Let's say nothing was in the bottle in the first Pryor-Arguello match...

[Bill1234]

How do you feel it would have turned out if Aaron didn't get that extra "boost"?

[JohnThomas1]

Look Bill, this is an impossible question sorry.

[Bill1234]

I meant how do you feel it would have turned out.

[Seven Chance]

The same way just like the rematch.

[JohnThomas1]

I meant how do you feel it would have turned out.

Well we don't have any REAL clue if the bottle was loaded or not. Honestly, this is just impossible. Even if we KNEW the bottle was hot we'd be just guessing, and if we knew it wasn't well obviously no change.

[natonic]

It's possible nothing was in the bottle for the first fight. I doubt we'll ever know so we have to go with the fight we saw. And I don't agree that the 2nd fight proves anything. Arguello suffered a brutal knockout (fairly or unfairly) at the end of the first fight and it surely took a lot out of him physically and more importantly mentally.

[tommy the hat]

To me, Arguello lost to Pryor because he was a guy who won his first title at featherweight and by the time he fought Pryor, was competing at 140. Also though still a dangerous and formidible challenge for Pryor, not only was he not at his best weight, but he had been a pro for 15 years at that point and had over 80 bouts, so he was past his prime as well. Because IMO Arguello in his prime and at his best weight is one of the top 20 fighters pound for pound of all time.

[Bill Butcher]

Even as an Arguello fan, I will say that the fight would have turned out......

Pryor TKO14 Arguello

[Duodenum]

"I hit him with good shots, and nothing happens." Arguello after Miami. My supposition is that Alex's resistance and spirit were crushed after the Hawk took that magnificent right, and Pryor had demonstrated excellent stamina and late round finishing ability before. Even against Bobby Joe Young, he wasn't separated from his senses. He could get dropped by being caught off-balance, but he never appeared to be knocked silly. I don't think the contents of the bottle changed the outcome.

[Rise Above]

I cant say the result would be any different.

[prime]

In my book, this win will always carry an asterisk. You cannot mix water with water. The evidence is there. Something was amiss. Minutes later, Pryor storms out with a strong combination, enough for a TKO win that eluded him for the previous 13 rounds.

This is a shame, because Pryor was ahead and may have won without a boost, but the simple fact that his trainer introduced it to me cancels out what transpired later, just as Ben Johnson's steroid use cancelled out his win over Lewis, his record time and his gold medal triumph. Once you play outside the rules, you are elegible for disqualification.

At their best weights, Argüello was greater than Pryor.

The rematch saw a worn-out and mentally beaten warrior in Argüello naturally falling short against his naturally bigger, younger foe.

What happened, happened, but Argüello's standing is just as large as if he had won his fourth crown, never complaining, seeking glory choosing the most perilous road possible, and emerging what he is: a champion.

[Thinman]

If the bottle was loaded...... then Pryor was loaded before he went to the ring (before the 1st round started)......... the 13th round thing, would have been just a "refill"

I asked a question long time ago... and I will ask it again... what drugs were available at that time (other than coca)..... drugs that could make somebody react like brand new.....

There was no urine test before or after the fight and Pryor didn't want the fight to be a 15rd fight...... He wanted a 12 rd fight.....

[aj415]

I think a better question is how would a prime Arguello fair against a nonjuiced Pryor

[Duodenum]

Argüello's standing is just as large as if he had won his fourth crown, never complaining, seeking glory choosing the most perilous road possible, and emerging what he is: a champion.Years ago, a book was published titled, "How to Want What You Have." Since Arguello challenged Pryor in Miami, several boxers have collected titles in several weight divisions, diminishing the magnitude of Alex's aspirations for a fourth crown. However, El Flaco Explosive has indeed registered a historic career first which has been overlooked.

Alexis Arguello will forever be the first boxer in history to successfully defend world championships in three different weight divisions without ever being dethroned by a challenger.

Of the four triple crown champions who preceded Benitez, Fitzsimmons lost the heavyweight title in his first defense to Jeffries, and the light heavyweight honors to Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. Canzoneri managed to lose both the LW and JWW Championships in a single match to Barney Ross. P4P ATG Ross lost his WW Title to both McLarnin and fellow P4P ATG Armstrong. Hank in turn eventually lost that WW crown to Zivic, never defended his FW honors, and lost in his first defense at LW in the rematch with Ambers. Benitez vacated his first championship at 140, but did lose the WW belt to SRL, and at 154 to Hearns.

Arguello might actually be the first champion to defend world titles in more than one weight division without ever losing a title defense. So far, every double crown predecessor of Alex's who I've researched retired either having vacated a championship they never defended, or lost at least once to a title challenger.

Winning championships in multiple divisions is now like hitting 500 career home runs in baseball. But making multiple title defenses in three different weight divisions without ever losing as a defending champion is more like 500 pitching victories. It's very difficult for any boxer to retire with an intact title defense record like Arguello's, as the temptation to continue competing until being conquered is so pervasive.

PBF won titles in five weight divisions, but he only defended three of those. To break Arguello's record by defending successfully in a fourth division, he'd first have to come out of retirement, win a title at a weight he never defended a championship at, successfully repel a challenger, then retire for good without ever being defeated in defense of that title. (Incidentally, PBF has had only 13 title defenses to Arguello's 19.)

[Mantequilla]

Winning titles in multiple weightclasses has been sorely diminished as an accomplishment in recent years.

[JohnThomas1]

Winning titles in multiple weightclasses has been sorely diminished as an accomplishment in recent years.

Very true. Even in the day Arguello fought Pryor the new Junior divisions made the accomplishment almost null and void, to be honest. Alexis would have had two Junior titles. Later Hearns won the 175 title for his third then stepped back to claim the 160 for his fourth, but he still had one Junior division in there. Arguello tho did go thru the best in each division. One shudders to imagine what the old timers would have achieved with these junior divisions, let alone the 10 000 title belts on offer present day and extra divisions AGAIN.

Armstrong would have likely had Feather, Junior Light, Light, Junior Welter, Welter and quite possibly Junior Middle given he almost nabbed the 160. SRR would have won a shitload, as well as various other fighters.

It'll never happen but wouldn't it be nice to have one champ or at most two per divisions with the champs forced to be active so deserving challengers get their rotation. All these titles and divisions sure as hell don't help boxing.

[My2Sense]

If the bottle was loaded...... then Pryor was loaded before he went to the ring (before the 1st round started)......... the 13th round thing, would have been just a "refill"

I asked a question long time ago... and I will ask it again... what drugs were available at that time (other than coca)..... drugs that could make somebody react like brand new.....

There was no urine test before or after the fight and Pryor didn't want the fight to be a 15rd fight...... He wanted a 12 rd fight.....

The black bottle was given to Pryor twice that's on film, after the 2nd round and again after the 13th.

Most people speculate that if a drug was in the bottle, it would've been speed.

I believe there actually was a urine test after the fight, but the local commission somehow "lost" the result.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by Thinman
If the bottle was loaded...... then Pryor was loaded before he went to the ring (before the 1st round started)......... the 13th round thing, would have been just a "refill"

I asked a question long time ago... and I will ask it again... what drugs were available at that time (other than coca)..... drugs that could make somebody react like brand new.....

There was no urine test before or after the fight and Pryor didn't want the fight to be a 15rd fight...... He wanted a 12 rd fight..... If he took some sort of drug before the fight, or after the 2nd round as My2Sense states, it would have a chance to be in his system in the later rounds. I doubt any kind of drug ingested orally could have an effect fast enough to be beneficial if he took it after the 13th round. Only Popeye's spinach, snorting, shooting up, or maybe booty bumping could get there that fast. Actually, I don't think snorting or booty bumping would either.

That's not to say it wouldn't if he took it before the fight, and after the 2nd round. What ever he took after the 13th provided little more than minimal re hydration and confidence.

[JohnThomas1]

What ever he took after the 13th provided little more than minimal re hydration and confidence.

It may have also been an insurance for rounds 14 and 15, by which time it may have well been taking effect. Who knows.

[enquirer]

Believe me,oral speed is almost instantaneous in the right dose and makes you feel as strong as an ox whilst totally taking away your tiredness....

[la-califa]

There better question would be What if Pryor-Arguello had happened at 135? Then Arguello would have had the little extra" Juice" in HIS tank. IMO, Arguello would have had that little extra Pop in his punch & a little better stamina to edge Pryor.

[ThinBlack]

Pryor still would've won late, give or take a round, if there was truly nothing in the bottle.

[lufcrazy]

I don't see enough evidence to conclude their was a ped in the drink.

Is it suspicious? Sure it is. But condemning based on suspicion is something I try not to partake in.

P.s. Duodenum, that's a glorious summary of alexis's greatness. Combine that with how good he looks on film and the resume he amassed and there's a genuine argument about alexis being an elite atg.

[tommygun711]

Arguello by TKO. had he got to pryor earlier in the lower weights he would've stopped him.

[lufcrazy]

A match at lw would have been very close to call.

[KuRuPT]

The facts are these and indisputable...

Something besides WATER was in the bottle. I don't care if it was coffee or a vitamin C drink or sperm... Something besides was in there...

Second, his trainer was Panama Lewis.. Need I say more?

Lastly, ANYTHING besides water is Illegal... Thus making what he took illegal.

[El Bujia]

The facts are these and indisputable...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[MAG1965]

How do you feel it would have turned out if Aaron didn't get that extra "boost"?
I never thought much about it. It anything it was sugar water or something like that, which would only give him a little energy boost, but nothing big. I think he might have stopped him in 15 instead of 14.. But giving him a little boost in a long fight at the beginning of a round does help a little to get his momentum. But it would only help him a little.

[Shake]

Such a shame that such a beautiful fight was tainted. What if Pryor was on peds from the beginning, indeed? How could he not be, with this mountain of circumstantial evidence?

Pryor was incredibly good that night, and thus is how I find it. Incredible.

[KuRuPT]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I have a question for you... Do you believe what was in the bottle was just water and only water? If not, isn't the word illegal spot on?

[PowerPuncher]

Same result. Look I'll sell anyone a packet of Ephedrine tabs for cost price that I get them for (I buy them in bulk) and you can see for yourself how much they improve your performance - alternatively buy some online and see for yourself. Ephedrine is likely the asthma medicine that was in the bottle, as it is a PED in some ways. EPH won't make you capable of beating Arguello. They won't necessarily make you smash personal records in sports like running although personally I think it gives a small edge. They arguably impede performance especially if you take too much and if you take it too close to performing and I've felt like vomiting after running before taking ephedrine. I think it gives a small edge personally but if anyone wants to try it for themselves buy some online or from myself

[KuRuPT]

The point isn't WHAT was in the bottle or WHAT kind of edge it gave Pryor.. the point is ANYTHING BUT WATER in the bottle IS illegal and should be kept in mind when thinking of this fight and it's outcome.

[PowerPuncher]

The point isn't WHAT was in the bottle or WHAT kind of edge it gave Pryor.. the point is ANYTHING BUT WATER in the bottle IS illegal and should be kept in mind when thinking of this fight and it's outcome.

Well ok it was illegal, no disputing that, as was Hopkins headbutting Trinidad 20+ times, whenever Tito tried to get going he got butted. Technically Hopkins could and maybe should have been DQ'ed for that many intentional butts. Would he have won without the butts, Yes he would.

[El Bujia]

I have a question for you... Do you believe what was in the bottle was just water and only water? If not, isn't the word illegal spot on?Nah, I agree, it was def Red Bull.

[KuRuPT]

nice dodge

[El Bujia]

Who gives a shit? He was winning the fight either way. A simple sugar boost isn't going to make the difference between beating an all time great like Arguello. You have to be a phenomenal fighter to do what Pryor did, and that he was.

Besides, people totally overplay what happened in the 14th round. They act as though Pryor was gasping for breath after the 13th, ready to go, and then came blasting out of his corner from the get-go to stop Arguello at the beginning of the 14th. That isn't what happened at all.

He boxed the 14th the exact same way as he'd been doing, it was only after hurting Arguello with big shots about a minute or so in that he went for the kill, as any fighter would.

[lufcrazy]

Smoking weed is also illegal for a fighter but if I find out mayweather was high when he knocked out hatton i'm not gonna put any asterix next to the victory.

[KuRuPT]

Smoking weed is also illegal for a fighter but if I find out mayweather was high when he knocked out hatton i'm not gonna put any asterix next to the victory.

Odd you should post this Luf.. as I could easily find a post where you said the exact opposite less than a few months ago... I guess people can change their minds....

[TartanSoldier]

I agree the winner of the fight wouldn't have changed, even say Pryor doesn't get the KO he still gets a very wide decision although I remember seeing somewhere there was a few horseshit scorecards from the judges, sure it was on Legendary Nights, take that as you will guys.

[KuRuPT]

Who gives a shit? He was winning the fight either way. A simple sugar boost isn't going to make the difference between beating an all time great like Arguello. You have to be a phenomenal fighter to do what Pryor did, and that he was.

Besides, people totally overplay what happened in the 14th round. They act as though Pryor was gasping for breath after the 13th, ready to go, and then came blasting out of his corner from the get-go to stop Arguello at the beginning of the 14th. That isn't what happened at all.

He boxed the 14th the exact same way as he'd been doing, it was only after hurting Arguello with big shots about a minute or so in that he went for the kill, as any fighter would.

I don't disagree with some of what you said.. shoot most of what you said... The point is though, that he was shown drinking out of THAT bottle not just before the 14th round but earlier in the fight. So there are two instances that show him drinking that during the fight. Which then begs the question... if they were blatant enough to do it during the fight.. you believe it's not probable they did so before the fight in the dressing room? I believe it to be very probable it happened then two.. which again not only adds to the number of times.. but adds to the number of times doing something illegal during the fight, and most likely, before the fight. No?

[lufcrazy]

Odd you should post this Luf.. as I could easily find a post where you said the exact opposite less than a few months ago... I guess people can change their minds....

You certainly could and they certainly can.

I was of the opinion that anything illegal in any fight should cancel out the victory but the truth, as I see it now, is that anything performance enhancing should cancel out the victory.

For instance I count tyson's victory over golota and toney's over ruiz etc.

I wouldn't count mosley's over oscar in the rematch had he earned a decision.

There's not enough proof that whatever was, or wasn't, in the bottle was something that wouldn't enhance his performance.

[MagnaNasakki]

I'd say Pryor wins a split decision. He was winning the fight easy, other than the dirty pro-Arguello judge.

SOMETHING was unnatural in that rush coming out for the finish. I've never seen a guy steadily wear down(Watch Aaron in the first five vs the last 3. It's stark and plain to see that he's hitting some sort of wall) and come out like its the first. However, assuming there is something in that bottle, and I do, it still doesn't change that Alexis was, in general, getting the worst of it most of the fight. He had some ground to cover, and while I can envision him winning one or both of the last two, its just not enough time.

Aaron overwhelmed Alexis through questionable means, but he was winning the fight, and that can't be disputed.

[brickfists]

jesus christ WTF is wrong with all you guys ? cervantes dropped pryor so based on that theres no way in hell pryor couldve taken those straight rights from arguello over and over again but he did. which suggests to me there was something in the black bottle i mean its panama lewis for fucks sake.

without the black bottle alex knocks pryor out everytime they fight.

[lufcrazy]

jesus christ WTF is wrong with all you guys ? cervantes dropped pryor so based on that theres no way in hell pryor couldve taken those straight rights from arguello over and over again but he did. which suggests to me there was something in the black bottle i mean its panama lewis for fucks sake.

without the black bottle alex knocks pryor out everytime they fight.

:lol: