an old out of shape Duran Sparring with the Young undefeated, quick hard hitting Nigel Benn, Nigels Mentality at this time was to Rip opponents Apart in the first couple of Rounds, Nigel did not go Gently with the obviously out of shape Duran, Duran could not match Nigel for Speed or chrispness, do he concentrated on defense, making Benn Miss and out positioning him, it hinted at what Roberto could do when in shape,

I think the same would have happened against the Baby Bull, Egotist Alaya would have been looking to make a quick name for himself by Flooring Duran, or getting him to quite ther session, Roberto i think would of played Matador, and frustrated Alaya, if Alaya had overstepped the Mark, Roberto would probably have corrected hin with a body shot two to let him know that Roberto was in the comfortable cruise mode of Sparring...

In a real Fight between them Roberto (in Cuevas / Moore Form) would have towed Alaya into the deep waters of the later rounds,...then Drowned him.
Roberto to Versatile for a Bull with no Plan B.

[robert ungurean]

Duran would have murdered him the minute Ayala got outta line.

[ThinBlack]

Duran probably would've beaten Ayala up, and made him an example to any young fighter looking to enhance his reputation at Duran's expense.The cops would still have to be called, however, and Ayala wouldn't rape Duran.

[sugarsean]

Is this a serious thread ?

[MAG1965]

Duran's personality would not have allowed Ayala to beat up on him. I am surprised Cuevas let it happen, but he was probably caught off guard. I give Ayala credit for a good performance, but I don't really think it means he was better than the champion, especially someone like Cuevas who was a legit Hall of Fame fighter.

[Flea Man]

Duran would make the kid end his career before he reached his 'prime'. By being dead.

[Nightcrawler]

Duran would make the kid end his career before he reached his 'prime'. By being dead.

if he's lucky

[Nightcrawler]

At that time (Summer 77), young Tony was a WW, the only one in San Antonio at the time that was available to spar with champ Jose. Needless to say, Pipino was lucky this this was only a sparring match, or he wouldn't have been champion any longer. Dethroned by a 14 -year old, although not just any average one. I believe it was the third round, too.

If this 14-year old WW Tony Ayala had sparred with the Duran of Montreal......what a bloodbath. Funny as it seems, I favor Tony........

this is just plain disrespectful

[CassiusClayAli]

lax are you Tony? Why else would you mention him? No one even considers Tony great or even a good fighter. Kirkland now is considered better than Tony ever was. Tony caught Cuevas on a bad day and this is his claim to fame a sparring match?????? He never could fight with Cuevas or Hearns or Benitez, or Duran or Leonard or Hagler. THey would all beat him. They fought greats. They fought each other. Tony never proved anything. Why keep mentioning a guys name who did nothing in the boxing game? Nothing!Duran get beaten up by Tony in sparring? Ridiculous. Tony never sparred for fought anyone. Tony never had the honour of fighting a legend like Duran.

[Boxed Ears]

He'd have ended up simultaneously just as rapey and just as unimportant to boxing.

[I am Legion]

Ayala did nothing in the sport, I just don't get the speculation. For a while he was a good prospect and that's it.

Duran vs any 14 year-old kid??? This is child abuse and I doubt Duran would have anything to do with it. In 1983 however Duran does to him what he did to Davey Moore.

Guys, Duran is an ATG, of course he beats that hideous rapist Ayala.

:patsch:patsch:patsch

[ETM]

I dont think Ayala`s people would let him get in there with Duran. The ring was Duran`s office.

[ETM]

Duran vs any 14 year-old kid??? This is child abuse and I doubt Duran would have anything to do with it. In 1983 however Duran does to him what he did to Davey Moore.



:patsch:patsch:patsch
I agree with you. Ayala was a talented young fighter. He was strong and vicious. Problem is that its a bad idea to go tearing into Duran. You just dont do it. Hagler didnt even really do it. Barkley and Moore paid the price for standing with Duran, an older version.

[KuRuPT]

I honestly can't take this thread seriously. IF Tony A EVER got out of line with Duran in Sparring... Duran would've made an example out of him and probably ended his career if he got out of line too much. Tony had ZERO chance at 14 and only slightly better when he was older.

[red cobra]

Is this a serious thread ?
It can't be.

[redrooster]

I agree with you. Ayala was a talented young fighter. He was strong and vicious. Problem is that its a bad idea to go tearing into Duran. You just dont do it. Hagler didnt even really do it. Barkley and Moore paid the price for standing with Duran, an older version.

Hearns did it

[ETM]

Hearns did it
Hearns was a 6-2 freak of nature. Ayala didnt have that kind advantage.

[JohnThomas1]

Nobody could have reigned in Ayala that day, least of all those unaware of just what a dynamo they were up against. .

[Flea Man]

Except Duran would've absolutely mullered him and show him things he's never seen.

He must've been better as a kid, because as an adult he only showed basic and crude front foot marauding.

[MadcapMaxie]

I wouldn't favour a 14 year old George Foreman over Duran let alone Tony Ayala Jr. Duran gets arrested for child abuse.

[laxpdx]

Nobody could have reigned in Ayala that day, least of all those unaware of just what a dynamo they were up against. .

You are totally right! :good:good

But just think how rich you would be if you really did bet on Tony to smoke the entire 154 division, most esp. the fattened up LW named Duran. :yep

There is absolutely no way on earth with Tony's firepower and assault that he could lose to a former LW, not at 154. At these higher weights, Duran occasionally had his moments, but was great in name only.

Come on, John. Forget what all these other crowd followers think. Dare to be your own person.

[laxpdx]

If only people would see that the only reason Duran beat Moore so badly was because he thumbed his eye in round 1. It went from being competitive early on to Davey fighting for his life. His eye swelling shut certainly didn't help.

It otherwise would've been a mirror image of the Barkley fight, with Duran most likely taking a hard-fought decision.

[brickfists]

i really wish someone had a camera on hand so we could see for ourselves just how good ayala was that day. it seems crazy that a 14 year old kid could handle the champ of the world especially a murderer like cuevas

[Nightcrawler]

i really wish someone had a camera on hand so we could see for ourselves just how good ayala was that day. it seems crazy that a 14 year old kid could handle the champ of the world especially a murderer like cuevas

which is part of the problem of these gym wars and boxing tales. we don't know if ayala was that good that day, cuevas was that bad that day or somewhere in between.

in the end flea raised a good point, in that ayala as a pro never showed the skill or promise he supposedly showed in the gym that fateful day.

[hobgob21]

even at age 11 ayala would make duran go "no mas"

[MrOliverKlozoff]

Hello. Welcome to my ignore list room. Have fun and remember to tip your waitress. She puts up with a lot of assclowns and she brings your food out on time
and wears a funky barrette in her hair.

[Boxed Ears]

Hello. Welcome to my ignore list room. Have fun and remember to tip your waitress. She puts up with a lot of assclowns and she brings your food out on time
and wears a funky barrette in her hair.

:-( How many times do I have to tell you, Klozoff? Grownups deal with other people's comments. They do not use ignore lists. :patsch

[MrOliverKlozoff]

:-( How many times do I have to tell you, Klozoff? Grownups deal with other people's comments. They do not use ignore lists. :patsch

Do too.

[Boxed Ears]

Do too.

:pc

[big man]

So 14 year old Tony Ayala was a better fighter than 37 year old Tony Ayala that got beaten by Yori Boy Campas?

I doubt that seriously. Teens who are still haven't got hair on their cock don't beat grown men,no matter how far past their best the grown up is.

I reckon this story is bullshit or at the very least exaggerated and I'd be very interested in hearing Cuevas' version of events. Really Ayala's whole rep is based on this dubious story and if Cuevas says it's crap then we can safely assume Ayala was just a decent prospect and not some prodigy like some would have you believe.

[JohnThomas1]

“Tyson was not half the fighter at his peak that Ayala was. Ayala was a man-eater. But for me the question is, did they pull the psychological thorn out of his paw-the hate, the anger that made him who and what he was?”

-Boxing analyst Bert Sugar

[Senor Pepe']

The report of Tony Ayala Jr. handling Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas in a 1977
sparring session,,,,,,,

A complete false story,,,,,100%,,,,,,,,,,,,it never happened.

Nothing more than a publicity grab. A press release to just get attention.

He was the 156 lb. 1977 National Junior Olympic Champion at the time, 14 1/2 years-old.

He was fighting young kids for God's Sake.

What 'Moron Father' would put his kid in the ring with an experienced pro, let alone
a jaw-breaking World Champion.

And for most sparring sessions, you're wearing head-gear and using 'pillow gloves',
and if anyone gets stung the trainers will blow a whistle to call the session off.

Sparring session stories,,,,,,,,C'mon who buys this stuff.

[Boxed Ears]

-Boxing analyst Bert Sugar

"Tyson was not half the fighter at his peak that Ayala was."

:patsch:rofl Please, SNV, let Klozoff come back to see this. Bricks will be shat.

[JohnThomas1]

The report of Tony Ayala Jr. handling Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas in a 1977
sparring session,,,,,,,

A complete false story,,,,,100%,,,,,,,,,,,,it never happened.


It happened alright. Reports may be a little over the top (or not), but the best reports i tracked down had Ayala quite competitive. Of course we don't know how hard Cuevas went, but apparently he uttered the words "incredible" a few times.

[JohnThomas1]

"Tyson was not half the fighter at his peak that Ayala was."

:patsch:rofl Please, SNV, let Klozoff come back to see this. Bricks will be shat.

Good old Bert :lol:

[lora]

I have footage of a 15 year old Ayala being given a horrific one sided beating and then KO'ed inside a round by a young Tony Sibson.

"the horror...the horror" Sibson is heard to mutter on it, as his triple left hooks caved in the side of Ayala's face.

[Senor Pepe']

It happened alright. Reports may be a little over the top (or not), but the best reports i tracked down had Ayala quite competitive. Of course we don't know how hard Cuevas went, but apparently he uttered the words "incredible" a few times.

Sir,

This sparring session was supposed to take place in the Summer of 1977, in San Antonio.

Unfortunately, Jose Pipino Cuevas was in training, in Los Angeles, California, prepping for his
August 6th bout at 'The Olympic' against boxer-puncher Canadian Clyde Gray.

Pipino set up in Los Angeles, for his 6-week training camp, from late-June thru early-August...:deal

Now, you're going to tell me he took a flight back to San Antonio, just to spar with a 14 1/2 year old 'kid'.
There wasn't one sparring partner available in Los Angeles..........

That must have been 'news' for Pipino's sparring partners; Jose Palacios, Jose Figueroa and Arturo Zuniga.

[Legend X]

"Tyson was not half the fighter at his peak that Ayala was."


For "fighter", read "rapist", "scumbag", "piece of shit" ... then it makes sense.

[Flea Man]

I have footage of a 15 year old Ayala being given a horrific one sided beating and then KO'ed inside a round by a young Tony Sibson.

"the horror...the horror" Sibson is heard to mutter on it, as his triple left hooks caved in the side of Ayala's face.

:rofl :yep

[Senor Pepe']

Virtually every positive 'story' known to mankind about Tony Ayala Jr. is
a 'complete fabrication'.

In March 1981 in Syracuse, on the undercard of the Ray Leonard - Larry Bonds
Championship Fight.

I saw the supposedly 'indestructible terror' nearly get KO'd in 'one round' by a
20 year-old Junior-Middleweight named Mario Maldonado, who had a fully complete
mediocre record of 11-7-1.

Lou Duva turned about a dozen shades of green, when 'El Torito' crashed to the canvas.

Not that Mario Maldonado was some kind of bum, but he was not some kind of terror either,
as he only had a couple of knock-outs in his 11 wins.

[CassiusClayAli]

What I think is wrong is how Ayala is even mentioned in classic. The guy was not great. He never beat anyone really good and everything about him is talk. Ayala never proved against anyone he was anything close to Tyson quality as some say here. Saying Ayala would beat Duran in 1983? The only guy who really knocked out Duran is Hearns, and Hearns is a legend who had a big right hand and speed. No insult there. But Ayala would not have come close to stopping Duran. As a matter of fact Duran would love to fight Ayala. Stylewise and mindset Ayala would not want to fight Roberto Duran. Duran would have taken advantage of every flaw Ayala had. And Ayala would not have landed a punch on Duran. Cuevas would have also beaten Ayala in a real fight. Sparring? Pipino Cuevas had a bad day and it was sparring probably. If it did happen that is all you can say. Ayala never proved in his career he could come close to beating Cuevas or Duran or anyone of that top level. And the Duran of 154 pounds in 1983 or 1984 knocks out Ayala and I think about round 4 or 5. Wouldn't go long.

[Boxed Ears]

Virtually every positive 'story' known to mankind about Tony Ayala Jr. is
a 'complete fabrication'.

In March 1981 in Syracuse, on the undercard of the Ray Leonard - Larry Bonds
Championship Fight.

I saw the supposedly 'indestructible terror' nearly get KO'd in 'one round' by a
20 year-old Junior-Middleweight named Mario Maldonado, who had a fully complete
mediocre record of 11-7-1.

Lou Duva turned about a dozen shades of green, when 'El Torito' crashed to the canvas.

Not that Mario Maldonade was some kind of terror, as he only had a couple of knock-outs
in his 11 wins.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[redrooster]

What I think is wrong is how Ayala is even mentioned in classic. The guy was not great. He never beat anyone really good and everything about him is talk. Ayala never proved against anyone he was anything close to Tyson quality as some say here. Saying Ayala would beat Duran in 1983? The only guy who really knocked out Duran is Hearns, and Hearns is a legend who had a big right hand and speed. No insult there. But Ayala would not have come close to stopping Duran. As a matter of fact Duran would love to fight Ayala. Stylewise and mindset Ayala would not want to fight Roberto Duran. Duran would have taken advantage of every flaw Ayala had. And Ayala would not have landed a punch on Duran. Cuevas would have also beaten Ayala in a real fight. Sparring? Pipino Cuevas had a bad day and it was sparring probably. If it did happen that is all you can say. Ayala never proved in his career he could come close to beating Cuevas or Duran or anyone of that top level. And the Duran of 154 pounds in 1983 or 1984 knocks out Ayala and I think about round 4 or 5. Wouldn't go long.

no, you're wrong about that. very wrong

I remember back in the day when they were talking Duran against Tony. I thought Duran was crazy to take the fight with him. It seemed like a poor management decision. No one in the media was taking Duran

But Duran caught a break. Tony went to prision, a victim of his violent rage and Duran went on to lose to a far inferior foe. A foe I had never heard of

It was good that Duran got beat by laing, instead of Tony. I never liked the thought of seeing Duran hurt anyways.

I think a much better matchup would have been a fantasy match between Tony and one of the most unique fighters I ever had the privildege of seeing

his name? Micheal second to Nunn

[MAG1965]

no, you're wrong about that. very wrong

I remember back in the day when they were talking Duran against Tony. I thought Duran was crazy to take the fight with him. It seemed like a poor management decision. No one in the media was taking Duran

But Duran caught a break. Tony went to prision, a victim of his violent rage and Duran went on to lose to a far inferior foe. A foe I had never heard of

It was good that Duran got beat by laing, instead of Tony. I never liked the thought of seeing Duran hurt anyways.

I think a much better matchup would have been a fantasy match between Tony and one of the most unique fighters I ever had the privildege of seeing

his name? Micheal second to NunnI know this was directed at someone elses post, but I don't think Duran loses to Ayala. Duran was beaten by fast guys who used their speed and feet. I agree with someone who said Duran would beat Ayala faster than he beat Moore. At the time they talked about Ayala and Duran was in 1982 after Benitez made Duran look bad. Duran did well when you underestimated him because in the 1980s he still was good and great if you gave him the right way to fight like Barkley did in 1989. He was champ 3 times. Which is why I never bought the excuses he used when he lost to Hearns,Leonard,Benitez because knew he was good with everyone else and won titles.
Like I said, people thought after Benitez beat Duran that Duran was washed up. But Benitez was great and fought great at 154. It was more Benitez being great than Duran being washed up. Duran just did not fight well against those top fast greats.
I thought 154 was Benitez best weight.
After Benitez/Duran, Duran then came back in the spring of 1983 and beat a shopworn Cuevas, but he stopped him. It was a good win and whoever won that got a chance at the title. I don't think Ayala could beat Duran then. Ayala was not in the Hearns and Benitez or Hagler level obviously. Those guys beat Duran, but those guys were fellow legends. Ayala beating Duran, I just don't see it. I would almost say impossible. He might trouble Duran in the first round but Duran would then take over the fight. Tony had good power but Duran knew the tricks and if you didn't use speed and frustrate him you would not beat him. That would have been a fight made for Duran's style. He would have looked great.

[Senor Pepe']

Roberto Duran did have a flat spell in 1981 and 1982,,,,,,,,and those boxing
pundits in the know figured Roberto was washed up.

As for a Roberto Duran vs Tony Ayala,,,,,,,,,,,,,it only would only have happened
if one of them had a version of the Junior Middleweight Title,,,,,,,,

Unfortunately neither had it in those 2-years.

These things were said about El Torito before he fought Mario Maldonado

* The next Jake LaMotta
* The most professional talent ever at age 18
* A guarantee to win the Junior Middleweight Title by his 10th professional fight
* Will fight Ayub Kalule and Maurice Hope within 6-weeks of each other, and knock them both out
* Will challenge Sugar Ray Leonard within a year.

[ETM]

Duran would have picked him apart with counterpunches and angles. It would be exciting and Ayala probably has some moments early but Duran`s experiance and boxing skills would have been the difference.

Im sure had this fight come off there would have been alot of bad blood going into it. Duran would have got into the best shape possible and given the kid a lesson.

[zadfrak]

Exactly. He knows the guy was a threat and he would have been outslugged, not outpointed. Like Barkley later, he gets himself well prepared for the fight. And Roberto would have feasted on that opening Ayala gave with that left arm cradled at his waist. That arm needs to be about a foot higher since he did not move his head & that major defensive flaw was going to be a huge problem if he had stepped up in competition and eventually fought a Duran. Or a Hearns. McCallum. Mugabi. Jackson. Curry. Even Hilton.

[CassiusClayAli]

Exactly. He knows the guy was a threat and he would have been outslugged, not outpointed. Like Barkley later, he gets himself well prepared for the fight. And Roberto would have feasted on that opening Ayala gave with that left arm cradled at his waist. That arm needs to be about a foot higher since he did not move his head & that major defensive flaw was going to be a huge problem if he had stepped up in competition and eventually fought a Duran. Or a Hearns. McCallum. Mugabi. Jackson. Curry. Even Hilton.I agree. Look at the guys who beat Duran. They were a whose who of great fighters. Leonard,Hearns,Benitez,Hagler. Was Ayala in that class? You had to be to beat Duran from 1980-1984!! Duran would take Ayala apart!!! It is almost an insult to say Ayala would beat Duran. Duran was part of the fab 4!!!

[Legend X]

I agree. Look at the guys who beat Duran. They were a whose who of great fighters. Leonard,Hearns,Benitez,Hagler. Was Ayala in that class? You had to be to beat Duran from 1980-1984!! Duran would take Ayala apart!!! It is almost an insult to say Ayala would beat Duran. Duran was part of the fab 4!!!

You forgot Kirkland Laing. :good

[HMSTempleGarden]

the Duran of Montreal would be on death row if he fought 14 year Ayala.

[MMJoe]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[MMJoe]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Flea Man]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And yet the likes of lapdx still think this man was good.

Potentially a dangerous journeyman, but as it stands, a complete nobody.

[Flea Man]

Roberto Duran did have a flat spell in 1981 and 1982,,,,,,,,and those boxing
pundits in the know figured Roberto was washed up.

As for a Roberto Duran vs Tony Ayala,,,,,,,,,,,,,it only would only have happened
if one of them had a version of the Junior Middleweight Title,,,,,,,,

Unfortunately neither had it in those 2-years.

These things were said about El Torito before he fought Mario Maldonado

* The next Jake LaMotta
* The most professional talent ever at age 18
* A guarantee to win the Junior Middleweight Title by his 10th professional fight
* Will fight Ayub Kalule and Maurice Hope within 6-weeks of each other, and knock them both out
* Will challenge Sugar Ray Leonard within a year.

sadly people seem to think the same now, even with the evidence.

[Legend X]

There were several young fighters like Tony Ayala being built up on television in the 1980s.
Some became solid contenders, a few become champs, most fell by the wayside or became fringe contenders at best.

Some respected voices raved about Ayala, the best they had seen in years etc, but you can never tell with that sort of hype. The legend and hype continued to grow when he went to jail.

The guy was a real sicko, he should never have been let out of jail.
According to wikipedia, he'll be out again next year. :-(

[Legend X]

Looking at the Ayala fights now, it's actually quite shocking how ordinary he looked. Hype machine was in full gear for that one.
The kid had raw talent - heavy hands, aggression and a willingness to fight. But not much else. At 19 years old, he deserved to be regarded as a good prospect. Crazy how they had him hyped as the next big thing though.

[I am Legion]

no, you're wrong about that. very wrong

I remember back in the day when they were talking Duran against Tony. I thought Duran was crazy to take the fight with him. It seemed like a poor management decision. No one in the media was taking Duran

But Duran caught a break. Tony went to prision, a victim of his violent rage and Duran went on to lose to a far inferior foe. A foe I had never heard of

It was good that Duran got beat by laing, instead of Tony. I never liked the thought of seeing Duran hurt anyways.

I think a much better matchup would have been a fantasy match between Tony and one of the most unique fighters I ever had the privildege of seeing

his name? Micheal second to Nunn

Sorry but you're very wrong about this. I used to read every fight magazine going and not one ever said Ayala had a chance of beating Duran. Look at the evidence, ignore the hype and use your boxing knowledge (if you have any). Ayala was an 18 yr old prospect, nothing more nothing less.
:hi::hi::hi::hi:

[Senor Pepe']

I Am Legion,,,,,,,

Correct El Mundo',,,,,,,,,,

Though Tony Ayala Jr. was talented,,,,,,,,,,it was 'mucho hype' by Lou Duva and
Company to promote him.

Put him in the ring with 'selected opponents' and make him look indestructible.

[Flea Man]

I Am Legion,,,,,,,

Correct El Mundo',,,,,,,,,,

Though Tony Ayala Jr. was talented,,,,,,,,,,it was 'mucho hype' by Lou Duva and
Company to promote him.

Put him in the ring with 'selected opponents' and make him look indestructible.

Even that didn't work.

Seriously, the Ayala huggers on here are the biggest retards on the internet.

[redrooster]

Duran would have picked him apart with counterpunches and angles. It would be exciting and Ayala probably has some moments early but Duran`s experiance and boxing skills would have been the difference.

Im sure had this fight come off there would have been alot of bad blood going into it. Duran would have got into the best shape possible and given the kid a lesson.

counterpunches and angles :lol:

You think Tony's going to BOX with him?

look what happened in the Hearns fight. Did Tommy give Duran the time to give him angles?

[Flea Man]

counterpunches and angles :lol:

You think Tony's going to BOX with him?

look what happened in the Hearns fight. Did Tommy give Duran the time to give him angles?

You are a spastic. The footage of Ayala shows he was shit. So why do you persist??!!?

[redrooster]

Sorry but you're very wrong about this. I used to read every fight magazine going and not one ever said Ayala had a chance of beating Duran. Look at the evidence, ignore the hype and use your boxing knowledge (if you have any). Ayala was an 18 yr old prospect, nothing more nothing less.
:hi::hi::hi::hi:

I didnt see them picking Duran to win either

No way is Duran winning this. Tony is the naturally bigger guy.

bigger boned, stronger, younger, meaner, harder hitting and just approaching his best years

facing a an ex champ who wasnt that big a threat to the division and even went on went on to lose his next fight

people say "oh, Duran would only have lost to the two champions during that time, Hearns N Benitez who are all time greats b/c Leonard beat them"

Laing beat him and beat him good. Duran just couldnt keep up with younger fighters any more than Leonard could

So please dont believe the hype that Duran would counterpunch and give him angles, leading to his defeat. Just take it with a grain of salt like I did

Tony wouldnt even feel his punches and Duran's too flatfooted to outbox him.

That's why I said it would take a guy like Mike Second To Nunn. The man was slick, quick, and made fighters sick. Not sure if he could handle Tony either

Duran will tire out before the relentless assault of the younger, hungrier man, much like Sugar Ray Leonard did before then "unproven" Terry Norris

Duran holds on just long enough to lose on points.

[Flea Man]

Davey Moore was clearly a far superior fighter to Ayala, and probably would've starched him inside a round or two. Give it up.

[redrooster]

Davey Moore was clearly a far superior fighter to Ayala, and probably would've starched him inside a round or two. Give it up.

that's not what a poll of experts showed. The poll concluded that Davey would lose.

Duran didnt have enough of the fire to hold back Ayala who had too much smoke in his attack. I believe this wouldve been repeat of lamotta - Janiro back in the 40s, a brutal beating that took place inthe ring but lasted the full route

None of the jr middles of that time were safe, including Tommy Hearns, Benitez, Moore, McCallum, all them guys. The only way they could be kept safe and hold onto their titles was to litarally eliminate the competiton.

[Flea Man]

Yeah, he was shit mate, fuck off. Watch the footage. Crap fighter.

Moore clearly had enough power to stop the guy we've seen get dropped by a NOBODY just a page before.

[redrooster]

Yeah, he was shit mate, fuck off. Watch the footage. Crap fighter.

Moore clearly had enough power to stop the guy we've seen get dropped by a NOBODY just a page before.

I seen the footage before u were born

"See the footage" :patsch

maybe u should see the footage of Moore. :yep

Wasnt he the guy on the Hagler-Leonard undercard?

How come he clearly didnt have the power to stop Aquino? :lol:

[redrooster]

some people! They're just so IGNORANT!

[Shake]

Yeah, a 14-year old kid coming forward and pressuring Duran, that's a formula for success.

[Flea Man]

He clearly had the power to stop Kalule.

[Flea Man]

some people! They're just so IGNORANT!

Nope, you're just fucking deluded my son.

[redrooster]

Nope, you're just fucking deluded my son.

i'm older than u. How can I be your son?

[KuRuPT]

Rooster... I actually can't take you seriously now... I'm being serious... The fact that you actually think an UNPROVEN PROSPECT.. WOULD beat Duran throws all your credibility out the door. If you wouldn't said.. "has a slim chance" I still would've laughed but it would've been more reasonable. However, your stance is simple too silly to actually be true.

[Senor Pepe']

Here's one,,,,,,,,,

Lou Duva turned down Nino Gonzalez and Rusty Rozenberger as August 1981 opponents
for the future 'Greatest Talent in Boxing'.

Mr. Duva did approve,,,,,,,,,,,,Nicanor Camacho though.

[Legend X]

I'll repeat again, it's shocking how ordinary Ayala actually looks in reviewing the fights years later.
I remember him being over-hyped and over-rated, but it's ridiculous when you look at the fights again compared to what they were saying then.
Another thing you notice is he didn't look like a proper light-middle. He probably should have been down at 140.

The only reason anyone made Jake LaMotta comparisons is because Raging Bull was in the cinemas, and I guess they knew Ayala was some sort of asshole.

In all seriousness, Joe Mesi justified hype more than Ayala did. And Mesi's received a ton more scepticism about his abilities too.

To be fair to Ayala, he was young enough to have been given attention as a tremendous prospect, but he wasn't even the brightest prospect at that weight.
Mugabi would have killed him, for a start.

[Flea Man]

Kalule would've sparked him worse than he did Ho Joo.

[Flea Man]

i'm older than u. How can I be your son?

I'm in my 70s. Son.

[ETM]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Ayala looks like a poor man`s Fernando Vargas.:good

Moore wouldve had an outstanding chance of beating Ayala.

[Flea Man]

Ayala just looks ultra basic, loads up on every shot.

I've seen all the 'prime' footage there is of him and his power seems the accumulative
sort.

Really struggle to see why he has his fanboys :huh Nothing special at all, and not the kinda' guy you'd want to big up anyway.

He and James Kirkland would be a good scrap. As has been noted above, Ayala looked small at 154 and always soft around the belly. Obviously they were chasing big money with him but I see him losing to most at that time at 154/160 and I doubt he'd be arsed to be cutting in those days.

Was never going anywhere for so many reasons.

[Senor Pepe']

Don't think Tony Ayala Jr. could have ever made 147 lbs.

Though a bit smallish at a tad over 5' 7", he was thick-chested and
thicker around the middle than most 154 lb. fighters.

Remember in 1977 and 1978 he was fighting at 156 lbs. as an amateur, and
165 lbs. in 1979 as an amateur middleweight.

So the 155 lb. weight range was perfect for him. But at 160 lbs., there was no
way he would have been a dominant force. Not with the talent out there at that time.

As for the 154' Junior-Middleweight Title,,,,,,,,,,what did Eddie Gazo, Masashi Kudo
and Tadashi Mihara accomplish that 'El Torito' couldn't.

[lora]

Kudo is one of the greatest pure boxers of the modern era

[redrooster]

Rooster... I actually can't take you seriously now... I'm being serious... The fact that you actually think an UNPROVEN PROSPECT.. WOULD beat Duran throws all your credibility out the door. If you wouldn't said.. "has a slim chance" I still would've laughed but it would've been more reasonable. However, your stance is simple too silly to actually be true.

lots of fighters are unproven even when they challenge for titles

It was said Foreman was unproven cuz all u saw were no names month after month.

They said no way when Richie Sandoval challenged for the title but won every round & stripped the title from a dominant champion

people just tend to underestimate certain fighters and that's the case here

I could go into so many more here up against heavy favorites; Terry Norris, Lloyd Honeyghan, Buster Douglas

ususally, I pick fighters who have the superior physical attibutes over the opponent and that's what we have here

in fact, just about evrywhere u look, Tony has the edge over Duran: youth, strength, power and much the hungrier of the two fighters

Lok over Duran over Laing & Batten and you'll see I'm right

[Legend X]

Davey Moore had more 'advantages' over Duran, and Duran beat the hell out of him.

[Flea Man]

Don't think Tony Ayala Jr. could have ever made 147 lbs.

Though a bit smallish at a tad over 5' 7", he was thick-chested and
thicker around the middle than most 154 lb. fighters.

Remember in 1977 and 1978 he was fighting at 156 lbs. as an amateur, and
165 lbs. in 1979 as an amateur middleweight.

So the 155 lb. weight range was perfect for him. But at 160 lbs., there was no
way he would have been a dominant force. Not with the talent out there at that time.

As for the 154' Junior-Middleweight Title,,,,,,,,,,what did Eddie Gazo, Masashi Kudo
and Tadashi Mihara accomplish that 'El Torito' couldn't.

Kudo would be way too strong for Ayala, and beat him to the punch with constant straights all night.

[Flea Man]

Duran is even the harder puncher.

lots of fighters are unproven even when they challenge for titles

It was said Foreman was unproven cuz all u saw were no names month after month.

They said no way when Richie Sandoval challenged for the title but won every round & stripped the title from a dominant champion

people just tend to underestimate certain fighters and that's the case here

I could go into so many more here up against heavy favorites; Terry Norris, Lloyd Honeyghan, Buster Douglas

ususally, I pick fighters who have the superior physical attibutes over the opponent and that's what we have here

in fact, just about evrywhere u look, Tony has the edge over Duran: youth, strength, power and much the hungrier of the two fighters

Lok over Duran over Laing & Batten and you'll see I'm right

[frankenfrank]

Davey Moore had more 'advantages' over Duran, and Duran beat the hell out of him.
fouling over n initially seriously injured opponent doesn't count .

[Senor Pepe']

Kudo would be way too strong for Ayala, and beat him to the punch with constant straights all night.

Flea Man,,,,,,

Masashi Kudo,,,,,,,,,,man that dude was 'tough as nails'

Could be regarded as the most physically strong 154 lb. fighter ever.

Ain't nobody knocking him down,,,,,,,,nobody...

[lora]

You haven't really lived until you've watched my herky jerky out of sync youtube upload of his rematch with Manuel Gonzalez multiple times.

[Flea Man]

:rofl Painful upload that(!)

[redrooster]

Davey Moore had more 'advantages' over Duran, and Duran beat the hell out of him.

what advantages?

I see Moore Ayala going the way of the Aquino fight. Davey could only handle so much agression

[redrooster]

fouling over n initially seriously injured opponent doesn't count .

u said a mouthful

nobody ever brings up that thumb. They all just pretend it never happend

[redrooster]

Flea Man,,,,,,

Masashi Kudo,,,,,,,,,,man that dude was 'tough as nails'

Could be regarded as the most physically strong 154 lb. fighter ever.

Ain't nobody knocking him down,,,,,,,,nobody...

too bad he couldnt fight

I'd give him 3 rds with Tony

[Senor Pepe']

Lets keep this thread focused on the title,,,,,,,:deal

More on 'Altar Boy' Ayala please....

Lou Duva,,,,,

'Tony is a good boy,,,,,,,,I consider him my son'.

[Flea Man]

:lol:

[redrooster]

Lets keep this thread focused on the title,,,,,,,:deal

More on 'Altar Boy' Ayala please....

Lou Duva,,,,,

'Tony is a good boy,,,,,,,,I consider him my son'.

you were the one telling us how awesome Masashi Kudo was

[Senor Pepe']

January 1, 1983
West Patterson, New Jersey

'The Good Boy'

After he was arrested for raping and sodomizing his neighbor, a 30 year-old school teacher.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[redrooster]

January 1, 1983
West Patterson, New Jersey

'The Good Boy'

After he was arrested for raping and sodomizing his neighbor, a 30 year-old school teacher.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

How does that prove your point? You said he wasn't much now you're showing pics of him sitting in prison to spite him?

I dont suppose you had the nerve to get in there yourself and take that pic

[Nightcrawler]

Lets keep this thread focused on the title,,,,,,,:deal

More on 'Altar Boy' Ayala please....

Lou Duva,,,,,

'Tony is a good boy,,,,,,,,I consider him my son'.

sounds good. tony "good boy" ayala gets his ass kicked, eyes thumbed and face laced.

[Legend X]

How does that prove your point? You said he wasn't much now you're showing pics of him sitting in prison to spite him?

I dont suppose you had the nerve to get in there yourself and take that pic

If there was any justice in the world we'd all be in there giving Tony a good hiding with baseball bats ..... wouldn't we ? :think

[Flea Man]

Charlie Weir was the better punching prospect IMO. Ayala looks ABYSMAL.

[Senor Pepe']

How does that prove your point? You said he wasn't much now you're showing pics of him sitting in prison to spite him?

I dont suppose you had the nerve to get in there yourself and take that pic

Easy there Bloody Rooster,,,,,

I said Tony Ayala Jr. was an excellent talent,,,,,,,,,,,in the ring....:deal

Anyone with boxing knowledge would be foolish to say he wasn't talented.

And if he continued with his profession, he would have undoubtedly
become a Junior-Middleweight Champion.

[Flea Man]

Easy there Bloody Rooster,,,,,

I said Tony Ayala Jr. was an excellent talent,,,,,,,,,,,in the ring....:deal

Anyone with boxing knowledge would be foolish to say he wasn't talented.

And if he continued with his profession, he would have undoubtedly
become a Junior-Middleweight Champion.

Spurious! And the penultimate statement extremely unfair, he showed very little ability.

[Senor Pepe']

Spurious! And the penultimate statement extremely unfair, he showed very little ability.

Flea Man,,,,,,,

Don't be a 'mosquito',,,,,,,

The kid did go 140-7 as an amateur.
And undefeated in 10-years.
Won '2' National Junior Olympic Titles (156 lbs.) {1977 and 1978}
Won National Golden Gloves Title (165 lbs.) {1979}

He can't be without 'some talent'.

[Flea Man]

I go with my eyes pal.

[JohnThomas1]

Sir,

This sparring session was supposed to take place in the Summer of 1977, in San Antonio.

Unfortunately, Jose Pipino Cuevas was in training, in Los Angeles, California, prepping for his
August 6th bout at 'The Olympic' against boxer-puncher Canadian Clyde Gray.

Pipino set up in Los Angeles, for his 6-week training camp, from late-June thru early-August...:deal

Now, you're going to tell me he took a flight back to San Antonio, just to spar with a 14 1/2 year old 'kid'.
There wasn't one sparring partner available in Los Angeles..........

That must have been 'news' for Pipino's sparring partners; Jose Palacios, Jose Figueroa and Arturo Zuniga.

It's not impossible he went to San Antonio. You're taking a blind stab at potential reasons. Nobody said he travelled there to spar a kid, the story goes it took quite some banter for him to allowed to spar Cuevas at all. He certainly wasn't there for tony as such.

Tony Padilla had this to say apparently

“San Antonio fight promoter, Tony Padilla, who has had his differences with the Ayalas, was there the afternoon Cuevas and young Tony went at it. He remembers Lupe Sanchez, Pipino’s manager, saying to Cuevas afterward, ‘Aren’t you ashamed --- a 14-year-old boy doing that to you?’ And Pipino, Padilla said, was muttering ‘Increible, increible’ – which is incredible in English.”

[Senor Pepe']

John Thomas,,,

A 14 1/2 year old kid,,,,,,,,who wasn't even old enough to compete in
the Golden Gloves, sparring with Pipino Cuevas.

Tony Padilla,,,,,,,,,,,,a fight promoter,,,,,,,,,,,,would never fabricate a story.

It would be one thing if Pipino was in training in San Antonio, but he was in
Los Angeles during that time frame.

Tony Padilla never gave a date of this supposed sparring session.

[KuRuPT]

I honestly can't take Rooster seriously... Duran destroys Ayala and makes him become even less important than he already has become

[Senor Pepe']

Tony Ayala Jr. did have more than enough skills to remain a Top 10 Junior-Middleweight
for awhile.

Still would have liked to see him against;
James 'Hard Rock' Green
Tony Braxton
Clint Jackson
Earl Hargove
Nino Gonzalez

At least '2' of them, to validate his high ranking.

[Flea Man]

Weir would've been better IMO.

[redrooster]

I honestly can't take Rooster seriously... Duran destroys Ayala and makes him become even less important than he already has become

Well then you can't take Leon SPinks seiously when he beat ALi with only 7 pro fights, which is less than what Ayala had. But he still beat him and in a 15 round fight which makes it that much more impressive. Not only that but I had a difficult time trying to give Ali any rounds

Whom had Leon fought just to qualify for a title shot?

Foreman destroyed Frazier. Which fighter had the more impressive resume and whose resume looked like crap?

Same with Richard Sandoval who up till upsetting four year titlist Jeff Chandler, had only two wins over mere prospect Harold Petty

You're just repeating yourself and adding nothing new. if you can't address my points then maybe you shouldnt be taken seriously

[Flea Man]

Yeah but none of those look as shitty as Ayala did.

[KuRuPT]

You're not making ANY points though. I will play a little for now...

First, Ali was WELL past it when Leon beat him.. not close to where Duran was. Correct? I'm not sure why I have to address such terrible examples

Second, just because you can name a few fighters that weren't prominent at the time and beat more experience good fighters.... doesn't mean that NOW those are the rule... No, they are still exceptions to the rule. Just like in any other sport there will be anomolies, but that doesn't mean we give such rare occurances the majority, in fact, we make them the underdog. You're doing the opposite and making them the favorite.

Third, please list for me the "skills" you think that Ayala possessed that were superior to Duran... cause the way I count them... Duran has him crushed in skills, tools and virtually everything. Plus did I mention how this is a fight between a MAN and a BOY?

Fourth, not only are you having to make great leaps to figure out a way Ayala beats duran.. you're doing so WITH NO EVIDENCE. The first type of case building. It's all conjecture. You can say he had a better beard.. better power... better speed.. yet he NEVER PROVED THESE qualities against world class foes.. shit.. he never proved them against good foes... Yet, you act like they are facts submitted into evidence, when in fact they are conjecture. Duran has facts in evidence, not the other way around.

[redrooster]

I already gave them and besides, did not kirkland Laing give Duran a boxing lesson?

I hadnt even HEARD of KL leading up to that fight but here he was kicking butt

You think I have no reason to think Ayala couldnt do the same?

Like I said before, Tony was younger, and natrually bigger. that meant he had the superior stamina

don't deny it. i've seen Duran tire in the Simms fight. Plus that dreadful, lethargic fight against not much Benitez. How's he going to stand up to a fierce tiger like Tony? To keep telling yourself that he would is just delusional

and he'd kick that Kudo Masashi all over the place for a 5 rd tko

[Flea Man]

:lol:

[Senor Pepe']

Roberto Duran vs. Tony Ayala Jr. (Late-1981)

If you want to see what Tony Ayala Jr. would look like versus Roberto Duran.

Check out the August 9, 1981 bout with Roberto Duran versus Nino Gonzalez.

A fairly good scrap, with Roberto getting the better of a tough-kid (22 year-old).

Nino at 5' 8", had a similar style to Tony Ayala Jr. Maybe not as much power,
but his boxing skills and defense were equal to Ayala's.

Nino had one thing on Ayala at that time, he had never been floored or seriously
hurt in a bout.

Gonzalez, had compiled a record of 24-1-0 (13 KO's), and did beat a bunch of
decent journeyman. Only loss, a close decision to Steve Delgado, a loss that
he later reversed by KO'ing Delgado in a rematch.

Both Nino Gonzalez and Tony Ayala Jr. were based out of New Jersey, and both had
sparred with the same group of gym sparring partners.

[Flea Man]

Who is this genius?

[Senor Pepe']

I'm no expert,,,,,,,,,

But if Curtis Ramsey (an overblown Light-Welterweight) who was
stopped by Lightweight Andy Ganigan,,,,,, can go 10-Rounds with Tony Ayala Jr.,
than how can this supposed 'Warrior from San Antonio',,,,,,

be the next best thing since 'sliced bread'.

[redrooster]

I'm no expert,,,,,,,,,

But if Curtis Ramsey (an overblown Light-Welterweight) who was
stopped by Lightweight Andy Ganigan,,,,,, can go 10-Rounds with Tony Ayala Jr.,
than how can this supposed 'Warrior from San Antonio',,,,,,

be the next best thing since 'sliced bread'.

hey, no offense but my "talented" bulldozer would make mincemeat of your Kudo

[Brownies]

Weird thread.

[lora]

hey, no offense but my "talented" bulldozer would make mincemeat of your Kudo

Is this some sort of thinly-veiled Ayala rape fantasy?:lol::lol:

Christ, the macho-worshipping Ayala homoeroticism from you and Lax was bad enough.

[Senor Pepe']

hey, no offense but my "talented" bulldozer would make mincemeat of your Kudo

Too bad Masashi Kudo retired in 1979,,,,,,,

Otherwise he would have utilized his wrestling skills on Tony Ayala Jr.,
and grappled him with a rear naked choke hold.

Can't you just see 'El Torito',,,,,,,'Tapping Out'

If Masashi failed,,,,,,there would be;
* Jae-Doo Yuh
* Ho Joo
* Jae-Keum Lim
* Tadashi Mihara

Tony can't avoid the 'Orient Express'

[laxpdx]

I never thought this would provoke so many responses. :think:think

[laxpdx]

Easy there Bloody Rooster,,,,,

I said Tony Ayala Jr. was an excellent talent,,,,,,,,,,,in the ring....:deal

Anyone with boxing knowledge would be foolish to say he wasn't talented.

And if he continued with his profession, he would have undoubtedly
become a Junior-Middleweight Champion.

Welcome to the ranks of deeper enlightenment.

[johnmaff36]

At that time (Summer 77), young Tony was a WW, the only one in San Antonio at the time that was available to spar with champ Jose. Needless to say, Pipino was lucky this this was only a sparring match, or he wouldn't have been champion any longer. Dethroned by a 14 -year old, although not just any average one. I believe it was the third round, too.

If this 14-year old WW Tony Ayala had sparred with the Duran of Montreal......what a bloodbath. Funny as it seems, I favor Tony........
I have read, and heard, some stuff in my time on this earth regarding who would beat who in mythical match-ups, but the last sentence of the above post is the most ludicrous speculation i have ever come across. A 14yr old (albiet a very good 14yr old, but 14yr old none-the-less) beats a 29/30yr old good Duran??????? Jesus wept !!!!:shock::shock:

[johnmaff36]

And another point

Havent some guys on here ever given the thought that Duran was takin it easy on the kid?? It DOES happen

[Senor Pepe']

Sparring Sessions,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Absolutely the most useless tool to gauge a fighter.

[ETM]

I already gave them and besides, did not kirkland Laing give Duran a boxing lesson?

I hadnt even HEARD of KL leading up to that fight but here he was kicking butt

You think I have no reason to think Ayala couldnt do the same?


Yes its possible. Ive seen too much over the years in the sport of boxing to say its CANT happen.

If Ayala were to face an unmotivated, unfocused, distinterested version of Duran who faced Kirkland Laing then he would have a reasonable chance.

Problems is that if the fight were actually signed Ayala`s own behavior would probably be his undoing. He would mouth off at the press conferences, maybe start a scuffle, push Duran, maybe even spit on him like he once did to an opponent. Big Mistake

It would be a father/son type of lesson being taught once the bell rang.

As far as the bigger, younger, stronger thing? Hagler, Moore and Barkley were all that and none of them could stop Duran. Ayala sure as hell isnt going to do it.

[redrooster]

I have read, and heard, some stuff in my time on this earth regarding who would beat who in mythical match-ups, but the last sentence of the above post is the most ludicrous speculation i have ever come across. A 14yr old (albiet a very good 14yr old, but 14yr old none-the-less) beats a 29/30yr old good Duran??????? Jesus wept !!!!:shock::shock:

I've seen 14 year olds brutalize and kick the asses of 18 yr olds in street fights. They are less inhibited and very quick to let their fists fly. You just havent seen it the way I have

[Senor Pepe']

I've seen 14 year olds brutalize and kick the asses of 18 yr olds in street fights. They are less inhibited and very quick to let their fists fly. You just havent seen it the way I have


Rooster Man,,,,,,

Now we're going from 'sparring sessions' to 'street fights'.

Just how many times did you see the 14 1/2 year old Tony Ayala Jr.
fight,,,,,,,,,that would be in the Summer of 1977.

[MAG1965]

Sparring Sessions,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Absolutely the most useless tool to gauge a fighter.it doesn't mean much. Some guys take it easy in sparring sessions and others go full energy.

[laxpdx]

And another point

Havent some guys on here ever given the thought that Duran was takin it easy on the kid?? It DOES happen

There is that, but Cuevas himself turned pro at only 14. If nobody took it easy on him, Pipino's not likely to extend that courtesy himself. Boxing is a brutal sport. You don't belong in it if you can't take the abuse.

Pipino was only 19 when he met the 14-year old prodigy. There couldn't be that much of a size difference. According to Tony Sr., Torito was always really strong and built like a little bull, hence his nickname.

I read somewhere on the internet that when Tony was 11, he KO'd a 19-year old Mexican amateur champ. However, the real irony was that older brother Sammy was originally supposed to fight the guy, but he had to cancel because young Tony had busted his mouth in a scuffle a day or two before.

[Senor Pepe']

laxpdx,

Can someone come up with who in their right mind, would allow a young teenage kid
to fight older fighters.

Not any United States Amateur Official that I know of.

No National Golden Gloves supervisor, and definitely not any National A.A.U. official.

And clearly no National Junior Olympic Boxing coach.

Having talent (ie; Tony Ayala Jr.) is one thing, but anything like allowing these supposed
sparring sessions is 'abnormal behavior' for a parent or a boxing coach.

[johnmaff36]

I've seen 14 year olds brutalize and kick the asses of 18 yr olds in street fights. They are less inhibited and very quick to let their fists fly. You just havent seen it the way I have
So have i. Ive done it myself. But we're talking a whole different level here:good

[laxpdx]

laxpdx,

Can someone come up with who in their right mind, would allow a young teenage kid
to fight older fighters.

Not any United States Amateur Official that I know of.

No National Golden Gloves supervisor, and definitely not any National A.A.U. official.

And clearly no National Junior Olympic Boxing coach.

Having talent (ie; Tony Ayala Jr.) is one thing, but anything like allowing these supposed
sparring sessions is 'abnormal behavior' for a parent or a boxing coach.

Yes I can...Tony Ayala Sr. He had his sons in boxing gloves before kindergarten. He not only taught them how to fight, but he would also train them to increase pain tolerance. He would frequently hit or pinch his sons as hard as they could take, and have them do vice versa...he made them eat jalapenos for meals...they weren't allowed to cry about anything. He ultimately pulled them out of school in favor of fight careers.
To my knowledge, Paulie, the youngest one (not the former champion), was the only one who finished school.

Basically, Tony Sr. raised his sons like pitbulls.

[Legend X]

Junior should have been exterminated like a pitbull too.

[Bollox]

Yes I can...Tony Ayala Sr. He had his sons in boxing gloves before kindergarten. He not only taught them how to fight, but he would also train them to increase pain tolerance. He would frequently hit or pinch his sons as hard as they could take, and have them do vice versa...he made them eat jalapenos for meals...they weren't allowed to cry about anything. He ultimately pulled them out of school in favor of fight careers.
To my knowledge, Paulie, the youngest one (not the former champion), was the only one who finished school.

Basically, Tony Sr. raised his sons like pitbulls.

The old man tried to turn his sons into something he was never capable of being :!:

[I am Legion]

Look, Boxing has enough image problems without people raking over Ayala's career. He is a total scumbag, a nasty violent rapist who doesn't deserve any mention at all in a respected forum like this. I feel guilty just making this post but something needs to be said.
:nono:nono:nono:nono:nono:nono

[Senor Pepe']

Look, Boxing has enough image problems without people raking over Ayala's career. He is a total scumbag, a nasty violent rapist who doesn't deserve any mention at all in a respected forum like this. I feel guilty just making this post but something needs to be said.
:nono:nono:nono:nono:nono:nono

So True,,,,,,,,

He was a 'bad seed'
-----------------------------------------------------------
As far as that supposed 'sparring session'.
No one has come up without an exact or approximate date,
other than the Summer of 1977 and in San Antonio somewhere.

We can confirm that Pipino Cuevas was in Los Angeles from
June 28, 1977 thru August 10, 1977.

He had his training camp set up in Los Angeles for the WBA Title fight
versus Clyde Gray at 'The Olympic' on Saturday, August 6th.

Pipino went back to Mexico City after that bout, and participated in
a victory celebration on Saturday, August 13th.

He was in 'celebrity mode' for most of August.

And was 'on vacation' until the end of September.

First week of October, set up training camp in Mexico City for his
scheduled November bout versus Angel Espada.

On the other hand,,,,Tony Ayala Jr. was in Lincoln, Nebraska
from June 15 thru June 22 for the National Junior Olympics.

The 'Time Window' for this supposed sparring session does not line up.

[Flea Man]

Regardless of what happened, the footage tells the ztory: Ayala was poor.

[JohnThomas1]

laxpdx,

Can someone come up with who in their right mind, would allow a young teenage kid
to fight older fighters.


You do know Roberto Duran flattened a teenage amateur in sparring right?

[Senor Pepe']

You do know Roberto Duran flattened a teenage amateur in sparring right?

Yes,,,,,,,,,,,and beat up a horse also.........:lol:

[big man]

LOL at this piece of shit thread running 10 pages.

Fuck I recall a thread on Les Darcy beating up Fred Fulton that earnt huge derision in some quarters because of a lack of reported written accounts of the session although there were numerous first hand verbal accounts.

Yet the Ayala-Cuevas sparring session,even though it happened realtively recently yet suffers the same factual problems and a lack of credible first hand accounts is still accorded creedence to this day.

But as the Fleaman says the proof is in the pudding. The tubby,punch telegraphing, stationary headed,piss weak defensively Ayala who fought a carefully selected batch of spuds,bums and has beens is there on film for all to see.

Really it's a nonsense that this cunt still gets attention at all these days.

Why not big up Jo el Scott or James Butler while were at it?

[JohnThomas1]

Yes,,,,,,,,,,,and beat up a horse also.........:lol:

Ok, so you don't believe this Duran one (sparring) either?

[KuRuPT]

LOL at this piece of shit thread running 10 pages.

Fuck I recall a thread on Les Darcy beating up Fred Fulton that earnt huge derision in some quarters because of a lack of reported written accounts of the session although there were numerous first hand verbal accounts.

Yet the Ayala-Cuevas sparring session,even though it happened realtively recently yet suffers the same factual problems and a lack of credible first hand accounts is still accorded creedence to this day.

But as the Fleaman says the proof is in the pudding. The tubby,punch telegraphing, stationary headed,piss weak defensively Ayala who fought a carefully selected batch of spuds,bums and has beens is there on film for all to see.

Really it's a nonsense that this cunt still gets attention at all these days.

Why not big up Jo el Scott or James Butler while were at it?

Which is worse.. this thread actually being made and going on this long(considering a teenager ever having a chance against a primed Duran).. or... people actually thinking he has a chance.... I guess B, but both are pretty atrocious.

[lora]

ach, i don't think ayala was THAT bad a fighter.Good enough offensively to hang around the top ten for years and beat other so-so contenders that matched up poorly with him like Gregory, Larocca(maybe), Herrera etc, but yeah not good enough to be a slightly creepy fixation for boxing fans as some sort of denied uber-prospect 25-30 years after his prime.

Then again some of the pro ayala guys are just outright trolls like Rooster who people always bite with.He's just taking the piss and lax is probably a rapist or extreme sexual deviant in real life.

[Legend X]

ach, i don't think ayala was THAT bad a fighter.Good enough offensively to hang around the top ten for years and beat other so-so contenders that matched up poorly with him like Gregory, Larocca(maybe), Herrera etc, but yeah not good enough to be a slightly creepy fixation for boxing fans as some sort of denied uber-prospect 25-30 years after his prime.

Yeah, he might have even become good enough to have won a title sometime in the era of Santos, Drayton, Hilton, Hines .... maybe.



Then again some of the pro ayala guys are just outright trolls like Rooster who people always bite with.He's just taking the piss and lax is probably a rapist or extreme sexual deviant in real life.


I think you're right on both counts.

[lora]

I actually prefer Hilton over him, for a fighter in the same mold.When he was in shape he had a much higher workrate, was tougher and was a brutal body puncher.

That Benitez KO was brutal

[Flea Man]

ach, i don't think ayala was THAT bad a fighter.Good enough offensively to hang around the top ten for years and beat other so-so contenders that matched up poorly with him like Gregory, Larocca(maybe), Herrera etc, but yeah not good enough to be a slightly creepy fixation for boxing fans as some sort of denied uber-prospect 25-30 years after his prime.

Then again some of the pro ayala guys are just outright trolls like Rooster who people always bite with.He's just taking the piss and lax is probably a rapist or extreme sexual deviant in real life.

Fuckin' 'ell :rofl Brutal by my standards :yikes

The bold bit is my major gripe. He's such a letdown, and as a boxing fan I wish he was what's advertised. Peeps make him sound like an 11 stone Avelar, he's more like a less proven Maidana.

[Flea Man]

Also, amazing to think not long after a puncher who actually does live up to the lofty reputation certain nonces give to Ayala, and had some skills to compliment the power, did turn up at junior middle.

So, how many seconds would Ayala last with Julian Jackson?

[JohnThomas1]

Ok, so you don't believe this Duran one (sparring) either?

Senor?

[Senor Pepe']

Senor?

Whether or not that Roberto Duran beat up or knocked-out a teenager in sparring or in a sanctioned bout,,,,,,,,

What does that mean???

No one can put Pipino Cuevas in the ring with Tony Ayala Jr. in the
Summer of 1977 (July or August).

What the hell, nobody had a Kodak Insta-Matic Camera in San Antonio.

[JohnThomas1]

Whether or not that Roberto Duran beat up or knocked-out a teenager in sparring or in a sanctioned bout,,,,,,,,

What does that mean???

No one can put Pipino Cuevas in the ring with Tony Ayala Jr. in the
Summer of 1977 (July or August).

What the hell, nobody had a Kodak Insta-Matic Camera in San Antonio.

Ok, so you've googled and now realise Duran did indeed cold c0ck a teenage amateur. We are one step closer.

[Senor Pepe']

Does anybody have any information on who Tony Ayala Jr. really fought in the
Summber of 1977,,,,,,,,,at the 'Amateur level'

I believe he was competing at (-67 kg) 147 lbs. @ Welterweight

Other than other 14, 15 and 16 year old teenagers from the Southwest.

[Xplosive]

Ayala might have stopped Davey Moore late, but that was more-less a pick em.

Duran would have raped Ayala, no pun intended.

[Xplosive]

Also, amazing to think not long after a puncher who actually does live up to the lofty reputation certain nonces give to Ayala, and had some skills to compliment the power, did turn up at junior middle.

So, how many seconds would Ayala last with Julian Jackson?

3 rounds tops.

NO junior middleweight thats ever lived, thats as hittable as Ayala is beating Jackson.

Having said that...... young Ayala would fare well in the current 154 division. I have little doubt that he would have KO'd Alvarez and Kirkland.

[Senor Pepe']

Jeff Passero,,,,,,,,,,

November 1982 interview, The Star-Ledger

'A one-time Welterweight prospect in 1979/1980, turned sparring partner and opponent.'

Fought Davey Moore in 1981 and sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in New Jersey
in 1982.

"I know people don't want to here this, but Davey Moore hit me harder. He hit me, and my eyes spun around in their sockets.'

'Tony is good, and he may be the better overall fighter, but he never hurt me in
the sparring sessions. If you can take his best punch, he gets frustrated and tries
to bull you around the ring.'

'I wouldn't bet any money on their fight, because Davey is too dangerous early.
If it goes past 5-Rounds, its anybody's fight.'

[Nightcrawler]

11 pages, damn

[JohnThomas1]

I've always said Moore would have beaten Ayala. Great heart and good speed and power. The big thing is he could come back from being hurt and starch his opponent, and he did it numerous times. The man had the fortitude. He also would have been the more proven fighter at the time of meeting. The worst thing that ever happened to him was winning the title so soon, and running into Duran. His entire development as a professional fighter ended up stunted.

[MAG1965]

3 rounds tops.

NO junior middleweight thats ever lived, thats as hittable as Ayala is beating Jackson.

Having said that...... young Ayala would fare well in the current 154 division. I have little doubt that he would have KO'd Alvarez and Kirkland.now he might fare well. The divisions now are not great. In the 1980s even guys like Buster Drayton who were just top 10 were good hard punchers who could fight.

[Xplosive]

I think Ayala vs Vargas would have been an awesome fight.

[laxpdx]

I think Ayala vs Vargas would have been an awesome fight.

Awesome for the 1-4 rounds Vargas lasts.

[Xplosive]

Awesome for the 1-4 rounds Vargas lasts.

Yeah, you're right. Ayala hit sooooo much harder than Tito.:patsch:patsch:patsch

[laxpdx]

Yeah, you're right. Ayala hit sooooo much harder than Tito.:patsch:patsch:patsch

That he sure did. :good:good:good

[Senor Pepe']

If 14 year-old Tony Ayala Jr. sparred with Roberto Duran in the Summer of 1977.

Not sure what it would have accomplished,,,,,,,,

It wouldn't have made the kid anything more or less. If it did happen, what
would 2 rounds of sparring at maybe 2-minutes per round tell anybody.

That this kid is great, and he is going to be a World Champion.

Nobody has that kind of vision.

[Flea Man]

That he sure did. :good:good:good

Based on?!? Why are you such a deluded cunt? I feel sorry for you.

[MadcapMaxie]

Holy shit this threads still going?


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[laxpdx]

Based on?!? Why are you such a deluded cunt? I feel sorry for you.

You have such a talent for projecting your own characteristics onto others. I feel sorry for you, because that seems to be the only talent you have.

Based on?!?

Based on objectivity and logic. Which your posts never have. You know as well as I do that Tony would always KO Duran, because the young bull has every physical advantage conceivable. Most esp. the power factor.

[big man]

Power factor?

What top 10 ranked fighter did Ayala KO (let alone iron chinned,defensively superb ATG's)??

His resume is garbage in actual fact but in keeping with where he was at as a fighter. He was a prospect. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes he scored some brutal stoppages against men who were there to be stopped but so did the likes of Randall Bailey, Acelino Freitas and Sam Peter at the same stage of their respective careers.

But funnily enough their amazing KO percentages dropped the further through the ranks they went as the quality of opponent improved and I'm certain the same would have happened with Ayala. He was simply a one trick,come forward slugger but that style holds absolutely no fears for a Duran or any elite fighter (unless you're a freak like a Marciano who was a lot more substance than fat Tony).

If Duran had've fought Ayala instead of Davy Moore I'd bet the house on Duran breaking him down and tearing him apart just as he did to Moore and similar to he did to Cuevas in a real fight instead of sparring.

Compare how a 37 year old Duran performed against the much bigger Iran Barkley with the 37 year old Tony Ayala's showing against Yori Boy Campas. Duran showed a defensive prowess,heart,chin, skill level and fighting prowess that was and in truth always would've been beyond Tony Ayala's comprehension.

[Senor Pepe']

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.

[PernellSweetPea]

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.This solves it. It was not even Cueves!!!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!! even in sparring Cueves would land his left hook and demolish Ayala!!!!! Duran would also!!!! Other fighters win titles!!!!!!!!! Ayala sparred Antonio Gin!!!!

[laxpdx]

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.

Do you have an exact source(s) for everything you've said about this so far? Any info you could give would be helpful, as I'm trying to google it myself.

[CassiusClayAli]

So this thread should be. "if 14 year old Tony Ayala had sparred with Duran instead of Antonio Gin?"

[CassiusClayAli]

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.Antonio Gin? :rofl:yep

[laxpdx]

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.

Gin had 3 total pro-fights, all in 1974-75, and all at Light WW. Why would he need sparring partners in 1977, to train at WW, where he never fought professionally? Which exact source says Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the summer of 1977?

Or is this the more subtle approach of discrediting Tony? Face it, most here will readily accept this, simply because they hate Tony. It's what they want to believe, truth or not.

[PernellSweetPea]

I've been told it was Mexican Welterweight, Antonio Gin who sparred with Tony Ayala Jr. in San Antonio in August 1977.

Antonio Gin, former Mexican Amateur Star who represented Mexico at the 1972 Olympics.
Competed at (-60 kg), 132 lb. Lightweight Division.

Fought at the Light-Welterweight and Welterweight level as a Professional, {1974 thru 1977}

A style similar to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, but nowhere near the talent level.

Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the Summer of 1977.Where did you find out it was Gin instead of Cueves?

[laxpdx]

:|What a pathetic loser I am.

Admission is the first step to recovery.

[Senor Pepe']

Gin had 3 total pro-fights, all in 1974-75, and all at Light WW. Why would he need sparring partners in 1977, to train at WW, where he never fought professionally? Which exact source says Pipino was nowhere near San Antonio in the summer of 1977?

Or is this the more subtle approach of discrediting Tony? Face it, most here will readily accept this, simply because they hate Tony. It's what they want to believe, truth or not.


LAXPDX,,,

Please don't tell me that you use Box/Rec as your only source....:-(

As you know, they do not have records regarding many of the
FECARBOX, Mexican, Central American, Caribbean, South American,
Orient and Pacific bouts....

[laxpdx]

Glad you safely made it out of the closet, pal. But I'm sorry, I hate gays.

I'm sorry you hate me for being so happy.