My New Top 10 P4p List !

[Bill Butcher]

Before I start, everyone should know a few things....

I have only included boxers that I have seen satisfactory footage of & I doubt anyone on ESB will agree with my list.

This list is based on... ability... primes... H2H... achievements.

Ive carefully thought this through & it was hard shit, so enjoy....


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Joe Louis
7. Julio cesar Chavez
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Roy Jones Jr
10 Floyd Mayweather


Ps. if doing a list yourselves, please refrain from using guys like Langford as there is hardly any footage, this is about boxers you have seen enough of, cheers.

:thumbsup

[TommyV]

There is plenty of footage of Langford. Probably as much as Pep, and you've included him. There's a fair bit of footage of Armstrong aswell, and that guy has to be in the top 4.

[McGrain]

There's enough footage of Langford to judge some of what was written about him, so I agree with Tommy. You should use a date rather than a footage rule, maybe...as for your list, it's not horrible at all, in my view. It's hard to understand the different weights you've lended to the various criteria - i'm unsure what it is that lends itself to Mayweather above Moore, for example - but it's not a travesty.

[Sweet Pea]

Neither of the last 4 deserve a place in the top 10 of all time IMO, particularly Mayweather and Chavez. Whitaker is arguably top 15, Jones arguably top 25. I have both Chavez and Mayweather outside of my top 35, though I could see the case for Chavez being inside it.

[Bokaj]

It looks like a good list. You're probably going to get some flack for having Ali, SRL and PBL so high, but it's nice you stick your chin out.

After all Ali has a resume to compete with the best of them and Leonard and Mayweather are both wonderfully complete and skilled fighters. Leonard's win over Benitez is right up there with the best perfomances I've ever seen, maybe the best.

[Sweet Pea]

Leonard's win over Benitez is right up there with the best perfomances I've ever seen, maybe the best.His best performance, no doubt. Truly showed his technical skills.

[Bokaj]

His best performance, no doubt. Truly showed his technical skills.

Yes, and then he turned into the predator. He first outboxed and then outpunched one of the best boxers of his era. Not many can claim that. And his body punching is so fantastically accomplished for a slickster like him.

[Dempsey1238]

No Armstrong?? There is about 7 or so fights out there on em, pretty easy to track down.

[Quick Cash]

Under the rules of the thread:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Joe Louis
9. Archie Moore
10.Sugar Ray Leonard

[MrMagic]

Not a nice attempt at a good list man.. not cool at all :-(

[butler08]

Before I start, everyone should know a few things....

I have only included boxers that I have seen satisfactory footage of & I doubt anyone on ESB will agree with my list.

This list is based on... ability... primes... H2H... achievements.

Ive carefully thought this through & it was hard shit, so enjoy....


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Joe Louis
7. Julio cesar Chavez
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Roy Jones Jr
10 Floyd Mayweather


Ps. if doing a list yourselves, please refrain from using guys like Langford as there is hardly any footage, this is about boxers you have seen enough of, cheers.

:thumbsup


you should consider :
Henry greb
benny leonard
jack dempsey
jack johnson
gene tunney
rocky marciano
julio cesar chavez
ray leonard
oscar de la hoya

[Adaptation]

Wheres Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong...

Sounds like you should do a 1960 and up p4p and do a Pre-1960 p4p.

[PowerPuncher]

Before I start, everyone should know a few things....

I have only included boxers that I have seen satisfactory footage of & I doubt anyone on ESB will agree with my list.

This list is based on... ability... primes... H2H... achievements.

Ive carefully thought this through & it was hard shit, so enjoy....


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Joe Louis
7. Julio cesar Chavez
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Roy Jones Jr
10 Floyd Mayweather


Ps. if doing a list yourselves, please refrain from using guys like Langford as there is hardly any footage, this is about boxers you have seen enough of, cheers.

:thumbsup

I like the fact you've had the balls to make your own list and not conform, I wouldn't put Chavez near my top 10 but I know hes 1 of your favourates.

Contary to what Classic posters tell you Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather are top10 P4P ATGs :yep

I would recommend watching Ezzard Charles as he isn't in your top 10 and his record and ring skills are some of the greatest ever. I've made a case for him to be the greatest ever in the past

[Bill Butcher]

Under the rules of the thread:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Joe Louis
9. Archie Moore
10.Sugar Ray Leonard

6 of the same guys as me, its went better than expected then. :D

I knew there was decent footage of Charles & Moore but unfortunately its vs guys like Walcott & Marciano that Ive seen them mostly.

I thought more or less 0 footage of Langford existed so didnt even bother trying & any footage of Armstrong Ive seen was grainy at best but I will make a point of doing a better search in the future.

I still think my list is ok, Jones was FOT 90s, FMJ should already have sealed likewise for the 00s & in Chavez & Whitaker they are certainly not duds to say the least so no disgrace having them either.

:thumbsup

[Bill Butcher]

I would recommend watching Ezzard Charles as he isn't in your top 10 and his record and ring skills are some of the greatest ever. I've made a case for him to be the greatest ever in the past

Noted :good

Anything that helps keep Floyd off my list is certainly worth a try :lol:

[janitor]

I knew there was decent footage of Charles & Moore but unfortunately its vs guys like Walcott & Marciano that Ive seen them mostly.

I thought more or less 0 footage of Langford existed so didnt even bother trying & any footage of Armstrong Ive seen was grainy at best but I will make a point of doing a better search in the future.


I will take your criteria to mean that a fighter is eligible if a number of his key fights are available on film.

By that criteria Henry Armstrong would be eligible, as others have said.

Mickey Walker should also meet the film requirments for a place.

Other fighters who would deserve consideration include Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Tommy Burns, Ezzard Charles, Arcie Moore, and Eder Joffre.

[Bill Butcher]

I dont doubt for a second that if/when I see good footage of some of these guys that you mention that they could very well make my list but its not as if there is a bad fighter on my list, some of them were either the best in an entire decade or the best ever in their weight class... & just about every one of them were no1 p4p at some point in their careers aswell as being multiple weight world champions.

I wasnt 100% comfortable putting FMJ & RJJ in the top 10 because they got on my nerves by putting money before big fights, fights that us fans badly craved but on sheer ability, they would hold there own vs anyone in their primes & were extremely dominant 95% of the time also.

Cheers !

[Bill Butcher]

Not a nice attempt at a good list man.. not cool at all :-(

Who would you have ?.... Both Klitschkos ?

Its not a list of approval, its a personal list of fighters that I have seen enough & know enough about.

It would be easy to hide in the crowd & say.....

SRR
Langford
Greb
Armstrong
B. Leonard
Gans
Pep
Moore
Duran
Charles

But Im not gonna kid myself, I havent seen enough of half these guys.

I like to see as much footage as possible + whatever else I read from non-televised fights, comfortable that I know their style well enough to judge their strengths & weaknesess etc.

I order new fights regularly but there is only so much you can buy every week or 2 but Youtube is ever-growing... so give me time.

;)

[prideofvbeach]

Before I start, everyone should know a few things....

I have only included boxers that I have seen satisfactory footage of & I doubt anyone on ESB will agree with my list.

This list is based on... ability... primes... H2H... achievements.

Ive carefully thought this through & it was hard shit, so enjoy....


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Joe Louis
7. Julio cesar Chavez
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Roy Jones Jr
10 Floyd Mayweather


Ps. if doing a list yourselves, please refrain from using guys like Langford as there is hardly any footage, this is about boxers you have seen enough of, cheers.

:thumbsup
Thanks for pointing this out. I am sick of people bitching about list choices of others.

[Robbi]

Its not a list of approval, its a personal list of fighters that I have seen enough & know enough about.



Thats what everyone is meant to do when making an ATG list. I do fully understand that some fighters, who are certs with others on here, have been left out of your top 10. It's not unfair that you have left them off your list. Lack of footage on certain fighters convinces you that a placement isn't warranted. So if you listed a certain fighter who you haven't seen, then the placing wouldn't be as concrete as the fighters you have seen. Reading respected opinions from 80-90 years ago is all to do with trust on their reports from ringside.

I haven't seen Ali-Norton III. So if someone asked me "who do you think won the fight?" I'd have to reply "I heard that Norton was the winner, but haven't see the fight for myself" I do believe that it was close and Norton probably deserved the decision. But obviously my opinion carries only the weight of other peoples opinions. My opinion would be solid if I viewed the fight for myself.

[Jear]

Wheres Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong...

Sounds like you should do a 1960 and up p4p and do a Pre-1960 p4p.



Seen a bit of footage of Greb have you?

[janitor]

Seen a bit of footage of Greb have you?

I have a full version of Greb Walker but I wont post it on youtube because it might reduce its value.

[Jbuz]

Haven't done a list for ages, because I haven't been on ESB for ages.

If we're going on accomplishments and reports etc, something like:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Archie Moore
9. Benny Leonard
10. Sam Langford

But if we use your criteria for available footage, and more for who I think was the best rather than who accomplished the most:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Roberto Duran
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Salvador Sanchez
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Roy Jones Jr.
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

It seems to be unpopular these days to rate Leonard high, but at his best he was just fantastic. Jones was pretty unproven compared to the others on the list, but his ability was always on display, he was something special. Sanchez is a strange one, because he seemed to fight to the level of his opponent. At his best, he is well deserving of this high ranking. I'm tempted to put Ali even higher, because I feel like at his best, nobody could touch him. But I can't bring myself to drop Duran, Pep or Robinson.

[Sweet Pea]

Noted :good

Anything that helps keep Floyd off my list is certainly worth a try :lol:I'd have figured you were a HUGE Floyd fan for having him in the top 10.

[Jear]

I have a full version of Greb Walker but I wont post it on youtube because it might reduce its value.



Not doubting Grebs standing but if the only footage of Buster Douglas available was his fight against Tyson then im sure that he would be described superlatively. The thread starter justified his list by including the statement that it was based on fighters he had seen 'sufficient' footage off, yet posters are critical of him leaving Greb off. Its a fair call in my book

[Nemesis]

I have only included boxers that I have seen satisfactory footage of
3. Willie Pep
surely you jest?

[Nemesis]

I have a full version of Greb Walker but I wont post it on youtube because it might reduce its value.:lol:

[Dempsey1238]

Still dont see why you guys rank Armstrong on film base.

I mean 7 fights, most are cyrstal clear, The Ambers and Ross fights are perhaps in the best shape, the Garcia fights also are in amazing shape. There in better shape than MOST 1950's fights I seen.

[Robbi]

Haven't done a list for ages, because I haven't been on ESB for ages.

If we're going on accomplishments and reports etc, something like:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Archie Moore
9. Benny Leonard
10. Sam Langford

But if we use your criteria for available footage, and more for who I think was the best rather than who accomplished the most:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Roberto Duran
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Salvador Sanchez
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Roy Jones Jr.
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

It seems to be unpopular these days to rate Leonard high, but at his best he was just fantastic. Jones was pretty unproven compared to the others on the list, but his ability was always on display, he was something special. Sanchez is a strange one, because he seemed to fight to the level of his opponent. At his best, he is well deserving of this high ranking. I'm tempted to put Ali even higher, because I feel like at his best, nobody could touch him. But I can't bring myself to drop Duran, Pep or Robinson.

There is a lot of footage of Duran and Ali. So the footage enhances the placing of them both with anyone, no matter where they are placed. As well as longevity, statistics, accomplishments, and reports and opinions on them both.

However, someone like Greb being placed within the top 10 doesn't have much credibility about it. Sounds stupid, considering his resume and all the litrature that can be accounted for. No question about it that someone like Greb getting placed, say within the top 5, is being given 'the benefit of the doubt'.

It's not an even playing field.

Lets say someone hasn't watched boxing ever in their life. The person only reads others opinions, goes to the library to obtain books, reads countless online articles, and gives his top 20 of all-time. At least he's on an even playing field. Although he might have read more about certain fighters than others.

[Bill Butcher]

surely you jest?

Nope, not at all.

After reading so much about Pep in his younger days then seeing him NOT FAR past his peak, I knew exactly what people meant when they called him the best defensive boxer or the greatest ever FWT.
Its clear on film that his boxing skills were sublime, the best pure boxing skills ever IMO.

:thumbsup

[Bill Butcher]

I'd have figured you were a HUGE Floyd fan for having him in the top 10.

No, I dont like the guy, I always cheer for his opponent but there is no denying that he has been the outstanding boxer of this decade.

He won the WBC in 5 different weights & only ever had 2 close calls vs Castillo I (avenged if you like) & DLH who was the biggest man he ever fought at his highest ever weight.

As I say, the 1st criteria I listed was for ability, its undeniable that his boxing ability is on an ATG level.

Floyd would severely test even Whitaker in a boxing contest.


:thumbsup

[SuzieQ49]

Contary to what Classic posters tell you Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather are top10 P4P ATGs

LOL

so mayweather winning a split decision over a 34 year old far past his prime inactive oscar de la hoya is what u call top 10 p4p greatness?

[Loewe]

Contary to what Classic posters tell you Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather are top10 P4P ATGs :yep

That is just soo wrong. :patsch


I still think my list is ok, Jones was FOT 90s, FMJ should already have sealed likewise for the 00s & in Chavez & Whitaker they are certainly not duds to say the least so no disgrace having them either.
Whitaker was better than Jones in the 90s and Hopkins, Pac and even Calzaghe could rival PBFs in the 00s.


Lets say someone hasn't watched boxing ever in their life. The person only reads others opinions, goes to the library to obtain books, reads countless online articles, and gives his top 20 of all-time. At least he's on an even playing field. Although he might have read more about certain fighters than others.

Actually, I think this list would be better than most others because it would be less subjective.

[Loewe]

delete pls.