"Had Johnson preferred black women and been as humble as Patterson...

[My dinner with Conteh]

...he'd still be champ today

[McGrain]

wtf

[My dinner with Conteh]

...he'd have replaced Eric Campbell as Chaplin's 'heavy' of choice following the Scotsman's death in 1917.

[McGrain]

wtf

[My dinner with Conteh]

...he'd have married Bessie Smith and they'd have made sweet sweet music together, including an 'early' rap version of "Minnie The Moocher"

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[janitor]

There w always going to be a masive backlash against him but he could have had a more positive impact.

Before he won the title there were liberal sections of the press who championed his cause and asumed mistakenly that he would be a good champion in terms of how he presented himself.

Peter Jackson and Harry Wills were generaly seen as good eggs by the press even if they had the efrontary to be born black. Joe Louis had many of the same problems with the press that his predecesors did. It was never a given that he would gain their acceptance.

If Jack Johnson had treated himself as a role model without any capacity to feel ofence, as Joe Louis did it is just possible that he could have broken down the colour bar or shortened its existence.

[McGrain]

The full quote, Robert Lypste: "Had Johnson preferred black women and been as humble as Floyd Patterson they still would have found a way to junk him."

Agree or disagree?

[mcvey]

The full quote, Robert Lypste: "Had Johnson preferred black women and been as humble as Floyd Patterson they still would have found a way to junk him."

Agree or disagree?
I beleive Patterson's Wife was Swedish.

[Rubber Warrior]

...he'd still be champ today

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[janitor]

The full quote, Robert Lypste: "Had Johnson preferred black women and been as humble as Floyd Patterson they still would have found a way to junk him."

Agree or disagree?

Hmmmmmmmm

They would have half junked him.

There wouldnt habve been any schenanigans by the secret services or trumped up charges.

There would still have been a white hope campaign but it would have latterly become more subtle. There was basicaly a white hope campaign against Louis in all but name. Jack Curley would still have hand picked Jess Willard to separate him from the title.

The point has to be made however that there was always a liberal tendancy in the press that suported black fighters, and a humble Johnson would have strengthened their hand considerably.

Incidentaly Johnson would have been a highly popular champion today. His charm, wit and inteligence would have got him on dancing with the stars.

[Vanboxingfan]

Disagree, partially.

If they were really pissed off about the fighting aspect of it, someone who have gotten to him during or after the Jeffries fight. Now there were riots, so many were none too pleased, but I think if he'd a stuck with black women and stayed active, the vast majority of people would have gradually accepted it, albeit reluctantly.

The real afront at the time was that he was having sex with white women and flaunting it.

Put those two together and many members of society couldn't accept it.

[janitor]

The real afront at the time was that he was having sex with white women and flaunting it.


Joe Louis inseminated more white women than any white man but he managed to keep it under his hat.

[ChrisPontius]

I beleive Patterson's Wife was Swedish.

Word has it, Johansson's wife was at stake in their rubber match. The rest is history.

[mcvey]

Word has it, Johansson's wife was at stake in their rubber match. The rest is history.
Birgit was a seriously good looking lady,that is as good an incentive as Liston's corner men ,telling him if he kod his opponent qiuck Lena Horne would sleep with him.Who by the way was one of Louis's old flames,Lena ,not Liston.

[mcvey]

Joe Louis inseminated more white women than any white man but he managed to keep it under his hat.
One of Louis's conquests,was the skater Sonjia Henne,blonde and beautiful,but you won't find one pic of Joe with a white woman.

[mcvey]

...he'd still be champ today
The books on Johnson I read, say that he originally preferred black women but was double crossed by a couple and changed his tastes, then of course his increased wealth and celebrity gave him access to all types of female company.

[Bigcat]

If he'd have been as humble as Patterson and prefered Black women, He would never have been Jack Johnson...


You may as well have called him Leroy Smith... or Charlie Jackson...

Jack was known for his arrogance..

And as for the man who said.. He'd still be champ today...

He would have had a serious job getting the lid off of that Coffin and finding a pair of Reyes small enough to slide those boney hands into snugly..

You asked for that one..........

[anon1]

...he'd still be champ today

Dumb, dumb, d dumb.

[Loewe]

...he'd still be champ today

I think there is something in it, if you don´t take that by word but metaphorically. If he would have been like Louis and Patterson but with his charme, intelligence and talent for selling himself, he would be an icon today similar to Ali. He would be really really big.

[Ramon Rojo]

...he'd have married Bessie Smith and they'd have made sweet sweet music together, including an 'early' rap version of "Minnie The Moocher"

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])


Wasn't it Cab Calloway's song? Not of Bessie Smith.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by My dinner with Conteh
Had Johnson preferred black women and been as humble as Patterson...
Johnson would not been as important as he was.

I grew up in the south, and I know how a lot of old white people thought. Some of these people use to tell me how they would listen to Joe Louis fights on the radio, and pray that someone white would beat him. This is Joe Louis I'm talking about. The great racial barrier breaker. These same people would tell me that black fighters have thicker skulls and an extra leg muscles. These are early 1990's conversations mind you. A great many of the old people I am referring to would not have been alive during Johnson's title reign. I can only imagine what some of those whites would have been like.

The people of Jack Johnson's time needed Johnson's attitude. People needed to see a man stand up to the establishment, not befriend it. Johnson lived his life as a free man when a large part of the population was still enslaved by society. Johnson showed people they did not have to bend over and take it. If Johnson had been more of a kiss ass, he probably never would have got a title shot in the first place.

[janitor]

The people of Jack Johnson's time needed Johnson's attitude. People needed to see a man stand up to the establishment, not befriend it. Johnson lived his life as a free man when a large part of the population was still enslaved by society. Johnson showed people they did not have to bend over and take it. If Johnson had been more of a kiss ass, he probably never would have got a title shot in the first place.

I verry much doubt that Johnson atitude actualy helped him to get a title shot. If anything it only posed an extra barrier.

The key breakthrough came when Tommy Burns won the title. Burns was a Canadian and didnt care what colour his oponents were as long as the money was right. Once he had made as much money as he could by repeatedly fighting commonwealth grade heavyweights he went after the biggest money fights he could get. He fought Johnson when $50 000 was waved under his nose but prior to that he had been in negotiations with Sam Langford and Sam McVea.

Basicaly Johnson got his title shot because his backers were able to put up the money.

[janitor]

I grew up in the south, and I know how a lot of old white people thought. Some of these people use to tell me how they would listen to Joe Louis fights on the radio, and pray that someone white would beat him.

They only had to wait about 15 years.

[Loewe]

Johnson would not been as important as he was.

I grew up in the south, and I know how a lot of old white people thought. Some of these people use to tell me how they would listen to Joe Louis fights on the radio, and pray that someone white would beat him. This is Joe Louis I'm talking about. The great racial barrier breaker. These same people would tell me that black fighters have thicker skulls and an extra leg muscles. These are early 1990's conversations mind you. A great many of the old people I am referring to would not have been alive during Johnson's title reign. I can only imagine what some of those whites would have been like.

The people of Jack Johnson's time needed Johnson's attitude. People needed to see a man stand up to the establishment, not befriend it. Johnson lived his life as a free man when a large part of the population was still enslaved by society. Johnson showed people they did not have to bend over and take it. If Johnson had been more of a kiss ass, he probably never would have got a title shot in the first place.

Interesting post. Worth more than a thought.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Janitor

I verry much doubt that Johnson atitude actualy helped him to get a title shot. If anything it only posed an extra barrier.

The key breakthrough came when Tommy Burns won the title. Burns was a Canadian and didnt care what colour his oponents were as long as the money was right. Once he had made as much money as he could by repeatedly fighting commonwealth grade heavyweights he went after the biggest money fights he could get. He fought Johnson when $50 000 was waved under his nose but prior to that he had been in negotiations with Sam Langford and Sam McVea.

Basicaly Johnson got his title shot because his backers were able to put up the money.
I believe that if Johnson had merely "stayed in his place" he would never have gotten a shot. Johnson got his shot because he was unrelenting in his quest. Johnson had backers willing to put up the money because of his talent, and because of the attention he drew to himself.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Loewe
Interesting post. Worth more than a thought.
Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

[janitor]

I believe that if Johnson had merely "stayed in his place" he would never have gotten a shot. Johnson got his shot because he was unrelenting in his quest. Johnson had backers willing to put up the money because of his talent, and because of the attention he drew to himself.

Johnson was a briliant self promotor. He dressed the part and maintained his brand.

I dont think that there is any reason why he couldnt have got his title fight with a less confrontational atitude. It required a number of elements to fall into place.

1. Burns
2. Suitable financial inducment for Burns
3. Enough public interest in the fight to provide 2.

There was interest in a fight between Johnson and the champion because Joe public knew that he was the best out there and not by a little. Whatever their predudices they wanted to see the best fight the best.

[fists of fury]

I've never agreed with the colour barrier in boxing as it was and I have always had contempt for blind racial prejudice, but I have little sympathy for Jack Johnson.

Why?

I regard him as utterly selfish and self-centered. He enjoyed the chaos he created and didn't he once stop to think about the thousands of lynchings (or worse) that undoubtedly took place because of him?
He drove the final nail into how many black peoples' boxing careers?

A man is free to live his life as he chooses, but Johnson could have been a little more discreet about it. He didn't have to wave the flag in front of the bull. He could have been just a little more cooperative.

As the first black heavyweight champion, he had a certain responsibility and he pissed all over it.
Yes, he was in a position to smile that golden smile and give the establishment the finger, but he was the only one. Those less fortunate suffered dearly for his arrogance and selfishness, and would for decades afterward.

Johnson was not looked upon his own as some hero. He was hated and Joe Louis was repeatedly told never to act like "that fool ******" Johnson.

[Bummy Davis]

Johnson had a lot of fans and a lot of haters, Ali also had fans and haters outside of boxing with the Black muslim thing....could you imagine a white guy today coming into the ring in Klan garb or the rebel flag...I think a lot of people would hate him including white folk because he would be percieved as anti -Black or a hate monger...Ali was percieved as a white hater and even made statements white men were devils. Johnson was a player, white woman were status to him and he did not give a f__K but he did not hate anyone, just stood up....Ali did not hate white but made a statement at the time...the Black Muslims robbed a lot of his money and he was afraid, the BM shook him down pretty good....SSR went with white gals but kept it quiet and Louis was a ladies man but he preferred good looking high Yella Black girls, they were smart enough to see the world was not ready and did not want the backlash....but Johnson felt the rath

[mcvey]

I believe that if Johnson had merely "stayed in his place" he would never have gotten a shot. Johnson got his shot because he was unrelenting in his quest. Johnson had backers willing to put up the money because of his talent, and because of the attention he drew to himself.
Before Johnson ,"Darkies" knew there place ,it was a sad day for the White Race when he fouled poor Tommy Burns into defeat.Now they are all uppity and think they are nearly as good as "White Folks".

[Loewe]

I've never agreed with the colour barrier in boxing as it was and I have always had contempt for blind racial prejudice, but I have little sympathy for Jack Johnson.

Why?

I regard him as utterly selfish and self-centered. He enjoyed the chaos he created and didn't he once stop to think about the thousands of lynchings (or worse) that undoubtedly took place because of him?
He drove the final nail into how many black peoples' boxing careers?

A man is free to live his life as he chooses, but Johnson could have been a little more discreet about it. He didn't have to wave the flag in front of the bull. He could have been just a little more cooperative.

As the first black heavyweight champion, he had a certain responsibility and he pissed all over it.
Yes, he was in a position to smile that golden smile and give the establishment the finger, but he was the only one. Those less fortunate suffered dearly for his arrogance and selfishness, and would for decades afterward.

Johnson was not looked upon his own as some hero. He was hated and Joe Louis was repeatedly told never to act like "that fool ******" Johnson.

That´s all true but other than you I like him for that. He was a true rebell. A free man. He lived by his own rules and got away with it. I think that´s admirable.

Before Johnson ,"Darkies" knew there place ,it was a sad day for the White Race when he fouled poor Tommy Burns into defeat.Now they are all uppity and think they are nearly as good as "White Folks".

:rofl

[heehoo]

One of Louis's conquests,was the skater Sonjia Henne,blonde and beautiful,but you won't find one pic of Joe with a white woman.

He also dated Mae West

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and Lana Turner

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[janitor]

He also dated Mae West

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and Lana Turner

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Boxrec should record these conquests.

[enquirer]

What 'combinations' louis had....A tremendous one two there....:D

[janitor]

What 'combinations' louis had....A tremendous one two there....:D

That is just the tip of the iceberg.

It wasnt just in the ring that Louis built up an impresive resume.

[Jack Presscot]

Disagree, partially.

If they were really pissed off about the fighting aspect of it, someone who have gotten to him during or after the Jeffries fight. Now there were riots, so many were none too pleased, but I think if he'd a stuck with black women and stayed active, the vast majority of people would have gradually accepted it, albeit reluctantly.

The real afront at the time was that he was having sex with white women and flaunting it.

Put those two together and many members of society couldn't accept it.I love to fuck with the RACISTS over on East Side Lounge, by reminding them of why a lot of white girls love Black Men, and they cannot handle it, anymore than White America could back when Jack was pleasurung the Paris Hiltons of his day.

[janitor]

I love to fuck with the RACISTS over on East Side Lounge, by reminding them of why a lot of white girls love Black Men, and they cannot handle it, anymore than White America could back when Jack was pleasurung the Paris Hiltons of his day.

What will you inflict on them if Barack Obama wins the election?

[mcvey]

He also dated Mae West

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and Lana Turner

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
" Come up and see me sometime, Brown Bomb"."Is that a protector your'e wearing ,or are you just glad to see me?"

[The Whaler]

That´s all true but other than you I like him for that. He was a true rebell. A free man. He lived by his own rules and got away with it. I think that´s admirable.


Maybe, but he ended up damaging a lot of people present and future over it. That's the crux of the criticism. Live your life, but don't hurt other people (outside of the ring) by it.

I love to fuck with the RACISTS over on East Side Lounge, by reminding them of why a lot of white girls love Black Men, and they cannot handle it, anymore than White America could back when Jack was pleasurung the Paris Hiltons of his day.

I actually think it has more to do with the fact that you are so obsessed with interracial sex that I can practically see your erection through the computer screen.

[Mendoza]

...he'd still be champ today

Still champ today? I doubt that, but a good musician today, ok.

Jack Johnson was mean with women, and beat his wife within an inch of her life. He also said some things about black women that really should not be repeated on a message board.

[Senya13]

Not sure if people will consider it relevant or not...
Washington Herald on Joe Gans two days before his death.


GANS NOT AWARE OF GRIM REAPER
--------
"Old Master" Chats with Friends and Admirers.
--------
FAILS TO REALIZE CONDITION
--------
Staff Representative of The Washington Herald Calls on Famous Fighter -- "I Believe I'll Pull Through All Right, Soon," Gans Whispers Feebly--Herford Present.
--------
Staff Correspondence The Washington Herald.

Baltimore. Aug. 8.--Sustained almost constantly by oxygen and hypodermic injections that hold tenaciously to the tiniest shreds of vitality. Joe Gans, famous ring master and for many years nonpareil champion of all the lighter fistic classes, clings incomprehensively to life as he lies dull and indifferent at the home of his mother in this city.

He is away down in the valley, with the shadows about to close over him at any moment. His many friends and admirers who have called to see him feel a pang at the sight of his worn frame and drawn features.

Not a semblance has he of the former fighting machine of the ring that plugged and bored almost inhumanly at other fighting machines. Old Father Time is already monotoning off the count.

Gans now seems unable to realize his condition. At the start of his journey across the continent to "die in mammy's arms" he was apparently well aware that the reaper was only a few hours distant. Reaching home, though, he drifted off into a sort of indifference to his impending death, and frequently remarks, with all assurance, "I believe I'll pull through all right soon."

The champion was particularly delighted to see his old manager, Al Herford, on whom he has relied as a brother, and who has helped pilot him to many victories, incidentally, it might be mentioned, making a number of comfortable fortunes for the promoter.

Clings to Al Herford.

"You stay with me, Al," he pleaded, while being transferred to the ambulance at Union Station in Baltimore.

And Al did, recalling and chatting of old contests that cheered up the sick man perceptibly. At one time he was at the side of Gans for nearly seven hours continuously. In fact, every spare chance he can get he drops in to see how "Joe getting along."

In all the chatting and conversation not a word is spoken of the approaching end. Scores of admirers of the game little man have called since he reached his home here Friday afternoon, but Gans, while greeting them all cheerfully, though somewhat pathetically, seems powerless to grasp the meaning of the unusual stream of visitors.

All of these men have stood by Gans as one of the "whitest" followers of the squared circle ever since he began to attract and display that tenaciousness and skill in the ring that bore down many a confident opponent and blasted the hopes of aspiring communities. Many are men, too, with the "race question" and incidental high feeling well developed in them, but the question never bobbed up where Joe has been concerned. That phase of Joe's life and conduct has been the most powerful force in his great and undiminished popularity with the white followers of the sport. Always he has recognized and quietly observed that line of demarcation between the social status of the white race and his own. Never has he attempted to overstep the bounds to give cause for offense to the least critical. He has met scores of men, big politically, financially, and in other lines, but he has never been presumptuous or attempted presumption.

Was Great Favorite.

His conduct at his flourishing hotel in Baltimore, the Goldfield, serves as an illustration of this. The Goldfield does a great trade with white patrons-all, of course, sporting men of varying degrees and status, and principally, too, because it has become a sort of clearing house for fight news of every class.

Here Gans had been greeted on an equal basis.

"Hello, Joe; how's things?" "You're getting flabby, Joe, I don't believe you're good for a Philadelphia finish bout," "What do you think of Ketchell and Langford?" and so on, were the exchanges.

Joe possessed a great good tact in gauging these calls from the sporting men and nespaper writers, and he seemed always to have it in constant use. In fact, with Gans alone concerned, the race question seemed apparently to obliterate itself.

Gans is the exceptional champion ringster who will pass to the great beyond with an undiminished multitude of admirers--"the whitest man in the ring."

[ThinBlack]

He probably would have been more accepted by the mainstream, but then he wouldn't have been Jack Johnson.

[PowerPuncher]

Johnson would not been as important as he was.

I grew up in the south, and I know how a lot of old white people thought. Some of these people use to tell me how they would listen to Joe Louis fights on the radio, and pray that someone white would beat him. This is Joe Louis I'm talking about. The great racial barrier breaker. These same people would tell me that black fighters have thicker skulls and an extra leg muscles. These are early 1990's conversations mind you. A great many of the old people I am referring to would not have been alive during Johnson's title reign. I can only imagine what some of those whites would have been like.

The people of Jack Johnson's time needed Johnson's attitude. People needed to see a man stand up to the establishment, not befriend it. Johnson lived his life as a free man when a large part of the population was still enslaved by society. Johnson showed people they did not have to bend over and take it. If Johnson had been more of a kiss ass, he probably never would have got a title shot in the first place.

Good post, people point to Jack Johnson's attitude and the fact he'd be more accepted if he kowtowed. But I also think there would have been race riots if Joe Louis was around in 1910 ko'ing Jeffries. Many people of this era were just were that tribalistic and racist

[mcvey]

...he'd have married Bessie Smith and they'd have made sweet sweet music together, including an 'early' rap version of "Minnie The Moocher"

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
He was boyfriend of "Ada Brick Top Smith" , the night club entertainer.
Seen below ,standing in the middle, next to Jelly Roll Morton.

Truth is some times stranger than fiction.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

Still champ today? I doubt that, but a good musician today, ok.

Jack Johnson was mean with women, and beat his wife within an inch of her life. He also said some things about black women that really should not be repeated on a message board.
Johnson said all the black women he went with two timed him,but reiterated "I could love a black woman"
Nothing distasteful about that,if you have any primary proof to the contrary please produce it, otherwise stop trying to rewrite history ,and attributing statements to Johnson he never made .
N.B. He was a lover of black entertainer, Ada" Brick Top" Smith, so thats your bullshit blown out of the water once again.:good

[mcvey]

Still champ today? I doubt that, but a good musician today, ok.

Jack Johnson was mean with women, and beat his wife within an inch of her life. He also said some things about black women that really should not be repeated on a message board.
I often wonder if it's just coincidence that you hate Johnson,and very often disparage Louis. You seem to be more "relaxed" about Langford, is that because he was a good n****r ,who knew his place?

Is it also a coincidence,I wonder, that your hero,Jim Jeffries is the absolute king of the "White Champions ",the man who ,when asked if he would defend against Johnson,should he defeat Hart ? Replied," I am not into fighting skunks yet, when there are no white men left to fight ,I shall retire."

"I will not take a chance on losing my title to a black man"


Is it further coincidence that your current heroes are the Klit Bros, two gentlemen without any "taint" of colour in their blood?

What inflames you so much about Jack Johnson ?

Is it that he put his big black d**k into white women,and told the white man to mind his own business, and go f***k himself if he didn't like it?

[janitor]

What inflames you so much about Jack Johnson ?


It is a tribute to Johnson, that he can inflame people today.

[mcvey]

It is a tribute to Johnson, that he can inflame people today.
The same type of people he inflamed a century ago.