Marvin Hagler vs Roy Jones - catchweight of 164lbs

[Bill Butcher]

Jones struggled a bit with 160 & was at his best at 168, Marv was perfectly suited to 160 so he can come in as normal without the added worry of not making the MWT limit.

I can see a terrific clash of styles with MMH taking everything RJJ can throw & punishing him on the ropes throughout but Jones speed & outside game enable him to take this one by close UD IMO.

Jones W12 Hagler

What do you guys think ?

[PowerPuncher]

Jones wins 9 rounds to 3. Hagler's predicatable defense will make it easy for Jones to tee off pot shots on him, and get out before Hagler can counter. Hagler's strength and chin keep him in it, and he would cause problems with pressure and his own jab and 1-2, and his bodywork. But for the main part Hagler is getting a boxing lesson here and having problems landing.

Having said this, Hagler hasn't faced a puncher of Jones magnitude, neither has he faced someone that will tag him as cleanly and frequently. Its a possibility Hagler gets stopped, Jones destroyed some very very durable fighters

[McGrain]

Jones wins 9 rounds to 3.

:lol: :good

I agree though, maybe not that wide a margin, but a Jones win at anything above 160.

How about peak Hagler v MW Jones, still the same pick?

[Minotauro]

At this weight I would pick Jones via decision, like 8-4.

[PowerPuncher]

:lol: :good

I agree though, maybe not that wide a margin, but a Jones win at anything above 160.

How about peak Hagler v MW Jones, still the same pick?

You knew it was coming, but you couldn't stop it, much like a leaping left hook from Jones :lol:

Jones wins at 160 too, he's still the same fighter. As long as Jones isn't dead at the weight, which he shouldn't be considering he's an ex 154lber as a 20yo, if hes slightly tight at the weight give hagler an extra round or 2

Jones was probably a bit tight against Tate, who he ko'd in 2 and had just gone 12 with Julian Jackson:

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Other Jones 160 fights

Wolfe (who a year before went 12 with Toney)

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3 Months after beating Hopkins at 165 against Nigel BEnn conquerer Malinga

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[McGrain]

All true - won't view this footage now as I seem to have been drawn into some fucking thing in the lounge of all places - but for now, I will just say a couple of things

1 - I always felt Jones literally looked a better fighter at 168 - I believe his camp was geared more towards sharpening skills rather than weight making

2 - The move up was timed beautifully. His body liked the extra weight in my view, he got a good bit bigger to my eye. In other words he holds a serious size advantge anywhere over 160

3 - He IS pretty green at 160

As you can probably guess, I lean towards Hagler at the weight, yes I do believe a few pounds can make that much difference.

[JohnThomas1]

Jones about 8-4 for me.

[KCD]

Jones via UD.....8-4 or 9-3

[Rise Above]

Jones wins this one fairly easily.

[Sweet Pea]

Why does it have to be at a catchweight? Jones was just fine at 160, there were no struggles or issues with weight unlike any other champion who cuts, which is all of them. He moved up because he fit higher weights as well, not because 160 was a particularly painful struggle that negatively affected his performance. Hagler on the other hand never fought above 160, and even came in under the limit at times.

What does 4 pounds matter, honestly? Are we insinuating that Jones would be in between the effectiveness he showed at 160 and 168? That's pretty absurd the way I see it, and it makes no real difference at 160 aside from being a possible detriment to Hagler any higher, though I doubt 4 pounds would be that big an issue, as much as people like to make it out to be.

At MW I consider it basically a 50/50 matchup.

[Sweet Pea]

Jones wins this one fairly easily.No.

[Dave's Top Ten]

Jones wins this one fairly easily.

Although Jones was a tremendous talent, and arguably has a slight edge above 160, I just don't think any middleweight or supermiddleweight in history beats Hagler "fairly easily". That's just too dismissive of a definite top 5 middle of all time.

[Bill Butcher]

Jones was good at 160 but he DID look really tight at the weight to me & it showed when he stepped up to his best weight (168)

I could have made the fight at 160 & anyone posting can make their own fight at 160, its not a problem.

The main reasons for the 164 catchweight was to get the best of Jones vs he best of MMH.... & when you consider that MMH never fought above 160, it would be unfair to ask him to fight Roy at 168 because Roy could weigh in right on that limit & size could be the MAIN reason of victory should Roy win.
164 would keep him down just enough although he technically would still be the bigger man.
160, 164 or 168 wont matter for Hagler too much himself as he will be coming in at his best fighting weight regardless.
168 gives Roy too much advantage & IMO 160 keeps him too far from his prime weight to put him in their vs arguably the best MWT ever.

The Jones that beat Hopkins would lose to prime Hagler IMO, he was too tight at the weight.

Anyway - In their primes, at a 164 catchweight (where Roy feels ok)....

RJJ UD 8-4 Hagler... tough fight tho, but speed + a little size kills.

[natonic]

Although Jones was a tremendous talent, and arguably has a slight edge above 160, I just don't think any middleweight or supermiddleweight in history beats Hagler "fairly easily". That's just too dismissive of a definite top 5 middle of all time.

Amen. Nobody ever beat Hagler fairly easily so I don't know how you could speculate anybody would.

[Sweet Pea]

The Jones that beat Hopkins would lose to prime Hagler IMO, he was too tight at the weight.Yes, but if that Jones is your entire perception of a MW Jones you need to watch more footage. That was a relatively green Jones tight for his first ever shot at a world title, not near his prime which he'd reach later in his MW reign into SMW. His fight with Toney was his first as a 168 pounder, and it's often considered his best performance. Are we really to believe he really only reached his peak at 168 considering that was just after his MW run?

[werety]

Why does it have to be at a catchweight? Jones was just fine at 160, there were no struggles or issues with weight unlike any other champion who cuts, which is all of them. He moved up because he fit higher weights as well, not because 160 was a particularly painful struggle that negatively affected his performance. Hagler on the other hand never fought above 160, and even came in under the limit at times.

What does 4 pounds matter, honestly? Are we insinuating that Jones would be in between the effectiveness he showed at 160 and 168? That's pretty absurd the way I see it, and it makes no real difference at 160 aside from being a possible detriment to Hagler any higher, though I doubt 4 pounds would be that big an issue, as much as people like to make it out to be.

At MW I consider it basically a 50/50 matchup.

Curious sweat pea, how do you see a 50/50 matchup with Jones and Hagler? I feel like Jones has most of the sylistic advantages in this fight.

[WhataRock]

Plus Roy seemed to have an injured hand in the Hops fight. He didnt win it one-handed like he claims but he didnt have his usual two handed attack.

I dont see why it has the be at a catchweight, that may actually be an advantage to Roy but then again probably not much if any.

I think Roy takes it, and dare I say he wins a wide decision. But not because he dominates, just he edges most rounds over Hagler and in the wash he ends up taking it 9 to 3 or 10 to 2..something like that. Roy before he hit light heavy was more focused on winning convincingly rather then clowing, which I would hope he wouldnt do against Hagler because frankly it could spell disaster.

Out of 10 fights I say Roy takes it 7 times....Tough fight for him but speed kills, I think he catches Marvin enough to take the points verdict.

[prideofvbeach]

Hagler definitely. Jones was great, but Hagler was legendary. Only lost close decisions or drew, and they were controversial (Leonard anyone?) Hagler catches Jones hard when RJJ is playing MR. SLICK and is KOed early.

[Sweet Pea]

Curious sweat pea, how do you see a 50/50 matchup with Jones and Hagler? I feel like Jones has most of the sylistic advantages in this fight.I think if Hagler were to go into killer mode (as he'd proven the ability to even prior to his late career decline) and try to press Jones he'd have the advantage in that he'd be able to work his way in and would have a better chance than any other Jones opponent to really hurt Jones. I also think Hagler was a better pure boxer than anyone Jones faced, and his own accuracy would see Jones tagged more often than we'd be used to. It could still go Jones's way if he's able to stay on the bike, but I see it as pretty even odds.

[Bill Butcher]

Yes, but if that Jones is your entire perception of a MW Jones you need to watch more footage. That was a relatively green Jones tight for his first ever shot at a world title, not near his prime which he'd reach later in his MW reign into SMW. His fight with Toney was his first as a 168 pounder, and it's often considered his best performance. Are we really to believe he really only reached his peak at 168 considering that was just after his MW run?

Fair points

Im not saying Jones was bad at MWT, he was GREAT but the Hopkins fight sticks in my mind because he was the best guy Roy fought at the weight & who`s to say that if he fought guys like Hopkins in his earlier MWT fights it would have went any different, maybe he was always a bit tight but with Bernard being a good opponent it showed a bit because vs Toney & indeed for virtually all of his SMWT reign he looked far more comfortable.

:thumbsup

[fists of fury]

Hagler would have to be really aggressive in this fight. He'd need to force the issue like he did against Hearns, imo.

If he stands back and boxes Jones, he gets beaten to the punch all night long and basically outsped. Jones will pot shot him to death.

In fighting aggressively, Hagler will have to place faith in that cement-like chin of his, because Jones was a puncher at the weight and he had the handspeed to catch Marvin coming in.
I have no doubt Hagler will get hit when forcing the issue, but at the same time forcing Jones on the defensive and getting him out of his comfort zone is the only realistic way I can see Hagler winning this fight.

He'd have to back Jones up, cut off the ring and apply sustained pressure. Marvin have to be willing to mix it, even if it means taking two to land one initially.
In a straight up war, I'd pick Hagler to prevail. Despite Jones' speed and power I think Hagler's chin would survive. Can Jones' chin if Hagler starts getting to him? I don't think so.
So for me, Hagler needs to force Jones into a fight. If he can, I pick him via stoppage in 8 or 9 rounds.

If he stands outside and tries to box with Jones, he loses by UD.

[Senya13]

Fighting off the ropes was Jones' comfort zone since the amateur days.

[fists of fury]

I know, but I don't neccesarily mean forcing Jones against the ropes all the time and allowing him to sit back and put the 'earmuffs' on. He's got to force Jones to fight back and he has to go downstairs when in close.

[natonic]

Jones never fought anybody who could cut off the ring like Hagler. Was he ever in a war? How would he perform? We found that Jones chin was suspect at 175. Did he ever get hit like Hagler would hit him at 160/64? Hagler by stoppage over 15. I'll give Jones a close decision over 12.

[butler08]

roy jones all the way at any point in his career at any weight

[Senya13]

Hagler may decide to cut off the ring, and will end up with Jones on the ropes, which is exactly what Roy will want, he feels like a fish in the water on the ropes. Only a fool can think it would give Hagler an advantage if he can keep trapping Jones on the ropes. On the contrary, that way he'll be mostly pounding Jones' gloves and receiving lots of short sharp counters to the head and to the body in return.

[fists of fury]

...So you're saying poor old Hagler is screwed, no matter what. Is that it?

[Senya13]

Very defensive counter-punchers had the most success (relative that is) vs. Jones. Hagler would have to make Jones come to him, then he may have a small chance. I'm speaking about opponents of more or less same size with Jones, not a heavyweight who can attempt to smash Jones even through the block.

[SuzieQ49]

I am a huge roy jones fan at 160lb and feel h2h he may be top 3 ever at this weight........but jeez roy jones nuthuggers like senya and powerpuncher are making it extremley hard for me to defend jones and like him with there ridiculous godly worship there spouting

[natonic]

Hagler would punish Jones on the ropes. I don't mind being called a fool by someone who considers Thulane Malinga remotely in the same league as Gene Fullmer. Hagler is miles beyond anyone Jones ever fought at that weight, including a pre-prime Hopkins. It's quite telling that he's wanted no part of Hopkins since.

[fists of fury]

Very defensive counter-punchers had the most success (relative that is) vs. Jones. Hagler would have to make Jones come to him, then he may have a small chance.

Perhaps that is so, but that perception holds true simply because so few were able to take Jones out of his comfort zone. If Hagler comes out like he did against Hearns, I honestly can't see Roy controlling the action as per his usual way.

He'd be force into engaging more than he'd like, and this is something we've never really seen before as Jones has always controlled the pace in his fights.
How does he react? How does he respond? Those are interesting questions, imo.

[PaddyD1983]

Although Jones was a tremendous talent, and arguably has a slight edge above 160, I just don't think any middleweight or supermiddleweight in history beats Hagler "fairly easily". That's just too dismissive of a definite top 5 middle of all time.

:good

[Senya13]

Watch Jones vs Sosa, who was more powerful than Hagler and had a chin at least as good as Hagler. I don't know many fighters around this weight who could press Jones "harder" than how Sosa did in that fight. Hagler won't be able to land to the head at all, and when he switches to the body, he'll regret doing that very quickly when he gets smashed the same way Hearns did to him, but not by one punch (resulting in hand injury for Hearns), but by a series of punches as hard and even more precise than Hearns'.

[PowerPuncher]

1. Hagler would punish Jones on the ropes. I don't mind being called a fool by someone who considers Thulane Malinga remotely in the same league as Gene Fullmer.

2. Hagler is miles beyond anyone Jones ever fought at that weight, including a pre-prime Hopkins. It's quite telling that he's wanted no part of Hopkins since.

1. Many consider Nigel Benn a better version of Fullmer and Malinga outboxed him twice, Malinga outboxed Eubank too. These are 2 locks for the HOF

2. Yes Jones never wanted any part of Hopkins thats why he offered him 40% of the purse while bohe was P4P no1 and BHOPs had no big fights and would fight for around 100k in his next fight

He also offered to fight 40-40 and the winner picks up the remainding 20% after he lost and Hopkins had no big fights, Hopkins turned him down

Yes running to the hills :lol:

[Dave's Top Ten]

Watch Jones vs Sosa, who was more powerful than Hagler and had a chin at least as good as Hagler. I don't know many fighters around this weight who could press Jones "harder" than how Sosa did in that fight. Hagler won't be able to land to the head at all, and when he switches to the body, he'll regret doing that very quickly when he gets smashed the same way Hearns did to him, but not by one punch (resulting in hand injury for Hearns), but by a series of punches as hard and even more precise than Hearns'.


Yeah, very appropriate to compare Hagler to Sosa. :patsch
Senya, I like to stay civlized on this board, but dude, you are an idiot.

[Senya13]

Sure, it's not very appropriate by looking at how outstanding Hagler's defense was when he was putting Leonard to the ropes, how he avoided every punch in Leonard's flurry. Or the way he defended himself by making Hearns break his hand on his face was a case of simply amazing defensive ability. Or, say, the way he defended himself vs Mugabi, Marvin would come out completely clean-faced if his cornermen weren't beating him up between the rounds while the cameraman wasn't watching, Mugabi couldn't land a single punch on Hagler the whole fight.

[Dave's Top Ten]

Sure, it's not very appropriate by looking at how outstanding Hagler's defense was when he was putting Leonard to the ropes, how he avoided every punch in Leonard's flurry. Or the way he defended himself by making Hearns break his hand on his face was a case of simply amazing defensive ability. Or, say, the way he defended himself vs Mugabi, Marvin would come out completely clean-faced if his cornermen weren't beating him up between the rounds while the cameraman wasn't watching, Mugabi couldn't land a single punch on Hagler the whole fight.

...and very inappropriate you chose Hagler's final three fights of his career, when he was clearly past his best, and defensive boxing was long behind him. Idiocy confirmed. :hi:

[Senya13]

Sure, every boxer continues to use the skills he learned during his career to last longer, only Hagler was an exception who forgot how to defend himself after he turned 30 years old.

[fists of fury]

Sure, every boxer continues to use the skills he learned during his career to last longer, only Hagler was an exception who forgot how to defend himself after he turned 30 years old.

Nope. That would be Roy.

[Minotauro]

Watch Jones vs Sosa, who was more powerful than Hagler and had a chin at least as good as Hagler. I don't know many fighters around this weight who could press Jones "harder" than how Sosa did in that fight. Hagler won't be able to land to the head at all, and when he switches to the body, he'll regret doing that very quickly when he gets smashed the same way Hearns did to him, but not by one punch (resulting in hand injury for Hearns), but by a series of punches as hard and even more precise than Hearns'.

Hagler was much better then Sosa who was journeyman and Hagler had one of the best chin p4p ever he could take a huge hit and be totally unfazed. His chin is on the very highest level with the likes of LaMotta. If you want to compare Hagler's chin to any Jones opponent make it Toney not Sosa a guy that got ko'd by James Butler.

[werety]

Watch Jones vs Sosa, who was more powerful than Hagler and had a chin at least as good as Hagler. I don't know many fighters around this weight who could press Jones "harder" than how Sosa did in that fight. Hagler won't be able to land to the head at all, and when he switches to the body, he'll regret doing that very quickly when he gets smashed the same way Hearns did to him, but not by one punch (resulting in hand injury for Hearns), but by a series of punches as hard and even more precise than Hearns'.
How can you possibly say that Jones' chin is at least as good as Hagler's. That's just ridiculous.

[Dave's Top Ten]

Nope. That would be Roy.

:thumbsup

[Holmes' Jab]

Jones Jr UD. Closer than his fight against Hopkins was. I reckon he'd win by a margin of about 3 rounds over 12.

[Doppleganger]

Having said this, Hagler hasn't faced a puncher of Jones magnitude, neither has he faced someone that will tag him as cleanly and frequently. Its a possibility Hagler gets stopped, Jones destroyed some very very durable fighters I had to check the date when I read this in case it was April 1st. Are you serious mate? You don't consider Eugene Hart, Thomas Hearns or John Mugabi to be punchers of the same magnitude as RJJ?, not mention other punchers such as Fulgencio Obelmejias, Tony Sibson etc. I find that statement slightly ridiculious and I believe that no-one is knocking out Hagler at any weight near 160lbs.

I fimrly believe that RJJ wins the fight on points, but it won't be as wide as some are making out and it certainly won't be by stoppage.

[Robbi]

I had to check the date when I read this in case it was April 1st. Are you serious mate? You don't consider Eugene Hart, Thomas Hearns or John Mugabi to be punchers of the same magnitude as RJJ?, not mention other punchers such as Fulgencio Obelmejias, Tony Sibson etc. I find that statement slightly ridiculious and I believe that no-one is knocking out Hagler at any weight near 160lbs.

I fimrly believe that RJJ wins the fight on points, but it won't be as wide as some are making out and it certainly won't be by stoppage.

Where have you been hiding recently?

[natonic]

Yeah, very appropriate to compare Hagler to Sosa. :patsch
Senya, I like to stay civlized on this board, but dude, you are an idiot.

bump.

[PowerPuncher]

I had to check the date when I read this in case it was April 1st. Are you serious mate? You don't consider Eugene Hart, Thomas Hearns or John Mugabi to be punchers of the same magnitude as RJJ?, not mention other punchers such as Fulgencio Obelmejias, Tony Sibson etc. I find that statement slightly ridiculious and I believe that no-one is knocking out Hagler at any weight near 160lbs.

I fimrly believe that RJJ wins the fight on points, but it won't be as wide as some are making out and it certainly won't be by stoppage.



Have you not seen RJJ's KO wins at MW and 168? How many times do I have to post up his comparable power to Hearns, Julian Jackson, Toney, Eubank and Benn at comparable weights.



RJJ took out common opponents in 1-4 rounds that the above went the distance with.



Jones is the best offensive fighter at 160-168 - Hearns, Hart, J Mugabi aren't in the same league

[Holmes' Jab]

I fimrly believe that RJJ wins the fight on points, but it won't be as wide as some are making out and it certainly won't be by stoppage.


I agree.

[Senya13]

Hagler was much better then Sosa who was journeyman and Hagler had one of the best chin p4p ever he could take a huge hit and be totally unfazed. His chin is on the very highest level with the likes of LaMotta. If you want to compare Hagler's chin to any Jones opponent make it Toney not Sosa a guy that got ko'd by James Butler.
Sosa jumped at Jones and refused to get off him, something you won't see from tentative ponderous Hagler, even vs Hearns he wasn't as aggressive as Sosa was.
As for the chin, Sosa had considerably worse defensive skills than Hagler and was in wars where his chin was tested much more (quantity-wise) than Hagler's ever been tested (including the Mugabi bout). Hagler would have to go to war with Briscoe or somebody like that to prove his chin to the same degree as Sosa did, but the Marvelous one was conscious enough not to do that, because he knew he'd get stopped if he had gone to war with Briscoe.

[Doppleganger]

Have you not seen RJJ's KO wins at MW and 168? How many times do I have to post up his comparable power to Hearns, Julian Jackson, Toney, Eubank and Benn at comparable weights.



RJJ took out common opponents in 1-4 rounds that the above went the distance with.



Jones is the best offensive fighter at 160-168 - Hearns, Hart, J Mugabi aren't in the same league Yeah I've seen his KO wins and I still disagree with what you say. Which common opponents exactly? RJJ couldn't stop Fermin Chirno yet Nigel Benn destroyed him in 2 rounds. By the same token RJJ stopped Malinga where Benn couldn't.

So what does that prove? Not much but it certainly doesn't suggest that RJJ has power of a different magnitude.

[Doppleganger]

Where have you been hiding recently?
I've been around mate, here and there. :p

[Sweet Pea]

Senya doesn't even believe himself when he posts, he's just trying to stir up controversy like usual. PowerPuncher is basically his apprentice.

[werety]

Senya doesn't even believe himself when he posts, he's just trying to stir up controversy like usual. PowerPuncher is basically his apprentice.
I think redrooster and I Am Legend fit in to this bunch of people who basically just try stir up stuff too.

[round15]

Wow! Lots of posters in this thread thinking Jones Jr beats Hagler easy at a catch weight. I'm wondering if these conclusions are based on the results of watching Leonard vs Hagler and using that fight as a platform in justifying RJJ beating Hagler. Hagler wasn't motivated or at his best against Leonard and I'll say that if it was a scheduled 15 round fight that Hagler wanted, he probably knocks Leonard out in the 13th or 14th. There's no questioning the solid performance Leonard showed that night but he got everything he wanted in the contract to fight Hagler

I have to disagree and say Hagler possibly KO's Jones Jr late or perhaps wins a unanimous decision. Jones was fast but one poster mentioned it earlier in this thread that Jones never faced a fighter that could cut off the ring and pressure him like Hagler. Glen Johnson did a very good job cutting off the ring and beating Jones, but Hagler is a much more technically sound fighter than Johnson and he also brings the southpaw factor into this fight.

Anyone who think Jones Jr knocks Hagler out early needs to seriously revisit Hagler's career well before the Leonard and Hearns fights before making that kind of conclusion.

[crippet]

I think Hagler wont expect to outbox Jones, like I dont think he expected to outbox Hearns and so he will be all out attack straight away.
If he can take Hearns punches he can take Jones' punches. Can Jones evade an all out attack from someone of the quality of Hagler?
I dont think so - I think Hagler takes this by KO after some rip roaring non stop action..

[Beouche]

Marvin's shattering Jones' glass