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View Full Version : Sugar Ray Robinson - Who Didn't he face and what would have happened?

PowerPuncher
10-25-2008, 02:46 PM
I'm continuing my series of 'Who Didn't he face and what would have happened' that started with Hagler and now looking at the universally accepted P4P no1 Sugar Ray Robinson

He didn't face many of the black murderers rows fighters, probably because of the usual risk-reward that goes with boxing. But how does he do against them? Many of these fighters are better than anyone Ray faced, this doesn't mean he necessarilly loses.

Charles Burley - we all know he was considered no1 contender to SRR

Cocoa Kid - Coloured Welter champion

Holman Williams - started at LW and became 1 of the top Welterweights of the Armstrong period with wins over Cocoa Kid and Charles Burley aswell as wins over Archie Moore and . I wonder why he never gets near the same accolades as Burley.

Williams lost decisions against Cerdan and Lamotta at the age of 34 - does anyone have reports of these, were they close?

Lloyd Marshall - A middleweight with wins over Ezzard Charles, Burley, Lamotta, Holman WIlliams, Joey Maxim and Chase. This particularly hurts Robinson as Marshall beat a Prime LaMotta, yet Robinson fought Lamotta so many times.

Marcel Cerdan - lost his title to Lamotta with an injured shoulder. What if Ray faces a Cerdan instead of Lamotta and Cerdan's shoulder is fine?

Charles - the black dynamite king, with a who's who of boxing resume. Must have been P4P level at the same time as SRR. Up until 1942 Charles fought around the MW limit, but would go upto 170s soon enough, this would be best at a catch weight. Has Robinson got a hope in hell?

Moore - after Moore beat Maxim this fight was negotiated, Ray offered the champion 30% of the purse and not a penny more, Archie asked his wife to get his coat and left. A real pity this never happened. Could Robinson have outslicked the aged champ?

Bivins - another legend with wins over Charles, Burley, Marshall, Moore. A LHW and future HW so nothing against SRR for not facing him. But how does it go down at 168-175?

So how does he do against them and how does not facing them affect his legacy?
Nemesis
10-25-2008, 02:49 PM
Charles Burley - we all know he was considered no1 contender to SRR




When and at what weight?
Sweet Pea
10-25-2008, 04:05 PM
Charles, Moore, and Bivins aren't really realistic as missed opponents for a natural WW to have faced.

Marshall and Williams look like two good candidates for upsets in at least one fight in a series. Cerdan at MW vs Robinson would've been a hell of a fight IMO as well.
McGrain
10-25-2008, 06:37 PM
When and at what weight?

How about 1949 at middleweight?

The fight was nearly made in 1946 - but surprise, surprise, Sugar doubled his demands and the fight couldn't be made. Burley's destruction of light-heavyweight contender, regarded as one of the world's hardest puncher p4p, may have had something to do with the sudden lift in price.
McGrain
10-25-2008, 06:54 PM
Although Burley-Robinson is the one I expend most thought on, Cocoa Kid is the mess he should really have cleared up. After all, that was a literal duck, i in circumstances that were understandable.
Nemesis
10-26-2008, 05:31 AM
How about 1949 at middleweight?

.
Robinson wasnt champ in '49
McGrain
10-26-2008, 05:34 AM
Robinson wasnt champ in '49

Yeah, i don't think that really matters. The fight was mooted first before Sugar came to the WW title - I don't see why a title has to be at steak for the fight to be considered.
Jbuz
10-26-2008, 05:37 AM
Joe Louis.

Robinson early KO.
Nemesis
10-26-2008, 06:02 AM
Yeah, i don't think that really matters. The fight was mooted first before Sugar came to the WW title - I don't see why a title has to be at steak for the fight to be considered.


my point is people make out like Burley was no.1 contender to Robinson's Title (as in the 1st post), which was obviously never the case.
McGrain
10-26-2008, 06:04 AM
my point is people make out like Burley was no.1 contender to Robinson's Title (as in the 1st post), which was obviously never the case.

Well that's true. He was, in my opinion, the fighter most likely to defeat peak Sugar, though.
Nemesis
10-26-2008, 06:09 AM
Well that's true. He was, in my opinion, the fighter most likely to defeat peak Sugar, though.

Possibly. Burley's problem is his slightly boring style failing to impress the judges. It'd be an intriguing fight for sure, if not totally entertaining
McGrain
10-26-2008, 06:30 AM
Possibly. Burley's problem is his slightly boring style failing to impress the judges. It'd be an intriguing fight for sure, if not totally entertaining

I disagree with you about his style - I don't think he was boring at all. He fought with single shots at 175 and on occasion at 160 but there are plenty of fights where he was extremely aggressive, including his celebrated win over Moore - and the first round KO win over Phil McQuillan that affectively scuppered him in NY.

I think you might be right about Robinson-Burley though - very tight, very tactical, maybe dull. But could anything conducted at such a high level be anything other than pure gold?
PowerPuncher
10-27-2008, 03:51 PM
my point is people make out like Burley was no.1 contender to Robinson's Title (as in the 1st post), which was obviously never the case.

Yes but Robinson was happy to face everyone except Burley at 147. I'm sure if it was the biggest payday out there he would have taken the fight, although I think at 1 stage Robinson was offered career high money for the Burley fight, McGrain may know better than I
Nemesis
10-27-2008, 04:50 PM
Yes but Robinson was happy to face everyone except Burley at 147. I'm sure if it was the biggest payday out there he would have taken the fight, although I think at 1 stage Robinson was offered career high money for the Burley fight, McGrain may know better than I

That's the thing for me, I dont think Robinson actively avoided Burley, moreso considered the big risk/low reward of taking on the un-media friendly Burley.

If there was a big demand for the bout, it would have happened...
PowerPuncher
10-27-2008, 10:00 PM
That's the thing for me, I dont think Robinson actively avoided Burley, moreso considered the big risk/low reward of taking on the un-media friendly Burley.

If there was a big demand for the bout, it would have happened...

Robinson was the type of fighter who'd fight anyone if enough money was in it. I'm pretty sure he was offered career high money for Burley though. Burley was a big danger and potential defeat to Robinson, more so than anyone he faced. Robinson would have been favourate to win, but it would be a close contest, maybe the sort of contest that reduces both life and career spans. So he did avoid Burley, he was smart, but we were robbed of a classic