Ken Norton v. Rocky Marciano

[SteveO]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)

[mcvey]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)
Marciano ,Norton's weakness was exposed if you could back him up,he had stiff legs and dragged his right foot.Marciano would back him up,into the path of a Suzie Q right hand and it would be "goodnight Nurse " for Kenny.

[he grant]

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

[mcvey]

Yes, your NUTS.:D

[natonic]

Marciano. Norton was a terrific fighter, but I've seen him get starched one too many times to think he could survive Marciano's bombs.

[PowerPuncher]

Norton outboxes Marciano early, but Rocky breaks him down for a late KO12

[JohnThomas1]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)

History has shown us that racism and stupidity never grows old. Marciano took 9 rounds to knock out a 40 year old glass chin Archie Moore and you know why it took him this long when other middleweights knocked out Moore quicker? Because Marciano's power was highly overrated even comparing it with other 180 pounders.

Ken Norton by first round knockout

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

The only people who think you are crazy are the racist dumb dumbs of this boxing forum.

Excepting certain special occasions there's no place for racial comments and accusations in here. We're mostly a whole lot better than that. I'd suggest you take them elsewhere where they will be much more appreciated. Basically accusing anyone who takes Norton in here of being racist would be close to banworthy i'd reckon.

[Hydraulix]

I'd give it to Marciano. He punched really hard, and he would pressure Norton relentless. Norton wouldn't be able to adjust.

[mr. magoo]

Although, I would probably pick the Rock here, I would like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

While Norton certainly fell victom to big punchers, we have to consider styles, and frankly I can't think of any swarmer whom Norton ever faced. He did however spar regularly with Joe Frazier, as they were under the same management, and apparently the reports say that Frazier got the better of him on most occasions. The problem here, is that Frazier knew Ken like no other fighter did, and he was further along in his career than Norton when they were still working together, so I don't know if I'd use this as a guage.

Both Marciano and Norton had ample experience fighting in long range wars that extended anywhere from 10 - 15 rounds. Ken however, did fight during an era where fighters were generally bigger, stronger, and perhaps even faster. Not to mention, the 1970's were afterall, revered by many as the golden era of the division ( for whatever heresay is worth. )

In either case, I think this would be a very tough battle for both men. I don't see an early nor easy verdict here. Norton's youth, style and conditioning, would be an excellent match for Marciano's power, toughness, stamina and swarming stance.

The Rock has to be the favorite, but he'd have a tough test on his hands, and make no mistake about it, an upset is not entirely out of the question...

[Yogi]

Norton outboxes Marciano early, but Rocky breaks him down for a late KO12

I agree but I think Rocky would get in done in about 8-9 rounds.

[Maxmomer]

I think it'd be a really good fight until Norton got knocked out.

[Joe E]

Marciano KO 9.

[Arka]

It seems an easy enough proposition. Norton failed abysmally against the big punchers-Foreman,Shavers and Cooney.But to my mind their power was more of the bludgeoning type,which backed Norton up.Marciano's punches had more torque in them.
BTW is there any film of Norton and Frazier sparring?

[elgoadie]

Norton's awkward style would cause Marciano a bit of discomfort in the early rounds, but the Rock's relentless onslaught would break Norton down in the late stages. Marciano KO 11.

[fists of fury]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)

History has shown us that racism and stupidity never grows old. Marciano took 9 rounds to knock out a 40 year old glass chin Archie Moore and you know why it took him this long when other middleweights knocked out Moore quicker? Because Marciano's power was highly overrated even comparing it with other 180 pounders.

Ken Norton by first round knockout

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

The only people who think you are crazy are the racist dumb dumbs of this boxing forum.

Can someone please ban this account? I'm tired of this bullshit.


In any event, maybe Norton had trouble with big punchers, but I think he'd be pretty competitive with Marciano, especially the Marciano who evolved into a volume puncher.
Norton has the skills to give Rocky trouble, and he has the required size/strength to handle a rough, physical fight.
My concern is if Marciano does start to back him up, I don't think Kenny can adjust enough for him to still be competitive. If he can stand his ground with Marciano, then I say it's a very close fight.
I'd favour Marciano but not by much. Very tough matchup for both men.

[RockyJim]

Marciano by a BRUTAL KO over Kenny Norton!!!

[Loewe]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)

History has shown us that racism and stupidity never grows old. Marciano took 9 rounds to knock out a 40 year old glass chin Archie Moore and you know why it took him this long when other middleweights knocked out Moore quicker? Because Marciano's power was highly overrated even comparing it with other 180 pounders.

Ken Norton by first round knockout

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

The only people who think you are crazy are the racist dumb dumbs of this boxing forum.

The only racist on here are you.

[young griffo]

As history has proven, Kenny did not match up well with murderous bombers (Cooney, Shavers, Foreman).

As history has also proven, Marciano was a murderous puncher.

However, Norton has an "awkward" style, and significant advantages in height and weight, and could throw a decent punch of his own.

Who takes it?

(And apologies if this has been done before.)

History has shown us that racism and stupidity never grows old. Marciano took 9 rounds to knock out a 40 year old glass chin Archie Moore and you know why it took him this long when other middleweights knocked out Moore quicker? Because Marciano's power was highly overrated even comparing it with other 180 pounders.

Ken Norton by first round knockout

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

The only people who think you are crazy are the racist dumb dumbs of this boxing forum.
Words fail me.

I don't know what's worse,the racist generalisations,the lack of boxing insight or the disgraceful denigration of two all-time great fighters.

Whatever this fool deserves immediate banning as he contributes absolutely nothing to this forum and just tries to stir up dissent and petty hatreds.

[Mendoza]

People will think I'm nuts but I like Norton ... way too big for Marciano ...

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles. He would also be the best puncher Marciano ever fought, if we omit the old Joe Louis who had but 4 ko's in his last 10 fights.

Rocky would need to be sharp to win this one. If he shows up like he did vs Cockell, LaStarza II, or Moore, I'd lean slightly toward Norton.

However, if Rocky shows up like his did vs Louis, Layne or Walcott, I think he'd TKO Norton in the mid to late rounds.

At their best, I'd take Rocky.

[he grant]

I think of the Norton that destroyed Quarry and I ses that Norton as way too big and too good at using a jack hammer jack and an 79" reach to bust Marciano up. Rocky would have to catch him early. The longer it went the more damage Rocky would absorb from a much bigger, stronger, harder hitting guy than he ever fought ...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PowerPuncher]

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles. .

:lol: Ok if you say so 5 star boxing knowledge :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles.

You really think they are similar?

[Mendoza]

There is some goof stuff on Norton on you tube. Check the Bobbick fight.

[clark]

I think this fight is wrong for Norton. Marciano by T.K.O. inside of five.

[clark]

If Norton would have fought Quarry two years earlier, I feel the fight would have been the other way around.

[SuzieQ49]

Norton outboxes Marciano early, but Rocky breaks him down for a late KO12

maybe the 1954 rocky marciano but surely the 1951-1952 slugger version of rocky would need only 1-2 rounds to decapitate kenny norton?

[PowerPuncher]

maybe the 1954 rocky marciano but surely the 1951-1952 slugger version of rocky would need only 1-2 rounds to decapitate kenny norton?

I don't think hes as fast or as powerful as Foreman/Shavers and doesnt have the reach advantages, its not a knock on him, I also don't view him as the fastest starter

[SuzieQ49]

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles.


No way you have 5 star boxing knowledge my man. Norton and charles fought nothing alike, but film of a prime ezzard have u seen? norton was a unorthodox shell defense countepuncher while charles was a very orthodox classic stick and move boxer with aggresivness.

The fact you say ken norton is better is laughable, no historian would agree with you here


He would also be the best puncher Marciano ever fought

I disagree, first of all kenny norton was not a puncher, nor did he hardly ever knockout down world class men. in fact i dont think he ever knocked down a world class heavyweight.


Walcott and Louis were much better punchers than ken norton. Louis rates # 1 on ring magazine all time punchers list and despite being 37, the old saying is "power is the last thing to leave a fighter"....I still think louis in 1950 was still the more dangerous puncher than norton. see the savold and valentino fights.


Walcott rated # 66 on ring magazine top 100 punchers of all time list was certainly a harder puncher than ken norton, all historians would agree with me. walcott has shown much more punching power on film than norton has and knocked down/out durable world class fighters while kenny norton never did.

[SuzieQ49]

question to the forum


are we talking about the 1951-1952 slugger version of rocky?

or the 1954-1955 volume punching marciano?

cause i favor the slugger version of rocky to beat up kenny easily, while the volume punching version of rocky struggles.

[SuzieQ49]

However, if Rocky shows up like his did vs Louis, Layne or Walcott, I think he'd TKO Norton in the mid to late rounds.


Im glad u agree with me though that rocky marciano was at his best in 1951-1952.

so why do you always bring up his fights in 1954-55 if that wasnt rocky at his best?

[janitor]

I think of the Norton that destroyed Quarry and I ses that Norton as way too big and too good at using a jack hammer jack and an 79" reach to bust Marciano up.

I would pick a prime Quarry over Norton in a heartbeat.

I would even go as far as to say that it takes a bit of a leap of faith to pick Norton over any elite puncher.

[kickbxn5]

Marciano KO 2 or 3

[SteveO]

Im glad u agree with me though that rocky marciano was at his best in 1951-1952.

so why do you always bring up his fights in 1954-55 if that wasnt rocky at his best?

It's up to you. I didn't have specific criteria in mind, personally.

[Arka]

You're not nuts, you're just under the impression that big=great, like many ESB writers.

When a big guy faces a smaller guy, the smaller guy usually wins. :nut

Marciano would overwhelm Norton in the first round by just hitting non-stop. Ken was not fast enough to stay away.

So the reason there are weight-divisions is to protect the big guys?

[Loewe]

question to the forum


are we talking about the 1951-1952 slugger version of rocky?

or the 1954-1955 volume punching marciano?

cause i favor the slugger version of rocky to beat up kenny easily, while the volume punching version of rocky struggles.

Which version was the better all round in your oppinion?

For the record: Rocky knocks Norton out in the midrounds but until then Ken is game.

[SuzieQ49]

Which version was the better all round in your oppinion?




I would say the 1951-1952. I have never seen rocky look so fast and sharp as in the joe louis fight, its a shame many here dismiss this as a sad affair not worth watching.....the first five rounds were extremley exciting filled with two big punchers exchanging blows, classic big man vs little man. both men hungry for a title shot. both men with huge welts all over there faces. the first 5 rounds before louis got tired, louis really showed up to fight his jab really found its mark.....but he ran into a rocky on his best night.


the 1954-55 rockys workrate vastly improved, but he lost alot of punching power, handspeed, and movement.

[he grant]

I hear your point but it does not speak volumes about Marciano that a 37 year old shell of Joe Louis fought him competitive for six rounds ... I can see a prime Dempsey or Tyson taking that Louis out early ...

[SuzieQ49]

I do question how dempsey would have done vs a 1950s joe louis. I suspect dempsey knocks him out, but then again none of the big men dempsey faced were anywhere near as skilled as louis nor did they have a jab like louis did.......i expect dempsey to get quite a few lumps on his face before he puts away louis. Also if dempsey tries to get cute like he did vs firpo......he might find himself out of the ring courtest of one of louis hooks...this time he wont be saved by a typewriter.

[he grant]

A prime Louis, yes ... the Louis that Marciano fought, that produced one knockdown in his entire comeback, I doubt it ....

[SuzieQ49]

one knockdown? thats not true. Louis knocked out big future # 1 nino valdez in one round with a 3 punch combo, and he knocked out the durable pat valentino out cold through the ropes(the fight can be seen on youtube)..... I have all of louis fights in his comeback. he also knocked omelio agramonte down with one right hand for a 9 count in the 2nd round....agramonte was lucky to survive the round. agramonte after that ran on his bicycle for the next 18 rounds vs louis...the only reason he survived in both fights he was a young flashy fighter....agramonte was rated in the top 10 by the way. andy walker was also knocked down 3 times by joe louis, walker was 6'3 200lb. Louis busted up beshore terribly, beshore's corner saved him from being knocked out for the count the next round. Jimmy Bivins and cesar brion were both DURABLE excellent defensive fighters who fought passive fights against joe louis made to survive. Bivins was still hurt terribly in the 1st and 10th rounds lucky to make it out....Lee Savold was one of the most durable fighters of the era and # 2 rated in the world BBC heavyweight champ. savold had been down for the 10 count just once in the past 10 years, and rocky marciano failed to floor savold. joe louis with one punch put savold out for the 10 count. Louis hurt rocky at the end of the first with a left hook and busted a prime rockys face up, a prime ezzard charles face was also busted up horribly by the few punches louis landed on him.


Jimmy Bivins said after "one thing louis still had left was his punching power. his skills and reflexes were eroded but he could still hit very hard."



A prime louis knocks dempsey out pretty clearly IMO, but the 1950s louis would be an interesting fight the first 6 rounds.....dempsey never faced a big man with skills and jab like louis, even a 37 year old louis

[Marciano Frazier]

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles. He would also be the best puncher Marciano ever fought, if we omit the old Joe Louis who had but 4 ko's in his last 10 fights.
Absolutely not. Norton was bigger, but he wasn't even in Charles' league pound-for-pound. Also, several of Marciano's opponents arguably hit at least as hard as Norton, who never so much as knocked down an elite fighter.

[Marciano Frazier]

one knockdown? thats not true. Louis knocked out big future # 1 nino valdez in one round with a 3 punch combo, and he knocked out the durable pat valentino out cold through the ropes(the fight can be seen on youtube)..... I have all of louis fights in his comeback. he also knocked omelio agramonte down with one right hand for a 9 count in the 2nd round....agramonte was lucky to survive the round. agramonte after that ran on his bicycle for the next 18 rounds vs louis...the only reason he survived in both fights he was a young flashy fighter....agramonte was rated in the top 10 by the way. Louis busted up beshore terribly, beshore's corner saved him from being knocked out for the count the next round. Jimmy Bivins and cesar brion were both DURABLE excellent defensive fighters who fought passive fights against joe louis made to survive. Bivins was still hurt terribly in the 1st and 10th rounds lucky to make it out....Lee Savold was one of the most durable fighters of the era and # 2 rated in the world BBC heavyweight champ. savold had been down for the 10 count just once in the past 10 years, and rocky marciano failed to floor savold. joe louis with one punch put savold out for the 10 count. Louis hurt rocky at the end of the first with a left hook and busted a prime rockys face up, a prime ezzard charles face was also busted up horribly by the few punches louis landed on him.


Jimmy Bivins said after "one thing louis still had left was his punching power. his skills and reflexes were eroded but he could still hit very hard."

While I don't believe that the early '50s Louis would be a terribly serious threat to Dempsey, let me add that Louis also scored three knockdowns in his fight with Andy Walker, which in and of itself makes a mockery of the claim that he produced one knockdown in his entire comeback, along with the others you list.

Unholy punching power like a prime Joe Louis had doesn't just disappear. The early-'50s Louis could still punch. The comeback opponents he fought were, as a group, very hard guys to stop, and he just didn't always have the speed, timing or reflexes left to get the job done against them. For a modern comparison, Samuel Peter has only won two stoppages in his last eight fights, but I don't think anyone here would say that Peter can't punch/has lost his power; rather, he has been facing opponents who, as a group, are very hard to stop, and he lacks the necessary speed, timing and reflexes to consistently find a home for his knockout punches against them, in much the same way as the early '50s Louis.

[SuzieQ49]

O shoot forgot about the walker fight, the only fight not on film

[Ramon Rojo]

Ken Norton by KO

[fists of fury]

one knockdown? thats not true. Louis knocked out big future # 1 nino valdez in one round with a 3 punch combo, and he knocked out the durable pat valentino out cold through the ropes(the fight can be seen on youtube)..... I have all of louis fights in his comeback. he also knocked omelio agramonte down with one right hand for a 9 count in the 2nd round....agramonte was lucky to survive the round. agramonte after that ran on his bicycle for the next 18 rounds vs louis...the only reason he survived in both fights he was a young flashy fighter....agramonte was rated in the top 10 by the way. andy walker was also knocked down 3 times by joe louis, walker was 6'3 200lb. Louis busted up beshore terribly, beshore's corner saved him from being knocked out for the count the next round. Jimmy Bivins and cesar brion were both DURABLE excellent defensive fighters who fought passive fights against joe louis made to survive. Bivins was still hurt terribly in the 1st and 10th rounds lucky to make it out....Lee Savold was one of the most durable fighters of the era and # 2 rated in the world BBC heavyweight champ. savold had been down for the 10 count just once in the past 10 years, and rocky marciano failed to floor savold. joe louis with one punch put savold out for the 10 count. Louis hurt rocky at the end of the first with a left hook and busted a prime rockys face up, a prime ezzard charles face was also busted up horribly by the few punches louis landed on him.


Jimmy Bivins said after "one thing louis still had left was his punching power. his skills and reflexes were eroded but he could still hit very hard."




Nice post Suze. Louis wasn't half bad on his comeback and still definitely a top 5 heavyweight when he fought Marciano.

[timmers612]

Foreman rules is just a bad guy. I've seen him slander some long timers here hoping to get under the skin, and he has. What can be done about him, its a crying shame to have him here.

[abraq]

If Norton comes into the fight "psyched out" by Marciano's reputation as a puncher, he loses by early kayo.

If not, he gets beaten and stopped or kayoed later in the fight.

[Muchmoore]

You're not nuts, you're just under the impression that big=great, like many ESB writers.

When a big guy faces a smaller guy, the smaller guy usually wins.

Marciano would overwhelm Norton in the first round by just hitting non-stop. Ken was not fast enough to stay away.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ramon Rojo]

When a big guy faces a smaller guy, the smaller guy usually wins.



:patsch

That's one of the stupidest things ever written here.

[Minotauro]

Norton was a better and bigger version of Charles. He would also be the best puncher Marciano ever fought, if we omit the old Joe Louis who had but 4 ko's in his last 10 fights.

Rocky would need to be sharp to win this one. If he shows up like he did vs Cockell, LaStarza II, or Moore, I'd lean slightly toward Norton.

However, if Rocky shows up like his did vs Louis, Layne or Walcott, I think he'd TKO Norton in the mid to late rounds.

At their best, I'd take Rocky.

I don't see how Charles and Nortn were that similar and Norton certainly was not better he was bigger but did nothing better and I feel Walcott is a bigger hitter then Norton although not by a huge margin. What do feel makes Norton better then one of the p4p greatest ever in Charles?

[ChrisPontius]

:patsch

That's one of the stupidest things ever written here.
Of course not. Didn't you know weightclasses were invented to protect the bigger guys from the small ones? :lol:





That said, Marciano TKO3 Norton.

[he grant]

First of all I was referring to his professional fights, not exhibitions. Second of all , Savold was a shot trial horse. Any attempt to build him up is a stretch. If I missed a few knockdowns , fine. However, are you making a case that the Louis that fought Marciano was still anywhere near the puncher and fighter he was in the late 1930's ? You are the first person I have ever read or heard from that is building a case for Louis being anything close to his prime in his post Charles career. If you are then you must have never thought he was a puncher since Rocky himself said after the fight he was surprised more than anything by the fact that Louis had zero power on his punches. Rocky's words.

[Bokaj]

Marciano takes this one. Norton was at his best pressing guys who wasn't huge punchers. I don't think he would be very succesfull moving and keeping Marciano at bay with his excellent jab since he never looked really comfortable backing up. I think most of the fight would take place on the inside, and Rocky's short, powerful arms and chin would give him the edge here. It's no walk in the park, though.

Funny thing with Norton is that even though he's not known as a huge puncher or for his durability, he managed to shake Ali in a way that hardly no one except Frazier had done before, and he didn't seem overly bothered by the punching prowess that took out very durable guys like Lyle, Foreman, Quarry, Bonavena and Wepner.

[Bummy Davis]

This fight would be a perfect fight for Marciano and proberly the fight he would need to silence the critics. Norton would lose pretty much the way he was stopped by Foreman,Shavers,Garcia,Cooney...Marciano would be impressive and I could see it ending on the ropes simular to the way Marciano KO'd Louis (only earlier) like the Matthews ko or it could be from a short chopping right like the one that felled Layne. I can not seeing Norton standing up to Marciano's power...NO HOW

[JohnThomas1]

This fight would be a perfect fight for Marciano and proberly the fight he would need to silence the critics.

Actually i don't think stopping a Norton who lost to quite a few big punchers would silence them. I think it would be a no win situation for the Rock.

[Bummy Davis]

Actually i don't think stopping a Norton who lost to quite a few big punchers would silence them. I think it would be a no win situation for the Rock.

You have a point ....there are a small few on this board that would not give him credit if he beat KING KONG and Godzilla.....wonder if its Rocks complextion I dont mean black posters..there are white posters that think the white guy cant win...thats because someone was taking there lunch money and they were giving it up....a real tough guy knows there are tough guys in every color

[JohnThomas1]

You have a point ....there are a small few on this board that would not give him credit if he beat KING KONG and Godzilla.....wonder if its Rocks complextion I dont mean black posters..there are white posters that think the white guy cant win...thats because someone was taking there lunch money and they were giving it up....a real tough guy knows there are tough guys in every color

I'm not coming into THIS one

:D

[sthomas]

Marciano by early to mid round KO. Norton was always there to be hit, and Marciano never had a problem connecting. Norton would also have a tough time with Marciano's crazy defence

[he grant]

Wow, we have some real deep thinkers here !!! I just thought it was a bunch of bodybuilders .... :patsch

I can understanding some people picking Rocky here but I simply disagree. The best Norton was too big, strong, fast, hard hitting, well conditioned for the much smaller Marciano. I see Norton pumping a terrific jab , fast and hard in Rockys face to hold him off and chop him up. Just my opinion.

[Grinder]

The Rock takes this one. No way in hell is Norton KOing Marciano. Norton will be beaten in a war of attrition.

[Ramon Rojo]

Wow, we have some real deep thinkers here !!! I just thought it was a bunch of bodybuilders .... :patsch

I can understanding some people picking Rocky here but I simply disagree. The best Norton was too big, strong, fast, hard hitting, well conditioned for the much smaller Marciano. I see Norton pumping a terrific jab , fast and hard in Rockys face to hold him off and chop him up. Just my opinion.

:good

Rocky Marciano is the most overrated fighter in history.

[he grant]

Rocky is the most overrated heavyweight champion and was also a great fighter. Too many simply cannot separate the two.

[Marciano Frazier]

First of all I was referring to his professional fights, not exhibitions. Second of all , Savold was a shot trial horse. Any attempt to build him up is a stretch.
No, not at all. Savold had just beaten top five-ranked British champ Bruce Woodcock for the BBBC version of the championship in his last fight, and was ranked in the top five himself as a result. He had been ranked on and off for a solid decade, and beaten guys like Lou Nova, Lee Oma and Joe Baksi. Far from a world-beater, yes, and with an ugly record, but a legitimate contender nevertheless- and he had only been stopped once in the last 10 years, that coming against Violent Ray. This is a fairly impressive knockout.

If I missed a few knockdowns , fine. However, are you making a case that the Louis that fought Marciano was still anywhere near the puncher and fighter he was in the late 1930's ? You are the first person I have ever read or heard from that is building a case for Louis being anything close to his prime in his post Charles career.
SuzieQ never claimed that Louis was close to his best post-Charles- that is a mischaracterization of the position, and a weak strawman. The greatest fighter and puncher of all time (or close to it) does not need to be close to his best in order to still be a very good fighter and puncher.

If you are then you must have never thought he was a puncher since Rocky himself said after the fight he was surprised more than anything by the fact that Louis had zero power on his punches. Rocky's words.
Actually, he said that he felt zero power from Louis' right hand, which is not surprising, since Louis had chronically injured and broken the right hand during his comeback and was probably not committing to the shot. Marciano described Louis' left hand as having been like a sledgehammer in the face.

[MRBILL]

Rocky Marciano was great and owned KO power in his fists, but R.M. never fought a dude the size of Ken Norton...... Norton took apart Jerry Quarry pretty easy in 1975, and Quarry was actually a tad bigger than Marciano.... GO FIGURE!!

MR.BILL:huh

[Ramon Rojo]

Rocky is the most overrated heavyweight champion and was also a great fighter. Too many simply cannot separate the two.
Yes, i take back what i said. He was a great fighter no doubt even though i'm not impressed with his style.

But like you said he's a tad overrated by some people.

[janitor]

Rocky is the most overrated heavyweight champion and was also a great fighter. Too many simply cannot separate the two.

I dont think he is.

I think that a significant element underrate him on this site for the same reason that the press at the time did.

Answer = awkward unorthodox style.

[janitor]

Wow, we have some real deep thinkers here !!! I just thought it was a bunch of bodybuilders .... :patsch

I can understanding some people picking Rocky here but I simply disagree. The best Norton was too big, strong, fast, hard hitting, well conditioned for the much smaller Marciano. I see Norton pumping a terrific jab , fast and hard in Rockys face to hold him off and chop him up. Just my opinion.

You are a verry fine poster but Marciano is one fighter that I think you have got wrong.

[mr. magoo]

Rocky Marciano was great and owned KO power in his fists, but R.M. never fought a dude the size of Ken Norton...... Norton took apart Jerry Quarry pretty easy in 1975, and Quarry was actually a tad bigger than Marciano.... GO FIGURE!!

MR.BILL:huh

Quarry was not much bigger than Marciano and the two had virtually nothing in common. Quarry was a boxer who's best attribute was his counter punching ability, while Marciano was a swarmer who liked to get up close and slug on the inside. Norton had the tendency to eat up fighters like Quarry, while often falling to hard punchers.

Now, I agree with most that Norton's questionable chin would be a problem against a great puncher like the Rock. My hesitation however, lies with the fact that we never actually saw how Norton faired when placed against a swarmer, and one who was significantly smaller in size at that.. He was Ko'd mainly by large, hard hitting fighters who were as big or bigger than he was, fought differently than Marciano did, and on most occasions, when Norton was past his best, or before it.

Norton was Ko'd or stopped on exactly 4 occasions in his career. The first came against a 6'4" prospect, when Ken had some 16 fights under his belt. He would later avenge this loss with a KO, once his career got underway. His losses to Shavers and Cooney came very late when he was between 37-38 years of age. His only prime KO loss was against a peak George Foreman, who in my book would have mopped the floor with Marciano anyway, so the comparison is moot..

The only tool that we really have to work with, was the fact that people in the Frazier-Norton camp, claimed that when these two sparred, Frazier would ordinarily get the better of the two. Given that Frazier and Marciano had similarities in their styles, we might have something to go by, but this still leaves a few problems. First of all, these were sparring sessions between two fighters who knew each other very well, and not actual fights between two men who were unfamiliar with each other. Secondly, there are some who will point out that Frazier was quite a bit faster, a tad bigger, and maybe even an overall better fighter than Marciano was. Third, having the experience of having sparred for years with Joe, would this give Ken an advantage when dealing with swarmers over Marciano, who had never really fought a guy like Norton???

I give the edge to Marciano based on legacy, but I'm not about to get carried away with the whole " Norton had no chin " thing, as virtually none of the men who KO'd Norton had anything in common with Marciano, and only one of them stopped Ken in his true prime...

[teeto]

Marciano for me

[ChrisPontius]

I give the edge to Marciano based on legacy, but I'm not about to get carried away with the whole " Norton had no chin " thing, as virtually none of the men who KO'd Norton had anything in common with Marciano, and only one of them stopped Ken in his true prime...

Agreed, but the track records shows that

A) Marciano is a great hitter, with one of the highest stoppage percentages ever

B) Norton basically folded against everyone who could punch that he faced. Some of them were when he was past his best, but he didn't prove he could beat one during his prime. And most champions, when they lose past their best, often still make a fight out of it rather than being stopped in 30 something seconds...

[mr. magoo]

Agreed, but the track records shows that

A) Marciano is a great hitter, with one of the highest stoppage percentages ever

B) Norton basically folded against everyone who could punch that he faced. Some of them were when he was past his best, but he didn't prove he could beat one during his prime. And most champions, when they lose past their best, often still make a fight out of it rather than being stopped in 30 something seconds...

Yes, but in my whole post I clearly made some disitinct and in depth reasons why Rocky had nothing in common with Cooney, Shavers or Foreman. Two of those men rival each other as the #1 hardest puncher of all time by the way... Again, I agree that the Rock should be favored, but this nonsense of people constantly claiming that any fighter who could crack has an automatic "W" over Norton, needs to stop..

[Mendoza]

Absolutely not. Norton was bigger, but he wasn't even in Charles' league pound-for-pound. Also, several of Marciano's opponents arguably hit at least as hard as Norton, who never so much as knocked down an elite fighter.

Norton is a physical wonder on film, who beat some guy named Ali by out boxing him...twice. Norton almost beat prime Holmes too. Want more? Ok, he out boxed a prime Jimmy Young. Can you name two better heavyweight boxers than Ali or Holmes? I’m not sure if I could, so clearly Norton had plenty of skills.

I'm not much of a pound for pound guy at heavyweight. And for some reasons, things that matter at heavyweight such as the ability to take a punch and size are not included in general pound for pound discussions.

I think Norton was a better heavy than Charles was, and much better than LaSataza who might have beaten Marciano in the first fight, and was certainly up on the cards until running out of gas, which co-insides with Marciano landing hard foul punches on the break and low.

Marciano vs Norton might hinge on how Norton views Marciano. While Marcaino was hard as nails, he might not be able to intimidate Norton in the early to mid rounds, and that would be key.

[OLD FOGEY]

The guys who gave Marciano problems had much better lateral movement and backward movement than Norton. Norton did not move well except perhaps in a straight line forward. Neither Ali, Holmes, nor Young had the power to move him back. Norton did not do well with the punchers who could move him back. I don't think the forward plodding Norton is going to be able to keep distance with Marciano and in close Marciano's shorter arms would probably prove an advantage. Norton is bigger, but I take Marciano. I think his style is all wrong for Norton.

By the way, the 6' 4" prospect, Jose Luis Garcia, who stopped Norton only weighed 188 lbs for the fight. He was about the same weight as Marciano and certainly not at the same level as a puncher.

[JohnThomas1]

Ok, he out boxed a prime Jimmy Young.

Have you seen this fight?

[Marciano Frazier]

Norton is a physical wonder on film, who beat some guy named Ali by out boxing him...twice.
1. He didn't really "outbox" Ali, so much as he pressured him and neutralized his gameplan; did Frazier also "outbox" Ali? Did Marciano "outbox" Charles?
2. Ali was an utter shell for the third Norton fight, and fighting with a broken jaw in the first- albeit one that Norton broke, which is a credit to him, but a bit flukish nevertheless.
3. The third Ali-Norton fight was very close, and could be scored either way depending upon one's criteria; for example, whether one prefers Ali's outside work and more frequent head shots, or Norton's body work up close. Ali was given the official decision, and having reviewed the film, I believe a fair case could be made for either man.

Norton almost beat prime Holmes too. Want more? Ok, he out boxed a prime Jimmy Young.
Norton did almost beat Holmes. The Young fight was a heavily-disputed split decision. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at, here. Ali, Holmes and Young are virtual stylistic polar opposites of Marciano. Compared with Ali, Holmes and Young, guys like Foreman and Shavers look like the virtual spitting image of a Marciano, which is still not to say they're very close matches. Aside from providing general evidence that one is a good fighter, being competitive with Ali, Holmes and Young does not greatly bolster a case for beating Marciano.

If you're saying all this to enforce your previously-stated claim that Norton was "BETTER and bigger" than Charles, then you're trying to beat down a rhinoceros with a fly swatter. Norton managed to pull out one decision over Ali. That's fine. But Charles resoundingly defeated Charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Joey Maxim, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and about everyone in between. Norton's win over Ali is possibly the best single win between the two men, but you'd have to go through 15 or more of Charles' wins before you came to Norton's #2. Charles was one of the most skilled and accomplished fighters in the history of the sport; about half the members of this forum rank him in the top five, according to the last poll held on the topic. Norton would not even make the top 100. You could make a case that Norton was better at heavyweight BECAUSE he was bigger, but this would make your sentence redundant.

And for some reasons, things that matter at heavyweight such as the ability to take a punch and size are not included in general pound for pound discussions.


I think Norton was a better heavy than Charles was,
Let me first point out that you're well in the minority here- Charles is found in nearly any heavyweight top 20, while Norton is quite seldom held there. Now, I will explain why this consensus is valid:
Charles showed the ability to cope with and defeat high-level opponents of virtually any style. He beat monstrous punchers, slick boxers, boxer-punchers, pressure fighters, the works. He dominated the heavyweight division for four years, was world champion and remained a top three heavyweight for three years after losing his title. Norton, on the other hand, showed the ability to make very close fights with elite fighters of a certain style (slick boxers), but never beat an elite fighter of any other style, showed a serious weakness in handling at least one certain style (aggressive fighters/punchers), and has a very shallow resume, largely due to the fact that he wasn't able to consistently maintain himself at the elite level.

and much better than LaSataza who might have beaten Marciano in the first fight, and was certainly up on the cards until running out of gas, which co-insides with Marciano landing hard foul punches on the break and low.
1. Marciano was green for the first fight, and still nearly had LaStarza- who I believe was considerably more durable than Norton- out.
2. LaStarza was a slick, defensive, retreating boxer. Norton was an aggressive guy with a defense that was hard for slick boxers to penetrate, but had a fairly weak chin and seemed inept/intimidated in attempting to defend himself against offensive power punchers, something like a Floyd Patterson.

[MRBILL]

I got balls the size of Church Bells..... I'd give Ken Norton a great chance of hammering away at Rocky Marciano... Despite Norton's chinny chin, Ken Norton was also a rock hard dude who fought between 200 to 220 pounds between his best years of 1973 thru 1978... This crap that Norton was old and aging at 33 against a 29 year old Larry Holmes is shear NONSENSE! Ken Norton was PUMPED / RIPPED for Larry Holmes in '78.... I just CANNOT see Rocky Marciano at 185 to 193 pounds being able to bully a physical guy like Ken Norton around.... And, let us not forget, Ken Norton owned good power himself....:tong

MR.BILL

[janitor]

Norton is a physical wonder on film, who beat some guy named Ali by out boxing him...twice. Norton almost beat prime Holmes too. Want more?


Yes I want more.

I want to see Norton beat a genuinely world class puncher before I make him more than a live underdog against Marciano.

[Mendoza]

Marciano Frazier 1. He didn't really "outbox" Ali, so much as he pressured him and neutralized his gameplan; did Frazier also "outbox" Ali? Did Marciano "outbox" Charles?

I think Norton out boxed and out punched Ali.


2. Ali was an utter shell for the third Norton fight, and fighting with a broken jaw in the first- albeit one that Norton broke, which is a credit to him, but a bit flukish nevertheless.

Maybe so, the the decison was horrible. Norton won it.


3. The third Ali-Norton fight was very close, and could be scored either way depending upon one's criteria; for example, whether one prefers Ali's outside work and more frequent head shots, or Norton's body work up close. Ali was given the official decision, and having reviewed the film, I believe a fair case could be made for either man.



Huh? Did you mean the 2nd Ali vs Norton fight was very close. Norton clearly won the 3rd fight.


Norton did almost beat Holmes. The Young fight was a heavily-disputed split decision. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at, here. Ali, Holmes and Young are virtual stylistic polar opposites of Marciano. Compared with Ali, Holmes and Young, guys like Foreman and Shavers look like the virtual spitting image of a Marciano, which is still not to say they're very close matches. Aside from providing general evidence that one is a good fighter, being competitive with Ali, Holmes and Young does not greatly bolster a case for beating Marciano.

What I was trying to get at was Norton was a very good heavyweight boxer, capable of beating Ali and Young on points, and almost beating Holmes. IMO, Norton had better stuff as a heavyweight boxer than Charles did, partly based on a big size, reach and power differnce.


If you're saying all this to enforce your previously-stated claim that Norton was "BETTER and bigger" than Charles, then you're trying to beat down a rhinoceros with a fly swatter. Norton managed to pull out one decision over Ali. That's fine. But Charles resoundingly defeated Charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Joey Maxim, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and about everyone in between. Norton's win over Ali is possibly the best single win between the two men, but you'd have to go through 15 or more of Charles' wins before you came to Norton's #2. Charles was one of the most skilled and accomplished fighters in the history of the sport; about half the members of this forum rank him in the top five, according to the last poll held on the topic. Norton would not even make the top 100. You could make a case that Norton was better at heavyweight BECAUSE he was bigger, but this would make your sentence redundant.

I think you're selling Norton short. He has wins over Quarry, Young, Garcia, Krikman, Bobick, and others, all of whom as a group were better heavies than the guys Charels beat at heavy.


Let me first point out that you're well in the minority here- Charles is found in nearly any heavyweight top 20, while Norton is quite seldom held there.

Now, I will explain why this consensus is valid:
Charles showed the ability to cope with and defeat high-level opponents of virtually any style. He beat monstrous punchers, slick boxers, boxer-punchers, pressure fighters, the works. He dominated the heavyweight division for four years, was world champion and remained a top three heavyweight for three years after losing his title. Norton, on the other hand, showed the ability to make very close fights with elite fighters of a certain style (slick boxers), but never beat an elite fighter of any other style, showed a serious weakness in handling at least one certain style (aggressive fighters/punchers), and has a very shallow resume, largely due to the fact that he wasn't able to consistently maintain himself at the elite level.

You can not compare the talent level in the 70's, guys like Foreman, Ali, Holmes et all to the likes Charles meet in the 40's and 50's IMO, Foreman bounces Charles out of there, and Chalres doesn't beat Ali.

[janitor]

I just CANNOT see Rocky Marciano at 185 to 193 pounds being able to bully a physical guy like Ken Norton around....

I can.

Archie Moore sid that Marciano was the strongest fighter he ever shared a ring with.

This is a guy who fought Nino Valdez, Bob Baker and Clarence Henry, all big heavyweights.

I will admit that it is hard to say who would shove who harder.

[janitor]

I think you're selling Norton short. He has wins over Quarry, Young, Garcia, Krikman, Bobick, and others, all of whom as a group were better heavies than the guys Charels beat at heavy.


Those guys arnt in the same league as the guys Charles beat at heavy.

The only one who even belongs with Charlses best oponents is Quarry who was a shell.

[Stonehands89]

Yes, i take back what i said. He was a great fighter no doubt even though i'm not impressed with his style.

But like you said he's a tad overrated by some people.
You don't understand Italians. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you 1/2 Italian? Sinatra and Marciano are household gods in every Italian household on the east coast of the U.S. and in satellite sections all over the U.S. That's just the way it is. And any guest who disagrees better duck and run for cover because everyone at the dinner table not only yells, but when provoked they'll hit and throws things too.

...
My culture hat is off.
...
Marciano's style is an acquired taste. In fact, he was a masterpiece in stone -only the sculptor wasn't Michaelangelo, it was Charley Goldman. And you got to squint to appreciate the handiwork. Angelo Dundee says that Goldman did the most "magnificent structural job" on Marciano than any trainer on any fighter -ever. Goldman's words when he was bringing Dundee to see his prospect: "--can't fight, stoop-shoulders, bald-headed, but oh can he punch."

Goldman was adamant about not giving a fighter something that he's not comfortable with or that he doesn't do naturally. Marciano was short. He made Marciano shorter. Marciano had his own balance, Goldman left it alone because he hit hard as hell naturally. Marciano was very strong and trained like a freak. He would have Marciano work the heavy bag from a full squat and then wing shots on the sides as he came up until the crescendo wallop at the end. Marciano learned to punch like hell coming up out of that crunch. That's serious leverage and in real terms it meant that Rocky didn't just hit hard 'for a man his size' -it meant that Rocky hit hard. Period!

You may not like Marciano's style, but that's probably because you are either biased or are not looking with a trained eye. He wasn't pretty, but that style had subtlety that you are missing. It was perfectly designed based on serious -though unexpected- raw materials. Rocky's foundation was thick. His legs were those of a power-lifter, his torso was a bit long and his arms were short. What looks to you like physical disadvantages was actually a set of streamline assets designed to maximize power thrusts in his shots. Goldman's gift was to make this so. Goldman took a natural right hand and matched it with a left -so Rocky had two "equalizers". He also shortened the shots. Marciano was built for and given a style for throwing hard shots all night. Someone said that watching him punch was like watching a contruction worker hurl cement slaps. It's true.

That conditioning of his is beyond comparison. He trained for over 5 months at least once -I think for Ezzard II, and was absolutely devoted. This gives him a real edge over what you see as superior talent. When you're exhausted and looking for the bell, believe me, your talent becomes less and less of a factor. Throw in that part of boxing that even many on ESB dismiss -that psychological edge. Floyd Patterson once observed that most fighters ask themselves "how far can I go? What is my limit? For Marciano, there was no limit."

I don't know if you have ever been in the ring, but I'll tell you from experience that these kinds of guys -the guys with preternatural strength, low foundations, supreme conditioning, never-say-die attitude, power, complete self-belief, and relentless are nightmares in long fights. They're nightmares I tell you. (Read: "I've been traumatized I tell you!"). Think about Cotto when he fought Margarito. Cotto will never beat Margarito and may now be on the decline after that one fight. These guys have a specialty -they take you to places where your humanity just doesn't want to go -the places where your lungs are screaming and your legs turn to lead, where your arms droop and you're praying for the bell. They... just... won't .....stop. It's like fighting Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees -you got to shoot them to get them off of you.

Don't feel too bad. Ray Arcel saw Marciano in sparring before he fought Ted Lowry and thought he was a "bum". He repented soon enough.

Repent, Rojo. Repent!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Where's my gottamn culture hat?! Ah, there it is. Worship the image! Affirm your Italian heritage and BOW when you hear his name!

....(My culture hat is off)...

Or, simply reconsider your opinions.

[Dempsey1238]

stop this worship of false gods.

[Stonehands89]

Rocky is the most overrated heavyweight champion and was also a great fighter. Too many simply cannot separate the two.
I'd like to hear you separate the two. If Rocky was great, how then is he overrated? Please -no hyperbole.

[Stonehands89]

Incidentally, for those who care enough to know: There will be a 26 foot statue of Rocky Marciano going up soon at Brockton near City Hall. They did a poll of the citizens there and most would want it at Brockton High School outside of their football stadium ("Marciano Stadium") where it would serve as an inspiration to young athletes and students alike. The high school teams are called "the boxers".

The WBC almost gave it to Boston -which would have been a shame, but thankfully reconsidered when there was a hue and cry. Boston's Mayor Menino has been already trying to call Boston (on behalf of the guys who run around with leather in their armpits and the other guys who swing wooden bats) what Brockton has been called for decades: "the City of Champions" (Marciano. Hagler. 'Nuff said). That is nothing but a jerk move. Brockton, only a dozen or so miles outside of Boston, needs these uplifts and is far more worthy of both tributes.

[dpw417]

You don't understand Italians. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you 1/2 Italian? Sinatra and Marciano are household gods in every Italian household on the east coast of the U.S. and in satellite sections all over the U.S. That's just the way it is. And any guest who disagrees better duck and run for cover because everyone at the dinner table not only yells, but when provoked they'll hit and throws things too.

...
My culture hat is off.
...
Marciano's style is an acquired taste. In fact, he was a masterpiece in stone -only the sculptor wasn't Michaelangelo, it was Charley Goldman. And you got to squint to appreciate the handiwork. Angelo Dundee says that Goldman did the most "magnificent structural job" on Marciano than any trainer on any fighter -ever. Goldman's words when he was bringing Dundee to see his prospect: "--can't fight, stoop-shoulders, bald-headed, but oh can he punch."

Goldman was adamant about not giving a fighter something that he's not comfortable with or that he doesn't do naturally. Marciano was short. He made Marciano shorter. Marciano had his own balance, Goldman left it alone because he hit hard as hell naturally. Marciano was very strong and trained like a freak. He would have Marciano work the heavy bag from a full squat and then wing shots on the sides as he came up until the crescendo wallop at the end. Marciano learned to punch like hell coming up out of that crunch. That's serious leverage and in real terms it meant that Rocky didn't just hit hard 'for a man his size' -it meant that Rocky hit hard. Period!

You may not like Marciano's style, but that's probably because you are either biased or are not looking with a trained eye. He wasn't pretty, but that style had subtlety that you are missing. It was perfectly designed based on serious -though unexpected- raw materials. Rocky's foundation was thick. His legs were those of a power-lifter, his torso was a bit long and his arms were short. What looks to you like physical disadvantages was actually a set of streamline assets designed to maximize power thrusts in his shots. Goldman's gift was to make this so. Goldman took a natural right hand and matched it with a left -so Rocky had two "equalizers". He also shortened the shots. Marciano was built for and given a style for throwing hard shots all night. Someone said that watching him punch was like watching a contruction worker hurl cement slaps. It's true.

That conditioning of his is beyond comparison. He trained for over 5 months at least once -I think for Ezzard II, and was absolutely devoted. This gives him a real edge over what you see as superior talent. When you're exhausted and looking for the bell, believe me, your talent becomes less and less of a factor. Throw in that part of boxing that even many on ESB dismiss -that psychological edge. Floyd Patterson once observed that most fighters ask themselves "how far can I go? What is my limit? For Marciano, there was no limit."

I don't know if you have ever been in the ring, but I'll tell you from experience that these kinds of guys -the guys with preternatural strength, low foundations, supreme conditioning, never-say-die attitude, power, complete self-belief, and relentless are nightmares in long fights. They're nightmares I tell you. (Read: "I've been traumatized I tell you!"). Think about Cotto when he fought Margarito. Cotto will never beat Margarito and may now be on the decline after that one fight. These guys have a specialty -they take you to places where your humanity just doesn't want to go -the places where your lungs are screaming and your legs turn to lead, where your arms droop and you're praying for the bell. They... just... won't .....stop. It's like fighting Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees -you got to shoot them to get them off of you.

Don't feel too bad. Ray Arcel saw Marciano in sparring before he fought Ted Lowry and thought he was a "bum". He repented soon enough.

Repent, Rojo. Repent!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Where's my gottamn culture hat?! Ah, there it is. Worship the image! Affirm your Italian heritage and BOW when you hear his name!

....(My culture hat is off)...

Or, simply reconsider your opinions.
Take a bow, man....Great post.:good

[mr. magoo]

You don't understand Italians. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you 1/2 Italian? Sinatra and Marciano are household gods in every Italian household on the east coast of the U.S. and in satellite sections all over the U.S. That's just the way it is. And any guest who disagrees better duck and run for cover because everyone at the dinner table not only yells, but when provoked they'll hit and throws things too.

...
My culture hat is off.
...
Marciano's style is an acquired taste. In fact, he was a masterpiece in stone -only the sculptor wasn't Michaelangelo, it was Charley Goldman. And you got to squint to appreciate the handiwork. Angelo Dundee says that Goldman did the most "magnificent structural job" on Marciano than any trainer on any fighter -ever. Goldman's words when he was bringing Dundee to see his prospect: "--can't fight, stoop-shoulders, bald-headed, but oh can he punch."

Goldman was adamant about not giving a fighter something that he's not comfortable with or that he doesn't do naturally. Marciano was short. He made Marciano shorter. Marciano had his own balance, Goldman left it alone because he hit hard as hell naturally. Marciano was very strong and trained like a freak. He would have Marciano work the heavy bag from a full squat and then wing shots on the sides as he came up until the crescendo wallop at the end. Marciano learned to punch like hell coming up out of that crunch. That's serious leverage and in real terms it meant that Rocky didn't just hit hard 'for a man his size' -it meant that Rocky hit hard. Period!

You may not like Marciano's style, but that's probably because you are either biased or are not looking with a trained eye. He wasn't pretty, but that style had subtlety that you are missing. It was perfectly designed based on serious -though unexpected- raw materials. Rocky's foundation was thick. His legs were those of a power-lifter, his torso was a bit long and his arms were short. What looks to you like physical disadvantages was actually a set of streamline assets designed to maximize power thrusts in his shots. Goldman's gift was to make this so. Goldman took a natural right hand and matched it with a left -so Rocky had two "equalizers". He also shortened the shots. Marciano was built for and given a style for throwing hard shots all night. Someone said that watching him punch was like watching a contruction worker hurl cement slaps. It's true.

That conditioning of his is beyond comparison. He trained for over 5 months at least once -I think for Ezzard II, and was absolutely devoted. This gives him a real edge over what you see as superior talent. When you're exhausted and looking for the bell, believe me, your talent becomes less and less of a factor. Throw in that part of boxing that even many on ESB dismiss -that psychological edge. Floyd Patterson once observed that most fighters ask themselves "how far can I go? What is my limit? For Marciano, there was no limit."

I don't know if you have ever been in the ring, but I'll tell you from experience that these kinds of guys -the guys with preternatural strength, low foundations, supreme conditioning, never-say-die attitude, power, complete self-belief, and relentless are nightmares in long fights. They're nightmares I tell you. (Read: "I've been traumatized I tell you!"). Think about Cotto when he fought Margarito. Cotto will never beat Margarito and may now be on the decline after that one fight. These guys have a specialty -they take you to places where your humanity just doesn't want to go -the places where your lungs are screaming and your legs turn to lead, where your arms droop and you're praying for the bell. They... just... won't .....stop. It's like fighting Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees -you got to shoot them to get them off of you.

Don't feel too bad. Ray Arcel saw Marciano in sparring before he fought Ted Lowry and thought he was a "bum". He repented soon enough.

Repent, Rojo. Repent!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Where's my gottamn culture hat?! Ah, there it is. Worship the image! Affirm your Italian heritage and BOW when you hear his name!

....(My culture hat is off)...

Or, simply reconsider your opinions.

A very nice, touching and informative post..

A tad over the top at times though...

Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers? Jeeeeezzzzz........

[Stonehands89]

A very nice, touching and informative post..

A tad over the top at times though...

Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers? Jeeeeezzzzz........
Shit man, I'm traumatized. There was this guy in the Boston YMCA on Huntington Avenue named Barry who took me to hell. We went round and round after hours when these outlaw trainers would come in and all of the restraints normally honored in sparring went out the window -no limit on rounds, no weight classes. New guys would be fed to lions.

He brought me to hell. I was urinating blood for a week and my ribs felt like cardboard tubing. I watched him for a week after that and realized something.... Barry couldn't see shit past the length of his arm. He was the real Mr. Magoo... badly near-sighted. So I started stepping back as he rushed (into the black beyond) and launching straight shots from beyond his vision and as he came in, it was too late to avoid them. His head sounded like a bell for about three rounds -ding! ding! DONG! Problem solved. But I still remember that first beating...

[mr. magoo]

Shit man, I'm traumatized. There was this guy in the Boston YMCA on Huntington Avenue named Barry who took me to hell. We went round and round after hours when these outlaw trainers would come in and all of the restraints normally honored in sparring went out the window -no limit on rounds, no weight classes. New guys would be fed to lions.

He brought me to hell. I was urinating blood for a week and my ribs felt like cardboard tubing. I watched him for a week after that and realized something.... Barry couldn't see shit past the length of his arm. He was the real Mr. Magoo... badly near-sighted. So I started stepping back as he rushed (into the black beyond) and launching straight shots from beyond his vision and as he came in, it was too late to avoid them. His head sounded like a bell for about three rounds -ding! ding! DONG! Problem solved. But I still remember that first beating...

Christ, that doesn't sound like a nice way to spend a Friday night.. LOL...Shit.......

I applaud you for your guts to get back in the ring with a guy who made you piss red for a week though.

My sister was a teacher in Revere Mass. for two years. She said that it was kind of a rough, blue collar Italian hood. Ever been to those parts?

[SuzieQ49]

Never been to revere. I was in the north end the other night, "italian city"..best italian food you will ever eat in united states. 100% gauranteed. I used to go to brockton everyday for boxing training. I will have to checkout the new statue before I leave.

[Stonehands89]

Christ, that doesn't sound like a nice way to spend a Friday night.. LOL...Shit.......

I applaud you for your guts to get back in the ring with a guy who made you piss red for a week though.

My sister was a teacher in Revere Mass. for two years. She said that it was kind of a rough, blue collar Italian hood. Ever been to those parts?
Don't applaud too much, I was in the ring with a man legally blind. And was dumb enough to fight a blind man's fight the first time...!

Yes, I have friends in Revere. Revere is pronounced "Reveah" over heah, with a sharpness on the second syllable. And the women there are known for big eighties style hair. Even now.

[Stonehands89]

Never been to revere. I was in the north end the other night, "italian city"..best italian food you will ever eat in united states. 100% gauranteed. I used to go to brockton everyday for boxing training. I will have to checkout the new statue before I leave.
You can find me on summer evenings in the window seat of Piccolo Venezia. And Pizzeria Regina's on Thatcher Street is the best pizza I've ever had. Have you ever been to the feasts?

[mr. magoo]

Don't applaud too much, I was in the ring with a man legally blind. And was dumb enough to fight a blind man's fight the first time...!

Yes, I have friends in Revere. Revere is pronounced "Reveah" over heah, with a sharpness on the second syllable. And the women there are known for big eighties style hair. Even now.

I live in Chicago, but love the east coast. I would like to go back and visit Boston again. Legal seafoods was one of my favorite seafood joints. There were a whole bunch of other awesome restaurants that I can't remember the names of. Martha's Vineyard is one of my favorite places in the world. I was vacationing there in 1997, and watching TV with a beer in my hand, when the news came on telling the world that Princess Diana had just been killed. Man, the things we associate with time and other places.

Yeah I've often heard my sis' mention the pronounciation of Reveah'. She married a nice local guy, and they both moved back here this summer.

[SuzieQ49]

maghoo when i leave for bootcamp in 18 days ill be going to the great lakes in chicago, u anywhere near there?

[mr. magoo]

maghoo when i leave for bootcamp in 18 days ill be going to the great lakes in chicago, u anywhere near there?


Yes.

[Stonehands89]

I live in Chicago, but love the east coast. I would like to go back and visit Boston again. Legal seafoods was one of my favorite seafood joints. There were a whole bunch of other awesome restaurants that I can't remember the names of. Martha's Vineyard is one of my favorite places in the world. I was vacationing there in 1997, and watching TV with a beer in my hand, when the news came on telling the world that Princess Diana had just been killed. Man, the things we associate with time and other places.

Yeah I've often heard my sis' mention the pronounciation of Reveah'. She married a nice local guy, and they both moved back here this summer.
If you're ever up this way again, try Skipjack's. It's better than Legal's. Get the Scrod - Skipjack style. it's unbelievable.

Sinatra has been encouraging me to go to Chicago, Chicago for years and years!