Congrats to vitali on comeback win....

[SuzieQ49]

Congrats to vitali on comeback win, peter was the first young genuine contender vitali has ever beaten....FINALLY...and congrats...he easily beat peter.


However....I was unimpressed by both fighters. vitali outclassed peter, but why was he fighting with his chin sticking out and hands at his waist so much? any decent fighter would have knocked vitali out. Vitali dictated the fight, made sam look foolish. His long punches easily found there mark on peter's head all night and easily outjabbed him. but vitali did not impresse me at all as being a special fighter.

sam was awful, i mean god awful. and worse..without injury he quits on his stool relinquishing his belt(what happened to the peter who fought ferociously vs wlad??) a true act of weakness and lack of mentally toughness in adversity.


but congrats to vitali on a big win after 4 year layoff....perhaps i was wrong about the new heavyweight division. its more watered down than I though.

[JohnThomas1]

Let me say this - you certainly liven the place up when you're about and posting

:good

[Mendoza]

Congrats to vitali on comeback win, peter was the first young genuine contender vitali has ever beaten....FINALLY...and congrats...he easily beat peter.


However....I was unimpressed by both fighters. vitali outclassed peter, but why was he fighting with his chin sticking out and hands at his waist so much? any decent fighter would have knocked vitali out. Vitali dictated the fight, made sam look foolish. but vitali did not impresse me at all as being a special fighter.

sam was awful, i mean god awful. and worse..without injury he quits on his stool relinquishing his belt(what happened to the peter who fought ferociously vs wlad??) a true act of weakness and lack of mentally toughness in adversity.


but congrats to vitali on a big win after 4 year layoff....perhaps i was wrong about the new heavyweight division. its more watered down than I though.

You don't get Vitali. He fights tall, he has good defense by moving his body and feet, good punch anticipation, he can block, and counter punch. All fighters have trouble hitting Vitali clean.

Ali had a low guard too.

I think Vitali showed plenty of skills tonight. No one, not even Toney who is a good boxer or Wlad who is great owned Peter like Vitali did.

You could try props without a negative spin.

[SteveO]

Peter the boxer isn't as much of a threat as Peter the brawler.

I thought he was going to take Vitali and his old broken down rusty body to the cleaners.

I was, of course, dead wrong.

[Marciano Frazier]

Your criticisms may have some validity (I haven't seen the fight yet, myself), but surely, saying "Any decent fighter would have knocked Vitali out" is going too far. And historically, it is my impression that Vitali utilizes height and range in such a manner that he knows what he's doing when his guard is low, and is really at little risk.

[OBCboxer]

You don't get Vitali. He fights tall, he has good defense by moving his body and feet, good punch anticipation, he can block, and counter punch. All fighters have trouble hitting Vitali clean.

Ali had a low guard too.

I think Vitali showed plenty of skills tonight. No one, not even Toney who is a good boxer or Wlad who is great owned Peter like Vitali did.

You could try props without a negative spin.

First, let's not compare Vitali to Ali who are two totally different fighters talent wise.

Second, Vitali destroyed Peter and I'll give him that. However, Peter was a different fighter on this noght than he was against Toney and Wlad. He seemed unmotivated and was grossly out of shape.

Third, Vitali himself was slow and looked old to me. It could be ring rust but he is thirty-seven years old now and by Boxing standards, that is old. His style was very bad as he is not fast enough to pull that off against someone young, fast and powerful like a David Haye. Vitali would have been beaten to the punch all night and eventually would have been stopped.

[Robbi]

Klitschko reminds of me Monzon in some ways. Not blazingly quick, awkward rhythm, accurate, and excellent when controlling the pace of a fight. Just a nightmare to look good against and damn hard to beat.

[SuzieQ49]

Naw Robbi, nice try but Naw. thats going too far. good job by klitschko though, he did what he needed to do. he outboxed peter at all angles. Monzon was not ackward, he was simply very patient and very smooth in his approach, never one to overexert himself. its sickening how many on here critisize monzons style(not saying you do)

[Russell]

You could try props without a negative spin.

You expect something actually level headed in regards to Wladimir or Vitali?

It'd be the same thing if Vitali had knocked him out clean in one. Over or under compensation. Take your pick, we would of gotten one or the other whether the fight ended in the first or the 12th.

Check who made this thread again. I'll be waiting. :lol:

[aj415]

Congrats to vitali on comeback win, peter was the first young genuine contender vitali has ever beaten....FINALLY...and congrats...he easily beat peter.


However....I was unimpressed by both fighters. vitali outclassed peter, but why was he fighting with his chin sticking out and hands at his waist so much? any decent fighter would have knocked vitali out. Vitali dictated the fight, made sam look foolish. His long punches easily found there mark on peter's head all night and easily outjabbed him. but vitali did not impresse me at all as being a special fighter.

sam was awful, i mean god awful. and worse..without injury he quits on his stool relinquishing his belt(what happened to the peter who fought ferociously vs wlad??) a true act of weakness and lack of mentally toughness in adversity.


but congrats to vitali on a big win after 4 year layoff....perhaps i was wrong about the new heavyweight division. its more watered down than I though.

I would wager that he was paid to take a beating or he wagered on Klitchko to TKO him in the round he quit!

[SuzieQ49]

You expect something actually level headed in regards to Wladimir or Vitali?


I don't know where anyone ever got the idea that I am against Wlad. I am a HUGE wladimir klitschko fan, my favorite heavyweight of the era, in fact I am making a great thread about him in the next couple days about the awesome 1990s wladimir klitschko. stay tuned.



Funny how this Russell dude, who likes to take pictures with his shirt off and post them in a forum like he's macho man(lol), critisizes my OPINION of the fight and abstracts from the part that I congratulated vitali numerous times and claimed he easily beat peter.

[Russell]

I'm sure you're aware of the fact that some "fans" are more detrimental to fighters then their most fervent detractors. Skewed and warped viewpoints abound on both sides.

And much as I know you'd love my sexy year and a half old pictures to be taken for just for you, I can assure you that they weren't. ;)

Nor do I flaunt the fact that I body build as you do your slap ass gung ho military adventures. I posted pictures in a thread expressly for pictures after being asked to.

Back to skewing reality as opposed to skewing what I said, Soozie Poo?

[Robbi]

Naw Robbi, nice try but Naw. thats going too far. good job by klitschko though, he did what he needed to do. he outboxed peter at all angles. Monzon was not ackward, he was simply very patient and very smooth in his approach, never one to overexert himself. its sickening how many on here critisize monzons style(not saying you do)


Klitschko reminds of me Monzon in some ways. Not blazingly quick, awkward rhythm, accurate, and excellent when controlling the pace of a fight. Just a nightmare to look good against and damn hard to beat.

[Loewe]

You don't get Vitali. He fights tall, he has good defense by moving his body and feet, good punch anticipation, he can block, and counter punch. All fighters have trouble hitting Vitali clean.

Ali had a low guard too.

I think Vitali showed plenty of skills tonight. No one, not even Toney who is a good boxer or Wlad who is great owned Peter like Vitali did.

You could try props without a negative spin.

Klitschko reminds of me Monzon in some ways. Not blazingly quick, awkward rhythm, accurate, and excellent when controlling the pace of a fight. Just a nightmare to look good against and damn hard to beat.

:good

I would wager that he was paid to take a beating or he wagered on Klitchko to TKO him in the round he quit!

Sorry but that´s poor.

[SuzieQ49]

The thing about body builders.......they all lack functional strength.

[Jack]

Second, Vitali destroyed Peter and I'll give him that. However, Peter was a different fighter on this noght than he was against Toney and Wlad. He seemed unmotivated and was grossly out of shape.I don't know how you can consider him out of shape. If you look at the weigh-in pictures, you can clearly see his stomach muscles. A lot of people think the guy is fat, because of his neck and face in pictures, yet every time he gets into the ring he is in fighting condition.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That isn't out of shape.

[BOGART]

Peter didn't look like the same fighter last night but the reason for that was Vitaly. He fought tall and Peter had no answer for that. The reason Peter looked good in the Toney rematch, Maskaev, Williams, and a few others is because of styles. Peter was able to get inside and land his big shots. That never happened last night because Vitaly wouldn't let him.

When you add it all up-the layoff, opponent, age, the beatdown in the ring, then I think this was a very big win for Vitaly. He deserves a lot of credit. I hope he sticks around for few more fights and this has to make you wonder what he could have done had he been injury free the last four years.

[punchy]

Peter at 257 stomach muscles or not was too heavy for his height in this fight. 235 would be a much better weight.

When do we get a new Dempsey or Louis to get rid of these slow giants.

[PowerPuncher]

Peter at 257 stomach muscles or not was too heavy for his height in this fight. 235 would be a much better weight.

When do we get a new Dempsey or Louis to get rid of these slow giants.

NOW, hes called David Haye :yep

Yep Peter was immobile at 257, he should be at 220, no 6'0 HW can carry that weight effectively, FFS Peter doesnt even hit that hard.

[radianttwilight]

I was impressed, too.

I think alot of Vitali's impressiveness was due to Peter sucking, but Klitschko definitely looked good in the ring. He held up his end of the bargain and came to win, and he did, impressively.

[OBCboxer]

I don't know how you can consider him out of shape. If you look at the weigh-in pictures, you can clearly see his stomach muscles. A lot of people think the guy is fat, because of his neck and face in pictures, yet every time he gets into the ring he is in fighting condition.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That isn't out of shape.

Yes, it is in his standards. He was fighting 10+ pounds over his normal fighting weight.

[Arka]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Growth Hormone gut?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Seamus]

Vitali fights exactly as he should given his immense assets and great athletic talent. He and his brother are on an absolute different plane than the current crop. And he has the mentality which sometimes Wlad lacks. No trainer would ever try to convince Vitali to fight hands high, bent forward with conventional footwork. It would take away those assets previously mentioned. And at 37, he is a phenom.

[Holmes' Jab]

The thing about body builders.......they all lack functional strength.


Great point. Hence why Frank Bruno never, ever really looked like a 'natural' fighter.

[radianttwilight]

Did anybody else think Vitali's punching technique last night was, at times, simply terrible?

I couldn't believe that Peter was just letting Vitali flail away with super-telegraphed arm punches...it looked like a young Foreman in there, minus the bonecrushing power.

[Drew101]

Taking everything into context, I'd say Vitali looked awfully good for someone who hadn't had a professional fight in four years, and was thirty seven. he put his punches together well, and utilised good ring movement to keep Peter at bay.

But...I've seen glaciers melt more quickly than Peter punched last night, and gave the impression of really not being interested in fighting at any point during the course of those eight rounds.

So, yeah...props to Klitschko, but let's see how he fares against a more stern form of resistance.

[Seamus]

You people simply do not understand that the rules of punching and defense that apply to a 6-foot man do not apply the same way to one who is 6-7. The taller man has more tangents of both offense and defense, more angles and use of distance. It does not require him to be- as most of us have been taught- elbow tight to ribs, guard high. That become a waste of energy. Hell, do look at classic Holmes performances. He broke more rules than he adhered to, but his style complimented his advantages.

[rekcutnevets]

Peter weighed 253 and 1/2 for Vitali. Peter has fought 7 times since December of 2005, and has weighed over 250lbs. all but once. Peter weighed 249 in his rematch with James Toney. Peter was 257 the first time he and Toney fought.

[Jack]

Yes, it is in his standards. He was fighting 10+ pounds over his normal fighting weight.He wasn't. He came in at 253lbs and his weight has around that since 2005. The lowest being 249lbs and the highest 257lbs. A few pounds either way for a guy who weighs that much isn't a big deal, I don't think.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Jack
He wasn't. He came in at 253lbs and his weight has around that since 2005. The lowest being 249lbs and the highest 257lbs. A few pounds either way for a guy who weighs that much isn't a big deal, I don't think.
Excellent post Jack. Did you read mine?

Look at the time on those posts, there's no way I gave you the idea to post that.

[JohnThomas1]

The thing about body builders.......they all lack functional strength.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is noway whatsoever you can bracket "all" on a myriad of levels. I'd like to see your exact anology of "bodybuilder" tho. Just a few points

They sure have more functional strength than before they started.

Many will already have excellent functional strength but do bodybuilding type weight training to enhance it and others area's.

Even pure training bodybuilders aim markedly at strength training - strong muscles are often big muscles as a whole.

As soon as i made noticable gains in size and strength my performance in all sports was improved, from golf to tennis to cricket to sparring and hitting the bag.

[AnthonyJ74]

[quote=Drew101]Taking everything into context, I'd say Vitali looked awfully good for someone who hadn't had a professional fight in four years, and was thirty seven. he put his punches together well, and utilised good ring movement to keep Peter at bay.

But...I've seen glaciers melt more quickly than Peter punched last night, and gave the impression of really not being interested in fighting at any point during the course of those eight rounds.

So, yeah...props to Klitschko, but let's see how he fares against a more stern form of resistance.[/quot/]

I think Sam Peter was a stern form of resistance for Vitali, especially considering how inactive and injury-laden he has been for the last four years. And the reason that Peter didn't appear to be all that good was because of Klitschko himself. He didn't let Peter get in close and land his big bombs. It was a bad style matchup for Peter, but he was still a very formidable opponent. Great win for Vitali!

[fists of fury]

You could try props without a negative spin.

It's difficlut to though, Mendoza. Peter's performance was just so poor that it's hard to simply ignore it.

As I said in another related thread, Peter must surely have made at least rudimentary preparations on dealing with Vitali's height and reach advantages...he must have had some gameplan. Yet, he was lethargic, slow and seemed completely at a loss. He seemed to lack any sort of strategy whatsoever.
His corner was equally poor. They kept throwing out obvious observations like "you have to fight him". No shit, Sherlock.

If Peter had made a decent fight out of it, it would be a lot easier to give Vitali due credit.
Was Vitali that good or Peter that bad? The truth lies somewhere in between, methinks.

[PowerPuncher]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is noway whatsoever you can bracket "all" on a myriad of levels. I'd like to see your exact anology of "bodybuilder" tho. Just a few points

They sure have more functional strength than before they started.

Many will already have excellent functional strength but do bodybuilding type weight training to enhance it and others area's.

Even pure training bodybuilders aim markedly at strength training - strong muscles are often big muscles as a whole.

As soon as i made noticable gains in size and strength my performance in all sports was improved, from golf to tennis to cricket to sparring and hitting the bag.

Actually allot of bodybuilding builds muscle that is P4P not as effective, dynamic or athletic. Also building excessive muscle takes more oxygen to maintain and hence a fighter while tire much faster with more muscle. There are exercises that build functional and explosive strength but many boxers dont know how to utilise these properly.

Peter is clearly another case of a HW boxer with useless muscle

[JohnThomas1]

Actually allot of bodybuilding builds muscle that is P4P not as effective, dynamic or athletic. Also building excessive muscle takes more oxygen to maintain and hence a fighter while tire much faster with more muscle. There are exercises that build functional and explosive strength but many boxers dont know how to utilise these properly.

Peter is clearly another case of a HW boxer with useless muscle

Functional sports specific muscle and strength can easily be targeted tho. Holyfield would be a good example of building up quite effectively for the target sport. Tiger Woods has worked wonders in the weight room golf specific. He's actually woken the tour up in this regard. Obviously it's important to take in endurance needs as you highlight.

Peter is an interesting study. His inadequacies may have been highlighted vs Vitali, but he's still reasonably successful. I think it's skill and ability holding him back vs the Klit's, big muscle, functional or not isn't going to get anyone home when they are two or three tiers below their opponent in ability.

[PowerPuncher]

Functional sports specific muscle and strength can easily be targeted tho. Holyfield would be a good example of building up quite effectively for the target sport. Tiger Woods has worked wonders in the weight room golf specific. He's actually woken the tour up in this regard. Obviously it's important to take in endurance needs as you highlight.

Peter is an interesting study. His inadequacies may have been highlighted vs Vitali, but he's still reasonably successful. I think it's skill and ability holding him back vs the Klit's, big muscle, functional or not isn't going to get anyone home when they are two or three tiers below their opponent in ability.

Peter has always been lethargic and 'huffing and puffing' type

Exactly weights can be a great addition as part of training but not as a substitute for old school training. BUT the right exercises must be done with the focus on strength and explosivity

Anyway as for Peter being proven/successful with his method, lets see:

Wlad - lost every round except for the KD rounds

Toney - 38 Very overweight Past prime 5'9 ex middleweight who still rightfully won the first fight

Maskeev - 37yo innactive past prime B Level chinny operator

McCline - past prime bodybuilder flaws him 3 times.

Audley Harrison - lost in the olympics to Big Aud

He hasnt faced any other contenders

[OLD FOGEY]

You don't get Vitali. He fights tall, he has good defense by moving his body and feet, good punch anticipation, he can block, and counter punch. All fighters have trouble hitting Vitali clean.

Ali had a low guard too.

I think Vitali showed plenty of skills tonight. No one, not even Toney who is a good boxer or Wlad who is great owned Peter like Vitali did.

You could try props without a negative spin.

You have been perhaps Vitali's staunchest defender on this board and I think the Peter fight largely vindicated your high judgement of him.

I am impressed by Vitali's boxing skills, which are exceptional for a man at the top echelon of size in the heavyweight division. Most big heavyweights in history were marginal boxers.

Vitali does not appear to me to be quite the puncher that his 35 ko's in 38 fights would imply. He scores his knockouts by wearing his men down. I have not seen much evidence of the explosive power of a Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman, or Tyson despite Vitali's gaudy ko percentage.

The tragedy is that because Vitali will never fight Wlad, the one man who could really test him, we may never know how good he is. His failures against Lewis and Byrd will probably keep him out of the top 20 unless he still has it in him to put together an impressive run, including Valuev and Haye.

[AnthonyJ74]

You have been perhaps Vitali's staunchest defender on this board and I think the Peter fight largely vindicated your high judgement of him.

I am impressed by Vitali's boxing skills, which are exceptional for a man at the top echelon of size in the heavyweight division. Most big heavyweights in history were marginal boxers.

Vitali does not appear to me to be quite the puncher that his 35 ko's in 38 fights would imply. He scores his knockouts by wearing his men down. I have not seen much evidence of the explosive power of a Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman, or Tyson despite Vitali's gaudy ko percentage.

The tragedy is that because Vitali will never fight Wlad, the one man who could really test him, we may never know how good he is. His failures against Lewis and Byrd will probably keep him out of the top 20 unless he still has it in him to put together an impressive run, including Valuev and Haye.

I don't see how the Chris Byrd fight could keep Vitali from a high all-time ranking. Vitali was dominating Chris Byrd and had won almost every round; he quit due to a shoulder injury which later required surgery. It would have been stupid for Vitali to keep fighting with an injury that could have turned into a career-ender.

As for the Lewis fight, Vitali fought a close, competitive fight with Lewis, and the fight was stopped on cuts. There's no shame in a guy losing a fight like Vitali did to Lewis.

[Jack]

Excellent post Jack. Did you read mine?

Look at the time on those posts, there's no way I gave you the idea to post that.
Haha, nah I'm just a really slow typer!

Great minds think alike though :good

[OLD FOGEY]

I don't see how the Chris Byrd fight could keep Vitali from a high all-time ranking. Vitali was dominating Chris Byrd and had won almost every round; he quit due to a shoulder injury which later required surgery. It would have been stupid for Vitali to keep fighting with an injury that could have turned into a career-ender.

As for the Lewis fight, Vitali fought a close, competitive fight with Lewis, and the fight was stopped on cuts. There's no shame in a guy losing a fight like Vitali did to Lewis.

You make good points, but the bottom line is he lost to the two best fighters he fought.

[Arka]

Vitali reminds me a bit of Oscar Bonavena...Maybe it's the crude effectiveness of their styles or the way they throw their right hands.

Wlad makes me think of a young Mac Foster.Brilliant orthodox and balanced puncher-but slightly vulnerable to pressure.

[Seamus]

I don't see how the Chris Byrd fight could keep Vitali from a high all-time ranking. Vitali was dominating Chris Byrd and had won almost every round; he quit due to a shoulder injury which later required surgery. It would have been stupid for Vitali to keep fighting with an injury that could have turned into a career-ender.

I seem to remember a certain champion in the 1910's who quit during a title defense due to an arm injury and not only escaped with the belt but with a draw. Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.

[Arka]

I seem to remember a certain champion in the 1910's who quit during a title defense due to an arm injury and not only escaped with the belt but with a draw. Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Well he didn't exactly quit.Who are you referring to?

[OLD FOGEY]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Well he didn't exactly quit.Who are you referring to?

Yes. There seems to be some sort of spin that Jack Johnson quit, but I have never seen a primary source which says that the fight was scheduled for more than ten rounds. He lasted the distance and got a draw.

This is from Ring Magazine, March 1930:

Dan McKetrick, manager of Frank Moran who was at ringside, quoted on this fight--

"Don't let anyone tell you Johnson didn't have plenty of heart. He proved it to me one night in Paris, France, and proved it convincingly. I never questioned his courage again.
"Johnson, that night, was fighting Battling Jim Johnson, an American negro, who was all arms like Elbows McFadden. In the second round Johnson let go with a hook. His forearm must have landed right on Battling Jim's elbow for Jack's arm was broken twice, awful.
"With his title at stake, Jack Johnson kept on fighting and earned a draw with one hand. When he got back to the dressing room, he fainted dead away from pain. The doctor who set the arm wouldn't believe Johnson had fought with it. 'It is not possible for a man to stand such pain,' he said.
"So never think Jack Johnson didn't have heart aplenty."

[janitor]

I seem to remember a certain champion in the 1910's who quit during a title defense due to an arm injury and not only escaped with the belt but with a draw. Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.

Johnson lasted the distance aganst Jim Johnson to salvage his title with his arm broken in two places. Far from being a mark against his heart this bout should be held up in suport of it.

Of course Jim Johnson might have won by decision under diferent contract terms.