Vitali Klitschko vs Joe Louis

[Woddy]

I take Vitali.

[PowerPuncher]

Hands down, and relatively slow hands against Louis = KO4-6 for Joe. Would look like the Max Baer fight. Louis would get Vitali where he wanted him, and throw those brutally fast combinations to tee off on that chin that Vitali carry's too high

[Joe E]

The Klit may have a chance if he tags Louis enough with the right.I expect Louis would get knocked down with it. However the Klit is to slow{maybe slower then Carnera} to get out of Joes way. Although he does take a better punch then Primo., I think Louis KOs him by the 10th.

[Ramon Rojo]

Vitali would win easily

[Russell]

Could go either way, being fair to both.

Think about the ungodly beatings from Baer's took from Louis, and how Vitali fights taller and uses his reach and height advantges more then either. You'd imagine he could take similar amounts of punishment at the least and land some of his own considerable firepower in return.

Louis can break that chin, though.

[Holmes' Jab]

Louis stops him mid-late rounds.

[Loewe]

Vitali´s biigest assets in this fight would be his size, reach, chin, power and awkwardness. How would Joe Louis deal with it?
- size and reach: Louis fought two similar sized capable fighters in PRimo Carnera and Buddy Baer and beat them both.
- chin: we all know what damage Joe´s combination´s could do, he could hurt Vitali.
- power: Louis could be hurt and knocked down but it was very hard to stop. Only Max Schmeling was able to do so and he needed dozens of his right hands to do so - remember Gunboat Smith said Schmeling had the shortest, hardest right hand he ever saw and he saw them all from Jeffries to Liston. I doubt Vitali would be able to copy this achievement.
- awkwardness: Joe Louis beat a great fighter with a similar low guard style in Jack Sharkey.

So, Joe could handle every single asset Vitali could bring to the table. Could Vitali do the same? Vitali never fought a combination puncher like Louis, he never fought a fighter who was as precise, as powerful or as fast as him. I doubt he could do anything against that.

My take: Louis TKO7-9 Vitali

The staredown would be great :twisted:

[Mendoza]

Without making a pick that will hurt feelings, Joe Louis had style match up with good boxers types. Watch the films or read the news papers, because its true.

Louis was not a dynamic close the gap type of fighter like Frazier or Tyson was. He was a methodical shuffle in behind the jab fighter who once he got into a comfortable range unleashed a fury. Sure stiffs who could not jab, did not think much and got caught on the ropes ( Something that Vitlai is clearly not ) were axed by Louis.

Vitlai would own Louis from the outside, has better foot speed, and better reach. And he hits a lot harder and takes a much better punch than the boxers ( Farr, Godoy, Pastor, Walcott, Conn ) who gave Louis a lot of trouble and likely beat him twice as a group on fair score cards.

[Loewe]

Vitlai would own Louis from the outside, has better foot speed, and better reach. And he hits a lot harder and takes a much better punch than the boxers ( Farr, Godoy, Pastor, Walcott, Conn ) who gave Louis a lot of trouble and likely beat him twice as a group on fair score cards.

Vitali isn´t anywhere as good as the mentioned names in terms of ability or footwork. And he has not faster foot than Louis. Carnera had a faster jab than Vitali and Louis was able to get into range, he would do the same with the slow jab of Vitali.

[Mendoza]

Vitali isn´t anywhere as good as the mentioned names in terms of ability or footwork. And he has not faster foot than Louis. Carnera had a faster jab than Vitali and Louis was able to get into range, he would do the same with the slow jab of Vitali.

Baloney. When you're 6'8", don't expect the guy too look like a light weight. However, Vitlai covers a lot of ground in a hurry. Other fighters can't seem to close the gap with him, or get past his jab.

Vitali excels at keeping his best range.

Vitlai also has a good defense built upon fighting tall, top punch anticipation, leaning sideways, backwards, or taking a quick step back. He probably spends the least amount of time on the ropes as any heavyweight champion I've ever seen.

When the other guy misses or doesn't have the angle, Vitlai counters.

Even Showtimes annoucers gave mention of Vitlai's movement and use of angles at age 37.

Carnera was old as dirt when Louis beat him, was not known for taking a good punch. The example is poor. Vitlai is a good boxer puncher type. Use the matches that Louis fought vs boxers here which I mentioned above for a fair guess, not examples where Louis cleaned up on older fighters or guys who were stiff and lacked skills.

[Holmes' Jab]

When the other guy misses or doesn't have the angle, Vitlai coutners.

Even Showtimes annoucers gave mention of Vitlai's movement and use of angles at age 37.




As did Walcott at that age moreso, he was definitely a better fighter than Vitali too. Conn, Farr and Godoy sure aren't worlds away from Vitali either ability-wise.

[Holmes' Jab]

An out of shape, past his best Lennox stopped Vilati: why can't a peak Louis who'll be much busier and is a better combination puncher (for my money the best in the divisions history).

[Mendoza]

As did Walcott at that age moreso, he was definitely a better fighter than Vitali too. Conn, Farr and Godoy sure aren't worlds away from Vitali either ability-wise.
Walcott at his best had pound for pound skills, but he was not a better heavyweight / more formidable heavyweight. Wlacott was chinny, and unlike Vitlai did not always fight smart. Yet he took Louis to town in both fights, and had the second fight in the bag until he got cute, and caught. PArt of this was styles, which is what I am talking about.

If Conn could stagger Louis, and Farr could do the same...Farr pretty much going toe to toe, Vitlai could do more since he is much bigger, hits much harder, and has much greater range.

[Loewe]

Baloney. When you're 6'8", don't expect the guy too look like a light weight. However, Vitlai covers a lot of ground in a hurry. Other fighters can't seem to close the gap with him, get past his jab. Vitlai also has a great defense built upon fightign tall, leaning sideways, backwards, or taking a quick step back. He probably spends the least amount of time on the ropes as any heavyweight champion I've ever seen.

When the other guy misses or doesn't have the angle, Vitlai coutners.

Even Showtimes annoucers gave mention of Vitlai's movement and use of angles at age 37.

Carnera was old as dirt when Louis beat him, was not known for taking a good punch. The example is poor. Vitlai is a good boxer pucnher type. Use the matches that Louis fought vs boxers here which I mentioned above for a fiar guess, not examples where Louis cleanred up on older fighters or skilless stiffs.

:-( you are so biased it´s not funny anymore.

I used Carnera as an example of how Louis would go by a jab of a man similar in size to Vitali. And Carnera had a faster and imo better jab than Vitali, Louis avoided it quite well. Therefore I don´t see Louis having problems avoiding Vitali´s too. Slow fighters with poor boxing ability like Sanders, Williams or Peter may have trouble getting by Vitali´s jab but not a Joe Louis. :bart
Vitali has good footwork but he is not fast on his feets. Yeah, he throws punches from many angles but most of those punchers are arm-punches without much power - even his jab is sometimes.
Joe Louis has proven himself to get to anybody to unleash his combinations, yeah boxers with fast feets fighting defensivly trouble him but I canßt see how this description fits for Vitali. In fact Vitali would come forward himself making it even easier for Joe to get in range.

Can´t see how an unproven fighter like Vitali can be picked about somebody like Joe Louis. Yeah, he would pose some problems but nevertheless he would be beaten.

[Holmes' Jab]

If Conn could stagger Louis, and Farr could do the same...Farr pretty much going toe to toe, Vitlai could do more since he is much bigger, hits much harder, and has much greater range.


If a 38 year old, past peak Lennox could tear Vitali up on the inside, fuck knows what a prime 20-odd year old Louis would do. :hey

[janitor]

I have to say that I was more than impressed by Vitally Klitschkos demolition of Sam Peter which was a masterfull display. It is not lost on me that I did not think that he could recover his previous form and picked Peter to beat him.

It is important to note however that Peter is the best fighter Vitally Klitschko has beaten to date by a substantial margin.

He isnt ready for Louis just yet.

[Holmes' Jab]

It was a good display, but Peter was as poor as Vitasli was impressive. In a way Vitali made him look so I suppose.

[Minotauro]

Louis by mid round stoppage, Vitali is good but he hasn't shown anything to say he would beat Louis.

[Mendoza]

:-( you are so biased it´s not funny anymore.

I used Carnera as an example of how Louis would go by a jab of a man similar in size to Vitali. And Carnera had a faster and imo better jab than Vitali, Louis avoided it quite well. Therefore I don´t see Louis having problems avoiding Vitali´s too. Slow fighters with poor boxing ability like Sanders, Williams or Peter may have trouble getting by Vitali´s jab but not a Joe Louis. :bart

Vitali has good footwork but he is not fast on his feets. Yeah, he throws punches from many angles but most of those punchers are arm-punches without much power - even his jab is sometimes.

Joe Louis has proven himself to get to anybody to unleash his combinations, yeah boxers with fast feets fighting defensivly trouble him but I canßt see how this description fits for Vitali. In fact Vitali would come forward himself making it even easier for Joe to get in range.

Can´t see how an unproven fighter like Vitali can be picked about somebody like Joe Louis. Yeah, he would pose some problems but nevertheless he would be beaten.

What is funny is your analysis. A few things for the open minded who want to learn:

Carnera was washed up when he meet Louis. Louis pounded on a guy not known for taking a good punch for six rounds. How shot was Primo? The next quality fighter Carnera fought who was well below Louis in ability stopped in him half the amount of time Louis did.

Carnera had a faster and better jab than Vitali? Get a clue. Vitlai's jab was MUCH better and faster.

I see you called Corrie Sanders a slow fighter. Why I am not surprised.

Vitlai is not sucker. He keeps his range. He rarely if ever walks into to punches. At least see Vitlai has good footwork, faster than Louis does for sure.

In this fight, Louis would have to get past Vitlai's long jab and right hand to score, other wise he cannot win, so who is going to walk into something?

Think about that, oh wait your not good at being objective or thinking.

No need to go on much further, but if you want to debate me on what is on and not on films we can both see, just let me know :)

[janitor]

Carnera was washed up when he meet Louis.

There is no evidence to suggest this.

[Marciano Frazier]

Carnera was old as dirt when Louis beat him, was not known for taking a good punch. The example is poor.
Hard to believe Carnera was even able to climb between the ropes at the positively venerable age of 28, an entire year after he lost the title.

Vitlai is a good boxer puncher type. Use the matches that Louis fought vs boxers here which I mentioned above for a fair guess, not examples where Louis cleaned up on older fighters or guys who were stiff and lacked skills.
Vitali is a good boxer-puncher for a 6'8", 245-pound heavyweight. Comparing him to guys like Jersey Joe Walcott and Arturo Godoy on that grounds is a little ridiculous, arguably moreso than comparing him to Carnera on the grounds that they were both large and world-class. For all his admittedly-impressive skills, Vitali is stiff. He's not a flexible, shifty, fleet-footed mover like a Billy Conn or Jersey Joe Walcott. He can outmaneuever lead-footed opponents like Samuel Peter and Danny Williams, but he's certainly not about to lead a tap-dancing show. Vitali wouldn't be able to stick-and-move Louis or somesuch. Compared with a speedy, shifty 190-pounder, he virtually stands still in there. This isn't to say that his combination of imposing size with legitimate skill, durability and relative coordination wouldn't pose a serious threat to Louis; I don't doubt that it would. But Vitali Klitschko is not about to pull a Jersey Joe Walcott on Louis by any stretch of the imagination.

[Marciano Frazier]

Carnera was washed up when he meet Louis. Louis pounded on a guy not known for taking a good punch for six rounds. How shot was Primo? The next quality fighter Carnera fought who was well below Louis in ability stopped in him half the amount of time Louis did.
No, the next quality fighter Carnera faced was Walter Neusel, in his next fight after Louis, which he won by fourth-round TKO. Neusel was 43-3-5 going into this fight, and he beat guys like Tommy Loughran, Larry Gains and Max Schmeling. Carnera had won his last four fights since losing the title, and went on to win his next four afterwards. There isn't any clear evidence that he was declining until close to a year after the Louis fight.

I see you called Corrie Sanders a slow fighter. Why I am not surprised.
For what it's worth, Sanders was in terrible shape for this fight and was, in fact, very slow after about the second round, in which he began breathing out of his mouth and resting on the ropes.

[teeto]

Louis imo

[Mendoza]

Marciano Frazier: Hard to believe Carnera was even able to climb between the ropes at the positively venerable age of 28, an entire year after he lost the title.

Hold on. Carnera had 89 fights before he meet Louis, and because da' Prime was never known for defense he took a lot of leather. Carnera fought Louis in 1935. From 1936-1937, Carnera had 5 fights, and he was 2 wins, 3 losses, and KO'd two times. Carnera hung up the gloves for years in 1937 at age 31. He was in decline before he fought Louis. You could argue the beating Max Baer gave Carnera pushed Carnera over the hill



Vitali is a good boxer-puncher for a 6'8", 245-pound heavyweight. Comparing him to guys like Jersey Joe Walcott and Arturo Godoy on that grounds is a little ridiculous

You're right. Vitlai is far more dominant in the ring than either Walcott or Godoy, who lest we forget dropped decisions to journeyman or fringe contender types. And speak of Godoy and Walcott, I have seen all there is to see on the 4 fights, and Joe Louis should be 2-2 vs them.

Vitali wouldn't be able to stick-and-move Louis or somesuch. Compared with a speedy, shifty 190-pounder, he virtually stands still in there. This isn't to say that his combination of imposing size with legitimate skill, durability and relative coordination wouldn't pose a serious threat to Louis;

Why not? Louis was a predictable shuffler, Marciano_Frazier. Louis had perhaps the slowest feet of any ATG heavyweight, and was not on balance always either. Louis was the type who needed to set his feet to deliver bombs. Vitlai would tower over Louis, own roughly a 6” height and a 4"’ reach advantage. Louis is not wining a boxing contest here. The question remains, is Louis fast enough to get angles on Vitlai. Based on what I have seen on film, I do not see that happening too often. Louis low guard and so-so defense also means he's going to get hit a lot from Vitlai.


I don't doubt that it would. But Vitali Klitschko is not about to pull a Jersey Joe Walcott on Louis by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe a Max Schemling then. Seriously, this is not an easy fight for Louis. Once again, in the ring, Vitlai dominance on the score cards dwarf's Walcott, and is better than Louis'. Guys like Tommy Farr won 6-7 rounds vs a prime Louis. Can this board watch the films and be truthful?

[janitor]

Hold on. Carnera had 89 fights before he meet Louis, and because da' Prime was never known for defense he took a lot of leather. Carnera fought Louis in 1935. From 1936-1937, Carnera had 5 fights, and he was 2 wins, 3 losses, and KO'd two times. Carnera hung up the gloves for years in 1937 at age 31. He was in decline before he fought Louis. You could argue the beating Max Baer gave Carnera pushed Carnera over the hill


You could argue all these things but they are speculative at best.

[teeto]

Mendoza i totally agree this is very hard for Joe. Im actually a Vitali fan somewhat, i really like him, always have, i truthfuly say im not biased towards any fighters though i believe. I do have to pick Louis ultimately sorry, call me what you will for that! Kidding, but Vitali certainly has some ring presence, and a chin aswell, a very good one. Louis winning this takes something special i think.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza says:Hold on. Carnera had 89 fights before he meet Louis, and because da' Prime was never known for defense he took a lot of leather. Carnera fought Louis in 1935. From 1936-1937, Carnera had 5 fights, and he was 2 wins, 3 losses, and KO'd two times. Carnera hung up the gloves for years in 1937 at age 31. He was in decline before he fought Louis. You could argue the beating Max Baer gave Carnera pushed Carnera over the hill

[quote=janitor]You could argue all these things but they are speculative at best.

ALL? Ok I will read your reply.

1 ) Fact Carnera already had 89 fights, give or take say 3 more that history missed out on before he fought Louis.

2 ) Fact, Carnera fought Louis in 1935. In 1936-1937, Canera was 2-3, with 2 KO losses, and lost a decsion to a real no-name.

3 ) Fact. Carnera did retire in 1937.

4 ) Debatable. Baer's beating on Carnera signaled his decline.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza i totally agree this is very hard for Joe. Im actually a Vitali fan somewhat, i really like him, always have, i truthfuly say im not biased towards any fighters though i believe. I do have to pick Louis ultimately sorry, call me what you will for that! Kidding, but Vitali certainly has some ring presence, and a chin aswell, a very good one. Louis winning this takes something special i think.

Thanks. For the record I'm fine with any pick within reason. I just see too many false hoods, and and lack of understanding on how styles makes fights on some of the stuff written in this thread.

[Bummy Davis]

I like Louis by a UD unless Vitali cuts. I think Vitali with his awkward style would be trouble for Louis and his power is no joke but Louis was the best combo puncher and he had a great jab also. Vitali would have to keep his hands a lot higher to gaurd his chin than he did vs Peter and I see it as a close UD 15 for Louis

[SuzieQ49]

Vitali would win easily

:lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Carnera was old as dirt when Louis beat him


Carnera was 28

[SuzieQ49]

Carnera was washed up when he meet Louis. Louis pounded on a guy not known for taking a good punch for six rounds. How shot was Primo? The next quality fighter Carnera fought who was well below Louis in ability stopped in him half the amount of time Louis did.

Carnera was in his prime when he fought louis. carnera was 22-1 in his last 23 fights going into the louis fight. Carnera was the # 2 rated heavyweight in the world and was 28 years old. He was at the peak of his career.....coming off a victory's over 6'10 240lb ray impelliteiree and 6'9 280lb victorio campolo. right after the louis fight he knocked out top 10 contender 43-3 walter neusal a VERY solid fighter. It was the horrible beating louis gave to carnera that RUINED carnera.


ps leroy Haynes was a very dangerous puncher, and top 10 guy too. haynes was in line for a title shot vs louis.

[SuzieQ49]

You could argue the beating Max Baer gave Carnera pushed Carnera over the hill




what beating? carnera was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage. he outboxed baer all night long.

[Loewe]

What is funny is your analysis. A few things for the open minded who want to learn:

Oh boy, you are one of the most arrogant posters on here. A little bit humbleness would do you good.

Carnera was washed up when he meet Louis. Louis pounded on a guy not known for taking a good punch for six rounds. How shot was Primo? The next quality fighter Carnera fought who was well below Louis in ability stopped in him half the amount of time Louis did.

So, a fighter who si on a 22-1 winning streak, 28 years old going on to beat a top10 fighters - who at best was ranked number 4 in the world - is shot? Yeah, for sure. :blood

Carnera had a faster and better jab than Vitali? Get a clue. Vitlai's jab was MUCH better and faster.

Nope he has not. Vitali is slow, slow, slow. His jab is awkward because it´s a mix of an uppercut, hook and a jab but it´s not fast and it also is often only pawed. Both would be exposed by a fighter like Louis.

I see you called Corrie Sanders a slow fighter. Why I am not surprised.

Yeah, Sanders is slow. He has fast hands for a man his size but overall he is slow.

Vitlai is not sucker. He keeps his range. He rarely if ever walks into to punches. At least see Vitlai has good footwork, faster than Louis does for sure.

Never said he is. You know, I live in Germany, I followed the career of both Klitschko´s since they stepped their feet into a ring over here. I watched every single fight of them. I like them both. They are very good for the sport and the beside DLH the biggest names in boxing nowadays. But you have to be objective.
Vitali has good footwork and fast feet for his size. But it is not as good as Louis and he is slower. Yeah, Vitali is good at using his size but Louis beat man of similar size rather easily. Like I wrote in my first post, his reach and size are two of his assets but Louis is known to overcome such assets.

In this fight, Louis would have to get past Vitlai's long jab and right hand to score, other wise he cannot win, so who is going to walk into something?

Yeah, he has to but it is not as hard as you make it seem. Vitali´s jab is slow even compared to Carnera´s not to mention that of a Conn or a Godoy. And Louis had not so many problems going by these jabs. Add that Vitali often paws with it and it´s obvious what happens more often than not. There would still be the right hand, okay, but don´t you think Louis could avoid telegraphed punches like that? I´m sure he can. Not always but most of the time and I can´t see Vitali who never fought a fighter who is even close in ability to Joe Louis surviving this.

Think about that, oh wait your not good at being objective or thinking.

Ah, the arrogance again ... I think you need some of this :rasta

No need to go on much further, but if you want to debate me on what is on and not on films we can both see, just let me know :)

No need or just not able to? See, I can be arrogant too :tong

[Loewe]

ALL? Ok I will read your reply.

1 ) Fact Carnera already had 89 fights, give or take say 3 more that history missed out on before he fought Louis.

2 ) Fact, Carnera fought Louis in 1935. In 1936-1937, Canera was 2-3, with 2 KO losses, and lost a decsion to a real no-name.

3 ) Fact. Carnera did retire in 1937.

4 ) Debatable. Baer's beating on Carnera signaled his decline.


Fact:
Carnera won 22 of his last 23.
Carnera won his next fight against a Top10 opponent.

[Loewe]

Thanks. For the record I'm fine with any pick within reason. I just see too many false hoods, and and lack of understanding on how styles makes fights on some of the stuff written in this thread.

I never said Vitali has no chance in there. Read my first post, I wrote that Vitali has a live chance meaning a chance between 20 and 40%.

[SuzieQ49]

Lowe, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink it.

[Ezzard]

Vitali is underrated in a head-to-head sense. I think he'd be a handful for anyone. It's a real shame injuries kept him out of the sport. I think he had the potential to be a great. Shame he wasn't around in the 90s era. I think he'd have lived with the big 4 HWs...

But, Joe Louis? Come on... Louis wins, surely that's obvious?

[kenmore]

As good as Vitali is, I don't think Vitali would have stood a chance against Joe "Louis, who was one of history's very, very best heavyweights. Just watch Louis's films...the man was absolutely incredible.

For us Klitschko fans it's a great thing that Vitali has established what an excellent fighter he is. But let's not get carried away. He is not in the same league as Louis.

As to how Vitali-Louis would go, I'm sure Vitali would give Joe lots of trouble. This is because of Vitali's cagey use of his height, reach, defensive acumen and power. Probably Vitali would have Louis on the deck once or twice.

But Louis was superior to Vitali in every respect aside from size and durability. Eventually Joe's powerful, laser-beam left jab and devastating rights and left hooks would find their mark. When this happened, Vitali would be on his way to a brutal kayo defeat.

I say Louis struggles in this fight, but wins decisively by stoppage somewhere between the middle to late rounds. Vitali is a brave but bloodied mess when the bout is finished.

[kenmore]

I never said Vitali has no chance in there. Read my first post, I wrote that Vitali has a live chance meaning a chance between 20 and 40%.

I can see where you are coming from. Certainly Vitali was better than Max Schmeling, the Baer Brothers, and anyone else Louis fought in his prime. In this fight, there is always the very distant chance that an upset would occur.

Still, I think the great Louis was just too good to lose to Vitali.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Louis by the 6th rd by KO after handing out a beating to the slow Vitali Klitschko. Vitali Klitschko is the second coming of Jess Willard as I have said for years now. If you take out the film of Willard vs Johnson and watch the whole fight or as much as you can see. What you will see is a
direct copy of Willard when looking at Vitali Klitschko and after 45 yrs of watching Willard on film I recognized the style right off the bat as he is a copy of Jess Willard right down to the hands down lean-back style, standing as straight up as possilble to make it hard to get hit in the head without reaching for him and if you do you leave yourself open for a counter right-hand. The style worked well for Willard untill he got old and over-confident
against Jack Dempsey and that was his down fall. Klitschko could have been beaten this last weekend if not for a trainer that should never be allowed to train a fighter again as he knew nothing about how to train a fighter in tactics to win a fight. Peter`s trainer did everything a guy could do to make his fighter lose except hit him in the corner with a baseball bat. ( and I mean hit his own fighter Peter with the ballbat ) He sent him out to get the hell beat out of him standing straight up taking punch after punch instead of training Peter to use his height difference to his advantage by fighting Klitschko out of a crouch making him hard to hit and rushing Klitschko to the inside and forcing him to the ropes where at short range Klitschko can`t use his height and reach to his advantage. Peter would then use the 37 yr old
Klitschko who hadn`t had a fight in almost 4 yrs as a heavy bag tearing his
body down and maybe breaking his short ribs. The whole point is to take his legs from him and make Klitschko fight on the defensive instead of on the offensive. TO MAKE IT SHORT PETER`S TRAINER WAS AN IDIOT AND GOT HIS FIGHTER AND ASS WHIPPING HE DIDN`T NEED TO TAKE. LOUIS ON THE OTHER HAND WOULD BE WAY TO FAST AND GOOD FOR THE SLOW KLITSCHKO. YOU DON`T THINK KLITSCHKO LOOKS SLOW BECAUSE HE`S FIGHTING A FIGHTER THAT IS EVEN SLOWER THAN HE IS (PETER).
IF HE EVER FIGHTS DAVID HAYE YOU SEE REALLY HOW SLOW HE IS.

[janitor]

1 ) Fact Carnera already had 89 fights, give or take say 3 more that history missed out on before he fought Louis.


Yes fact.

That dose not necisarily mean that he was shot.

[QUOTE]
2 ) Fact, Carnera fought Louis in 1935. In 1936-1937, Canera was 2-3, with 2 KO losses, and lost a decsion to a real no-name.


That was a year later.

After the Louis fight Carnera beat Walter Neusell who was highly regarded.

An active fighter can easily fall apart over a period of a year or two.


3 ) Fact. Carnera did retire in 1937.


He was right to.


4 ) Debatable. Baer's beating on Carnera signaled his decline.


It might have but you could equaly argue that the Louis beating signaled his decline.

He didnt loose between the two fights and posted a good win after the Louis fight.

[The Kurgan]

An active fighter can easily fall apart over a period of a year or two.

...



It might have but you could equaly argue that the Louis beating signaled his decline.


My thoughts exactly. If there's a point Carnera starts to drop off the edge, it's after Louis: slowly, to be sure, but until then there is NO evidence that Carnera was even past his prime.

[TommyV]

Without making a pick that will hurt feelings, Joe Louis had style match up with good boxers types. Watch the films or read the news papers, because its true.

Louis was not a dynamic close the gap type of fighter like Frazier or Tyson was. He was a methodical shuffle in behind the jab fighter who once he got into a comfortable range unleashed a fury. Sure stiffs who could not jab, did not think much and got caught on the ropes ( Something that Vitlai is clearly not ) were axed by Louis.

Vitlai would own Louis from the outside, has better foot speed, and better reach. And he hits a lot harder and takes a much better punch than the boxers ( Farr, Godoy, Pastor, Walcott, Conn ) who gave Louis a lot of trouble and likely beat him twice as a group on fair score cards.

I seriously doubt Vitali hits harder than Joe 'The Brown Bomber' Louis.

Louis has more power, far better hand speed, great offensive skills - superb composite puncher - an under-rated defence and solid chance.

Vitali has the height and reach, and of course a fair bit of power, but with his hands low, his lazy jab isn't going to be enough to keep Louis of him, nor the right hand behind it, and he will get caught time and time again, and finished with a big combination.

[SuzieQ49]

Joe Louis had style match up with good boxers types. Watch the films or read the news papers, because its true.

NO...louis had trouble with good boxer types. louis matched up best against big slowish sluggers.....like vitali klitschko

[Mendoza]

Fact:
Carnera won 22 of his last 23.

Carnera won his next fight against a Top10 opponent.

1 ) WRONG, Carnera did not win 22 of his last 23. After Louis Ko'd Carera, Primo won 5, lost 3, then retired for a while in 1937. Carnera lost 6 of his last nine in his career.

2 ) I do not think Nussal was ring rated when Carnera beat him in 1935. So Carnera DID NOT win his next fight vs a top 10 opponent.

Rankings

1934
Max Baer ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Steve Hamas ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Art Lasky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
King Levinsky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Patsy Perroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jack Petersen ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Natie Brown ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Lee Ramage ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1935
James J. Braddock ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Retzlaff ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Loughran ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Eddie Mader ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Hank Hankinson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Impelletiere ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Al Ettore ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ford Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links])And those are the facts.

[Mendoza]

Loewe So, a fighter who si on a 22-1 winning streak, 28 years old going on to beat a top10 fighters - who at best was ranked number 4 in the world - is shot? Yeah, for sure.

Carnera after Baer floroed him 11 times was not the same. The sign of a shot fight is a step regress. What he did a years ago means nothing. Declines can happen quickly.


Nope he has not. Vitali is slow, slow, slow. His jab is awkward because it´s a mix of an uppercut, hook and a jab but it´s not fast and it also is often only pawed. Both would be exposed by a fighter like Louis.

Vitlai is not slow. Not even at age 37. Why don't you watch these clips and tell me if Vitlai was slow vs Peter. By the way, Vitlai had better hand speed at age 37 than Louis did for what its worth, and would surley KO the bomber if them meet in the mid 30's.

Let's look at the video and see if Vitlai as you say was slow, slow, slow:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Yeah, Sanders is slow. He has fast hands for a man his size but overall he is slow.

No, sanders is not slow. He has fast hands. Sanders overall slow? Disagree.


Never said he is. You know, I live in Germany, I followed the career of both Klitschko´s since they stepped their feet into a ring over here. I watched every single fight of them. I like them both. They are very good for the sport and the beside DLH the biggest names in boxing nowadays. But you have to be objective.

What is that flag in your avatar? Whether you live in Germany or China makes no differnce.


Vitali has good footwork and fast feet for his size. But it is not as good as Louis and he is slower. Yeah, Vitali is good at using his size but Louis beat man of similar size rather easily. Like I wrote in my first post, his reach and size are two of his assets but Louis is known to overcome such assets.

Without a doubt, Vitali has faster feet than Louis. Too bad I can't post side by side comparisons. In additon, Vitlai is harder to hit than Louis.


Yeah, he has to but it is not as hard as you make it seem. Vitali´s jab is slow even compared to Carnera´s not to mention that of a Conn or a Godoy. And Louis had not so many problems going by these jabs. Add that Vitali often paws with it and it´s obvious what happens more often than not. There would still be the right hand, okay, but don´t you think Louis could avoid telegraphed punches like that? I´m sure he can. Not always but most of the time and I can´t see Vitali who never fought a fighter who is even close in ability to Joe Louis surviving this.

Louis had problems with PAstor's and Farr's Jabs, which as much weaker, and slower than Vitlai's. Less range too. Louis could not get past Schmeling out fighting either...slow feet and poor defense cost him.

While there is only one Joe Louis, Vitlai did fight a very fast and hard hitting Herrbie Hide. The fight lasted two roudns. In fact, how good with Vitlai's power look with those light old timer gloves and small me in the ring with him?

[SuzieQ49]

Funny how mendoza mentions carnera getting floored by baer 11 times as some sort of long distance beating. Fact is carnera was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage, and outboxed baer all fight long. it wasnt a long term beating.......and carnera subsequent wins show he was anything but a shot fighter.


By the way, Vitlai had better hand speed at age 37 than Louis did for what its worth


I disagree, I think louis showed faster hands vs savold in the fight I have of him at age 37. I also dont think vitali looked fast at all vs peter.

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 Funny how mendoza mentions carnera getting floored by baer 11 times as some sort of long distance beating. Fact is carnera was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage, and outboxed baer all fight long. it wasnt a long term beating.......and carnera subsequent wins show he was anything but a shot fighter.

Carnera was ahead of Baer at the time of the stoppage? I do not beleive this. No way. Post a source please.

[SuzieQ49]

Referee Arthur Donovan one of 3 officials scorecard read 5 rounds to 5 even after 10 rounds..... according to the new york times.


I am looking at my other article to see what the other 2 officials had it, boxrec claims carnera was ahead on the judges cards entering the 10th.


I myself had it 6 rounds to 4 carnera after 10

[The Kurgan]

1 ) WRONG, Carnera did not win 22 of his last 23. After Louis Ko'd Carera, Primo won 5, lost 3, then retired for a while in 1937. Carnera lost 6 of his last nine in his career.

He was referring to the fact that aside from the Baer fight you have to go back 22 fights to 1932 to find a fight Carnera lost. And, if the source on boxrec is anything to go by, Carnera should have got the nod in that fight. If the boxing commissioner at the fight wasn't misquoted and was right, Carnera was 26-1 in his 27 fights prior to facing Joe Louis.

2 ) I do not think Nussal was ring rated when Carnera beat him in 1935. So Carnera DID NOT win his next fight vs a top 10 opponent.

Rankings

1934
Max Baer ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Steve Hamas ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Art Lasky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
King Levinsky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Patsy Perroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jack Petersen ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Natie Brown ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Lee Ramage ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1935
James J. Braddock ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Retzlaff ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Loughran ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Eddie Mader ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Hank Hankinson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Impelletiere ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Al Ettore ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ford Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Those are annual ratings.

[OBCboxer]

For help on picking a winner. You should watch the Subtle Skills of Joe Louis video on Youtube. It shows how he counters the jab and much more.

[OBCboxer]

Louis would eat up the slow Vitali when he starts to get confident and puts his hands down. He would hit him with quick hook combonations and would work the angles. IMO, Vitali isn't in the same class as Joe Louis, but that's nothing to be ashamed about.

[Mendoza]

Referee Arthur Donovan one of 3 officials scorecard read 5 rounds to 5 even after 10 rounds..... according to the new york times.


I am looking at my other article to see what the other 2 officials had it, boxrec claims carnera was ahead on the judges cards entering the 10th.


I myself had it 6 rounds to 4 carnera after 10

Donovan was a horrible judge, and IMO crooked. How can it be 6-4 for Carnera when Bear knocked Primo down 11 times? Are you saying Baer did all his knockdowns in 4 rounds?

[SuzieQ49]

Yes. Carnera won Rounds 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 clearly. round 5 was questionable.....so I am not suprised the judges and other people had carnera ahead.

[OBCboxer]

Donovan was a horrible judge, and IMO crooked. How can it be 6-4 for Carnera when Bear knocked Primo down 11 times? Are you saying Baer did all his knockdowns in 4 rounds?

Keep in mind that the fix was not in for Carnera in his fight against Baer.

[Loewe]

1 ) WRONG, Carnera did not win 22 of his last 23. After Louis Ko'd Carera, Primo won 5, lost 3, then retired for a while in 1937. Carnera lost 6 of his last nine in his career.

Carnera won 22 of his last 23 fights before facing Louis. That was what I meant. And this record and the record after his fight with Louis is clear evidence that Carnera slipped after Louis gave him a beating, not before.

2 ) I do not think Nussal was ring rated when Carnera beat him in 1935. So Carnera DID NOT win his next fight vs a top 10 opponent.

Rankings

1934
Max Baer ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion
Steve Hamas ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Art Lasky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
King Levinsky ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Patsy Perroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jack Petersen ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Natie Brown ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Lee Ramage ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1935
James J. Braddock ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion
Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Max Schmeling ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Primo Carnera ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Retzlaff ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Loughran ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Eddie Mader ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Hank Hankinson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Impelletiere ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Al Ettore ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ford Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links])And those are the facts.

I have a book here called "Kampftage" it´s about German pro boxing and in there is written that in 1934 when Schmeling fought Neusel the number three ranked hw fought the number four ranked hw. Neusel lost so he dropped in the rankings but between the Schmeling and the Carnera fight Neusel fought three times in London drawing one time and winning two times against more than solid opposition.
Also those rankings are made at the end of a year. Before the end of 1934 Neusel lost to Schmeling and so may be dropped out of the top ten, fought himself back, then faced Carnera lost and dropped out again. So it is very possible that Neusel was ranked as a top10 fighter before facing Carnera.

[Loewe]

Carnera after Baer floroed him 11 times was not the same. The sign of a shot fight is a step regress. What he did a years ago means nothing. Declines can happen quickly.
I don´t think I have to reply on this one, others have done it and I agree with them.

Vitlai is not slow. Not even at age 37. Why don't you watch these clips and tell me if Vitlai was slow vs Peter. By the way, Vitlai had better hand speed at age 37 than Louis did for what its worth, and would surley KO the bomber if them meet in the mid 30's.

Let's look at the video and see if Vitlai as you say was slow, slow, slow:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Vitali is slow. I´ve seen every single fight of him that was on TV, I don´t need any clips from you. He is slower than his brother, Lewis and Bowe, the other shws with great athletic ability.
He looked fast against Peter because Peter himself looked like he was 100 year old. If his brother would have been in there it would ave looked the same with Vitali beeing the 100 year old man.


No, sanders is not slow. He has fast hands. Sanders overall slow? Disagree.
Yes he is, especially the 37 year old, fat, out of shape Sanders Vitali fought.


What is that flag in your avatar? Whether you live in Germany or China makes no differnce.
That´s the flag of Bavaria which I call home. I, like most Bavarians, call myself a Bavarian first and then a German.
And yes it makes a difference. The Klitschko´s were brought up here. I´ve seen every fight of them shown live at TV, I followed their way up when it happened. That´s a difference to just watch clips at youtube.


Without a doubt, Vitali has faster feet than Louis. Too bad I can't post side by side comparisons. In additon, Vitlai is harder to hit than Louis.
:nut


Louis had problems with PAstor's and Farr's Jabs, which as much weaker, and slower than Vitlai's. Less range too. Louis could not get past Schmeling out fighting either...slow feet and poor defense cost him.

Both have weaker jabs, I agree but both are faster of hand and feet than Vitali. Louis could not get past Schmeling, well, Schmeling fought the fight of his live in that one and was a far more proven fighter than Vitali and is an atg. To compare those two is nearly an insult to Schmeling.


While there is only one Joe Louis, Vitlai did fight a very fast and hard hitting Herrbie Hide. The fight lasted two roudns. In fact, how good with Vitlai's power look with those light old timer gloves and small me in the ring with him?
Comparing Hide to Joe Louis :lol:

Lowe, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink it.

After that post of him I tend to agree with you.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= The scoring of the fright was at the time of the stoppage was Baer 6rds Carnera 4rds going into the 11th rd. Carnera`s vastly under-rated left jab was the reason as Carnera landed it with authority snapping Baer`s head back with wicked shots. Jack Sharkey went to his grave talking about
the difference between Carnera`s left jab in their first fight and the title fight.
Sharkey said that in the first fight it wasn`t that hard or accurate but in the title fight it was hard, damn hard and shook you all the way to your heels.
Sharkey said by the title fight he had learned a lot that he didn`t know in the first fight.

[SuzieQ49]

Big Dee. The referee had it 5 rounds to 5 what did the other 2 officials have it?


boxrec claims carnera was ahead. and on my scorecard i had carnera ahead

[Ted Spoon]

Vitali is a very effective fighter, but the degree to which he appears effective is skewed from reality due to his opponents limitations. The man was tested once in his career and he lost; not to suggest he cannot overcome adversity, but it is what it is.

The talent gap between a rusting Lennox Lewis and all of the victims is sizeable.

For all the credit Vitali rightly deserves for re-claiming his crown, Samuel Peters is a fighter of meagre ability. He is tough and strong, but so are many scaffolders, and while the comparison may seem harsh it is no less an apt retort to the initial comparisons between Peters and Foreman.

Joe Louis would find it hard at times to gauge the size difference but then there are those mistake he would pick up on with the low hands, pauses and hesitations that Peters could not even fathom as he ate leather.

Tackling a compatent big man like Vitali was alien for Peters, for Louis it would paint a familar blueprint with a few added tweeks here n' there by 'Chappie'.

Vitali would give Louis a tough bout, but the 'Brown Bomber' would put things into perspective whether he ended things later on or the Ukranian was stern enough to see the final bell.

Louis will get hit, but he will have the big man running with the big statements.

[C. M. Clay II]

Vitali is going to be in for a long night. Louis cat quick punches will wear down the big man quick and Louis will finish him off in about 5 rounds.