Create a complete MMA system...

[cross_trainer]

WITHOUT using the following:

Muay Thai
Kyokushin
Brazilian Jiujitsu
Judo
Modern Catch wrestling
Modern Boxing
Sambo
Sport Jujutsu
Amateur freestyle, folkstyle, or Greco Roman wrestling




Which OTHER martial arts could you use to fill the gaps?

[cross_trainer]

A few combinations others have used in the past:

Bartitsu -- 19th century pugilism, Tenshin-Shinyo Ryu Jiujitsu, "Street" Savate, Shinden Fudo Ryu

Defendre Dans La Rue -- Lutte Parisian, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Savate, and the assorted "dirty tricks" (not too dirty to us, really--elbows, knees, gnp) of old-school Savate




If you want to get weird, you can even go with something like...


5 animals gongfu + Ninjutsu groundwork + Mongolian Wrestling takedowns + Harimau principles

[Amsterdam]

WITHOUT using the following:

Muay Thai
Kyokushin
Brazilian Jiujitsu
Judo
Modern Catch wrestling
Modern Boxing
Sambo
Sport Jujutsu
Amateur freestyle, folkstyle, or Greco Roman wrestling




Which OTHER martial arts could you use to fill the gaps?


That's a killer there CT, because traditional JuJutsu is what I'd add for your primary ground defence and ground work.:yep

But here goes:

Old time boxing(Corbett era)
Taijutsu(a well rounded game of grappling and striking)
Mongolian Wrestling(some serious grappling fundamentals)
San Shou(a little spice, a style that uses takedown defence and advanced forms of striking)

I think those 4 divided into an even platform that takes the effectiveness from each and leaves the non-effective factors out would be well rounded and would be interesting to watch.

[Amsterdam]

A few combinations others have used in the past:

Bartitsu -- 19th century pugilism, Tenshin-Shinyo Ryu Jiujitsu, "Street" Savate, Shinden Fudo Ryu

Defendre Dans La Rue -- Lutte Parisian, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Savate, and the assorted "dirty tricks" (not too dirty to us, really--elbows, knees, gnp) of old-school Savate




If you want to get weird, you can even go with something like...


5 animals gongfu + Ninjutsu groundwork + Mongolian Wrestling takedowns + Harimau principles

Aren't getting too far with that if you're put on the ground by a BJJ blackbelt, trust me. Works well in taking anyone down though and has some very pleasing submissions.

[cross_trainer]

That's a killer there CT, because traditional JuJutsu is what I'd add for your primary ground defence and ground work.:yep

But here goes:

Old time boxing(Corbett era)
Taijutsu(a well rounded game of grappling and striking)
Mongolian Wrestling(some serious grappling fundamentals)
San Shou(a little spice, a style that uses takedown defence and advanced forms of striking)

I think those 4 divided into an even platform that takes the effectiveness from each and leaves the non-effective factors out would be well rounded and would be interesting to watch.

I like the combination. With all of the MT/BJJ/Wrestling going around, it's nice to see a little variety.

Have you given any thought to a Taijutsu-Dempsey combination? There are videos and books floating around with lots of Dempsey material on it (an instructional DVD is available on the Yahoo ClassicPugilism group, and Dempsey's manual is available for free download in dozens of places). There are also plenty of other manuals from this period (Carpentier wrote one too) that you could use to add some unorthodox boxing. Does Taijutsu have the kicks, knees, and elbows to round the system out?

[cross_trainer]

Aren't getting too far with that if you're put on the ground by a BJJ blackbelt, trust me. Works well in taking anyone down though and has some very pleasing submissions.

I believe you. I was thinking something along the lines of your PM--an unusual takedown followed by an equally unusual submission that most fighters aren't used to. In a prolonged ground battle, I'd expect BJJ to beat most types of ground fighters.

That, and the fact that "ninjutsu" (illegitimate branch, if I recollect) provided us with a few entertaining fights in the early UFC's.

[Amsterdam]

I believe you. I was thinking something along the lines of your PM--an unusual takedown followed by an equally unusual submission that most fighters aren't used to. In a prolonged ground battle, I'd expect BJJ to beat most types of ground fighters.

That, and the fact that "ninjutsu" (illegitimate branch, if I recollect) provided us with a few entertaining fights in the early UFC's.

Ninjutsu is the expanded set of disciplines that goes way back to the Ninja days, most of the stuff is totally worthless, the blade technique's can't even compare to Krav Maga's work in the area of the knife.

Generally, if you have a Taijutsu advanced specialist, a submission attempt would come specifically when he feels that he has a direct opening to absolutley submit the guy(I.E. Joe Riggs being triangled very quickly after being stunned by a kick, if you saw that bout vs. the Brazilian).

Ninjutsu takedowns are fine and would dazzle many fans, but the ground work is just touched upon, needs to be expanded on by cross training in BJJ or some form of wrestling.

It's a pity how limited most people's mindset are, but a Taijutsu practicioner actually in a Ninja suit would REALLY dazzle fans!:lol:

[cross_trainer]

Ninjutsu is the expanded set of disciplines that goes way back to the Ninja days, most of the stuff is totally worthless, the blade technique's can't even compare to Krav Maga's work in the area of the knife.

Generally, if you have a Taijutsu advanced specialist, a submission attempt would come specifically when he feels that he has a direct opening to absolutley submit the guy(I.E. Joe Riggs being triangled very quickly after being stunned by a kick, if you saw that bout vs. the Brazilian).

Ninjutsu takedowns are fine and would dazzle many fans, but the ground work is just touched upon, needs to be expanded on by cross training in BJJ or some form of wrestling.

It's a pity how limited most people's mindset are, but a Taijutsu practicioner actually in a Ninja suit would REALLY dazzle fans!:lol:

ECS practitioners should be required to wear ninja costumes in MMA tournaments.

[Amsterdam]

ECS practitioners should be required to wear ninja costumes in MMA tournaments.

:lol:

The only issue is that they are just as endowed in Jiujitsu and Krav Maga, even with the ninja basis for building...

But, it'd be cool, no doubt. The problem is with any sort of costume or GI in modern MMA is that they are an immense oppurtunity for the opponent to gain a significant advantage.:yep

[Amsterdam]

Varzesh - Silat - Fisticuffs

[ufoalf]

Is kick boxing considered under "modern boxing", cause that would be a huge one imo :). If not Tae Kwon Do can do the trick in that respect.

[cross_trainer]

Varzesh - Silat - Fisticuffs

That's tough to beat as weird combinations go. But try this one on for size:

Kalarippayattu - Medieval Wrestling - Dog Boxing Gongfu

[Amsterdam]

That's tough to beat as weird combinations go. But try this one on for size:

Kalarippayattu - Medieval Wrestling - Dog Boxing Gongfu

You've outdone it. However:

Wing Chun - Pehlwani - Kajukenbo

[cross_trainer]

You've outdone it. However:

Wing Chun - Pehlwani - Kajukenbo

Mine is still weirder. Dog boxers actually bark like dogs, and it's so obscure that people consider it a tongue in cheek joke. :yep

Nonetheless...



Kuialua - Robotae - Combat Ki

Fortunately, Robotae and Kuialua cover all my ranges, so I'm free to include "hit-me-please-fu".

[mantis_boxing]

Savate, Jeet Kune Do, Kickboxing (?), Karate, Daido Juku

[SweetScienceFan]

Beach Wrestling
Kick boxing
Aikido for the hell of it

[Amsterdam]

Pankration - Krav Maga - Daiko Jodu

Trained for MMA rules, this would be a killer.:hey

[Amsterdam]

I like the combination. With all of the MT/BJJ/Wrestling going around, it's nice to see a little variety.

Have you given any thought to a Taijutsu-Dempsey combination? There are videos and books floating around with lots of Dempsey material on it (an instructional DVD is available on the Yahoo ClassicPugilism group, and Dempsey's manual is available for free download in dozens of places). There are also plenty of other manuals from this period (Carpentier wrote one too) that you could use to add some unorthodox boxing. Does Taijutsu have the kicks, knees, and elbows to round the system out?

I missed this one earlier Cross -

Lots of kick training, though it's for defensive and stalking use mostly, there are a vast variety of kicks, including types that work right out of spinning a guy out of a clinch and then following up with a quick roundhouse, this works under the right circumstances. Tons of knee's that pretty much resemble getting a lock and spraying the opponent with knee's, then using that to set a takedown oppurtunity and elbows are rarely used.

But ECS has a significant amount of elbow work.

[cross_trainer]

I missed this one earlier Cross -

Lots of kick training, though it's for defensive and stalking use mostly, there are a vast variety of kicks, including types that work right out of spinning a guy out of a clinch and then following up with a quick roundhouse, this works under the right circumstances. Tons of knee's that pretty much resemble getting a lock and spraying the opponent with knee's, then using that to set a takedown oppurtunity and elbows are rarely used.

But ECS has a significant amount of elbow work.

Which parts of ECS are derived from each martial art? I'm guessing the elbows are Krav based?

[cross_trainer]

Pankration - Krav Maga - Daiko Jodu

Trained for MMA rules, this would be a killer.:hey

It certainly would. They could even join up with the guys were are trying to reconstruct OLD SCHOOL pankration and add those techniques. (Unfortunately, that's all the old-school pankration is good for at the moment, since most of it is unsalvageable and the system is therefore incomplete).

[Amsterdam]

Which parts of ECS are derived from each martial art? I'm guessing the elbows are Krav based?

General hand striking/defence for hand striking - Boxing(major), Taijutsu(additional), Combat Sambo(very minor), Krav Maga

Leg striking - Taijutsu(major), Muay Thai(additional)

Footwork - Boxing, Muay Thai, Krav Maga(positioning).

Grappling(standing/takedowns) - Taijutsu, Judo, JuJutsu, Krav Maga, Shooto(very minor).

Grappling(ground) - BJJ, Catch Wrestling, Krav Maga.

Creativity in terms of utilising effective ways to deconstruct styles is a big part of it's development as well, these are the derivative styles but customization is very much open for the practicioner after the general disciplines are mastered.

[Amsterdam]

It certainly would. They could even join up with the guys were are trying to reconstruct OLD SCHOOL pankration and add those techniques. (Unfortunately, that's all the old-school pankration is good for at the moment, since most of it is unsalvageable and the system is therefore incomplete).

Pankration practicioners are still badass.:yep :good

[cross_trainer]

Pankration practicioners are still badass.:yep :good

Oh, definitely. And there's probably a great deal we can still learn from them. Have you seen the Pankration Project website?

[cross_trainer]

General hand striking/defence for hand striking - Boxing(major), Taijutsu(additional), Combat Sambo(very minor), Krav Maga

Leg striking - Taijutsu(major), Muay Thai(additional)

Footwork - Boxing, Muay Thai, Krav Maga(positioning).

Grappling(standing/takedowns) - Taijutsu, Judo, JuJutsu, Krav Maga, Shooto(very minor).

Grappling(ground) - BJJ, Catch Wrestling, Krav Maga.

Creativity in terms of utilising effective ways to deconstruct styles is a big part of it's development as well, these are the derivative styles but customization is very much open for the practicioner after the general disciplines are mastered.

Very interesting indeed. You should do some ECS demonstrations with a partner on Youtube to allow us to see the blueprint of how the style is supposed to work and look. Pleeeeaaase? :D

[Amsterdam]

Very interesting indeed. You should do some ECS demonstrations with a partner on Youtube to allow us to see the blueprint of how the style is supposed to work and look. Pleeeeaaase? :D

I'd be cautioned before I got some of the major bulk copywrited. More than likely, I'd draw up an extensive manual, then get that manual copywrited and then start with demonstrations.:think

[Amsterdam]

Oh, definitely. And there's probably a great deal we can still learn from them. Have you seen the Pankration Project website?

Will have to look into it. Pankration is fun to watch from my point of view, it's a pleasing style.

[cross_trainer]

I'd be cautioned before I got some of the major bulk copywrited. More than likely, I'd draw up an extensive manual, then get that manual copywrited and then start with demonstrations.:think

I imagine that (like chess positions) you couldn't copyright martial arts techniques. You may be able to copyright a complete system (is yours complete yet?), but then again people watching your Youtube video may not have the necessary expertise to plagiarize based on a few minutes of low-quality footage.

As for copyrights, I recommend using the following website to begin with:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You send the manuscript in electronically (which automatically copyrights the document under US laws) and then anyone wishing to order it can do so--and Lulu will individually print out the book and send it to them, with no need for work from your end.

[cross_trainer]

Will have to look into it. Pankration is fun to watch from my point of view, it's a pleasing style.

Are you referring to the Arvanitis modern version:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

...or the historically accurate reconstruction project:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


or both? :think

[Beebs]

Will have to look into it. Pankration is fun to watch from my point of view, it's a pleasing style.

I think you two are thinking of different definitions of Pankration, unless some ancient greek snuck in a DVD burner to the olympics. :lol:

[cross_trainer]

I think you two are thinking of different definitions of Pankration, unless some ancient greek snuck in a DVD burner to the olympics. :lol:

I wouldn't put it past 'em. Those ancient Greeks were sneaky.

[cross_trainer]

Or perhaps you're referring to modern Pancrase--a competitive format derived from professional wrestling? :huh

[Amsterdam]

Or perhaps you're referring to modern Pancrase--a competitive format derived from professional wrestling? :huh

This is what was on my mind, yes.

[cross_trainer]

This is what was on my mind, yes.

Ah, I see. I was referring to ancient Pankration.

[Olz15]

Crav Magma, Hapkido, Silat

[Amsterdam]

Crav Magma, Hapkido, Silat

Have a particular disliking to Krav Maga?:think

[cross_trainer]

Have a particular disliking to Krav Maga?:think

No, he's referring specifically to Crav Magma, the deadly art of lava-fighting.

[Beebs]

Beach wrestling was a very good call, whoever said it.

As for me I would have to go with

Luta Livre from Brazil which has produced one of the best 145lb fighters in the world in Alexandre "pequeno" Franca Nogueira, can't believe nobody has mentioned this, as I really don't think it counts as catch wrestling or jiujitsu.
Beach Wrestling
Shotokan Karate from a good school, which has produced several good fighters, Lyoto Machida being one that pops into mind
And if I can use it without it being considered to close to modern boxing,
London Prize Ring Rules style Boxing

[Amsterdam]

No, he's referring specifically to Crav Magma, the deadly art of lava-fighting.

Ever trained in this one CT? I have 4 months experience...:yep

[SweetScienceFan]

Beach wrestling was a very good call, whoever said it.

As for me I would have to go with

Luta Livre from Brazil which has produced one of the best 145lb fighters in the world in Alexandre "pequeno" Franca Nogueira, can't believe nobody has mentioned this, as I really don't think it counts as catch wrestling or jiujitsu.
Beach Wrestling
Shotokan Karate from a good school, which has produced several good fighters, Lyoto Machida being one that pops into mind
And if I can use it without it being considered to close to modern boxing,
London Prize Ring Rules style Boxing
I said it, however I just moved on as I figured that people weren't familiar with it. I also said the obvious kickboxing, which wasn't listed as one that couldn't be used.

Shoot wrestling, shootfighting, or shooto would also be good calls.

[Amsterdam]

I said it, however I just moved on as I figured that people weren't familiar with it. I also said the obvious kickboxing, which wasn't listed as one that couldn't be used.

Shoot wrestling, shootfighting, or shooto would also be good calls.

What type of specific striking defence disciplines would be the major, for people with glass chins like Liddell, they specifically need it.:think

[cross_trainer]

What type of specific striking defence disciplines would be the major, for people with glass chins like Liddell, they specifically need it.:think

Mendoza's boxing system would be best. The closest thing to a bareknuckle boxing wrestler's stance--extended arms to catch punches early, a solid base to prevent takedowns, and a few nasty holds to pummel a guy inside. Also, the base is suitable for modern boxing footwork and especially head movement. Heck, the arms are even well placed to wrap around a guy for Thai clinching.

Defensive MMA fighter's dream style, except that the legs are probably too wide and thus vulnerable to a good leg-kicker.

[cross_trainer]

Ever trained in this one CT? I have 4 months experience...:yep

Krav Maga -- haven't trained it. I hear that most branches of it in the US are not legitimate, but I imagine military-affiliated stuff would be.

Crav Magma -- I've been training it for years, honing my body to diamond-hard consistency in the volcanoes of Hawaii.

[Beebs]

What type of specific striking defence disciplines would be the major, for people with glass chins like Liddell, they specifically need it.:think

You have got to be fucking kidding me.:huh

He's been KO'd one time, by a damn hard looping right hand that connected right on the button, and now has a glass chin after a career of being known for having a pretty damn good chin? People are so ignorant and fickle.:verysad

[SweetScienceFan]

What type of specific striking defence disciplines would be the major, for people with glass chins like Liddell, they specifically need it.:think
Dirty boxing is nice, as you can clinch your opponent and manhandle him a bit while hitting. If you keep your opponent off balance, and on the defense, he isn't likely to catch you with a big punch.

Also, how about the crazy monkey style?

Liddell himself is a Kenpo (Kempo) fighter, and that wasn't listed either. Seems to suit him just fine. BTW, I don't see how he has a glass jaw. I think that Liddell's chin has proven very good in the past.

[Amsterdam]

You have got to be fucking kidding me.:huh

He's been KO'd one time, by a damn hard looping right hand that connected right on the button, and now has a glass chin after a career of being known for having a pretty damn good chin? People are so ignorant and fickle.:verysad

:yep

[Amsterdam]

Krav Maga -- haven't trained it. I hear that most branches of it in the US are not legitimate, but I imagine military-affiliated stuff would be.

Crav Magma -- I've been training it for years, honing my body to diamond-hard consistency in the volcanoes of Hawaii.

What is the ranking system in Crav Magma?