Why didnt Monzon move up?

[Silver]

monzon was a big middlewieght but he never moved up, any of you have an idea what the reason was? maybe lack of competition at the higher weights?

[mr. magoo]

Could have been for financial reasons that made staying at middleweight more profitable. Then again, perhaps his people didn't feel that his prospects were worth the risk of facing some of the titlists at lightheavyweight during that period.. Guys like John Conteh, Victor Galindez and Saad Muhammad would have dangerous back in those days for a middleweight rising in weight.

[My dinner with Conteh]

monzon was a big middlewieght but he never moved up, any of you have an idea what the reason was? maybe lack of competition at the higher weights?


A fight with Conteh was mooted for 1975 but but fell through. Often the reason is cited as the EBU ban on Monzon but I don't think that's true. I think John might have been too big though- he was a heavyweight previously before Ali (amongst others convinced him he'd have no chance vs himself, Frazier and a younger up-and-comer called George Foreman.:D) . He and Galindez were pals so that was always unlikely.

[Marciano Frazier]

Could have been for financial reasons that made staying at middleweight more profitable. Then again, perhaps his people didn't feel that his prospects were worth the risk of facing some of the titlists at lightheavyweight during that period.. Guys like John Conteh, Victor Galindez and Saad Muhammad would have dangerous back in those days for a middleweight rising in weight.
I think the name we're looking for is Bob Foster. Foster was light heavyweight champion for most of Monzon's middleweight title reign. I do believe Foster would have been an absolute terror for any middleweight moving up.

[janitor]

I think the name we're looking for is Bob Foster. Foster was light heavyweight champion for most of Monzon's middleweight title reign. I do believe Foster would have been an absolute terror for any middleweight moving up.

Harry Greb and Mickey Walker would have fought him for better or worse.

[MRBILL]

Because Carlos Monzon liked to beat up smaller men ( Griffith & Napoles). That's the truth.. Monzon lacked hair on his balls... Otherwise he'd have challenged Bob Foster at 175 pounds... But Monzon never even squeezed a fart in that direction.... WHY?:patsch

MR.BILL



EXTRA:

The 'Monzon' freaks will be all over me like ticks on a hound....:tong

Personally, I'm a 'Hagler' nutgrabber.... Peace...

[My dinner with Conteh]

Because Marvin Hagler liked to beat up smaller men (Duran & Mugabi). That's the truth.. Hagler lacked hair on his balls... Otherwise he'd have challenged Micahel Spinks at 175 pounds


Sorted now. :good

[Sweet Pea]

Sorted now. :good:lol:

[Robbi]

Personally, I'm a 'Hagler' nutgrabber.... Peace...

Don't grab his nuts too hard mind. Infact, grab them tightly. His wife said they are made of steel.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Apparently, if you slice Marv's testicles open you'll find a miniature boxing glove in each one.

[MRBILL]

Hagler was a natural 160 pounder who often weighed 157, 158 & 159 for his fights....... At best, without looking chunky, 168 would be tops for Hagler..

Carlos Monzon was a BIG 160 pounder who often struggled to get that low. Monzon could've easily fought at 170 to 175 pounds without looking porky in the girth... If anyone should've moved up, it was Monzon....

MR.BILL

P.S.

Too bad Super-Middle didn't exist back then... The hell was the commission / organization thinking? 168 makes a whole lotta' sense to me.... Remember Lindell Holmes??

[WhataRock]

Does it hurt his legacy that some of his biggest wins were over naturally smaller men moving up like Napoles and Griffith?. Maybe you could even say Benvenuti because he was champ at light middle for a while.

???

[Sweet Pea]

Does it hurt his legacy that some of his biggest wins were over naturally smaller men moving up like Napoles and Griffith?. Maybe you could even say Benvenuti because he was champ at light middle for a while.

???Griffith and Benvenuti were more than proven enough at MW.

[WhataRock]

True...Plus Benvenuti was a bigger than average lightmiddle in the film Ive seen, he has to be almost 6ft.

[WhataRock]

Also anyone seen the first Monzon-Briscoe fight in Argentina? I didnt even realise they fought each other early on.

A draw in Argentina...hmmmm.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by WhataRock
Also anyone seen the first Monzon-Briscoe fight in Argentina? I didnt even realise they fought each other early on.

A draw in Argentina...hmmmm.
I've never seen it, but supposedly Monzon was lucky to get the draw.

It was before Monzon had reached his true prime though, and he very clearly won the rematch 5 years later.

[Sweet Pea]

If a fight was decided by less than 4 points in Argentina they were called draws, which explains the high amounts on certain Argentinian fighters like Monzon and Locche's resumes.

[WhataRock]

I've never seen it, but supposedly Monzon was lucky to get the draw.

It was before Monzon had reached his true prime though, and he very clearly won the rematch 5 years later.

Yes he certainly did. But thought that was interesting, whilst not being overly suprising as Briscoe has a very misleading record.

[Russell]

If a fight was decided by less than 4 points in Argentina they were called draws, which explains the high amounts on certain Argentinian fighters like Monzon and Locche's resumes.

You've really got to wonder if that ever inadvertently benefited both of them, though.

[Sweet Pea]

You've really got to wonder if that ever inadvertently benefited both of them, though.According to most accounts, it did just that in Locche's bout with Carlos Ortiz, which was called a draw but most who've seen it scored it clearly for Carlos. I'll give my thoughts on that one in due time.

[Russell]

Yeah, so I've heard too.

Just seems like a safety net for either fighter if they're having a lazy night or bad performance. Maybe both of them should have a few more losses on their records. Who knows.

[MRBILL]

F@#k.... "Duran & Castro" split a pair of fights in BOTH vatos' home countries of Argentina and Panama back in 1997... Funny how each guy got the nod in their OWN back-yard... Go figure? Anyway, BOTH were solid fights that gave the fans their money worth.... Peace...

MR.BILL

[john garfield]

May be able to settle -- once and for all-- with Amilcar Brusa, Monzon's only trainer, why Carlos didn't move up to Lt Hvy.

See Brusa at various gyms in L.A. (still works mostly with Argentine fighters) He's a gracious elder statesman -- very lucid and straight-forward.

[Fedor Em]

1. He was fighting tough competation at middleweight, and a crop of great welters moving up for good paydays.
2. Bob Foster
3. Monzon was an excellent fighter but lets face it he was lazy. I doubt he wanted to try and put on that extra muscle, keep what speed he had, and take the risk moving up we he was undoubtably the best in the world in his division.

[My dinner with Conteh]

May be able to settle -- once and for all-- with Amilcar Brusa, Monzon's only trainer, why Carlos didn't move up to Lt Hvy.

See Brusa at various gyms in L.A. (still works mostly with Argentine fighters) He's a gracious elder statesman -- very lucid and straight-forward.


That would be great. :good

[fists of fury]

If a fight was decided by less than 4 points in Argentina they were called draws

Very interesting. :good

[TBooze]

If a fight was decided by less than 4 points in Argentina they were called draws, which explains the high amounts on certain Argentinian fighters like Monzon and Locche's resumes.

And to a point that should always be the way. You should not be able to beat the champion unless you beat him convincingly. Titles are given away far too cheaply now a days, the champion should always have the benefit of any doubt.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Very poor post.

[Marciano Frazier]

Also anyone seen the first Monzon-Briscoe fight in Argentina? I didnt even realise they fought each other early on.

A draw in Argentina...hmmmm.
Notice Monzon has a ton of draws in South America on his early record. It was the standard in much of South America at the time that pretty much any fight that went the distance and wasn't really dominated by one guy or the other would be called a draw.

[Marciano Frazier]

Harry Greb and Mickey Walker would have fought him for better or worse.
True, and more power to them. But I don't think you can reasonably fault Monzon for sticking around and fighting the best in his own division.

[Sweet Pea]

And to a point that should always be the way. You should not be able to beat the champion unless you beat him convincingly. Titles are given away far too cheaply now a days, the champion should always have the benefit of any doubt.I disagree heartily.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I find myself disagreeing with all his posts. He thinks bouts should be won by the amount of magazine covers a fighter has appeared on.

[natonic]

I personally value dominating a division over moving up, even moreso now. There are a lot more John Ruiz's and Donnie Lalonde's running around now with titles to snatch. Monzon would have had to take out a Foster or a Conteh. Hagler had Spinks/Qawi. Plus there was no 168 to test the waters with. Anyone who suggests Monzon punked out by not moving up is off base.

[Mantequilla]

And to a point that should always be the way. You should not be able to beat the champion unless you beat him convincingly. Titles are given away far too cheaply now a days, the champion should always have the benefit of any doubt.

That's the kind of thinking that encourages typical hometown gift decisions.

If anything you should expect more from the damn champion than the challenger.

[Russell]

That's the kind of thinking that encourages typical hometown gift decisions.

If anything you should expect more from the damn champion than the challenger.

Yup. Exactly.

[Robbi]

And to a point that should always be the way. You should not be able to beat the champion unless you beat him convincingly. Titles are given away far too cheaply now a days, the champion should always have the benefit of any doubt.

:huh

[TBooze]

That's the kind of thinking that encourages typical hometown gift decisions.

If anything you should expect more from the damn champion than the challenger.

Well so be it, boxing used to be a high profile sport when it actually was a big deal if a champion lost. Now a days this silly wrestling UFC thing is more popular amongst the under 30s, in the long term that will lead to boxing becoming even less mainstream.

Why change something if it was not broken? We love to moan, and if we felt our local hero was robbed going to Europe or America we almost loved that more than when he won.

By default the boxing fancy are of the glass is half empty variety, thus we need to feel bitter to feel good.

Look at it like this, British boxing is going though its most successful period since the mid 19th century, and yet are us Brits happy? Hell no!!!!

Naseem was a bum; Hatton is a bum, Calzaghe is a bum and Amir is a level below a bum, and we all bemoan when British boxing was really great in the 80s and 90s; when we had Benn, Eubank, Bruno, Lewis and Graham.

Yet the truth is Eubank and Benn feasted on second rate opposition most of the time, ditto Bruno and we bitched back then that things were better in the 70s....;)

[TBooze]

I find myself disagreeing with all his posts. He thinks bouts should be won by the amount of magazine covers a fighter has appeared on.

To a point yes, the sport would be stronger for it.

[My dinner with Conteh]

To a point yes, the sport would be stronger for it.


So, you're complaining it could be like UFC but really you want more WWF.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yet the truth is Eubank and Benn feasted on second rate opposition most of the time, ditto Bruno and we bitched back then that things were better in the 70s....;)



Did we? When? Did you? :huh

[TBooze]

Did we? When? Did you? :huh

My Fathers generation did. They were aghast at what they thought was the softening of the sport with Eubank prancing into the ring, playing up being the gay icon and Benn with his sequined shorts, allegedly trying to be the hard man.

My old man thought boxing was for men, if you wanted to see a show you went to the theatre.

[TBooze]

So, you're complaining it could be like UFC but really you want more WWF.

Well kind of, I certainly do not think the sport would be harmed as a spectacle if the right man won most of the time. It certainly did not destroy the sport in the golden era of the mid 20th century where you needed as a fighter to be connected and sometimes that meant manipulating a few fights.

I personally think the problem is us on the Internet. Fighters with any talent now a days are studied from day one and they will make mistakes. Also promoters feel pressured into throwing them in out of their depth far too early and thus too many prospects go bust and that IMO does not help the sport.

I do not have a problem if a prospect fights 30 levels of perceived bums in three/four years if in the end it helps prepare the fighter for the big tests in the future.

[My dinner with Conteh]

My Fathers generation did. They were aghast at what they thought was the softening of the sport with Eubank prancing into the ring, playing up being the gay icon and Benn with his sequined shorts, allegedly trying to be the hard man.

My old man thought boxing was for men, if you wanted to see a show you went to the theatre.



But every generation is like this. The one before, the one before that, the one after, etc.

[Loewe]

Notice Monzon has a ton of draws in South America on his early record. It was the standard in much of South America at the time that pretty much any fight that went the distance and wasn't really dominated by one guy or the other would be called a draw.

Which is imo right. A fight should have a clear winner or no winner at all.

[TBooze]

But every generation is like this. The one before, the one before that, the one after, etc.

Which was my point; boxers in Britain are the best they have been for 150 years and yet many of us (me included), hark back to what we perceive is a better era.

[My dinner with Conteh]

What this has to do with the your original statment of the 'champ having the benefit of the doubt' I don't know. Ok, we'd moan regardles- whoopee shit. Basically, you want a world where if it meant most of boxing was fixed but it was the most popular sport that ever existed then it would all be 'tickety boo'. But you're on your own with that one.

[TBooze]

What this has to do with the your original statment of the 'champ having the benefit of the doubt' I don't know. Ok, we'd moan regardles- whoopee shit. Basically, you want a world where if it meant most of boxing was fixed but it was the most popular sport that ever existed then it would all be 'tickety boo'. But you're on your own with that one.

Darn straight! Although to be fair boxing was (in the 20th century) never the most popular sport of any era in Britain.;)