Who beat the better competition at heavyweight Archie Moore or Gene Tunney?

[SuzieQ49]

who rates higher at heavyweight all time?


Heres the Breakdown


Genes heavyweight record 8-0

Archies heavyweight record 75-4(counting the rinaldo over the weight limit loss)


genes record against men over 200lb 1-0(1ko)

archies record against men over 200lb 22-1(19ko)


Genes record against hall of fame heavyweights- 2-0(0)

Archies record against hall of fame heavyweights- 5-3(3kos)

* charles and johnson fights were at 175lb dont count, but moores 4 wins over hall of fame heavyweight jimmy bivins over the limit count and his win over hall of famer clarence henry



genes record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweights under the age of 30- 1-0.... Ermillio Spalla

Archies record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweight under the age of 30- 10-2(4kos)




Top heavyweights beaten


Tunney-

Jack dempsey 2x- 32 years old coming off 3 year layoff, beat sharkey
Tommy Gibbons - 34 years old last fight of his career, top 10 rated
Ermillio Spalla - top 10 rated
Tom Heeney- 203lb top 10 rated 30 years old
Johnny Risko- 18-8 23 years old
Charley Weinert 2x- 54-15

Moore-

Nino Valdez 2x- 6'3 215lb # 1 heavyweight contender 28 years old
Bob Baker- 6'2 210lb # 2 rated heavyweight contender 26 years old
Clarence Henry- hall of famer, # 3 rated heavyweight contender 25 years old
Jimmy Bivins 4x- Hall of Famer 27-29 years old # 2 rated heavyweight
Alejandro lavorante- 6'4 212lb, # 4 rated heavyweight contender, 26 years old
James J parker- 6'3 212lb 29-5 top 10 rated 25 years old
Bob Satterfield - 26 years old
Embrell Davidson- 6'1 210lb 20-1 22 years old
Hatchetman Sheppard 2x- top 10 rated 27 years old

* I left off 4 wins over harold johnson, because johnson weighed 175lb despite him literally beating all of the heavyweight contenders out there at 175lb.

[rekcutnevets]

That is a rather impressive breakdown, SuzieQ49. It really made me read through it before making my statement on the subject.

Tunney gets it in my opinion, because he actually won the heavyweight championship. Your comparison does make it a legitimate question. I feel sorry for Moore in this regard. I really wish he could have won the heavyweight championship.

Still, Moore didn't and Tunney did.

[SuzieQ49]

Good points.....When you have to go against marciano and floyd patterson on one of his best nights.....it makes things rather difficult.


say archie had gotten to fight bob baker or hurricane jackson for the vacant heavyweight championship in 1956(instead of patterson) and won.....then in his 1st title defense been knocked out by floyd patterson? would ur opinion change then? seeing how he would have been champion?

[Russell]

75-3?

Wow. Never knew Archie quite did that well at heavyweight.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Russell
75-3?

Wow. Never knew Archie quite did that well at heavyweight.
That is an interesting, and relevant statistic. Thanks for messing with the confidence I have in my opinion.

I still stick by my original pick and reasons.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Russell
75-3?

Wow. Never knew Archie quite did that well at heavyweight.
Especially since the 3 losses came to Marciano, Patterson, and Ali.

[SuzieQ49]

Heres another good statistic for you Russell...



Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Jersey Joe Walcotts record = 0-1 vs top 5 rated Henry, Baker, Valdez


Moores record- 4-0 vs baker henry valdez

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by SuzieQ49
say archie had gotten to fight bob baker or hurricane jackson for the vacant heavyweight championship in 1956(instead of patterson) and won.....then in his 1st title defense been knocked out by floyd patterson? would ur opinion change then? seeing how he would have been champion?
No, and here is why. Tunney defeated Jack Dempsey. Dempsey was his day's Marciano, in terms of who the champion was. Marciano retired, and left a void to be filled. Winning against the challengers you mentioned would not fill this void, unfair or not.

[SuzieQ49]

Interesting point about beating the man...


But was Jack Dempsey not far removed from his prime? Marciano battered joe louis worse than Gene tunney battered dempsey, but I dont see anyone praising that one on a high pedastool?

As for comparing marciano with dempsey, was not the 1955 rocky marciano a much tougher fighter than the 1926 3 year layoff jack dempsey?

do you rate michael spinx highly for beating the man at heavyweight larry holmes twice?

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by SuzieQ49
Interesting point about beating the man...


But was Jack Dempsey not far removed from his prime? Marciano battered joe louis worse than Gene tunney battered dempsey, but I dont see anyone praising that one on a high pedastool?

As for comparing marciano with dempsey, was not the 1955 rocky marciano a much tougher fighter than the 1926 3 year layoff jack dempsey?

do you rate michael spinx highly for beating the man at heavyweight larry holmes twice?
As far as the Marciano battering Louis is concerned, Louis had retired then came back. There was a champion for Marciano to win the title from, and Louis had been replaced. Dempsey was still champ when he first lost to Tunney.

The 1955 Rocky probably was tougher than the 1926 Dempsey. Tunney beat Dempsey in most every round. If Rocky could manage to win 4 rounds against Tunney, would that mean he is over 4 times the fighter Dempsey was?

You can argue that Spinks was a better heavyweight than Tunney. His wins over Holmes and Cooney are arguable as good, or better, than any victory Tunney achieved.

[Russell]

Especially since the 3 losses came to Marciano, Patterson, and Ali.

And you really can't even hold the Ali loss against him, looking at the circumstances.

70 some odd wins against great fighters who are men far bigger then you, and only losing to two of them, who happen to be ATG's...

That's amazing.

[Mendoza]

75-3?

Wow. Never knew Archie quite did that well at heavyweight.

Neither did I, but keep in mind these are SuzieQ's numbers

In truth, Moore more than three times when he was over 175 pounds. Marciano, Patterson, Rinadli and Ali come to mind

Moore is also 0-3 vs Charles, and was Ko'd by a middle weights.

[mcvey]

who rates higher at heavyweight all time?


Heres the Breakdown


Genes heavyweight record 8-0

Archies heavyweight record 75-3


genes record against men over 200lb 1-0(1ko)

archies record against men over 200lb 22-1(19ko)


Genes record against hall of fame heavyweights- 2-0(0)

Archies record against hall of fame heavyweights- 5-3(3kos)

* charles and johnson fights were at 175lb dont count, but moores 4 wins over hall of fame heavyweight jimmy bivins over the limit count and his win over hall of famer clarence henry



genes record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweights under the age of 30- 1-0.... Ermillio Spalla

Archies record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweight under the age of 30- 10-2(4kos)




Top heavyweights beaten


Tunney-

Jack dempsey 2x- 32 years old coming off 3 year layoff, beat sharkey
Tommy Gibbons - 34 years old last fight of his career, top 10 rated
Ermillio Spalla - top 10 rated
Tom Heeney- 203lb top 10 rated 30 years old
Johnny Risko- 18-8 23 years old
Charley Weinert 2x- 54-15

Moore-

Nino Valdez 2x- 6'3 215lb # 1 heavyweight contender 28 years old
Bob Baker- 6'2 210lb # 2 rated heavyweight contender 26 years old
Clarence Henry- hall of famer, # 3 rated heavyweight contender 25 years old
Jimmy Bivins 4x- Hall of Famer 27-29 years old # 2 rated heavyweight
Alejandro lavorante- 6'4 212lb, # 4 rated heavyweight contender, 26 years old
James J parker- 6'3 212lb 29-5 top 10 rated 25 years old
Bob Satterfield - 26 years old
Embrell Davidson- 6'1 210lb 20-1 22 years old
Hatchetman Sheppard 2x- top 10 rated 27 years old

* I left off 4 wins over harold johnson, because johnson weighed 175lb despite him literally beating all of the heavyweight contenders out there at 175lb.
Moore has the better record on paper,imo,but I pick Tuinney to beat him at Hvy And LH

[SuzieQ49]

Neither did I, but keep in mind these are SuzieQ's numbers

In truth, Moore more than three times when he was over 175 pounds. Marciano, Patterson, Rinadli and Ali come to mind

Moore is also 0-3 vs Charles, and was Ko'd by a middle weights.


They are accurate, I did a count of every moore fight in which he weighed over the 175lb limit and/or his opponent weighed over the 175lb limit. I left off the charles and harold johnson fights since they all took place a 175lb. Thank you for bringing up the Rinaldi fight, that one slipped my mind since it was nothing more than a over the weight light-h match, but following my standards, that one belongs as a moore loss at heavyweight giving him 75 wins and 4 losses and 3 draws.......still not bad!


btw now knowing moore did so well at heavyweight mendoza, does that change ur opinion of him?


Marcianofrazier if your out there, can you confirm moores record for me I believe u had it very close to my numbers?

[Minotauro]

Moore fought more at the weight and is probably more proven but Tunney has the Dempsey wins and although Jack was past his best they are still quality wins over an ATG. I think it’s fair to rank either guy higher at heavyweight I personally have Moore higher at light heavy and Tunney higher at heavy.

[PowerPuncher]

So do you rate Moore about Tunney at HW. Moore definately has the overall better resume against different styles, but the Dempsey wins trump all of Moore's wins. Then again you could argue Spinks and Moorer's wins at HW against Holmes and Holyfield trump Tunney's, yet no one ranks Spinks and Moorer over TUnney at HW. Why is this? Obviously they were blasted out but if Tunney had been blasted out by say Godfrey (who he avoided) would he be downgraded? Is it fair Tunney gets marks for not facing other top contenders?

[SuzieQ49]

do you think a total of 7 wins over valdez baker henry and bivins are worse than 2 wins over a 32 year old dempsey?

[PowerPuncher]

do you think a total of 7 wins over valdez baker henry and bivins are worse than 2 wins over a INNACTIVE 32 year old dempsey?

Corrected, and you may have a good point, if you want to follow that train of thought, Tunney is dropping out the top 30 though

[Marciano Frazier]

They are accurate, I did a count of every moore fight in which he weighed over the 175lb limit and/or his opponent weighed over the 175lb limit. I left off the charles and harold johnson fights since they all took place a 175lb. Thank you for bringing up the Rinaldi fight, that one slipped my mind since it was nothing more than a over the weight light-h match, but following my standards, that one belongs as a moore loss at heavyweight giving him 75 wins and 4 losses and 3 draws.......still not bad!


btw now knowing moore did so well at heavyweight mendoza, does that change ur opinion of him?


Marcianofrazier if your out there, can you confirm moores record for me I believe u had it very close to my numbers?
Well, as I recall, when I went through Moore's record to get a total of his heavyweight fights, my confirmed count was somewhere in the 60s in wins, but there were a fair number more fights that (at least at the time) weights weren't listed which looked likely to have been at heavyweight (judging by the chronology), so 75 wins is likely to be a pretty good approximation, to my knowledge.

[Marciano Frazier]

By the way, however, though Moore's heavyweight record has some decided advantages over Tunney's, I would still consider Tunney's world championship and wins over Dempsey (who, at least for the second fight, had proven himself still an elite) to be an overruling factor in this comparison; Tunney ranks in the lower end of the top 20 for me, Moore the lower top 30.

[abraq]

Well, now that you have so kindly provided the stats, I would say that Moore's HW success has more depth and quantity.

But as someone pointed out, Tunney actually won the HW Championship --- add 'undisputed' to give better perspective. Plus, he beat the great Jack Dempsey, not once but twice. I know, I know Dempsey was past his best at that time.

[McGrain]

Very good thread this.