What fighters did SRR beat that were better than Burley, C. Kid and H. Williams?

[Bokaj]

What fighters did he beat that you consider better than one or more of these three?

[McGrain]

Kid G was better than the Cocoa Kid. I think Williams and Burley were both better than anyone Sugar fought.

Troubling.

[the cobra]

Kid Gavilan was better than all except Burley IMO.

The Cocoa Kid was great, but apart from his clear edge in the Williams series, He didn't do much more than LaMotta.

[TommyV]

Obviously Mr Henry Jackson on a P4P scale, though it's far to say he was past his best at this point. I don't think he beat any fighter I would rate more highly than Burley. I'm not educated enough on Holman Williams and Cocoa Kid. I would say possibly Sammy Angott. LaMotta and Fullmer rank close aswell. Kid Gavilan aswell has too be close to those guys.

[Bokaj]

Kid G was better than the Cocoa Kid. I think Williams and Burley were both better than anyone Sugar fought.

Troubling.

Yeah. For me that makes it hard to have him as nr. 1 p4p, as great as he undoubtly was.

[Sweet Pea]

Gavilan was as good or better than all of them in my book, at WW anyway.

[McGrain]

Yeah. For me that makes it hard to have him as nr. 1 p4p, as great as he undoubtly was.

He was a splendid and wonderful fighter - but arguably he did not meet the very best in his talent pool. It's a tough one.

He did beat quite a few fighters who were better than Kid, though, and let's not forget that some would have Gavilian above Williams. And even Burley. I think it's reasonable to have him above Williams.

[McGrain]

Gavilan was as good or better than all of them in my book, at WW anyway.

Put it this way - Gavilan, Williams and Burley were all in the same sort of class, though as you know, I consider there was some reasomable distance between Burley and the other two.

[Sweet Pea]

Put it this way - Gavilan, Williams and Burley were all in the same sort of class, though as you know, I consider there was some reasomable distance between Burley and the other two.How though, considering Williams's success against Burley and Gavilan's overall success and ability? I just don't see how Burley can be considered so highly aside from the fact that people like to assume this and that were he not ducked so often. I think Williams clearly proved himself in Burley's class, while I can't see a reasonable distance between Gavilan and any other WW aside from maybe Robinson, though even they were clearly not leagues apart.

[McGrain]

How though, considering Williams's success against Burley and Gavilan's overall success and ability? I just don't see how Burley can be considered so highly aside from the fact that people like to assume this and that were he not ducked so often. I think Williams clearly proved himself in Burley's class, while I can't see a reasonable distance between Gavilan and any other WW aside from maybe Robinson, though even they were clearly not leagues apart.

Using the head to head series between Williams and Burley is dangerous. The NC throw out was doubtful and Burley was well ahead on the cards. In Williams' second victory, Burley had dropped Williams multiple times and bounced him all over the ring before throwing his shoulder in the 9th and winning only one more round between then and the 15th.

Burley is a better puncher with a much longer reach who doesn't have worse chin - you think the Kid could go the distance twice with Charles, could outpunch Billy Smith? Burley and Kid belong in the same weight division, basically, but Burley beat Archie Moore.

KG wouldn't beat Archie Moore. Burley was a better fighter. He had better equipment. KG is arguably a better WW but Charley still would have kicked the shit out of him at the weight.

[Mantequilla]

Burley may have moved up in weight better but it doesn't mean he's automatically going to whip Gavilan at Welter.It's a tough fight for both of them most likely.

Gavilan was one of those fighters like Wilfredo Gomez that were awesome in their comfort zone.Wouldn't matter if he was fighting someone like Pac who drains himself and jumps around five hundred weight classes..he'd go in with a Gomez at 122 and get butchered.

Gavilan i tend to think is like that.Immensely difficult for anyone at Welter.

[Sweet Pea]

Burley may have moved up in weight better but it doesn't mean he's automatically going to whip Gavilan at Welter.Exactly. I don't agree with that kind of logic at all, it's been disproven too many times, recently with a guy like James Toney. Certain fighters are just better able to suit their styles and frames to higher weights. Doesn't mean they're more effective at lower weights as well.

[McGrain]

Burley may have moved up in weight better but it doesn't mean he's automatically going to whip Gavilan at Welter.It's a tough fight for both of them most likely.

A tough fight, but little to do with weightmaking - more to do with a longer reach, more raw strength, more power, not less accurate, faster...there's a nice list that Burley can fall back upon before we have to start worrrying about styles.

[Sweet Pea]

A tough fight, but little to do with weightmaking - more to do with a longer reach, more raw strength, more power, not less accurate, faster...there's a nice list that Burley can fall back upon before we have to start worrrying about styles.

What was Burley's reach? Gavilan had very long arms himself and held a height advantage over Burley. I don't understand the speed advantage claim, as I considered Gavilan to be very fast and explosive at his best. Burley may have had better defensive reflexes and movements, but I doubt he had better overall speed. And very few if any WW's are handling Gavilan in close with raw strength. I doubt Burley would.

[McGrain]

What was Burley's reach? Gavilan had very long arms himself and held a height advantage over Burley. I don't understand the speed advantage claim, as I considered Gavilan to be very fast and explosive at his best. Burley may have had better defensive reflexes and movements, but I doubt he had better overall speed. And very few if any WW's are handling Gavilan in close with raw strength. I doubt Burley would.

74".

Gavilan was fast, but i'm pretty content that Burley has faster hands and is quicker "in out" than Gavilan had, and I mean past peak MW burley. He certainly had quicker reflexes.

Points about moving up in weight are more than fair enough, but if Burley is able to match men for strength up to LHW, I think he's a fair bet to outmuscle Gavilan. He certainly was able to maul Zivic in clinches.

[Minotauro]

Using the head to head series between Williams and Burley is dangerous. The NC throw out was doubtful and Burley was well ahead on the cards. In Williams' second victory, Burley had dropped Williams multiple times and bounced him all over the ring before throwing his shoulder in the 9th and winning only one more round between then and the 15th.

I agree with what your saying about the head to head thing but Burley was closer to his prime during there fights Holman had much more fights by the time they met. And while the Cocoa Kid loses are a negative he did win a trilogy with Lloyd Marshall a man who beat Burley. And while way past his best arguably deserved the decision against LaMotta. I don't understand why ppl have Burley top 20 p4p and Holman barely makes top 50. There is very little between the two guys for me these two guys are like Barrera and Morales very close in rating.

[PowerPuncher]

74".

Gavilan was fast, but i'm pretty content that Burley has faster hands and is quicker "in out" than Gavilan had, and I mean past peak MW burley. He certainly had quicker reflexes.

Points about moving up in weight are more than fair enough, but if Burley is able to match men for strength up to LHW, I think he's a fair bet to outmuscle Gavilan. He certainly was able to maul Zivic in clinches.

Looking at them both on film, I'm very impressed with Burley's footwork, he'd always be out of range, but in a position to slip into a beautiful. I think Burley is a better bigger puncher. He's a better counter puncher and much better timing. Looking at them (and I'm a damn good judge of strength, thats my background) I think Burley is ALLOT stronger than Gavilan

Gavilan is a better stick and move jabber type. I disagree that Burley is faster, Gavilan possibly has the edge in speed and combination throwing but Burley throws better pot shot timed effective punches.

In a head to head I would pick Burley to win a closer but clear decision, say 9-6, maybe knocking Gavilan down a couples of times for good measure

[the cobra]

Oriignally posted by PowerPuncher
In a head to head I would pick Burley to win a closer but clear decision, say 9-6, maybe knocking Gavilan down a couples of times for good measure
Gavilan was down 2 or 3 times in a career of nearly 150 fights. Burley could possibly drop him once, but "a couple times for good measure" is ridiculous.

[PowerPuncher]

Gavilan was down 2 or 3 times in a career of nearly 150 fights. Burley could possibly drop him once, but "a couple times for good measure" is ridiculous.

Not ridicolous, Burley is a supreme puncher, with great accuracy, only 1 fighter on Gavilan's record compares, Sugar himself, Basilo put Gavilan down pretty hard, now the Kid may have been past his prime but I think Burley does the same based on styles and Burley being that good

[the cobra]

Oriignally posted by PowerPuncher
Not ridicolous, Burley is a supreme puncher, with great accuracy, only 1 fighter on Gavilan's record compares, Sugar himself, Basilo put Gavilan down pretty hard, now the Kid may have been past his prime but I think Burley does the same based on styles and Burley being that good
Given that he went 25 rounds with Robinson and never went down, and the only times he was down was early in his career to Ike Williams and past his best to Basilio, I don't think Burley would drop him. Once, maybe, but a couple of times for good measure is not happening.