Fights in which the 'cannon fodder' upset the prospect

[ChrisPontius]

I like Marciano's 4th and 5th professional pro fights against Bobby Quinn (8-0) and Eddie Ross (15-0). Their managers had probably seen Marciano spar and concluded he was the ideal new padding for their fighters' record.

Another one would be Wladimir Klitschko vs journeyman Ross Purrity. Wlad pummuled him for 9 rounds untill he ran out of gas and his corner threw in the towel. Big upset.

[janitor]

I like Marciano's 4th and 5th professional pro fights against Bobby Quinn (8-0) and Eddie Ross (15-0). Their managers had probably seen Marciano spar and concluded he was the ideal new padding for their fighters' record.


Eddie Ross was actualy 26-0-1 with 23 KOs when Marciano was fed to him.

Those who think that Marciano was a protected fighter are mistaken.

[bumdujour]

michael bentt vs morrison.

bentt had basically no pro experience........but whacked out the guy who was supposed to challenge lewis for the title and a 5 million purse.

[janitor]

Sonny Liston against Johny Summerlin.

[Thread Stealer]

Darroll Wilson-Shannon Briggs

[Unforgiven]

Louis Monaco (4-6-2) TKO 5 Kevin McBride (19-0-1)

[bumdujour]

Eddie Ross was actualy 26-0-1 with 23 KOs when Marciano was fed to him.

Those who think that Marciano was a protected fighter are mistaken.

boxrec has eddie ross at 15-0-1 at the time of the marciano fight.

and eddie ross was not a heavyweight. he had scaled as low as 167 a few months before the marciano fight.

to me this indeed suggests protection on marcianos half.

[Dempsey1238]

even though Rocky was only 4-0??? Marciano didnt weight that much either at 184 for the fight.

[janitor]

boxrec has eddie ross at 15-0-1 at the time of the marciano fight.

and eddie ross was not a heavyweight. he had scaled as low as 167 a few months before the marciano fight.

to me this indeed suggests protection on marcianos half.

It dose not matter what boxrec lists him as. The papers of the time list Ross as 26-0-1. Boxrec is woefully incomplete.

Protection?

If you had a young fighter with 4 profesional fights would you think that you were protecting him by putting him in the ring with a guy with 27 fights just because he was a light heavyweight?

Marciano himself was around the light heavyweight limit at this time.

At this stage in his career there was nobody to protect Marciano. He was living at the YMCA and training in the YMCA swimming pool. If he wanted to visit a potential manager he had to hitch hike.

[Titan1]

Alex Ramos-Ted Sanders
Bobby Joe Young-Kevin Howard
Tony Santana-Refujio Rojas.

[bumdujour]

It dose not matter what boxrec lists him as. The papers of the time list Ross as 26-0-1. Boxrec is woefully incomplete.

Protection?

If you had a young fighter with 4 profesional fights would you think that you were protecting him by putting him in the ring with a guy with 27 fights just because he was a light heavyweight?

Marciano himself was around the light heavyweight limit at this time.

At this stage in his career there was nobody to protect Marciano. He was living at the YMCA and training in the YMCA swimming pool. If he wanted to visit a potential manager he had to hitch hike.

depends on the fighter. look at chagaev. he was 5-0 when he took on rob calloway who way 43-3.............and it was no big deal.

numbers lie. if i had a young prospect with talent, i wouldnt mind putting him in with a guy like 41-0 don steele in his pro debut.

and that wouldnt be overmatching.

[CASH_718]

boxrec has eddie ross at 15-0-1 at the time of the marciano fight.

and eddie ross was not a heavyweight. he had scaled as low as 167 a few months before the marciano fight.

to me this indeed suggests protection on marcianos half.

1 month to be exact.

[CASH_718]

depends on the fighter. look at chagaev. he was 5-0 when he took on rob calloway who way 43-3.............and it was no big deal.

numbers lie. if i had a young prospect with talent, i wouldnt mind putting him in with a guy like 41-0 don steele in his pro debut.

and that wouldnt be overmatching.Oleg Maskaev fought a fighter that was 21-0 in his first pro fight. Then in his 5th he fought a fight that was 23-1-1.

[CASH_718]

David Reid's first 15 opponents had a combined record of 386-55-9. That's amazing.

[CASH_718]

Maricano's combined record of his first 15 opponents were 69-48-2.

[janitor]

[quote=bumdujour]depends on the fighter. look at chagaev. he was 5-0 when he took on rob calloway who way 43-3.............and it was no big deal.


It probably was for Chagev at the time. A singularly frightning experience.


numbers lie. if i had a young prospect with talent, i wouldnt mind putting him in with a guy like 41-0 don steele in his pro debut.

and that wouldnt be overmatching.


Putting him in with a fighter with a winning record would be overmatching at five fights into his career.

[janitor]

depends on the fighter. look at chagaev. he was 5-0 when he took on rob calloway who way 43-3.............and it was no big deal.


Lets take a closer look.

Calloway had a grand total of 7 knockouts in 43 fights when he fought Chagev.

Ross had 23 knockouts in 26 fights when he fought Marciano.

See the diference?

Chagev was given a tough oponent designed to give him a tough fight.

Marciano was offered up as a sacrificial lamb to Ross.

If you quesation this then I will give you the testimony of Marciano's then manager who specificaly stated that he wanted to give Ross another easy win and so gave him Marciano.

[The Kurgan]

It should be noted that Marciano had no distinguished amateur background; in fact, he hardly had an amateur background at all. Chagaev, as far as I'm aware, does have an extensive amateur background, and I'm sure Maskaev did. You wouldn't put Foreman in with Chris Finnegan in 1970, would you?

[JohnThomas1]

Bobby Joe Young-Kevin Howard


And with the shoe on the other foot

Bobby Joe Young - Darrell Chambers

to make it even better, Bobby's cornerman outsmarted Emmanual Steward.

[bumdujour]

Lets take a closer look.

Calloway had a grand total of 7 knockouts in 43 fights when he fought Chagev.

Ross had 23 knockouts in 26 fights when he fought Marciano.

See the diference?

Chagev was given a tough oponent designed to give him a tough fight.

Marciano was offered up as a sacrificial lamb to Ross.

If you quesation this then I will give you the testimony of Marciano's then manager who specificaly stated that he wanted to give Ross another easy win and so gave him Marciano.

again, not true.

calloway had 32 knockouts.

chagaev was not given a fight with calloway to test him. calloway was just thought of a fodder.

rocky had been good enough to compete at the olympic tryouts as an amateur......so he proved he could fight a little.
and he was 4-0 with 4ko´s going into the ross fight.
and he was a heavyweight, where ross was at best a light heavy!!!

and ross had been held to a draw in his 11 th fight by a guy with a record of 0-0-0 and had otherwise only met no hopers.

so if the manager thought that matching his light heavyweight with shaky credentials against a heavy with marcianos background would be easy pickings.......well, then the guy didnt know what boxing is about.

so if marcianos manager thought he was overmatching marciano, then this idea was based simply on his own incompetence.

but that doesnt make ross a better fighter!! nor does it lay proof to that marciano was not a protected fighter.

[Dempsey1238]

again, not true.

calloway had 32 knockouts.

chagaev was not given a fight with calloway to test him. calloway was just thought of a fodder.

rocky had been good enough to compete at the olympic tryouts as an amateur......so he proved he could fight a little.
and he was 4-0 with 4ko´s going into the ross fight.
and he was a heavyweight, where ross was at best a light heavy!!!

and ross had been held to a draw in his 11 th fight by a guy with a record of 0-0-0 and had otherwise only met no hopers.

so if the manager thought that matching his light heavyweight with shaky credentials against a heavy with marcianos background would be easy pickings.......well, then the guy didnt know what boxing is about.

so if marcianos manager thought he was overmatching marciano, then this idea was based simply on his own incompetence.

but that doesnt make ross a better fighter!! nor does it lay proof to that marciano was not a protected fighter.

I am PRETTY sure that 0-0-0 record is pretty incomplete.

[Russell]

Courtney Burton/Angel Manfredy was a bit of an upset. Later in Manfredy's career, but eh...

Ivan Robinson/Arturo Gatti?

[Russell]

The Big O is one of the worst managed fighter of recent years. He took on McCall in his 11th fight ...

Yeah, and Oliver blew him out in one.

[OLD FOGEY]

depends on the fighter. look at chagaev. he was 5-0 when he took on rob calloway who way 43-3.............and it was no big deal.

numbers lie. if i had a young prospect with talent, i wouldnt mind putting him in with a guy like 41-0 don steele in his pro debut.

and that wouldnt be overmatching.

On Marciano, though, the promoter did say that Marciano was the opponent and he expected him to lose to Quinn and Ross.

[Marciano Frazier]

Maricano's combined record of his first 15 opponents were 69-48-2. A. Boxrec is very incomplete, moreso the farther back you go. Some of those opponents may have had many more fights than boxrec lists.

B. Most prospects' first 15 opponents have losing combined records- for example, James Toney's first 15 opponents were 58-65-1 according to boxrec-, so this is hardly a blot on Marciano's legacy, particularly seeing how he didn't start boxing 'til he was well into his 20s and had a brief amateur career with no professional instruction until he had a half-dozen pro fights.

[Marciano Frazier]

On Marciano, though, the promoter did say that Marciano was the opponent and he expected him to lose to Quinn and Ross. Yes, Marciano wasn't viewed as a prospect at the time. He wasn't like Chagaev, who was a high-profile amateur with a big management backing who was viewed as a potential champion from the moment he turned pro. Marciano had a very quiet, brief, low-profile amateur career and wasn't expected to go anywhere in the pros. Ross and Quinn were viewed as prospects with potential and Marciano was intended to provide record-padding wins for them. In fact, Marciano's pro debut opponent Epperson was a well-regarded local amateur himself and was also expected to beat Rocky.

[OLD FOGEY]

Sonny Liston against Johny Summerlin.

Liston was considered the prospect.

[Sam Dixon]

On Marciano, though, the promoter did say that Marciano was the opponent and he expected him to lose to Quinn and Ross.

"This Marchegiano kid's got nothing. He can punch all right, but I've never seen a fighter as clumsy. The kid doesn't know what he's doin' out there. Quinn won't have no trouble with him." - said the fight's promoter, Sam Silverman to Quinn's manager, Jimmy O'Keefe


"Ross was classy. He had twenty-six wins and twenty-three knockouts. He was fighting for me in New Bedford, and I was looking to keep him around for the summer. I figured Rocky was bound to get beat, and Ross was the kid to do it. I threw Rocky in to give this kid another win and keep his popularity up in New Bedford." - Sam Silverman

[OLD FOGEY]

again, not true.

calloway had 32 knockouts.

chagaev was not given a fight with calloway to test him. calloway was just thought of a fodder.

rocky had been good enough to compete at the olympic tryouts as an amateur......so he proved he could fight a little.
and he was 4-0 with 4ko´s going into the ross fight.
and he was a heavyweight, where ross was at best a light heavy!!!

and ross had been held to a draw in his 11 th fight by a guy with a record of 0-0-0 and had otherwise only met no hopers.

so if the manager thought that matching his light heavyweight with shaky credentials against a heavy with marcianos background would be easy pickings.......well, then the guy didnt know what boxing is about.

so if marcianos manager thought he was overmatching marciano, then this idea was based simply on his own incompetence.

but that doesnt make ross a better fighter!! nor does it lay proof to that marciano was not a protected fighter.

Ross was undefeated and coming off a victory over Wilfie Shanks, an
experienced trial horse who had been in with at least 3 top ten fighters,
Vic Dellicurti, Al Priest, and Artie Levine. Shanks had lost to all of them, but his presence shows that Ross was moving up far past a preliminary boy such as Marciano's opponents. Shanks 38-16 record was certainly respectable.
Quinn was coming off a win over Johnny Melko, who was 31-11.
Quinn and Ross were obviously far more advanced than Marciano.

[OLD FOGEY]

On the original question--Jerry Quarry beating Mac Foster and Ron Lyle might fill the bill.

Lee Savold defeating Lou Brooks.

Johnny Shkor defeating Buddy Moore--Moore was considered the hottest heavyweight prospect ever, a better prospect even than his stablemate, one Sugar Ray Robinson.

[Sam Dixon]

On the original question--Jerry Quarry beating Mac Foster and Ron Lyle might fill the bill.

If speaking of heavyweights, during that late 60's/early 70's era we also saw Chuck Wepner pull off a huge upset win over the heavily favoured Forrest Ward, who was highly decorated as an amateur (the winnner of the Golden Gloves, National AAU, and Pan Am Games during his last year in the ammys), and when he entered the pro ranks, he did so with much fanfare from people who viewed him as a young phenom of sorts.

[OLD FOGEY]

If speaking of heavyweights, during that late 60's/early 70's era we also saw Chuck Wepner pull off a huge upset win over the heavily favoured Forrest Ward, who was highly decorated as an amateur (the winnner of the Golden Gloves, National AAU, and Pan Am Games during his last year in the ammys), and when he entered the pro ranks, he did so with much fanfare from people who viewed him as a young phenom of sorts.

Really knowledgable pick.

Considering Nick Wells' great amateur record, Mike Koranicki knocking out Nick Wells is up there also.

[Sam Dixon]

Thanks, Fogey.

[janitor]

[quote=bumdujour]
chagaev was not given a fight with calloway to test him. calloway was just thought of a fodder.


Regardless of what Calloway was meant to be for Chagev the fact remains that Marciano's manager specificaly stated that Quinn and Ross were the prospects and Marciano was the fodder used to build up their records.

Now if he was trying to protect Marciano at this stage he was doing a verry unsatisfactory job of it.


rocky had been good enough to compete at the olympic tryouts as an amateur......so he proved he could fight a little.
and he was 4-0 with 4ko´s going into the ross fight.


Sure but he was not seen as a prospect untill much later. He was old and had few amateur fights so nobody expected him to go verry far.


and he was a heavyweight, where ross was at best a light heavy!!!


Marciano himself was not much over the light heavyweight limit at this stage.


and ross had been held to a draw in his 11 th fight by a guy with a record of 0-0-0 and had otherwise only met no hopers.


Yes. No hopers like Marciano.


but that doesnt make ross a better fighter!! nor does it lay proof to that marciano was not a protected fighter.


The proof is his managers testimony that he was setting Marciano up to loose.

[Lex]

A near upset...

Wilfred Benitez, who'd just been stripped of his first light-welter belt (WBA, as a 17 year old against Antonio Cervantes), took on Bruce Curry. The Benitez team probably considered it a tuneup for regaining the title and a big money match down the road with the new superstar Sugar Ray Leonard.

Curry had only 14 pro fights under his belt, but the Benitez people may not have known about Curry's amateur record. He ranked only slightly below Leonard in the U.S. at a time when the light-welterweight division was a very tough crowd. I was briefly on one of Bruce's amateur teams, sparred with him a couple of times and watched many of his fights. He was very, very good.

Bruce knocked Benitez down three times and lost a highly disputed 10 round split decision, which forced a rematch. Curry lost that one by majority draw but gained a lot of respect, which led to a shot at the WBC title, which he won a few years later.

[scartissue]

Jesse Ferguson upsetting Ray Mercer (I'll give you $100,000 to lay down!)

Scartissue

[DamonD]

I'll always remember watching when Steve Robinson beat John Davison for the vacant WBO Featherweight Title in '93. Davison had 3 losses but was considered a lock for it since Robinson was a journeyman and had just 2 days notice.

Instead Robinson overwhelmed him, and went on an unbelievable 2-year run as a fighting champion before running into a prime Hamed.

[Marciano Frazier]

Kid Longoria was considered one of the best prospects in boxing and a likely future heavyweight champ before he was shockingly knocked out by Memphis Al Jones. Jones climbing off the floor from repeated knockdowns to knock out Boone Kirkman was also a stunning upset

[Drew101]

Stevie Johnston was undefeated, but only had eleven fights, and was pretty lightly regrded when he faced Sharmba Mitchell- who was coming off a loss to Leavander Jonson, and undoubtedly was looking to get back into the win column.

Johnson, of course, proceeded to spring the upset by knocking Mitchell silly in the 9th round, and went on to enjoy a stellar career, but, the fact remains, he was the prohibitive underdog going into what would turn out to be his breakout fight.

[Titan1]

Frank Bruno-Bonecrusher Smith.

[CASH_718]

Lets take a closer look.

Calloway had a grand total of 7 knockouts in 43 fights when he fought Chagev.
Calloway was 42-3(32 KO's) when he fought Chagaev for the first time.:deal

[Dostoevsky]

Leon Spinks - Muhammad Ali
Kevin McBride - Mike Tyson
Danny Williams - Mike Tyson
Buster Douglas - Mike Tyson
Zahir Raheem - Erik Morales
Hasim rahman - Lennox Lewis
Max Baer - James Braddock

[Titan1]

Trevor Berbick-Super Greg Page?

[mr. magoo]

Trevor Berbick-Super Greg Page?

I don't know,

both of those guys were at similar junctions in thier careers, although Berbick had a few more fights and had already challenged for the world title. Nevertheless, I'd say they were both on par with one another.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't know,

both of those guys were at similar junctions in thier careers, although Berbick had a few more fights and had already challenged for the world title. Nevertheless, I'd say they were both on par with one another.Page was the definite fave and Berbick was thought to be a relatively safe fight believe it or not. Holmes had beaten him by a fair size margin and Page was expected to do similar. Turns out Berbick was both underrated and stylistically awkward as hell for Page.

[Sonny's jab]

In his pro debut Oleg Maskaev was matched with 21-0 Alex Miroschnichenko, who had been an excellent soviet amateur and was being brought along as a prospect.
Maskaev knocked him out.
Five fights later the 6-0 Maskaev tried his luck against recently dethroned former WBC champion Oliver McCall but thet proved a step too far.

Maskaev has taken the hard road his entire career, that's not the usual story of a title-holder these days.

[Titan1]

Page was the definite fave and Berbick was thought to be a relatively safe fight believe it or not. Holmes had beaten him by a fair size margin and Page was expected to do similar. Turns out Berbick was both underrated and stylistically awkward as hell for Page.

I guess the broken thumb didn't help Page either:think .

[buzzsaw]

Freddie Pendleton's (14-13-1) KO of Roger Mayweather (23-3) in 86.