Bruno-Witherspoon judges - what the hell?

[DamonD]

Just checking up on the scores for this WBA title fight in 1986, which ended TKO11 to Witherspoon.

Carlos Sucre had it 97-94...6 to Witherspoon, 3 to Bruno, 1 drawn. Okay, fair enough.

Marcos A. Torres had it 98-96...4 to Witherspoon, 2 to Bruno, 4 drawn. 4 drawn? Get off the damn fence, man.

Yet worse...Takeshi Shimakawa had it 99-96...4 to Witherspoon, 1 to Bruno, 5 drawn.

What kind of excuse is there for such godawful lazy judging like that? It was competative throughout but 4 or 5 drawn rounds is damn ridiculous. That's up there with the guy that had 5 drawn rounds before the stoppage in Rahman-Tua I.

I can understand one or two but if you're just giving drawn round after drawn round, seemingly rather than actually thinking about who deserved it more, then doing something other than judging like flower arranging instead seems an option. Neither Bruno-Witherspoon or Rahman-Tua I were all that difficult fights to score for.

[salsanchezfan]

......The Japanese judge in the Hagler-Duran fight scored SIX rounds even.

Unfathomable.

[MRBILL]

Chit happens.... Spoon was porky at 234 pounds against a chisled Bruno in 1986, but I knew / figured that Spoon would prevail... Jesus, he really KTFO of Bruno in the later rds over in England.... Bruno was crushed by a series of right hands in the corner... Bruno was out, and needed to be dragged back to his corner..... Spoon was sloppy, but effective... Cheers...

MR.BILL

[Robbi]

Chit happens.... Spoon was porky at 234 pounds against a chisled Bruno in 1986, but I knew / figured that Spoon would prevail... Jesus, he really KTFO of Bruno in the later rds over in England.... Bruno was crushed by a series of right hands in the corner... Bruno was out, and needed to be dragged back to his corner..... Spoon was sloppy, but effective... Cheers...

MR.BILL

I watched this fight a while back. Not a bad fight. Bruno was doing very well until he ran out of gas and Witherspoon capatalized.

So what guy are you in the avatar? The George Foreman lookalike? :D

[Russell]

......The Japanese judge in the Hagler-Duran fight scored SIX rounds even.

Unfathomable.

:lol::lol::lol:

[radianttwilight]

I'm not as opposed to drawn rounds as most others are.

I'd rather see a drawn round than an incorrectly judged round.

[Dave's Top Ten]

I'm not as opposed to drawn rounds as most others are.

I'd rather see a drawn round than an incorrectly judged round.

Drawn rounds are ok if they're not simply a result of indecisiveness / incompetence. You could make a case for the first round of Hagler Duran being a draw, but no more than that. 6 rounds drawn, that's a joke.

[fists of fury]

I never scored the fight officially, but my overall impression was that Bruno ahead.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Marcos A. Torres had it 98-96...4 to Witherspoon, 2 to Bruno, 4 drawn. 4 drawn? Get off the damn fence, man.



This was Torres' first fight after his disgraceful card for Gomez-Lockridge and his ensuing ban. Obviously Don welcomed him back with open arms. Just two rounds for Bruno, ridiculous. :huh

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'm not as opposed to drawn rounds as most others are.

I'd rather see a drawn round than an incorrectly judged round.


Me too.

[My dinner with Conteh]

......The Japanese judge in the Hagler-Duran fight scored SIX rounds even.

Unfathomable.


A Swiss judge in the Carmelo Bossi-Jose Hernandez world light middleweight fight in 1971 scored it 150-150. Every round even. He later died from severing splinters of the arse following this permanent fence-sitting. :hey

[AlFrancis]

I was at this fight, great atmosphere, great fight, Bruno gave it his all, and youv'e got judges who can't be arsed scoring the fight. Wrong!

Matter of interest; a young Paul Hodkinson made his debut on this bill.

[DamonD]

I've got no problems with drawn rounds, though I extremely rarely only score them myself.

But when you've got a judge scoring 5 drawn rounds out of 10 completed, that's just lazy and borderline incompetant.

Didn't one of the judges in Holyfield-Tyson I hand out 5 or 6 drawn rounds or something too?

[AlFrancis]

I think the big problem is that the scoring system isn't used properly.
It should be 10-9 for a close round
10-8 for a clear round
10 -7 for a dominant round when someone is in trouble.
And so on. In other words the points should be used, and while we're at it go back to the 5 point must while system. I don't think we need more than 5 points to seperate 2 fighters.
I don't agree that a KD is an automatic losing round especially a 2 point penalty. A fighter can be Knocked down in a round, hurt even and still come back to win the round even if he's done all the good work at the beginning of the round it should be taken into consideration.

Any thoughts?

[Bigcat]

I have judged a few fights, and i try very hard to steer clear of drawing rounds, and if you watch very intensely and impartially , its easy to score rounds either way and only in very extreme cases giving drawn rounds...

God bless.. Incidentally i had Bruno ahead at the time, i thought he was busier in the early rounds, but Tim was wearing the lactic acid filled monster down as rounds ticked by, He out muscled himself.. I remember the end coming out of nothing , they were both in the centre looking composed when they both let right hands go.. Tims got through first and Frank started to reel with his mouth wide open, he stumbled back and Tim just bowled over two or 3 heavy bombing right over arm punches (one as Frank was all but down or sat on the bottom rope) Frank actually wasn't down, it was for that reason that the referee allowed Tim to carry on punching, he was sat on the bottom rope in the corner........

[Russell]

but Tim was wearing the lactic acid filled monster down as rounds ticked by

Comedy gold. :yep :rofl :rofl

[DamonD]

Bruno has mentioned how Witherspoon looked kinda chubby, especially compared to his own ripped frame, and there were lots of rumours going around about disputes between Witherpoon and King (which was of course true).

He felt very confident indeed. But as the fight went on, while he could feel himself getting more and more tired, he could see that Witherspoon was still fine despite apparently not being in such great shape. He had the feeling that Tim was creeping back into the fight with each round, and that he'd need to do something to halt Witherspoon's momentum.

We know how that ended of course.

[TBooze]

A judge should never score a round even, he is there to judge.

Thw worse case I remember was when Billy Hardy went to Italy to fight Belcastro and one judge scored the first eleven rounds even, before giving the final round to the Italian...

[DamonD]

Whoa, really? Damn...

[JohnThomas1]

A judge should never score a round even, he is there to judge.


He might judge the round to be even :lol:

[Nemesis]

A judge should never score a round even, he is there to judge.
..

I emphatically disagree with this. Some rounds there just isnt enough to separate two fighters, I take it you havent seen 'The entertainer' fight much

[TIGEREDGE]

terrible tim was kings fighter. we all know what influence that can have on judges scoring

[TBooze]

He might judge the round to be even :lol:

If you think the round is dead even give it to the champion or in a non title fight, the premier fighter of the two.;)

[fists of fury]

Scoring rounds even is a neccesity sometimes. Forcing judges to score a round for one or the other fighter can lead to lop-sided decisions in bouts that seem close to those at ringside.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Scoring rounds even is a neccesity sometimes. Forcing judges to score a round for one or the other fighter can lead to lop-sided decisions in bouts that seem close to those at ringside.


I agree with this. There are loads of opening rounds that fit here.

[Russell]

I think even rounds have their place in boxing. Of course it becomes excessive and a tool for judges to cheat when used excessively, but that applies to plenty of things.

Some rounds simply ARE even. Nothing more to it. Neither fighter deserves certain rounds more then the other, so why give one of them the benefit of the doubt in said round?

[mr. magoo]

I don't remember anything about the scoring, but that overhand right that sent Bruno down was resounding.

[TBooze]

Scoring rounds even is a neccesity sometimes. Forcing judges to score a round for one or the other fighter can lead to lop-sided decisions in bouts that seem close to those at ringside.

That is a flaw in 10 point must, that judges hide behind.

[My dinner with Conteh]

So, you've never scored an even round then?


ps. Try not to answer with "but i'm not a judge" and then put a ;) on the end of it.

[TBooze]

So, you've never scored an even round then?


ps. Try not to answer with "but i'm not a judge" and then put a ;) on the end of it.

OK;)


Seriously though, no, if I think a round is dead even, the benefit of the doubt goes to the Champion, or (in a non title fight) the perceived premier fighter.

Actually I lie, I watched on SKY some years back that Minter fight where Gibbs threw both out for not throwing a punch for three rounds, they were the exception to prove the rule there is no such thing as a even round........;) ooops:patsch

[My dinner with Conteh]

OK;)


Seriously though, no, if I think a round is dead even, the benefit of the doubt goes to the Champion, or (in a non title fight) the perceived premier fighter.

Actually I lie, I watched on SKY some years back that Minter fight where Gibbs threw both out for not throwing a punch for three rounds, they were the exception to prove the rule there is no such thing as a even round........;) ooops:patsch


Why should the 'perceived premier fighter' have the benefit of the doubt? Peceived by, what, most magazine covers? What about Benn-Eubnak rematch for example?

[TBooze]

Why should the 'perceived premier fighter' have the benefit of the doubt? Peceived by, what, most magazine covers? What about Benn-Eubnak rematch for example?

Yes magazine space would be one way of identifying who was the premier/premium fighter. It is a personal perception thing, much like judging itself.

As for your example; IMO Eubank was the premier fighting going in as Benn was looking for redemption after the first fight.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yes magazine space would be one way of identifying who was the premier/premium fighter. It is a personal perception thing, much like judging itself.

As for your example; IMO Eubank was the premier fighting going in as Benn was looking for redemption after the first fight.


So Eubank deserved the nod then?

[TBooze]

So Eubank deserved the nod then?

I went there, but had a nose bleed place though, but figured Benn had won easy (9-3 if memory serves me right); but watching the replay on TV I remember scoring it 6-6.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I went there, but had a nose bleed place though, but figured Benn had won easy (9-3 if memory serves me right); but watching the replay on TV I remember scoring it 6-6.


I went too and I thought Benn won easy and, i agree, on replay it was really close.


But, you scoring a draw? I thought you didn't sit on the fence? :p

[TBooze]

I went too and I thought Benn won easy and, i agree, on replay it was really close.


But, you scoring a draw? I thought you didn't sit on the fence? :p

LOL..... You got me!

[My dinner with Conteh]

But the Benn-Eubank fight is why I always like to listen to the consensus before spouting out about 'robberies'.

[TBooze]

But the Benn-Eubank fight is why I always like to listen to the consensus before spouting out about 'robberies'.

I rarely (of course there are some) think boxing has robberies, normally a robbery to 95% of the fancy, is a fairly close fight where the consensus bias someone....

[DamonD]

You talking about Benn-Eubank II?

I watched it live at the time, never seen it since. I actually thought the draw was correct...but bear in mind, while Benn was awesome, I liked Eubank even more so maybe there was a little bias there.

If it wasn't a draw, I don't think I could've given it to Eubank. Bit too much posing, from Benn at times too (in mocking Eubank) but mostly Eubank...but then that was quite common for him post-Watson II.

[Unforgiven]

I dont have a problem with drawn rounds at all.

If you score a round for fighter A, but you concede that the round was close and that giving it to fighter B would not have been totally out of order, then I dont see the problem with accepting that marking the round even is defensible too.

Therefore, in a fight where MANY of the rounds are close could-go-either-way type rounds, I dont see the problem if a judge comes up with scoring MANY rounds even. I just dont see the problem.

What's the worse that can happen ? A fight ends up a DRAW or VERY CLOSE on a scorecard - what's wrong with that ?
I always thought maybe more fights should be called draws. I dont see a problem. I dont get any thrill out of controversial split-decisions and constant arguments about scoring that are so commonplace in this game. In a "could-go-either-way" type fight I believe a draw is the fairest result". Likewise, in a could-have-gone-the-other-way round I think an even score is fair.

A judge's job is to judge the round. A judge who scores 6 out of 12 round even simply judged that neither fighter established an advantage over the other in those rounds - which is actually MORE LOGICAL than saying "I judged Bruno to have gained the advantage in that round, BUT I can see how Witherspoon might have gained the advantage too. But shame on you for scoring it even" or , "Yeah, I can understand you giving those three or four rounds to the other fighter, but I cannot understand how the other judge has ALL those same rounds even " !

I dont think a judge's job is to find a winner at any cost, so that his "judge's eye" has to be so fine-tuned as to make the subtleties of his decision almost arbitrary.

That's just my take though. I realize some of you have another perspective, and even rounds just totally piss you off. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

I rarely (of course there are some) think boxing has robberies

Do you think Whitaker-Ramirez was a robbery?

[Holmes' Jab]

I was never fussed on Eubank personally (despite his footballing allegences) and rooted for Benn as he was one of my fave fighters back then. I don't think rematch was a 'robbery' and thought Benn won, I've scored it a few times since (in Benn's favour by about two rounds).

[Holmes' Jab]

Do you think Whitaker-Ramirez was a robbery?


Daylight. So was his draw against Chavez. :-(

[Holmes' Jab]

On the "even rounds" debate, I don't award too many of 'em whilst scoring fights. If the general demographic and action of a round has been very, very close to call I'd usually award the round to the fighter I percieve to be moreso the agressor, so long as it's effective.

[ChrisPontius]

On the "even rounds" debate, I don't award too many of 'em whilst scoring fights. If the general demographic and action of a round has been very, very close to call I'd usually award the round to the fighter I percieve to be moreso the agressor, so long as it's effective.

I score a bit different; i'd call such a round a draw.

The reason is i think it's not fair to give one fighter a 10 9 round based on a VERY slight advantage (if any), while he may lose an other round one-sided or clearly, but still have the same 10 9 score. When neither has a clear edge, i don't think it's fair to look for reasons to score it for one or an other.

[AlFrancis]

I think the big problem is that the scoring system isn't used properly.
It should be 10-9 for a close round
10-8 for a clear round
10 -7 for a dominant round when someone is in trouble.
And so on. In other words the points should be used, and while we're at it go back to the 5 point must while system. I don't think we need more than 5 points to seperate 2 fighters, probably no more than 3 and definitely no more than 4.
I don't agree that a KD is an automatic losing round especially a 2 point penalty. A fighter can be Knocked down in a round, hurt even and still come back to win the round. If he's done all the good work at the beginning of the round it should be taken into consideration.
This wouldn't neccessarily prevent drawn fights but if the judge sees it as a draw after this, then so be it.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I think the big problem is that the scoring system isn't used properly.
It should be 10-9 for a close round
10-8 for a clear round
10 -7 for a dominant round when someone is in trouble.
And so on. In other words the points should be used, and while we're at it go back to the 5 point must while system. I don't think we need more than 5 points to seperate 2 fighters, probably no more than 3 and definitely no more than 4.
I don't agree that a KD is an automatic losing round especially a 2 point penalty. A fighter can be Knocked down in a round, hurt even and still come back to win the round. If he's done all the good work at the beginning of the round it should be taken into consideration.
This wouldn't neccessarily prevent drawn fights but if the judge sees it as a draw after this, then so be it.



I couldn't agree more with this. In the days of the 5-point system, even though the concept was the same, there semed more willingness to score 5-2s and the like.

[Bigcat]

If I ever scored a round even , it would be an absolute last resort, I always seek every angle to award a certain fighter the edge if i can , no matter how small the edge.. Nothing more dissapointing than hearing a draw being announced, its like an anti climax...

If i was a commissioner and saw more than 5 rounds drawn by a judge i would be very reluctant to use that gentleman again... Decisive judges that know how to devide two boxers impartially are very talented people , They should be watched more closely, there are far too many decisions that go astray nowadays .. How often have you seen a controversial fight on points, and how many have had a certain judge award close rounds a draw rather than watch a bit closer to make a winner in that round.. Drawn rounds and controversial decisions go hand in hand...

[TBooze]

Do you think Whitaker-Ramirez was a robbery?

I think that was probably a fix... but that is splitting hairs.

[TBooze]

I couldn't agree more with this. In the days of the 5-point system, even though the concept was the same, there semed more willingness to score 5-2s and the like.

No, it does not work, it has been tried before. One judge in a Czyz fight scored it to Bobby 100/72 without there being no knock downs, it just looked silly.

[AlFrancis]

No, it does not work, it has been tried before. One judge in a Czyz fight scored it to Bobby 100/72 without there being no knock downs, it just looked silly.
20 round fight was it?
what did the other judges score it?

[TBooze]

20 round fight was it?
what did the other judges score it?

It was scored on ten point must (thus was a 10 rounder)

Czyz won 100-89 on the other two cards.

[JohnThomas1]

It was scored on ten point must (thus was a 10 rounder)

Czyz won 100-89 on the other two cards.

You and Dinner/Al are talking about two completely different thangs.

[TBooze]

You and Dinner/Al are talking about two completely different thangs.

Oh right, that explains it!