Bute Andrade - outrageous refereeing

[TheDuke]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Kegsy]

Tell me about it...Andrade got hell screwed.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

I remember Bute always getting rocked during the amatuers.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

If that was me, i would have knocked out the fucken ref.

Some things just need to be done. And the ref needed to know.

What a disgrace. Fucken cheat ref!

[TheDuke]

We know that boxing is fishy, but fuck man, you could almost see the terror in the refs eyes when Bute goes down. He looks at Buites corner and paces around doesn't even start counting until Bute is up then realises it's still not enough so turns around and screams at Andrade

That is fucking heartbreaking stuff

[Rise Above]

You have got to feel for Andrade thats for sure.

[ipswich express]

Lads, I'd like to know where you're seeing the controversy. If Andrade did in fact leave his corner, the rules stipulate that the count is suspended. Regardless, the round would've ended before Andrade would get the chance to punch Bute again. All Lucien had to do was get to his feet before ten (which he did) and show that he was alright to continue.

[pecks]

Lads, I'd like to know where you're seeing the controversy. If Andrade did in fact leave his corner, the rules stipulate that the count is suspended. Regardless, the round would've ended before Andrade would get the chance to punch Bute again. All Lucien had to do was get to his feet before ten (which he did) and show that he was alright to continue.From what I've heard (haven't seen), Andrade was only a step or so from the ropes. You dont have to be leaning against the ropes in this situation.

Also, Bute was supposed to rise to his feet and show he was fit to continue, regardless of the fact that the time was up.
He got up, was leaninjg against his corner, and the ref never made him walk forward or anything.

It was terrible refereeing.

[ipswich express]

He got to his feet and raised his hands. The ref should have made him walk forward, but it's not compulsory to do so. Andrade would never had the chance to punch him again, so whether he left the corner or not is moot.

[pecks]

He got to his feet and raised his hands. The ref should have made him walk forward, but it's not compulsory to do so. Andrade would never had the chance to punch him again, so whether he left the corner or not is moot.It gave Bute a lot more time to get to his feet though, so it is relevant.

[ashley]

Yep no way Bute could have kept fighting.....but very hard to call ko at that stage.

[ipswich express]

It gave Bute a lot more time to get to his feet though, so it is relevant.

It didn't because he was up at the count of 8... Watch the timer.

[TheDuke]

Lost a post.

On youtube there is quite good footage of the big screen at the arena and below it you can see the actual ring.

Andrade did wander out too far for his own good (obviously), but that being said the refree was complicit in making sure Bute was not counted out. The look he gives butes corner is mindblowing - like "what do i do?". His count starts crazily late.

He did everything in his power to ensure Bute held on. And that is the main issue, not a pedantic interpretation of rules.

[pecks]

It didn't because he was up at the count of 8... Watch the timer.We'll have to agree to disagree.

I just think theres a difference to being up and being ready to continue. Regardless of there being no time left, he still should have been made to get up and stabalize himself, insteasd up just getting to his feet while leaning against the ropes.

Had there of been no delay in the count, and Bute being made to walk forward, touch gloves ect, I'm not so sure he could have done it.

Also, is it really up to the refs discretion if he wants a fighter to walk forward or not? If it is, then thats a shit rule, as it paves the way for dodgy situations.

[JOSEY WALES]

Well at least its stfu all those deluded French /Canadians up who were proclaiming the Romanian as the next Clay . FFS he was well out of it and if i was Andrade this morning i would be punching myself in the face , all he had to do was remain in a neutral corner and the win would have been his , i will say this though it appears the ref was looking to save Bute there . rules are rules but i wonder if it would have gone down like that if the bout wasn't being staged in Montreal ?

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Lads, I'd like to know where you're seeing the controversy. If Andrade did in fact leave his corner, the rules stipulate that the count is suspended. Regardless, the round would've ended before Andrade would get the chance to punch Bute again. All Lucien had to do was get to his feet before ten (which he did) and show that he was alright to continue.

I haven't read the other responses yet man.

But he said it 3 times. All he had to do was once. Even twice. And Bute wouldn't have made the count.

Andrade was robbed hard.

Begs the question guys. If you were Andrade what would you have done? I would have done a Zab Judah.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

It didn't because he was up at the count of 8... Watch the timer.

Actually i heard ref call nine. Seriously.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Well at least its stfu all those deluded French /Canadians up who were proclaiming the Romanian as the next Clay . FFS he was well out of it and if i was Andrade this morning i would be punching myself in the face , all he had to do was remain in a neutral corner and the win would have been his , i will say this though it appears the ref was looking to save Bute there . rules are rules but i wonder if it would have gone down like that if the bout wasn't being staged in Montreal ?

Yeh Josey. Those guys saying hes on Kessler level were giving me the shits. Weirdly enough, i had seen a fair bit of Bute in amateurs, and i know he didn't transform all those mistakes when he went pro.

Hes still good. But hes about 4th in the division. Id happily put Andrade above Bute.

[Maxime]

From what I've heard (haven't seen), Andrade was only a step or so from the ropes.

Actually, Andrade was almost half way across the ring.

Not that this gave the ref the okay to scream at Andrade for a good 5-6 seconds giving Bute more time to put himself together.

But anyone who's telling you Andrade didn't leave his corner is lying.

[ipswich express]

I haven't read the other responses yet man.

But he said it 3 times. All he had to do was once. Even twice. And Bute wouldn't have made the count.

Andrade was robbed hard.

Begs the question guys. If you were Andrade what would you have done? I would have done a Zab Judah.

That quite simply is not true. He made the count regardless of how many times he said it. If Andrade was out of his corner, the ref is correct in telling him to go back as many times as is necessary until it's done. The truth of the matter is that Andrade got his head caved in for 11 rounds but showed a ton of ticker in to the 12th.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Actually, Andrade was almost half way across the ring.

Not that this gave the ref the okay to scream at Andrade for a good 5-6 seconds giving Bute more time to put himself together.

But anyone who's telling you Andrade didn't leave his corner is lying.

Your probably right. But the fact is, instead of telling him once, the ref said it three times.

And i can count hundreds of times, the ref allowed the fighter closer, then what Andrade was, and they were let go.

Its also good to look at Mayweather vs Hatton. Look just before Hatton is KO'd where Floyd is.

Either way, Andrade was robbed. And Butes stock went down.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

That quite simply is not true. He made the count regardless of how many times he said it. If Andrade was out of his corner, the ref is correct in telling him to go back as many times as is necessary until it's done. The truth of the matter is that Andrade got his head caved in for 11 rounds but showed a ton of ticker in to the 12th.

It doesn't matter if Bute won 11 rounds. Which he clearly did win close to that, i had him at 9. He got KO'd in the 12th. Andrade won the fight.

[JOSEY WALES]

Yeh Josey. Those guys saying hes on Kessler level were giving me the shits. Weirdly enough, i had seen a fair bit of Bute in amateurs, and i know he didn't transform all those mistakes when he went pro.

Hes still good. But hes about 4th in the division. Id happily put Andrade above Bute. I can't wait to see kessler v Bute mate , did you see kessler ko'ing that Hausser fella on the weekend lmao i realise Bute is head and shoulders above him but still kessler would wipe the floor with him imo , Weird how Bute punched himself out like that though , surley he knew he was draining the tank by the 9th and was going to be in shit street for the remainder of the fight . he was so far ahead he could have taken a breatehr for a few rounds and lost them to ensure he wasn't involved in a near death experience in the later rounds , PS where did you see Bute as an amature ? are you Romanian ?

[Maxime]

Yeh Josey. Those guys saying hes on Kessler level were giving me the shits. Weirdly enough, i had seen a fair bit of Bute in amateurs, and i know he didn't transform all those mistakes when he went pro.

Hes still good. But hes about 4th in the division. Id happily put Andrade above Bute.

Bute is the second best at 168lbs based on his resume...or the lack of other people with better resume.

No one at 168lbs right now has fought and beat better opposition in the last 2 years.

Who would you rank ahead of him?

Froch? He's never fought a top10 (even top20) opponent.
Inkin? Same...
Mundine? Just look at his recent opposition....

Bute is second pretty much by default.

There is a LOT of very talented fighter in the division but none of them has done more then Bute in recent years at 168lbs.

[pecks]

Actually, Andrade was almost half way across the ring.

Not that this gave the ref the okay to scream at Andrade for a good 5-6 seconds giving Bute more time to put himself together.

But anyone who's telling you Andrade didn't leave his corner is lying.Fair enough. I still have issues about Bute not being made to walk forward ect, and if thats solely up to the discretion of the referee than imo it's something that needs to be looked at.

[ipswich express]

It doesn't matter if Bute won 11 rounds. Which he clearly did win close to that, i had him at 9. He got KO'd in the 12th. Andrade won the fight.

I take it that because you didn't respond to the first part of my post, you agree that Bute was on his feet before the count of 10? Andrade might have won the fight in your mind, but on paper where it counts the IBF champion is still Bute...

[ipswich express]

Fair enough. I still have issues about Bute not being made to walk forward ect, and if thats solely up to the discretion of the referee than imo it's something that needs to be looked at.

As far as I'm aware, it's just another method of registering the indicia displayed by a fighter after a knock down. It's like asking "Do you know where you are?", "Do you still want to fight?", "Raise up your gloves", "walk forward".

[BoxingTrashTalk]

I can't wait to see kessler v Bute mate , did you see kessler ko'ing that Hausser fella on the weekend lmao i realise Bute is head and shoulders above him but still kessler would wipe the floor with him imo , Weird how Bute punched himself out like that though , surley he knew he was draining the tank by the 9th and was going to be in shit street for the remainder of the fight . he was so far ahead he could have taken a breatehr for a few rounds and lost them to ensure he wasn't involved in a near death experience in the later rounds , PS where did you see Bute as an amature ? are you Romanian ?

Yeh the first thing i thought when Kessler threw that combination is, damm! Calzaghe has to love this. Kessler will not be beaten at 168. And i tip him to beat pretty much everyone at 175, other then Dawson, and also Hopkins is a toss up. I think Kessler has enough skills to do some damage on B-Hop.

But on Bute punching himself out. I have seen a lot of amateur footage of him. One of my mates is a big fan of his, and he has it all.

As an amateur : Bute was KO'd cold a couple of times. Well i saw one video of him, and getting KO'd aswell.

And he always had stamina problems.

[TheDuke]

why defend what happened?

It was corrupt as fuck

[BoxingTrashTalk]

I take it that because you didn't respond to the first part of my post, you agree that Bute was on his feet before the count of 10? Andrade might have won the fight in your mind, but on paper where it counts the IBF champion is still Bute...

Technically yes. But i ordered a pizza, waited for the guy to deliver it, gave him a tip. And then went down the road to see my friend. Came back home and the count was still going.

Sure he got up before 10. But 10 was actually 24.

[ipswich express]

There's a big difference between inept and corrupt.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

why defend what happened?

It was corrupt as fuck

Exactly, the sport did not need it.

[ipswich express]

Technically yes. But i ordered a pizza, waited for the guy to deliver it, gave him a tip. And then went down the road to see my friend. Came back home and the count was still going.

Sure he got up before 10. But 10 was actually 24.

Once again you're talking out your arse. Watch the timer on the youtube reel and count it for yourself. Of course you'd also be aware that it's the timekeeper's responsibility to inform the referee if a boxer is down for longer than 10 seconds while he's making sure the other fighter is in the neutral corner?

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Once again you're talking out your arse. Watch the timer on the youtube reel and count it for yourself. Of course you'd also be aware that it's the timekeeper's responsibility to inform the referee if a boxer is down for longer than 10 seconds while he's making sure the other fighter is in the neutral corner?

Who cares, the count was 24 seconds. I just watched the video on youtube.

You don't have to tell a guy 3 times.

If you can't see Andrade was robbed, then its shit man.

Its like arguing that the league world cup is a success. When tongans are playing for new zealand, and new zealanders are playing for australia, and australians are playing for scotland and ireland.

Its all shit.

Andrade won man.

[ipswich express]

It's hard to argue when you don't understand the rules...

[BoxingTrashTalk]

It's hard to argue when you don't understand the rules...

Its hard to argue with people, who use the rules, to justify corruption.

[ipswich express]

The fact of the matter is you obviously don't know the basic rules of the sport. He was up before 10, it's the time keepers responsibility to tell the ref if he wasn't, and the referee has to ensure that Andrade retires to a neutral corner before a count is even issued. On top of this, there wasn't even time left for Andrade to punch again.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

The fact of the matter is you obviously don't know the basic rules of the sport. He was up before 10, it's the time keepers responsibility to tell the ref if he wasn't, and the referee has to ensure that Andrade retires to a neutral corner before a count is even issued. On top of this, there wasn't even time left for Andrade to punch again.

Majority rules champ. 90% of people support me on this. No doubt about it.

You don't need to tell a guy 3 times to get back to his corner. Once is enough. Andrade shat himself when he said it once and started moving back.

Your wrong man. Sorry.

[JOSEY WALES]

Bute is the second best at 168lbs based on his resume...or the lack of other people with better resume.

No one at 168lbs right now has fought and beat better opposition in the last 2 years.

Who would you rank ahead of him?

Froch? He's never fought a top10 (even top20) opponent.
Inkin? Same...
Mundine? Just look at his recent opposition....

Bute is second pretty much by default.

There is a LOT of very talented fighter in the division but none of them has done more then Bute in recent years at 168lbs. Hey Maxime , Frochs been ducked , Inkin twice ,Taylor once , i realsie his comp ain't been that good but he turned Tatesonyan off at the mains in the second where it took Bute a whole 12 rounds to UD him in his previous outing :deal , the Russian was consided Top Ten then did you forget that ? I would have a tidy shunt on Froch beating Bute in bout , all Froch would have to do is stay out of trouble for 7 rounds and then go to work when bute blew up ...

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Hey Maxime , Frochs been ducked , Inkin twice ,Taylor once , i realsie his comp ain't been that good but he turned Tatesonyan off at the mains in the second where it took Bute a whole 12 rounds to UD him in his previous outing :deal , the Russian was consided Top Ten then did you forget that ? I would have a tidy shunt on Froch beating Bute in bout , all Froch would have to do is stay out of trouble for 7 rounds and then go to work when bute blew up ...

Butes like buying a second hand car. Might last you a little while, but it just breaks down.

[ipswich express]

Majority rules champ. 90% of people support me on this. No doubt about it.

You don't need to tell a guy 3 times to get back to his corner. Once is enough. Andrade shat himself when he said it once and started moving back.

Your wrong man. Sorry.

Majority rules? WTF? The only rules you should worry about are the ones you don't appear to be too familiar with. If the controversy is due to Bute not being in condition to continue after his mandatory standing 8 count, then fine. If not, you're completely wrong, until there's footage showing Andrade standing in a neutral corner, waiting for the ref to wave him in.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Majority rules? WTF? The only rules you should worry about are the ones you don't appear to be too familiar with. If the controversy is due to Bute not being in condition to continue after his mandatory standing 8 count, then fine. If not, you're completely wrong, until there's footage showing Andrade standing in a neutral corner, waiting for the ref to wave him in.
Okay well answer this. And stop ducking the question man.

Why did the ref have to say it 3 times? When Andrade started moving back the first time?

[ipswich express]

Because from the ref's point of view he obviously wasn't in the corner. Show me the camera view where he's in the corner.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Look at 1:04 : Where is Andrade? Thats a corner right?

I can't even see Andrade.

No one can.

3 times man. He could have said it once.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This guy thinks hes not corrupt, because he sounds smart.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Also sorry for the shitty double post. Look at 2: 03. Thats the corner. Hes right in it.

2 6's. And look at the sly look he gives, to give Bute time. When looking back to Andrade.

Corruption at its best.

[ipswich express]

That doesn't show it at all.

[pecks]

After reading up on this some more, it appears all Bute had to do was make it to his feet even if he was still groggy ect, and despite the ref showing favouritism towards him, he did get up before 10 even if the count was fair.

So I retract my original thoughts on the matter, and am happy to declare Bute the fair winner.

[teke]

Well at least its stfu all those deluded French /Canadians up who were proclaiming the Romanian as the next Clay . FFS he was well out of it and if i was Andrade this morning i would be punching myself in the face , all he had to do was remain in a neutral corner and the win would have been his , i will say this though it appears the ref was looking to save Bute there . rules are rules but i wonder if it would have gone down like that if the bout wasn't being staged in Montreal ?I never really rated Bute too highly but after seeing his performance against Andrade i was impressed with his skill.

It really was a case of the ref trying to save Bute like you say. Good fight and you good sense the whole way through that it wasnt over til the very end.

Doesnt matter who has the W on their record, we all know Bute got bashed at the end. Lucky it wasnt a 15 rounder

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Here’s the Montreal Gazette’s take on it. I just love Itskowitch’s (from Golden Boy) quote:

I've never seen anyone count to 10 like that.

Bute's title defence ends in controversy

Herb Zurkowsky, Canwest News Service Published: Sunday, October 26, 2008

MONTREAL -- All Lucian Bute required was three more minutes. Three minutes to dance, bob and weave, perhaps land the occasional punch, but, more importantly, protect himself. Three more minutes to easily retain his International Boxing Federation super-middleweight championship.
Bute remains one of the 168-pound division's champs today. He remains undefeated. But, for as long as he retains the belt, there will always be an asterisk associated with his reign. And, because of it, the sport of boxing, yet again, is mired in controversy. So what else is new?

"Just when you think you've seen it all, you see something else. This is unbelievable," said David Itskowitch, the chief operating officer for Golden Boy Promotions. "Boxing was robbed of a great moment. I've never seen anyone count to 10 like that.

"There's a perception in the U.S. you can't come to Canada and win a fair decision. Now, you can't score a knockout and win. It's disconcerting. This is a black eye for boxing."

This is boxing where an outsider, arguably, can't go to Germany, either, and get a fair decision. Just ask Eric Lucas. Five years ago, he ventured overseas, losing his World Boxing Council super-middleweight crown to Markus Beyer on a split-decision.

Or how about Montreal's Hermann NGoudjo? Twice he ventured to the U.S. and, arguably, got robbed - losing a split-decision to Jose Luis Castillo and a unanimous verdict to IBF light-welterweight champ Paul Malignaggi.

Stuff happens. This is boxing. It's a subjective sport. No two judges will see things the same. Even the referee's interpretation can become the subject of review.

By now you've probably heard Bute was knocked down in the 12th and final round by Librado Andrade on Friday night at the Bell Centre. Bute made the grievous mistake of mixing it up in the last round of a fight he was comfortably leading. Although Bute has the talent, moves and footwork to avoid danger, he decided it was more important to put on a show for the 16,266 fans - and nearly lost his title in the process.

Andrade, who only knows one way to fight - coming forward - chased Bute around the ring throughout the 12th. He never stopped punching. Bute looked like he was going to hang on, somehow, until falling, for the first time in his pro career, from a right hand.

That's when all sense of normalcy came to an end.

Bute eventually arose, but clearly benefited from referee Marlon Wright's long count - a count that was delayed and interrupted when Andrade, according to the referee's interpretation, didn't remain in a neutral corner. This manoeuvre simply accorded Bute additional time to recover. His trainer, Stephan Larouche, said only four seconds remained when Bute was knocked down, according to the Showtime TV monitor he had at ringside.

Get up and keep the title. It was that simple.

Bute arose, but clearly was groggy and exhausted, teetering against the ropes. He appeared unable to continue, but was saved by the bell. Even losing a 10-8 round at the end made no impact on the three judges' scorecards. They had Bute ahead by eight-, five- and four-point margins. Of course, Bute would have had his own 10-8 round in the 10th, when he dropped Andrade from a lunging left to the body followed by a short right, although it was the tangling of legs, as much as anything, that contributed to this knockdown.

"By most people's count, it was at least five seconds before the count started," said Itskowitch, noting an immediate appeal was being filed with IBF headquarters. "The referee counted to six two times. He told (Andrade) to go to the corner and counted six again. The count took 24 seconds. Look at the tape."

In boxing, as in life, there are always three sides to every story. Itskowitch is upset, justifiably so, because his company has lost money it would have generated by promoting a world champion. We're not condoning Wright's reaction, but he was the third man in the ring, a former boxer himself.
Just so you know, Montreal's Guy Jutras, who has handled 81 title bouts as a judge or referee, said Wright, technically, did nothing wrong. Jutras explained if a boxer leaves the corner during a knockdown, the referee can stop his count.

"It's up to the interpretation of the ref," explained Jutras, chairman of the officials' committee for the World Boxing Association. "There's a common-sense application of the rule."

Did Wright use common sense? Jutras is too wise to dive into that debate.

None of this, of course, will placate Andrade or his trainer Howard Grant. They believe they were stiffed, and they're certainly entitled to their opinion. Grant, who should know better, unwisely accused Wright and the IBF supervisor Hiawatha Knight of being on the take.

"He (Bute) was completely out . . . on the floor," Andrade charged. "Everyone saw he was out. He was completely out and there shouldn't have been a count. I don't think it was fair. I knew I wasn't going to get a decision; I had to knock him out. And I completely knocked him out."

Thirty more seconds and Andrade's arm might have been raised in victory. Instead, he'll return home to Las Vegas, convinced a Montreal-based referee cost him the title.

Andrade can only hope it's not his last title shot.

And Bute, we're sure, won't try to be a hero next time.

Montreal Gazette

[Decebal]

Look at 1:04 : Where is Andrade? Thats a corner right?

I can't even see Andrade.

No one can.

3 times man. He could have said it once.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This guy thinks hes not corrupt, because he sounds smart.

Andrade left his corner and made it almost as far as the centre of the ring:


Watch at 1:24.

66CO0lksoEo&feature=related

This is the rule the referee applied in this case:

"4. When a contestant has been knocked down, the referee will order the standing contestant to the farthest neutral corner and begin the count. If the contestant standing leaves the corner before the count has been completed, the referee shall discontinue the count and
order the standing contestant back into the corner. The count will not resume until the standing contestant has returned to the neutral corner."

You want to see a real KO?

Here you go, mate:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:thumbsup

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Andrade left his corner and made it almost as far as the centre of the ring...

The split screen certainly puts a different perspective on things!

In the original video it looks like the refs just gone walkbout. But the split screen plainly shows that Andrade is not in the corner, and the ref is hellbent on him being there before he does anything else.

[Decebal]

The split screen certainly puts a different perspective on things!

In the original video it looks like the refs just gone walkbout. But the split screen plainly shows that Andrade is not in the corner, and the ref is hellbent on him being there before he does anything else.

He was applying the rules. The ref had been pissed off by Andrade all night for disregarding his commands; this wasn't the first time. Quite a few times, Andrade ignored his command to break, when they were fighting on the inside and on two occasions, Andrade engaged after the break before the referee ordered them to restart, catchin Bute by surprise and almost knocking the ref out of the way in the process. When you add to this repeated use of the head and elbows...you can see why the ref was pissed off Andrade was trying to gain an unfair advantage with Bute fighting to get up and beat the count.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

He was applying the rules. The ref had been pissed off by Andrade all night for disregarding his commands; this wasn't the first time. Quite a few times, Andrade ignored his command to break, when they were fighting on the inside and on two occasions, Andrade engaged after the break before the referee ordered them to restart, catchin Bute by surprise and almost knocking the ref out of the way in the process. When you add to this repeated use of the head and elbows...you can see why the ref was pissed off Andrade was trying to gain an unfair advantage with Bute fighting to get up and beat the count.

Decebal.

You need to realize. Win, loose or draw. Butes stocks dropped on friday night.

He was a close competitor to Kessler, many thought before the fight. Now i would happily pick the likes of Kessler, Froch, Andrade, Taylor to beat him.

Big stamina problems.

[Decebal]

Decebal.

You need to realize. Win, loose or draw. Butes stocks dropped on friday night.

He was a close competitor to Kessler, many thought before the fight. Now i would happily pick the likes of Kessler, Froch, Andrade, Taylor to beat him.

Big stamina problems.

So...what does that have to do with the "outrageous refereeing" and with "Andrade being robbed blind" again, Gav?

[BoxingTrashTalk]

So...what does that have to do with the "outrageous refereeing" and with "Andrade being robbed blind" again, Gav?

Everything. Bute was knocked out in the 12th okay.

Even if he has the win on boxrec. It doesn't mean shit. Fans are the ultimate judges in this sport.

And Bute has just ruined his reputation pretty much.

Hes no match for Kessler now.

I can't see why you guys defend this blatant corruption. Sure your right by the rules. But the rules are never bloody implemented. I have seen 4 hundred million fights, where fighters have been closer to the other fighter, then Andrade was. E.G Mayweather Hatton, Mosely Mayorga, it just goes on and on. Yet Andrade is the guy who gets called for it.

Be honest Decebal If Bute was behind on the scorecards and he knocked Andrade down at the end, he would have won by KO.

Blatant corruption.

[Decebal]

Bute was knocked out in the 12th okay.

Yeah...and Soliman was robbed against Mundine every time they fought, just like Green was robbed every time he lost against Mundine...the fans know it; it doesn't matter what boxrec says.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Yeah...and Soliman was robbed against Mundine every time they fought, just like Green was robbed every time he lost against Mundine...the fans know it; it doesn't matter what boxrec says.

:lol: :patsch

[Decebal]

:lol: :patsch

You know it too; everyone does. Sure, not everyone likes to admit it, but everyone knows Soliman beat Mundine three times now. :)

[ipswich express]

Thanks for posting that Decebel. Case closed. Andrade was well out of the corner, and therefore breaking the rules. If people have a problem with whether Bute was in a state to continue, I have no problems with that, but the count was completely accurate.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

You know it too; everyone does. Sure, not everyone likes to admit it, but everyone knows Soliman beat Mundine three times now. :)

LOL your taking the piss now?

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Thanks for posting that Decebel. Case closed. Andrade was well out of the corner, and therefore breaking the rules. If people have a problem with whether Bute was in a state to continue, I have no problems with that, but the count was completely accurate.

He said "six twice", can't be completely accurate.

Even if telling Andrade was right.

6 goes to 7.

[ipswich express]

He takes up his count with the timekeeper. It's the timekeeper's responsibility. On top of that, Bute made it to his feet anyway, so it's irrelevant.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

He takes up his count with the timekeeper. It's the timekeeper's responsibility. On top of that, Bute made it to his feet anyway, so it's irrelevant.

Okay but you can see that if Andrade was in his corner, Bute would have had a KO loss in the 12th?

[Sox]

Everything. Bute was knocked out in the 12th okay.

Even if he has the win on boxrec. It doesn't mean shit. Fans are the ultimate judges in this sport.

And Bute has just ruined his reputation pretty much.

Hes no match for Kessler now.

I can't see why you guys defend this blatant corruption. Sure your right by the rules. But the rules are never bloody implemented. I have seen 4 hundred million fights, where fighters have been closer to the other fighter, then Andrade was. E.G Mayweather Hatton, Mosely Mayorga, it just goes on and on. Yet Andrade is the guy who gets called for it.

Be honest Decebal If Bute was behind on the scorecards and he knocked Andrade down at the end, he would have won by KO.

Blatant corruption.
I think you're playing with ya tackle. :nut

I don't see any corruption at all, let alone blatant corruption.
Andrade broke the rules and that's that (at least from the footage I've seen).

I haven't seen the whole fight, but from what I heard, Bute had him licked for the vast majority of the fight, so I don't see how that makes his reputation ruined.
I don't feel he would have given Kessler too much trouble anyway, regardless of this fight.

I think a lot of hoohah has been made over nothing. :gayfight

[ipswich express]

Okay but you can see that if Andrade was in his corner, Bute would have had a KO loss in the 12th?

No, because he beat the count!!!!!!!! There was no time left. All he had to do was stand before 10 (which he did!) and show he could continue if necessary. That's the only point of conjecture.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

No, because he beat the count!!!!!!!! There was no time left. All he had to do was stand before 10 (which he did!) and show he could continue if necessary. That's the only point of conjecture.

You follow the rules to much.

Im going to start calling you David Gallop.

[ipswich express]

You follow the rules to much.

Im going to start calling you David Gallop.

Nice one... :roll:

It's been a pleasure educating you though and making you look more like a cock every couple of hours.

You might find this helpful...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[TheDuke]

I don't get the politics of this. You can be pedantic about rules, but in the spirit of the contest Bute lost. In the spirit of fairness, the referee officiated in a way that went beyond inept.

I have no bias against Bute or any particular fondness for Andrade, but the point is, that the referee did everything in his power, not to count Bute out.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Nice one... :roll:

It's been a pleasure educating you though and making you look more like a cock every couple of hours.

You might find this helpful...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I 2nd what Duke said. Most people agree with me.

Im not looking like a cock.

[WhataRock]

I actually agree with Ippy. Though the ref did go out of his way to help Bute, Andrade would have not gotten a chance to finish him and in the end whatever way you look at it Bute got up before 10.

The bell went later because you cant be saved by the bell and the ref had not finished his count.

And Andrade did leave the corner, there is plenty of evidence of this.

Rematch I say.

[teke]

we can all agree Bute got his arse handed to him at the end

[Sox]

Okay but you can see that if Andrade was in his corner, Bute would have had a KO loss in the 12th?
How so?
Disregarding the ref being distracted, Bute was up before 10 no matter which way you look at it.
There would have been no time for any fighting to continue.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

How so?
Disregarding the ref being distracted, Bute was up before 10 no matter which way you look at it.
There would have been no time for any fighting to continue.

How so? Presuming Andrade obeyed the rules.

Theres no way Bute would have been up before an uninterupted count of 10.

[Sox]

How so? Presuming Andrade obeyed the rules.

Theres no way Bute would have been up before an uninterupted count of 10.
But he was before 10, count it yourself on the video.
He was up at somewhere between 8 and 9.

[ipswich express]

But he was before 10, count it yourself on the video.
He was up at somewhere between 8 and 9.

Exactly, it's like talking to a wall...

[teke]

Even if he Andrade was stuck to his neutral corner the ref would have still said Bute was able to continue which he very well wasnt. The ref was an idiot.

[TheDuke]

Ok Ippy I will have to concede. To make amends I want to send you a coupon for unlimited ice cream/gelato at the Coogee Bay Hotel

PM me your details :P

[ipswich express]

Even if he Andrade was stuck to his neutral corner the ref would have still said Bute was able to continue which he very well wasnt. The ref was an idiot.

I've seen fighters in worse condition then Bute allowed to continue. He still raised his gloves, obviously satisfying the referee. That however is the only contentious part, as I've said all along.

[ipswich express]

Ok Ippy I will have to concede. To make amends I want to send you a coupon for unlimited ice cream/gelato at the Coogee Bay Hotel

PM me your details :P

Cheers Duke, very kind of you :lol:

[Maxime]

Andrade cost himself the fight. He shouldn't have left the neutral corner.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ipswich express]

Pull up the sheets... this one has been put to bed! :)

[teke]

:lol::lol::lol: and him standing there has was to do with the state of Bute, look at him half bent backwards over the ropes :rofl:rofl

[ipswich express]

I've stated all along that the only possible point of contention is Bute and whether he could have continued. Go back to my first post here. Unfortunately it's taken 6 pages for some to catch on. However the ref spoke to him, and asked him to raise his gloves presumably, which he did, indicating he was capable of defending himself.

[CarltonBlues]

Bute couldn't even stand up straight, it was a knock out.

[ipswich express]

The ref's mistake was not asking Bute to walk forward. However, this is not mandatory.

[Maxime]

The ref's mistake was not asking Bute to walk forward. However, this is not mandatory.
You're right. There nothing in the rules requires the ref to ask the fighter to walk forward.

It was the referee's call. If he went the other way and declared Andrade the winner with zero second left on the clock. People on the other side of the fence would be calling for a rematch.

Either way. Andrade said he wants a rematch. Bute said he has no problem fighting a rematch with Andrade.

Every one wins! :D

[ipswich express]

I'd have no problems picking Bute by decision again. I know he was in the heat of battle, but if he just taken a knee towards the last 30 seconds, he'd have gotten out of there a lot easier. It'd have been a smarter option.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

:lol::lol::lol: and him standing there has was to do with the state of Bute, look at him half bent backwards over the ropes :rofl:rofl

:lol: :lol:

[BoxingTrashTalk]

You're right. There nothing in the rules requires the ref to ask the fighter to walk forward.

It was the referee's call. If he went the other way and declared Andrade the winner with zero second left on the clock. People on the other side of the fence would be calling for a rematch.

Either way. Andrade said he wants a rematch. Bute said he has no problem fighting a rematch with Andrade.

Every one wins! :D

:patsch

Have a look at Bute mate. He was out of it.

[Maxime]

:patsch

Have a look at Bute mate. He was out of it.

And the fight was over...

[TheDuke]

I think me and BTT are arguing with Maxime and Ippy at cross purposes.

My last 2 cents.................if the ref had started counting earlier.......then the 8 count would have been over with 5 seconds left meaning a charging Andrade runs over to land one last hay-maker on a barely conscious Bute and if he connects????

It's possible that all those factors aside, Bute may have beat the count. Still been out of it but managed to stay on his feet and avoid the last flurry. Then I would have had no problem with it. My problem is that the referee officiated dishonestly at that part of the fight to prevent him losing. In caps:
THE REFEREE TOOK ACTION TO PREVENT ONE FIGHTER LOSING

So my utter disappointment is that a sport I love is brought down again by a referee protecting the promoters investment.

Again I ask you to look at the moment on the TV footage, where the referee looks over at Bute's corner after he has dropped, it's like something out of Walking Tall where the Sherriff looks over to the town Godfather to ask who he should be arresting.

[WhataRock]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Bute is dropped with 2 secs remaining in the round. You math doesnt add up Duke, the round was over, the bell rang later simply because the ref had not finisihed his count and the timekeeper could not ring the bell until the ref deemed Bute fit to continue as no fighter can be saved by the bell.

Bute was up before 10 anyway...even if the ref's count was out because he stopped it. The film shows this clearly aswell.

I dont disagree he was helping Bute out though, but I have seen much worse and blatant examples of this. Even in oz with Alan Moore's infamous 1..2..3..4..5678910 count in the Seran-Taylor fight being a recent example.

[Decebal]

the bell rang later simply because the ref had not finisihed his count and the timekeeper could not ring the bell until the ref deemed Bute fit to continue as no fighter can be saved by the bell.



The timekeeper didn't know what he was doing. For Bute to have been saved by the bell, things would have gone like this:

Bute goes down with 2 seconds to go. The ref starts the count. Two seconds after the knockdown, the bell rings. Bute is still on the floor. The referee stops counting as soon as the bell rings, because he was saved by the bell. Had the referee not stopped counting, Bute wouldn't have been able to beat the count in time, but since the bell rang and the referee stopped counting, Bute no longer had to beat the count, so he could get up at his own leisure within the 1 minute interval break. This is what being saved by the bell means. It doesn't mean that the referee has to deem you able to continue before the bell is allowed to ring.

Am I making this up? No!

Here's how the rule defines it:


6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Notice that the rule says for the bell to ring, you have to rise and have your hands clear the floor. It doesn't say, as you suggested, that "the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor AND THE REFEREE DEEMS THE BOXER ABLE TO CONTINUE, AND GIVES THE TIMEKEEPER A SIGN THAT HE IS NOW ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL"

There's a hell of a difference between these two.


Bute wasn't saved by the bell, but the bell should have ringed when he rose with his hands clear of the floor, eight seconds after the knockdown, six seconds after the end of the three minute period - because that's what the rule above says should happen. The timekeeper failed to obey the rule, not because Bute wasn't allowed to be saved by the bell, but because the timekeeper didn't know what he was doing.:good

[BoxingTrashTalk]

The timekeeper didn't know what he was doing. For Bute to have been saved by the bell, things would have gone like this:

Bute goes down with 2 seconds to go. The ref starts the count. Two seconds after the knockdown, the bell rings. Bute is still on the floor. The referee stops counting as soon as the bell rings, because he was saved by the bell. Had the referee not stopped counting, Bute wouldn't have been able to beat the count in time, but since the bell rang and the referee stopped counting, Bute no longer had to beat the count, so he could get up at his own leisure within the 1 minute interval break. This is what being saved by the bell means. It doesn't mean that the referee has to deem you able to continue before the bell is allowed to ring.

Am I making this up? No!

Here's how the rule defines it:



6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Notice that the rule says for the bell to ring, you have to rise and have your hands clear the floor. It doesn't say, as you suggested, that "the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor AND THE REFEREE DEEMS THE BOXER ABLE TO CONTINUE, AND GIVES THE TIMEKEEPER A SIGN THAT HE IS NOW ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL"

There's a hell of a difference between these two.


Bute wasn't saved by the bell, but the bell should have ringed when he rose with his hands clear of the floor, eight seconds after the knockdown, six seconds after the end of the three minute period - because that's what the rule above says should happen. The timekeeper failed to obey the rule, not because Bute wasn't allowed to be saved by the bell, but because the timekeeper didn't know what he was doing.:good


Be honest. You reckon Bute slipped?

[WhataRock]

I didnt realise that was the IBF's rules but other bodies and organisations have different rules, maybe thats why the timekeeper did what he did. I was told this by an actual ref mind you so of course Im going to take his word on it even if his interpretation isnt exactly the same as the IBF's.
Plus you are putting words into my mouth, I never said "GIVES THE TIMEKEEPER A SIGN THAT HE IS NOW ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL" I just said the bell was not going to sound until Bute was deemed to be up, which does not always mean your "hands have cleared the floor" many, many fighters have been counted out on their feet in the ring or with their hands no where near the floor. Which I guess if it happened in this situation would have been contravening the rules.

But I think the word that should have the most weight in that passage is the word "rises", which the timekeeper isnt really qualified or in a position to decide because Bute could have got off the ground but been draped on the ropes or holding himself up on them which means he has not properly risen from the KD. The ref would be the one who decides that.

My point really had nothing to do with that anyway, the fact is Bute got up before 10 and after the end of the round so Andrade would not have had another shot to stop him. A lot of people were confused by the bell sounding later as they thought the round had not ended and Andrade was robbed of a chance to stop Bute, which is just not true.

[Decebal]

I didnt realise that was the IBF's rules but other bodies and organisations have different rules, maybe thats why the timekeeper did what he did. I was told this by an actual ref mind you so of course Im going to take his word on it even if his interpretation isnt exactly the same as the IBF's.
Plus you are putting words into my mouth, I never said "GIVES THE TIMEKEEPER A SIGN THAT HE IS NOW ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL" I just said the bell was not going to sound until Bute was deemed to be up, which does not always mean your "hands have cleared the floor" many, many fighters have been counted out on their feet in the ring or with their hands no where near the floor. Which I guess if it happened in this situation would have been contravening the rules.

But I think the word that should have the most weight in that passage is the word "rises", which the timekeeper isnt really qualified or in a position to decide because Bute could have got off the ground but been draped on the ropes or holding himself up on them which means he has not properly risen from the KD. The ref would be the one who decides that.

My point really had nothing to do with that anyway, the fact is Bute got up before 10 and after the end of the round so Andrade would not have had another shot to stop him. A lot of people were confused by the bell sounding later as they thought the round had not ended and Andrade was robbed of a chance to stop Bute, which is just not true.

Well, many fighters get counted out because they don't just had to beat the count, as Bute had to, in this case, but they also have to convince the referee that they are able to continue, because the KD, in all these cases, doesn't occur with a couple of seconds left on the clock, in the very last round; it occurs in the middle of the last round, or earlier in the fight, etc, so not only must they beat the count, but they must also prove able to continue. They cannot convince the ref they are able to continue for as long as the fight is scheduled for, so he counts them out even thought they beat the count (risen with their hands clear of the floor before the ref has a chance to count them out).

About the word "rises", it is assumed the fighter was either on the floor or helpless on the ropes, at the time of the KD, right? So, he must rise off the floor or off the ropes and he must have his hands clear of the floor. It's obvious for anyone at ringside whether this condition is fulflled. You don't need to be a foot away to see whether the guy is on his feet and whether his hands are on the floor, after a KD. This is why the timekeeper didn't need the referee's OK to ring the bell, according to IBF rules.

[ipswich express]

I didnt realise that was the IBF's rules but other bodies and organisations have different rules, maybe thats why the timekeeper did what he did. I was told this by an actual ref mind you so of course Im going to take his word on it even if his interpretation isnt exactly the same as the IBF's.
Plus you are putting words into my mouth, I never said "GIVES THE TIMEKEEPER A SIGN THAT HE IS NOW ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL" I just said the bell was not going to sound until Bute was deemed to be up, which does not always mean your "hands have cleared the floor" many, many fighters have been counted out on their feet in the ring or with their hands no where near the floor. Which I guess if it happened in this situation would have been contravening the rules.

But I think the word that should have the most weight in that passage is the word "rises", which the timekeeper isnt really qualified or in a position to decide because Bute could have got off the ground but been draped on the ropes or holding himself up on them which means he has not properly risen from the KD. The ref would be the one who decides that.

My point really had nothing to do with that anyway, the fact is Bute got up before 10 and after the end of the round so Andrade would not have had another shot to stop him. A lot of people were confused by the bell sounding later as they thought the round had not ended and Andrade was robbed of a chance to stop Bute, which is just not true.

Spot on...

[THN]

Bute was saved by the bell, I think we all can agree to that.
SO HE LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phil Austin]

Bute was not saved by the bell, he regained his feet in time of the ref's count because Andrade left his corner and the count was suspended. There is no real controversy on that, although an argument could be made that the fight should have been stopped before the knockdown as Bute was in no position to defend himself. That stuff about the ref making him walk towards him is garbage IMO - for a start you guys are complaining about the amount of time Bute was given to recover; this adds more time! IMO a fighter has 8-9 seconds to be in a position ready to fight from being knocked down. I won't ever make him walk towards me as I am penalising the fighter who scoredf the knockdown, I wil just judge his movements as me moves towards his opponent, if he is no good then the fight is over

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Bute was not saved by the bell, he regained his feet in time of the ref's count because Andrade left his corner and the count was suspended. There is no real controversy on that, although an argument could be made that the fight should have been stopped before the knockdown as Bute was in no position to defend himself. That stuff about the ref making him walk towards him is garbage IMO - for a start you guys are complaining about the amount of time Bute was given to recover; this adds more time! IMO a fighter has 8-9 seconds to be in a position ready to fight from being knocked down. I won't ever make him walk towards me as I am penalising the fighter who scoredf the knockdown, I wil just judge his movements as me moves towards his opponent, if he is no good then the fight is over

Was waiting for you to weigh in on this one Phil, and it's hard to disagree with what you've written.

IMO Bute was just plain lucky enough to hang in just long enough.

In the end he was saved by the rules - and legitimately - but what was Andrade doing wandering around when his butt should have been firmly planted in the corner?

[ipswich express]

Andrade knew time was not on his side, but it didn't make a difference.

[Phil Austin]

Couldhavebeen - that is the same question I asked myself and I am sure Andrade has been asking himself non-stop since the fight. Andrade had him beat and handed it back to him on a platter. Ippy has been spot on with everything he said. One of the biggest problems I see in boxing apart from the usual is the lack of knowledge TV commentators have of the actual rules! This then misguides less-knowledgable fans who see things that really are not there

[ipswich express]

Thanks Phil, I'll slip you a tenner next show... :)

[ashley]

Couldhavebeen - that is the same question I asked myself and I am sure Andrade has been asking himself non-stop since the fight. Andrade had him beat and handed it back to him on a platter. Ippy has been spot on with everything he said. One of the biggest problems I see in boxing apart from the usual is the lack of knowledge TV commentators have of the actual rules! This then misguides less-knowledgable fans who see things that really are not there

Tell the truth Phill...before the bell sounded the ref was holding butes gloves.....bute was looking for his mummy.....would you have waved off the fight?

[Phil Austin]

To tell the truth Ashley, I never like to second guess a ref as HE is the one closest to the action, but personally I would have stopped it before the knockdown, IMO he was incapable of defending himself. The ref is or should always going to wipe off the downed fighters gloves and look into his eyes to assess the fighter, the bell rang before that decision could be made.

[BoxingTrashTalk]

Tell the truth Phill...before the bell sounded the ref was holding butes gloves.....bute was looking for his mummy.....would you have waved off the fight?

If you watch the video clearly even before Bute goes down, the ref goes to grab Andrade on the back.

[Phil Austin]

What are you on Gav? It is simple; the ref was caught out of position and touched Andrade's back to move him to get around AS Bute was falling, that's just poor positioning from the ref nothing more nothing less.

[Peterp]

I just watched this fight and i think everything was above board. Bute got to his feet

[OSKA]

Still think soliman won the 3rd fight against mundine.

[VIP]

Bute was out on his feet, there have been many fighters stopped for far less. The time issue came into play though, and the ref decided to go with the star power in Bute.