Holyfield 5th title

[wildedwards]

If Evander Holyfield wins a fifth title does it put him above Lennox Lewis in terms of Heavyweight ATG?

[Stewbear]

No.
While winning an alphabet title againstd a nobody at 44 may be impressive, it is still winning an alphabet title against a nobody.

[Stewbear]

He already is above Lewis in ATG status as far as I'm concerned.

Lennox Lewis beat up Evan Fields twice.

[BewareofDawg]

If Evander Holyfield wins a fifth title does it put him above Lennox Lewis in terms of Heavyweight ATG?
No way!!!!!!!!

[Unforgiven]

I dont put much stock in these alphabet titles.

But Holyfield is arguably going to be ranked as great or greater than Lennox Lewis on an all-time ranking list.
Even if he does nothing else in his career it's already debatable. It's a close call between the two, IMO.

We'll see where Holyfield stands if and when he retires for good.

[BewareofDawg]

He already is above Lewis in ATG status as far as I'm concerned.
You should get your noggin checked for down syndrome if you think Holyfield is ranked higher than Lewis all-time at Heavyweight. Not to mention their head-to-head encounters, Holyfields resume at Heavy isn't close to Lennox's.

[Jose FM]

Holyfield is already above Lewis, in my eyes and most peoples eyes. Winning a 5th title would put him over on everyones list.

[BewareofDawg]

Holyfield is already above Lewis, in my eyes and most peoples eyes. Winning a 5th title would put him over on everyones list.
Holyfield is fringe top 10 all time for me. Lewis is #3 right behind Ali, and Louis.

And Holyfield beating Ibrahgimaihgnov isn't going to change shit.

[Bazooka]

if Evander Holyfield wins a fifth Heavyweight title and does so in a Holyfield kind of way, He may end up being rated the best Heavyweight of all time.

[BewareofDawg]

Why will this win count in his all-time standing but the losses to Ruiz, Booker and Toney are overlooked?

[Jose FM]

You should get your noggin checked for down syndrome if you think Holyfield is ranked higher than Lewis all-time at Heavyweight. Not to mention their head-to-head encounters, Holyfields resume at Heavy isn't close to Lennox's.
Actually Holyfields resume is better, dont forget he was also the undisputed Cruisweight Champion. Holyfield has the deeper competition on his resume, and Lewis btw only beat him once officially. Tarver beat Jones 2x does that mean he should be higher than JOnes AT? The answer is no.:hi:

[Jose FM]

Why will this win count in his all-time standing but the losses to Ruiz, Booker and Toney are overlooked?
Clearly that was a dimishing Holyfield. And they would count just as much as Lewis' 2 losses to McCall and Rahman.

[Feiti]

If you count Holy´s cruiser titles, maybe he deserves to be ranked higher than Lewis, but if you are just talking about greatest heavyweights, Lewis is pretty far ahead.

Lewis key wins:
Holyfield (realistically twice), Tyson, Golata (never the same), Vitali, Tua, Rahman, Ruddock (ruined), McCall, Bruno, Grant (ruined), Mercer, Morrison, Botha

Losses:
McCall (avenged by TKO), Rahman (avenged by KO)

Holyfield key wins:
Tyson x2, Bowe, Moorer, Douglas (ruined, but was woefully out of shape), Mercer, Foreman (old), Holmes (old), Dokes, Ruiz, Rahman

Holyfield losses:
Bowe x2 (1 by KO), Moorer, Lewis (realistically x2), Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, Donald

[Zakman]

He already is above Lewis in ATG status as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly. Holyfield fought two of the other top guys in his era - Bowe and Tyson when it MATTERED, not when they were way past their best, AND he was never starched in the early rounds by second-rate opposition. If he wins another alphabet title, it will not just be unjustified to rank him below Lewis, it will be ridiculous.:yep

[Bazooka]

If you count Holy´s cruiser titles, maybe he deserves to be ranked higher than Lewis, but if you are just talking about greatest heavyweights, Lewis is pretty far ahead.

Lewis key wins:
Holyfield (realistically twice), Tyson, Golata (never the same), Vitali, Tua, Rahman, Ruddock (ruined), McCall, Bruno, Grant (ruined), Mercer, Morrison, Botha

Losses:
McCall (avenged by TKO), Rahman (avenged by KO)

Holyfield key wins:
Tyson x2, Bowe, Moorer, Douglas (ruined, but was woefully out of shape), Mercer, Foreman (old), Holmes (old), Dokes, Ruiz, Rahman

Holyfield losses:
Bowe x2 (1 by KO), Moorer, Lewis (realistically x2), Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, Donald

You forgot to add that in the rematch with Moorer Evander avenged that by TKO, and the first fight there was questionable in terms of the scoring the Ruiz fights Holyfield won atleast two of them, what doesnt look good for Holyfield is his losses to that Steriod user Toney and to Donald and the Byrd fight.
Hell you could even make a case for Evander in his rematch with Lewis.

[Jose FM]

haha, o face is hilarious, but also he would become only man in history to be 5x world champ, and top of cruiser titles coupled with the fact that he will be 44 yrs old is quite an accomplishment. No matter what excuses are attached to the fights or fighters a win, a loss, or a draw whats on the record is on the record.

[BewareofDawg]

Actually Holyfields resume is better, dont forget he was also the undisputed Cruisweight Champion. Holyfield has the deeper competition on his resume, and Lewis btw only beat him once officially. Tarver beat Jones 2x does that mean he should be higher than JOnes AT? The answer is no.:hi:
What Holyfield did at Cruiserweight has absolutely NO BEARING on his all time Heavyweight standing. Technically? Lewis beat him twice, end of argument. And no, Lewis has the much steeper competition on his resume when we isolate Holyfields career at Heavy. Lewis fought almost every top contender that came along....and beat them.

[BewareofDawg]

Exactly. Holyfield fought two of the other top guys in his era - Bowe and Tyson when it MATTERED, not when they were way past their best, AND he was never starched in the early rounds by second-rate opposition. If he wins another alphabet title, it will not just be unjustified to rank him below Lewis, it will be ridiculous.:yep
OH, here you go again with this bullshit :rofl :rofl :rofl You are worse than the Margarita cheerleading squad when they were trying to put Margo on the level of Hagler :lol: Yeah he fought Bowe in his Prime....and lost twice!!!!! And Bowe is only a top guy of the era because he beat Holyfield. Really, what else did Bowe do to merit such a standing??? And the only fight Holyfield won against Bowe...in his career defining trilogy was interrupted by fucking fan man while the momentum was favoring Bowe. And a "Post Prison" Tyson was not when it MATTERED!

[Unforgiven]

If you count Holy´s cruiser titles, maybe he deserves to be ranked higher than Lewis, but if you are just talking about greatest heavyweights, Lewis is pretty far ahead.

Lewis key wins:
Holyfield (realistically twice), Tyson, Golata (never the same), Vitali, Tua, Rahman, Ruddock (ruined), McCall, Bruno, Grant (ruined), Mercer, Morrison, Botha

Losses:
McCall (avenged by TKO), Rahman (avenged by KO)

Holyfield key wins:
Tyson x2, Bowe, Moorer, Douglas (ruined, but was woefully out of shape), Mercer, Foreman (old), Holmes (old), Dokes, Ruiz, Rahman

Holyfield losses:
Bowe x2 (1 by KO), Moorer, Lewis (realistically x2), Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, Donald

So how does all that suggest that Lewis is "pretty far ahead" ? :huh

Looks about level to me. It could be said that Lewis was a better judge of when to retire to make his win-loss balance most impressive.

Also, there are probably other wins that could be included on the resumes of both men. Some of the choices are odd (Botha for example, he's not a better name than lots of guys who you dont include on Holy's resume.).
Buster Douglas was "woefully out of shape" as much as David Tua was, but he had size advantages over Evander. I think that win gets played down too much. Douglas was a decent fighter.

A couple of Holyfield's losses are disputable, and most of them happened after Holyfield's 36th birthday (the same age Muhammad Ali starting losing to guys like Leon Spinks).
Actually he was 38-42 when he lost to Ruiz, Byrd, Toney and Donald.

It's a close call between Lewis and Holyfield, there's no huge gap between them.

[The Italarican]

Why will this win count in his all-time standing but the losses to Ruiz, Booker and Toney are overlooked?

Booker?

As far as I'm concerned, the Ruiz trilogy does count on Holyfield's legacy, but there comes a point where once a fighter is past his prime, shortcomings can be overlooked and accomplishments can be magnified. Reason being: we don't hold it against someone who loses significantly past his prime if it doesn't look like a true reflection of his reign, but an accomplishment siginficantly past prime can be a sign of how special someone was. Another thing to consider is how long the prime lasts; that is, sometimes we DO hold losses past prime against a fighter if their prime was so short (Tyson could be an example... a very debatable example I admit).

I'm not sure if I'd put Holyfield ahead of Lewis should he beat Ibragimov, but depending how he looks, it's something I'd have to consider.

[BewareofDawg]

Booker?

As far as I'm concerned, the Ruiz trilogy does count on Holyfield's legacy, but there comes a point where once a fighter is past his prime, shortcomings can be overlooked and accomplishments can be magnified. Reason being: we don't hold it against someone who loses significantly past his prime if it doesn't look like a true reflection of his reign, but an accomplishment siginficantly past prime can be a sign of how special someone was. Another thing to consider is how long the prime lasts; that is, sometimes we DO hold losses past prime against a fighter if their prime was so short (Tyson could be an example... a very debatable example I admit).

I'm not sure if I'd put Holyfield ahead of Lewis should he beat Ibragimov, but depending how he looks, it's something I'd have to consider.
My bad. NOt Booker, Donald. I see your points. but you also have to take into consideration that he is still the same fighter that lost to those guys...only older and more diminished now. So any "title-holder" that loses to him cannot be that great a mark on anyone's resume :deal

[Jose FM]

What Holyfield did at Cruiserweight has absolutely NO BEARING on his all time Heavyweight standing.
Of course it does, how could you even say that? The fact that he was the undisputed cruiserweight champ, to then move up and become the undisputed HW champ absolutely means something, you cant discredit his accomplishments just cause you think they dont matter.

Technically? Lewis beat him twice, end of argument. And no, Lewis has the much steeper competition on his resume when we isolate Holyfields career at Heavy. Lewis fought almost every top contender that came along....and beat them.
In 1999 he officially lost to Lewis and clearly Holy had seen his better days behind him. And like i said if Tarver beat Jones 2x does that mean Tarver is higher that him All time? The answer again is no.

[BewareofDawg]

Of course it does, how could you even say that? The fact that he was the undisputed cruiserweight champ, to then move up and become the undisputed HW champ absolutely means something, you cant discredit his accomplishments just cause you think they dont matter.


.
No it doesn't.!!!! When ranking all-time HEAVYWEIGHTS you should only look at what the fighter did at HEAVYWEIGHT!!!!!

[Bazooka]

My bad. NOt Booker, Donald. I see your points. but you also have to take into consideration that he is still the same fighter that lost to those guys...only older and more diminished now. So any "title-holder" that loses to him cannot be that great a mark on anyone's resume :deal

You cant knock what Holyfield has been able to do, when you stack Lewis and Holyfield up, Evander has fought the fresher versions of Tyson and of Mercer and Holyfield beat Mercer far more convincingly than Lewis did.
if you want to knock the man for his losses to Ruiz Donald Byrd and Toney, what does this mean about Lewis's loss to Rahman? or McCall? Sure he did win rematches but lets be 100% truthfull, McCall was not mentally fit to fight the fight itself proves that.
his Rematch to Rahman was a great come back knock out for Lewis no doubt, but he still has that loss from the man as to where Holyfield beat Rahman when they fought.
you really cant use Lewis to discredit Holyfield, becuase his wins over Holyfield are really what stamped his legacy in the sport, so if you knock on Holyfield basicly your knocking on Lennox if you say Holyfield didnt do shit, then what does a Lewis win over Evander mean?

[Bazooka]

No it doesn't.!!!! When ranking all-time HEAVYWEIGHTS you should only look at what the fighter did at HEAVYWEIGHT!!!!!

True but look at the weight that guys like Dempsey and Marciano carried as a HW its no different than Cruiser weight, so should we automaticly say those guys were Cruisers and did nothing at HW? I didnt think so.

[The Italarican]

My bad. NOt Booker, Donald. I see your points. but you also have to take into consideration that he is still the same fighter that lost to those guys...only older and more diminished now. So any "title-holder" that loses to him cannot be that great a mark on anyone's resume :deal

Holyfield is claiming that shoulder problems significantly hindered him around the Byrd/Toney/Donald fights. I'm not willing to accept that just yet because even though he's looked much better since last year, Savarese and Maddalone are not in the leagues of Byrd and Donald at the times he fought them. Having said that, Holyfield does seem to have an extra kick in his step of late.

I'm not as high on Ibragimov as some here are. I'd put the 2007 Sultan below the 2002 Byrd and 2003 Toney (maybe) but above the 2004 Donald. If Holyfield looks great against Sultan, it may come down to how good Sultan looks over the next few years before we get an idea of how significant that win was.

Again, this is all under the assumption that Holyfield wins... which is not a given by any stretch.

[BewareofDawg]

You cant knock what Holyfield has been able to do, when you stack Lewis and Holyfield up, Evander has fought the fresher versions of Tyson and of Mercer and Holyfield beat Mercer far more convincingly than Lewis did.
if you want to knock the man for his losses to Ruiz Donald Byrd and Toney, what does this mean about Lewis's loss to Rahman? or McCall? Sure he did win rematches but lets be 100% truthfull, McCall was not mentally fit to fight the fight itself proves that.
his Rematch to Rahman was a great come back knock out for Lewis no doubt, but he still has that loss from the man as to where Holyfield beat Rahman when they fought.
you really cant use Lewis to discredit Holyfield, becuase his wins over Holyfield are really what stamped his legacy in the sport, so if you knock on Holyfield basicly your knocking on Lennox if you say Holyfield didnt do shit, then what does a Lewis win over Evander mean?
I am not knocking Holyfield for his losses against Toney and Donald and Ruiz. I knock Holyfield down the rankings for his losses to Bowe and Moorer...which he got beaten (not caught on the button by a singler shot, but beaten) 3 times.....in his Prime.

Didn't Lewis like beat Mercer a year after Holyfield? Not that much fresher.

Just look at how many more dangerous, young, hungry heavyweights Lewis fought and beat then Holyfield.

[BewareofDawg]

Holyfield is claiming that shoulder problems significantly hindered him around the Byrd/Toney/Donald fights. I'm not willing to accept that just yet because even though he's looked much better since last year, Savarese and Maddalone are not in the leagues of Byrd and Donald at the times he fought them. Having said that, Holyfield does seem to have an extra kick in his step of late.

I'm not as high on Ibragimov as some here are. I'd put the 2007 Sultan below the 2002 Byrd and 2003 Toney (maybe) but above the 2004 Donald. If Holyfield looks great against Sultan, it may come down to how good Sultan looks over the next few years before we get an idea of how significant that win was.

Again, this is all under the assumption that Holyfield wins... which is not a given by any stretch.
Fair enough.

[Stewbear]

Lewis beat up holyfield twice.
End of thread.

[Bazooka]

I am not knocking Holyfield for his losses against Toney and Donald and Ruiz. I knock Holyfield down the rankings for his losses to Bowe and Moorer...which he got beaten (not caught on the button by a singler shot, but beaten) 3 times.....in his Prime.

Didn't Lewis like beat Mercer a year after Holyfield? Not that much fresher.

Just look at how many more dangerous, young, hungry heavyweights Lewis fought and beat then Holyfield.

Name those young dangerous fighters Lewis faced? Seriously!
and yeah Holyfield did lose three times in his prime, However there were medical issues that took place during the Moorer fight, that left Holyfield suspended from the sport for a short period of time.
either way I would like to see that list of more dangerous fighters that Lewis beat. Lewis ducked Ruiz, While Holyfield fought the man three times, Lewis Ducked Byrd while Evander took that fight.
Holyfield has fought anybody and everybody that you cant deny

[wildedwards]

The way I see it is that Lewis was the greater heavyweight mainly because he was more dominant in his era. P4P Holyfield is a greater fighter without doubt.

[barneyrub]

If Evander Holyfield wins a fifth title does it put him above Lennox Lewis in terms of Heavyweight ATG?WBO has never been seen as a real WORLD title at heavyweight. Apart from by wlad who gets disengeniously anounced as the 2 time world champion on the basis of the WBO title which if you look at its holders and history has always been an irrelevancy, often vacated for shots at real titles or even just discarded.

[Boro chris]

Exactly. Holyfield fought two of the other top guys in his era - Bowe and Tyson when it MATTERED, not when they were way past their best, AND he was never starched in the early rounds by second-rate opposition. If he wins another alphabet title, it will not just be unjustified to rank him below Lewis, it will be ridiculous.:yep

Everyone knows not to take you seriously whenever Lewis is concerned.

As a heavy Lewis is clearly superior.
P4P I have Holyfield slightly ahead as he's clearly the best Cruiser of all time.

[barneyrub]

Name those young dangerous fighters Lewis faced? Seriously!
and yeah Holyfield did lose three times in his prime, However there were medical issues that took place during the Moorer fight, that left Holyfield suspended from the sport for a short period of time.
either way I would like to see that list of more dangerous fighters that Lewis beat. Lewis ducked Ruiz, While Holyfield fought the man three times, Lewis Ducked Byrd while Evander took that fight.
Holyfield has fought anybody and everybody that you cant denyIn fact Ruiz refused to fight Lewis, he let don king take Lewis to court to have him stripped of his belt rather than to accept the title fight which Lewis held open for him to take place in july 2000. The WBA didnt strip Lewis, they allowed him to fight Grant if he fought Ruiz in july 2000 which he agreed to do in London, Ruiz was replaced by Botha.
King had Lewis stripped of the belt by the court due to a contract clause in the Lewis Holyfield contract. The WBA were against this action. Ironically Ruiz would have got his shot against lewis in July but had to wait until August for his title fight against Holyfield after the court case.

As for your excuse about Holyfield having a medical condition, well dr goodman of the nevada commission came out recently and said that that heart murmur he had was a classic sign of HGH and steroid abuse.

[Bazooka]

Did u bump your head??? Name a fighter who knocked out Holyfield in his prime? .

Bowe Knocked out Evander in his prime it was the tail end of his prime but he got it done, Also lets not forget Bowe was widely considered the best Heavyweight in the world when this happend, and When Lewis was knocked out by Both McCall and by Rahman were they considered the best Heavyweight on the planet then? Hell no they were not.

[Bazooka]

As for your excuse about Holyfield having a medical condition, well dr goodman of the nevada commission came out recently and said that that heart murmur he had was a classic sign of HGH and steroid abuse.

Source? Evander Holyfield has never once tested positive for Steriods.

[BewareofDawg]

Name those young dangerous fighters Lewis faced? Seriously!
and yeah Holyfield did lose three times in his prime, However there were medical issues that took place during the Moorer fight, that left Holyfield suspended from the sport for a short period of time.
either way I would like to see that list of more dangerous fighters that Lewis beat. Lewis ducked Ruiz, While Holyfield fought the man three times, Lewis Ducked Byrd while Evander took that fight.
Holyfield has fought anybody and everybody that you cant deny
Byrd and Ruiz???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SevenSamurai]

He has had 9 losses in his career for gods sake officially and another 2 or 3 unofficially, how can he be above Lewis? Lewis was the dominant undisputed champion and Lewis beat him twice during that rein as well.
The first fight result being one of the most corrupt boxing decisions known to mankind.:hi:

[Butch Coolidge]

I know I'm going to sound dumb as mud for asking this but what the hell did Holy do to be considered better than Lennox Lewis?
:huh

Sorry, I don't get it.

[BewareofDawg]

Did u bump your head??? Name a fighter who knocked out Holyfield in his prime? Oliver? Haseem? No, that was lennox. Number three??? You're nuts! Over Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Jack Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey...these are legends...LL was at the right place at the right time. He's never been in a classic fight.
Right place at the right time? No that was Holyfield when he was awarded the title fight with the worst Heavyweight champion in the history of the division (next to Ruiz....who beat Holyfield :lol: ) Buster Douglas. Then Holy followed up that amazing victory over the 400lb Douglas with two wins over two greats that fought Muhammad Ali they go back so far, Holmes and Foreman. Then he went on to lose 2 out of 3 to Bowe. Bowe? Best Heavy at the time? I'll aske again....what else did Bowe do besides beat Holyfield??

[Unforgiven]

Lewis was great, but no way can he be placed in the top 3 of all-time. That's ludricrous.

As for Evander Holyfield, he's by far the best win on Lewis's record, and if he's over-rated then I dont see how beating him when he's 36/37 in the fashion that Lewis did would warrant Lewis being held in such high regard.

Truth is, Lewis was ROBBED OUTRIGHT in the first match and he also won the second match, but his performances were hardly amazing.

The Holyfield who beat Douglas in 1990 was better than when he lost to Lewis in 1999, and Lewis (who was probably still at his best in 1999?) couldn't knock him down and Holyfield seemed to be working Lewis out in the rematch.
There cant really be said to be much between them.

Anyone who says Holyfield is miles ahead of Lewis is full of shit.
And anyone who says Lewis is miles ahead of Holyfield is full of shit too.

[Boro chris]

Lewis ducked Ruiz, While Holyfield fought the man three times, Lewis Ducked Byrd while Evander took that fight.
Holyfield has fought anybody and everybody that you cant deny

What!! Your criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd and that fearsome collosus Ruiz!!:patsch :rofl

[BewareofDawg]

I agree with you. Holyfield does have the sensation 96 Tyson scalp though. That's a top notch win and noone Lewis beat approaches that scope.


Lewis is far greater though
I would favor a few guys on Lewis's resume over the version of Tyson that Evander beat.

[K0NPHL1C7]

Never deserved his 4th title, so no.

[Bazooka]

What!! Your criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd and that fearsome collosus Ruiz!!:patsch :rofl

I criticise any Champion who does not face his mandotory just as the vast majority of you here were giving shit to Margarito when the idea of him dumping that title to fight Cotto came about.
Lewis did not fight two mandotorys and a fight with Byrd might have actually been a good fight considering that Byrd found a way to make Vitali quit, Byrd has had a history at that time of standing in there with Big guys and winning, Both Vitali and Tua, I think that Lewis should have took that fight, but I am sure he had a good reason not to, Byrd back then didnt stand in front of you the way he did with Wlad, he just made you look like shit, which is exactly why Lewis didnt fight him.
Ruiz is another fighter who will make you look like shit but i understand not wanting to fight him and I also understand that they did offer Ruiz a fight, and Ruiz then went along with Kings game to take the shit to court, However IMHO Champions Should and Must defend and face their mandotorys.
Why is it, Margarito gets hell for considering dumping a meaningless title to fight for a worthy title and a better name on his resume, yet Lewis and Mayweather and Jones Jr are all allowed to pick who they want to fight ?

[Bazooka]

Buster Douglas is FARRRR from the Worst HW Champion. His accomplishment in defeating a prime Tyson for the UNDISPUTED Championship eclipses anything your precious Golden Hero has done inside of or outside of the ring. How many UNDISPUTED Titles did OScar win???? I see.
'
Anyway, Holmes and Foreman at the time, could have taken out ANY HW today, including the Gay Frankenstein Twins, the Clit-sckos.

Damn jack your starting to make some sense Hmmm perhaps you took your meds today?:huh

[paulfv]

Holy has long been ahead of LL as ATG'ness. If he wins this one, he's only further ahead

[BewareofDawg]

The fuck are you talking about fool? Atleast come up with some facts before you start talking. Lewis may have beaten everyone he ever faced but he never faced and beat the kinds of great fighters that Holy beat close or at their prime; Bowe, Moorer, Tyson. Who was Lewis's greatest win against? The aging Evander Holyfield which some say even beat Lennox the second time around?
He lost 2 out of 3 to bowe and the one he win, he most likely would have lost as well if it hadn't been for fan man. Fact. Tyson was nowhere near his prime. And he lost to Moorer. Now, Lewis beat:

V Klit
Holy (He beat Holy 2 years after Holy's greatest win at Heavy....how shot could he have been??????????)
Tyson
Golota (Schooled and whooped the great Bowe....who whooped Holy)
Grant
Mercer
Morrison
Briggs
Bruno
Tua
Ruddock
Rahman
McCall

All of these guys were live, hungry and dangerous opponents.

[BewareofDawg]

Buster Douglas is FARRRR from the Worst HW Champion. His accomplishment in defeating a prime Tyson for the UNDISPUTED Championship eclipses anything your precious Golden Hero has done inside of or outside of the ring. How many UNDISPUTED Titles did OScar win???? I see.
'
Anyway, Holmes and Foreman at the time, could have taken out ANY HW today, including the Gay Frankenstein Twins, the Clit-sckos.
I'm gonna just ignore the fact that you for some gay reason brought Oscar into this thread :lol: :patsch , and move right on to the stupidity that is the 2nd part of your post:
Wlad and Vitali both would absolutely mangle, demolish, rip to shreds and put Old Holmes and Old Foreman to sleep :deal :deal Those would be very very ugly fights :lol:

[Bazooka]

V Klit (Good win for Lewis legit but try telling that to the Klitschko nuthuggers here)

Holy (Whipped Evanders ass in fight one, the rematch Holyfield did win IMO but he deserved to get short changed after the way Lewis was)

Tyson (Holyfield beat a prime Tyson, Lewis did not, Lewis fought a well aged Spinal version of Mike)

Golota (yeah he whipped bowes ass no doubt but bowe was totally shot by then after going through three wars with Evander, Lets not also forget that Mike made Golota quit after two rounds, the same mike that Holyfield whipped twice)

Grant (Grant lost to fucking McClein for god sakes not to forget what Guinn did with his ass)

Mercer (Holyfield beat Mercer more convincingly than did Lewis he even dropped Ray un like Lewis)

Morrison ( Who the fuck is Tommy Morrison? the same guy Mercer destroyed with ease the same Mercer Holyfield schooled)

Briggs (whipptey dee do you are not at all serious with this one are you?)

Bruno (Bruno was getting in that ass until Lewis threw a desperate shot and closed the show, But lets not forget what Mike did to Frank, the same Mike that Holyfield mopped the floor with) (See we can do this shit all day)

Tua (David Tua? okay good win but its not a great win He hasnt done anything in the sport)

Ruddock (yeah yeah and this guy also got knocked the fuck out by Tommy Morrison)

Rahman (No matter what happend in the rematch this C level fighter still has a win over Lewis, but has a loss to Evander)

McCall (Mental head case that knocked Lewis out, and in the rematch didnt even fight due to his mental health issues I know your not stacking up Lewis for that are you)

[Zakman]

Holy has long been ahead of LL as ATG'ness. If he wins this one, he's only further ahead

Right on the money! :nod